Appendix Carry Fundamentals

[Amp]

IDPA National Champion Mike Seeklander covers all of the fundamentals, benefits, and disadvantages of the Inside Waistband Appendix Carry (AIWB) position.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1QTAmE-R1w

[EMC]

Don't carry those cheap striker pistols appendix or you'll die! Use our pistol from wilson combat that was "made for appendix carry" [emoji1787]

[Prdator]

Mike is one of the better instructors on the market today!! he actually understands AIWB carry unlike so many "BTDT" instructors... Id highly recommend his training.

[willie]

I know only one guy who blew off his nuts when using appendix carry so I won't generalize from a sample of 1.

[voodoo_man]

"strongly consider carrying a gun with a manual safety"

*looks at who sponsored the video*

"yep."

*turns off video*

[Prdator]

"strongly consider carrying a gun with a manual safety"

*looks at who sponsored the video*

"yep."

*turns off video*

Wow.... through the baby out with the bathwater hmm... Sad deal.

[Artemas2]

"strongly consider carrying a gun with a manual safety"

*looks at who sponsored the video*

"yep."

*turns off video*


Regardless of who made the video, the points are valid and many of them align closely to some of Todd's thoughts on the matter.
It's not like anyone felt the need to make a gadget of some kind to help with the safety aspect of some striker fired guns:rolleyes:

[boing]

He makes solid points, except for suggesting that the margin of error for appendix with a DA pistol comes from the long, heavy trigger pull. No mention of thumbing the hammer during reholstering.

[voodoo_man]

Regardless of who made the video, the points are valid and many of them align closely to some of Todd's thoughts on the matter.
It's not like anyone felt the need to make a gadget of some kind to help with the safety aspect of some striker fired guns:rolleyes:

Glocks not coming with an SCD originally was a development oversight and not something that was derived from or for appendix carry specifically. Those who developed the SCD did so because Glock failed to do so and they found an excellent opportunity to make an absolutely required modification, which should have been OEM.

Beyond that, people have carried Glocks and other striker fired pistols AIWB for decades before this video came. Both professionally, and recreationally, and self inflicted gunshots wounds could exclusively be attributed to improper gun handling and training.

[RJ]

I know only one guy who blew off his nuts when using appendix carry so I won't generalize from a sample of 1.

Well technically a sample of 2. :cool:

On topic: Video was useful but I did not find much new over what I’ve learned here on AIWB over the years. Much respect to Mr. Seeklander’s Service and status as a USPSA GM.

I do (or did) carry briefly AIWB before concluding it was not for me. I now use a RCS Perun AOWB. I’m in between Glocks but my old G26 (sold) and new G43X (future purchase) had/will have Striker Control Devices by Tau Development Group.

‘As a noob’ the concept of holstering a Glock gave me pause. And in fact the availability of the Gen 5 SCD was the final factor in purchasing a Gen 5 Glock a few years ago. I would most probably not have sold my HK P30SK LEM, absent the SCD.




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[Clusterfrack]

Mike is a great instructor, but carrying a Wilson 1911 isn’t the answer. If someone can’t safely holster a Glock, they should strongly consider more training.

[blues]

Mike is a great instructor, but carrying a Wilson 1911 isn’t the answer. If someone can’t safely holster a Glock, they should strongly consider more training.

I've been carrying Glocks appendix style since the late 80's and never realized that it was missing anything until Tom came out with the "gadget". Now I wouldn't be without one despite never having come close to a ND over those ~30 years on or off the job.

I realize Wilson's gonna Wilson but nonetheless, what is true is true. What is not...is not. It's okay to be discriminating as regards what one takes as gospel.

[YVK]

I've watched that video with a Glock 48 in AIWB, yet I don't have much disagreement with him.

If the industry made something like 48 and 19 sizes, but DA/SA with a good optic interface, my Glocks would have been a history.

[Clusterfrack]

I've watched that video with a Glock 48 in AIWB, yet I don't have much disagreement with him.
.

I watched it with a P-07 AIWB. With a decocker, no thumb safety.

[wvincent]

Mike is a great instructor, but carrying a Wilson 1911 isn’t the answer. If someone can’t safely holster a Glock, they should strongly consider more training.

We could parse this thread down to just the above quote. Most excellent answer.
AIWB, and gun saftery in general is a software issue.
Safeties, SCD's and such are just hardware backups to software failures.

Kind of how most AD's, when cut down to the bone of it, are usually an ND, due to not following the simple rules.

[ranger]

Bonus points to S&W M&P 2.0 Compact with thumb safety for AIWB?

[BehindBlueI's]

The only nitpicks I have are no mention of thumbing the holster on a revolver/DA gun and the assumption the fight is over if you are reholstering. That's not always the case, as I've mentioned before. I had another encounter that illustrated that point not too long ago. In a nutshell, meth fueled guy with a large knife at a "cover but don't shoot yet" distance, charges, throws the knife and is now empty hands, but still closing. Sometimes you do need to get the gun out of your hand quick.

Otherwise, I pretty much agree. I also agree with the comments that training/software issues lead to NDs. However I'm not perfect and can screw something up. I'd much rather have another layer of safety for appendix carry even if it isn't strictly required.

[Redhat]

The only nitpicks I have are no mention of thumbing the holster on a revolver/DA gun and the assumption the fight is over if you are reholstering. That's not always the case, as I've mentioned before. I had another encounter that illustrated that point not too long ago. In a nutshell, meth fueled guy with a large knife at a "cover but don't shoot yet" distance, charges, throws the knife and is now empty hands, but still closing. Sometimes you do need to get the gun out of your hand quick.

Otherwise, I pretty much agree. I also agree with the comments that training/software issues lead to NDs. However I'm not perfect and can screw something up. I'd much rather have another layer of safety for appendix carry even if it isn't strictly required.

So would you rather have to do that with an AIWB holster or one mounted elsewhere?

[BehindBlueI's]

So would you rather have to do that with an AIWB holster or one mounted elsewhere?

Personally? I'd rather have strong side carry in a manner I can clear concealment, if required, one handed and while bladed from the aggressor.

The vast majority of the time you'll have the luxury of "looking the gun into the holster", pelvis thrusting as required. However that's not the same as always, so mostly what I take issue with is the blanket statement the fight is over if you are holstering.

[corneileous]

So how would a compact Beretta storm px4 that’s been converted to decocker only make as an appendix carry pistol? It used to have a manual thumb safety but not no more. Lol. It’s safety now is the long 10-pound pull DA trigger when not cocked.


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[Andy in NH]

Does anyone have a good technique for re holstering AIWB support hand only?

[BehindBlueI's]

So how would a compact Beretta storm px4 that’s been converted to decocker only make as an appendix carry pistol? It used to have a manual thumb safety but not no more. Lol. It’s safety now is the long 10-pound pull DA trigger when not cocked.


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With an external hammer you can put your thumb over the hammer as you holster. It will make the trigger harder to pull and you should feel the hammer moving and have time to react to something obstructing the holster prior to discharging the pistol.

[corneileous]

With an external hammer you can put your thumb over the hammer as you holster. It will make the trigger harder to pull and you should feel the hammer moving and have time to react to something obstructing the holster prior to discharging the pistol.

Hmm.

But how comfortable-wise is appendix carry? I thought the video did a good job explaining the better draw and concealment but how comfortable is it having a gun there? I used to IWB carry at right-side 4-5 o’clock but it just got too uncomfortable sitting in a truck seat all day and this was even with a little single-stack 9mm LC9S Ruger in a crossbreed holster but it’s just too uncomfortable anymore.


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[JSGlock34]

So how would a compact Beretta storm px4 that’s been converted to decocker only make as an appendix carry pistol? It used to have a manual thumb safety but not no more. Lol. It’s safety now is the long 10-pound pull DA trigger when not cocked.

Probably the most comprehensive and influential PX4 documentation available anywhere are the threads on this forum started by Ernest Langdon. He carried both the PX4 and PX4 Compact in the appendix position extensively during his testing and product development. Links below.

The PX4 Compact might be my DA/SA Glock 19
(https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?16519-The-PX4-Compact-might-be-my-DA-SA-Glock-19)
Beretta PX4 Storm - Underrated is an Understatement!
(https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?25341-Beretta-PX4-Storm-Underrated-is-an-Understatement!)

And there's no reason to have a 10 pound trigger pull in DA mode with the current options available for the PX4.

[Jay Cunningham]

Does anyone have a good technique for re holstering AIWB support hand only?


Be careful.

Drills place perceived time pressure on shooters.

Don’t engage in risky behavior. Holster deliberately.

[WobblyPossum]

Hmm.

But how comfortable-wise is appendix carry? I thought the video did a good job explaining the better draw and concealment but how comfortable is it having a gun there? I used to IWB carry at right-side 4-5 o’clock but it just got too uncomfortable sitting in a truck seat all day and this was even with a little single-stack 9mm LC9S Ruger in a crossbreed holster but it’s just too uncomfortable anymore.


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That’s subjective and depends on the individual, the gun, and the holster. I can tell you that I’ve done two 15 hour road trips carrying a Glock 19 in a Glock 17 holster and was plenty comfortable. I currently carry a gun and holster combination that’s slightly larger and spend a lot of my time at work sitting, either in a vehicle or at a desk and don’t have any comfort issues.

[Prdator]

Does anyone have a good technique for re holstering AIWB support hand only?

Yes, the thumb will hook under the cover garment and lift it out of the way, then hips forward and do your best to take the muzzle strait to the holster, then gently, carefuly re-holster slow slow slowly..

Not sure why you'd want to holster SHO but this is how I do it.

Much more explanation's in my AIWB skills class

[Prdator]

Hmm.

But how comfortable-wise is appendix carry? I thought the video did a good job explaining the better draw and concealment but how comfortable is it having a gun there? I used to IWB carry at right-side 4-5 o’clock but it just got too uncomfortable sitting in a truck seat all day and this was even with a little single-stack 9mm LC9S Ruger in a crossbreed holster but it’s just too uncomfortable anymore.


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Comfortable AIWB carry is like a equation, it can be very simple for some (2+2) and very complex for others with factors like, Holster make, holster width, holster length, holster ride height, holster cant, O'clock on the belt, belt selection, pant waist height, pelvis length, pant fit, shirt fit and more that I wont go into here.

Most people that "try: AIWB do it with the wrong gun, to short, the wrong holster not really made for AIWB and the wrong belt, If I could make a starter kit for AIWB it would be a PX4CC, LTT Elite, Glock 19-17-34 and 48, in one of the popular holsters that have Ride Height and Cant adjustment, and does not have a mag pouch attached. then I would add the Foundation belt from LTT/EDC belt company its the best belt ive ever used for AIWB ( the belt needs to be infinitely adjustable)

If you want the 3 hour version of this hit me up for one of my AIWB skills classes.

[Jay Cunningham]

Does anyone have a good technique for re holstering AIWB support hand only?


I've performed many, many SHO draws and even WHO draws, but I've never holstered my firearm WHO. I just can't justify doing it. Use a Blue Gun if you want to do it.

[Jay Cunningham]

Yes, the thumb will hook under the cover garment and lift it out of the way, then hips forward and do your best to take the muzzle strait to the holster, then gently, carefuly re-holster slow slow slowly..

Not sure why you'd want to holster SHO but this is how I do it.

Much more explanation's in my AIWB skills class


Bold is gold.

[BehindBlueI's]

Not sure why you'd want to holster SHO but this is how I do it.


You may not want to but may have to if injured.

[BehindBlueI's]

Hmm.

But how comfortable-wise is appendix carry?



As others have stated, it depends. Strong side is more generic and generalized advice usually works pretty well, appendix is more personal. My personal opinion is that it's usually going to require more experimentation to find something that's comfortable across a wide range of activities with appendix.

[ubervic]

When I first started reading & learning about AIWB in Todd's writings almost ten years ago, I thought it was the absolute craziest thing I'd ever heard of. But less than a year later I moved to that setup and never looked back.

Sure, it took a little experimentation to get the right setup for comfort as well as concealment, and to understand how to manage all of the dynamics safely. But the sum of the parts makes it the single most effective & efficient way for many to carry & run a pistol.

[corneileous]

Probably the most comprehensive and influential PX4 documentation available anywhere are the threads on this forum started by Ernest Langdon. He carried both the PX4 and PX4 Compact in the appendix position extensively during his testing and product development. Links below.

The PX4 Compact might be my DA/SA Glock 19
(https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?16519-The-PX4-Compact-might-be-my-DA-SA-Glock-19)
Beretta PX4 Storm - Underrated is an Understatement!
(https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?25341-Beretta-PX4-Storm-Underrated-is-an-Understatement!)
That first link didn’t work.

That second one looks like it has some good info.... as soon as I get through all 900-some posts. Lol.


And there's no reason to have a 10 pound trigger pull in DA mode with the current options available for the PX4.

I agree to an extent, that first DA pull does take a bit to get used to, and I know Beretta has that competition trigger upgrade that decreases the pull-weight by quite a bit but if you intend to carry this weapon, isn’t it better to just leave the long, heavier pull alone for continuing that lesser chance of a ND in any situation? I mean, I’ve heard of people taking Glock pistols and doing trigger jobs in them to where they go from whatever the stock trigger pull is, all the way down to a 3 pound pull and consider that safe but the fact that all three of my Storms have a long 10 pound pull when in DA mode, that’s what, in my opinion, made it an OK thing to do when I converted all three of them over to decocker only. I still feel safer now that my guns don’t have the safety that they had before but they still do have kind of a safety because as long as the hammer isn’t pulled back, it’s gonna take a lot more to make that gun go bang when it supposed to. And yeah I know we all got that safety between our ears but let’s face it... accidents are still gonna happen. That’s why I try to practice like, when I was carrying my little Ruger LC9S on me that had the thumb safety, I would practice taking it off safe as soon as I pulled it out of the holster. If I ever carried one of my storms on me, I would practice with those too where as soon as I pulled it out of the holster I would be pulling the hammer back. Or, I would just have to practice and get it in my head that that first shot is always going to be longer and harder to pull.


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[Clusterfrack]

I recently had a vacation in Alaska with Mrs. Clusterfrack, and we did about 50 miles of hiking and 10k feet of climbing. All with a G20 (with Gadget) AIWB in a JMCK 2.5, my junk carry pillow, and a Graith belt. The trick is the right combination of holster, belt, and pants for your body type. It takes a lot of patience and experimentation, but the payoff is you can comfortably carry and conceal even a yuge gun.

[MDFA]

I've been carrying AIWB for awhile now, but you guys finally got me. I just ordered 2 Gadget's. An extra layer of safety is never a bad thing...

[JSGlock34]

I agree to an extent, that first DA pull does take a bit to get used to, and I know Beretta has that competition trigger upgrade that decreases the pull-weight by quite a bit but if you intend to carry this weapon, isn’t it better to just leave the long, heavier pull alone for continuing that lesser chance of a ND in any situation?

The length of the trigger pull arc is more important than the weight of the trigger itself. Mr. Langdon explains the DA/SA benefits better than I can in the video below.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m42IJIreRoc


If I ever carried one of my storms on me, I would practice with those too where as soon as I pulled it out of the holster I would be pulling the hammer back. Or, I would just have to practice and get it in my head that that first shot is always going to be longer and harder to pull.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you here, but this reads to me as if you either plan to practice thumb-cocking your Storm while drawing, or learning the DA trigger. The latter is the right answer. Regardless, approaching the pistol with the mindset that the first double action shot is an obstacle to overcome is the wrong perspective. There is no point in carrying a DA/SA gun if you're not a believer in the DA shot. Approach the DA shot as a skill to master in order to derive the full benefits of the TDA pistol.

[Andy in NH]

You may not want to but may have to if injured.
You read my mind.

[Andy in NH]

Be careful.

Drills place perceived time pressure on shooters.

Don’t engage in risky behavior. Holster deliberately.

Not looking for a timed drill. Looking for a solid technique.


I've performed many, many SHO draws and even WHO draws, but I've never holstered my firearm WHO. I just can't justify doing it. Use a Blue Gun if you want to do it.

Probably the best way to practice. Thanks.

[Prdator]

The length of the trigger pull arc is more important than the weight of the trigger itself. Mr. Langdon explains the DA/SA benefits better than I can in the video below.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m42IJIreRoc



Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you here, but this reads to me as if you either plan to practice thumb-cocking your Storm while drawing, or learning the DA trigger. The latter is the right answer. Regardless, approaching the pistol with the mindset that the first double action shot is an obstacle to overcome is the wrong perspective. There is no point in carrying a DA/SA gun if you're not a believer in the DA shot. Approach the DA shot as a skill to master in order to derive the full benefits of the TDA pistol.

Mastering a DA/SA gun isn't all the OMG work people think it is, Ive seen Several new shooters actually shoot a PX4CC or LTT Elite so much better than a Glock, striker fired gun its not even funny.... SO dont fear the DA shot at all.

[corneileous]

The length of the trigger pull arc is more important than the weight of the trigger itself. Mr. Langdon explains the DA/SA benefits better than I can in the video below.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m42IJIreRoc



Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you here, but this reads to me as if you either plan to practice thumb-cocking your Storm while drawing, or learning the DA trigger. The latter is the right answer. Regardless, approaching the pistol with the mindset that the first double action shot is an obstacle to overcome is the wrong perspective. There is no point in carrying a DA/SA gun if you're not a believer in the DA shot. Approach the DA shot as a skill to master in order to derive the full benefits of the TDA pistol.

That’s a good video, thanks for posting that. I like how if I was to ever decide to appendix carry one of my storms that I can hold my thumb down on the hammer for protection against ND’s.

But what do you suggest to train on that first DA shot? Just range practice, never practicing shooting with the hammer pulled back for the first shot?


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[corneileous]

Mastering a DA/SA gun isn't all the OMG work people think it is, Ive seen Several new shooters actually shoot a PX4CC or LTT Elite so much better than a Glock, striker fired gun its not even funny.... SO dont fear the DA shot at all.

It’s not that I fear it, I just don’t particularly care for it. lol. Not used to it and never really knew to really practice with it.


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[Jay Cunningham]

I'm not sure I can justify a scenario outside of a drill where holstering is super important. If you have a bowie knife stuck in your arm and you are trying to calmly holster while the police are arriving... you may be in extremis.

[Prdator]

I'm not sure I can justify a scenario outside of a drill where holstering is super important. If you have a bowie knife stuck in your arm and you are trying to calmly holster while the police are arriving... you may be in extremis.

But DAMN the badass you'd be.......

[WobblyPossum]

But what do you suggest to train on that first DA shot? Just range practice, never practicing shooting with the hammer pulled back for the first shot?


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One thing I learned that really helped during my time with DA/SA pistols was to shoot tons of pairs. One shot double action, one shot single action, decock. You can do it from the ready, from the holster, two handed, or one handed, at different distances, etc. When you get to the point where your DA and SA shots are hitting in the same place, then you can work on drills that have higher round counts.

[JSGlock34]

That’s a good video, thanks for posting that. I like how if I was to ever decide to appendix carry one of my storms that I can hold my thumb down on the hammer for protection against ND’s.

But what do you suggest to train on that first DA shot? Just range practice, never practicing shooting with the hammer pulled back for the first shot?

I think DanM is spot on - practice pairs from the ready. I prefer pairs because it is also important to practice and learn the DA/SA transition. Decock the pistol every time you return to the ready. Get in the habit of decocking whenever you dismount (i.e. return to ready) the pistol. Once this habit is ingrained, progress to working on presentations from the holster. Learn to extend the pistol, align the sights, and pull the trigger simultaneously so the shot is breaking as you reach full extension. Try to keep the trigger moving throughout the presentation. I like using 3x5 index cards as targets - start close up (3-5 yards) and push the distance once you can reliably hit the target with your pair.

As usual, Ernest Langdon has videos and articles on this topic (when Prdator said, "don't fear the DA shot" he was paraprasing Mr. Langdon's article Fear Not, The Double Action Shot (http://pistol-training.com/articles/fear-not-the-double-action-shot)).


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsoX26OhDCY

[BehindBlueI's]

I'm not sure I can justify a scenario outside of a drill where holstering is super important. If you have a bowie knife stuck in your arm and you are trying to calmly holster while the police are arriving... you may be in extremis.

I've never had a Bowie knife stuck in my arm, but I've had broken bones in my hands at the end of a fight on two separate occasions. Once I did it to myself (boxer's fracture) and the other time it was done for me by the suspect (thumb broken from the base bones). I guess you're point is more you could just drop the gun, and that's valid.

I also know you might not be at your cognitive best at that point and might revert to what you're used to doing. Reminds me of the guy who shot the pawn shop robber then, post-shooting, field stripped the pistol and laid the parts on a nearby table.

[Jay Cunningham]

I've never had a Bowie knife stuck in my arm, but I've had broken bones in my hands at the end of a fight on two separate occasions. Once I did it to myself (boxer's fracture) and the other time it was done for me by the suspect (thumb broken from the base bones). I guess you're point is more you could just drop the gun, and that's valid.

I also know you might not be at your cognitive best at that point and might revert to what you're used to doing. Reminds me of the guy who shot the pawn shop robber then, post-shooting, field stripped the pistol and laid the parts on a nearby table.

One must also keep background and context in mind.

I can understand your potential need (as LE) to holster with an injured hand, WHO. Less so for me or my fellow average citizens. I can picture in my mind’s eye an adrenaline-fueled fumbling attempt to awkwardly holster a gun after a shooting, leading to a tense interaction with arriving law enforcement.

I’m pretty sure no one is going to draw down on you in uniform trying to straighten your situation out after an incident.


The above is similar to the “speed holster” thing that LE can (and do) justify because they might need to hands-on, but that I cannot.


Anyway, as we established it’s a risky practice so use a blue gun or SIRT.

[BehindBlueI's]

One must also keep background and context in mind.

I can understand your potential need (as LE) to holster with an injured hand, WHO. Less so for me or my fellow average citizens. I can picture in my mind’s eye an adrenaline-fueled fumbling attempt to awkwardly holster a gun after a shooting, leading to a tense interaction with arriving law enforcement.

I’m pretty sure no one is going to draw down on you in uniform trying to straighten your situation out after an incident.


The above is similar to the “speed holster” thing that LE can (and do) justify because they might need to hands-on, but that I cannot.


Anyway, as we established it’s a risky practice so use a blue gun or SIRT.

I think there are two basic "scenarios" where WHO work matters. The one more likely to apply to the masses is a hand injury that's nothing to do with a fight. You hurt your hand in the kitchen or working on the house. Your strong hand is out of commission for weeks or months. Do you stop carrying for that time? Or do you learn to do things WHO? That includes drawing, admin holstering, etc.

[Jay Cunningham]

Good points, but do we just maybe buy an opposite side holster in that case?

If my right arm was in a cast I’d carry on my left side.

[BehindBlueI's]

Good points, but do we just maybe buy an opposite side holster in that case?

If my right arm was in a cast I’d carry on my left side.

Sure, but you're still WHO regardless of what side and what position your gun is at. I hadn't thought that far ahead the first time and ended up cavalry draw until I could procure a lefty holster.

[Jay Cunningham]

Todd (r.i.p) used to always talk about defining terms so that knowledgeable people don’t accidentally talk past each other.

Here’s my frame of reference:

Unless a person is truly ambidextrous, they have a strong hand and a weak hand (NLP enthusiasts notwithstanding). Their strong hand is their firing hand and their weak hand is their support hand - under normal circumstances.

If a person switches to WHO it’s still their weak hand, but now it’s their firing hand. Their strong hand is their support hand if available.

So strong and weak hands always stay the same, firing and support hands can change.

I am a firm believer in ambidextrous gun handling. Super Dave has an “Iron Cross” Drill that is great for this.

SHO shooting is extremely common in real shooting situations and should be mastered. WHO occurs very rarely, but there should be a pre-programmed success path on the neural network.

I teach a class called Murphy Strikes! (http://protectiveshootingconcepts.com/event-info/#murphy-strikes) which covers this stuff pretty well.

My response to the post above asking about AIWB WHO holstering was predicated on holstering a gun on the strong side with the weak hand. I do think weak hand skills are important. Carrying a gun on my left side due to a right arm injury is in fact weak hand shooting for me, but not holstering cross body.

[BehindBlueI's]

Unless a person is truly ambidextrous, they have a strong hand and a weak hand (NLP enthusiasts notwithstanding). Their strong hand is their firing hand and their weak hand is their support hand - under normal circumstances.

If a person switches to WHO it’s still their weak hand, but now it’s their firing hand. Their strong hand is their support hand if available.


Yeah, we're on the same page. Just out of curiosity, if you were to become a one-armed bandit temporarily would you go appendix or weak side? I'm a 3:30 carrier normally so I just mirrored. I've heard appendix advocates list that the gun is easier to access with your off hand, which I think is valid. Sure, you have to cavalry draw, but (especially depending on build) then to reach behind yourself for a strong side carry.

[Jay Cunningham]

Yeah, we're on the same page. Just out of curiosity, if you were to become a one-armed bandit temporarily would you go appendix or weak side? I'm a 3:30 carrier normally so I just mirrored. I've heard appendix advocates list that the gun is easier to access with your off hand, which I think is valid. Sure, you have to cavalry draw, but (especially depending on build) then to reach behind yourself for a strong side carry.

If my right arm was out of commission, I'd likely carry at my 8:30. While I know how to draw one-handed AIWB (precisely as Spencer K. described earlier in the thread) it's still IMO more of a pain in the ass than a conventional concealed draw from open front concealment. I'm already at a disadvantage in that case so no time for me to try and be clever.

[Mr_White]

I've performed many, many SHO draws and even WHO draws, but I've never holstered my firearm WHO. I just can't justify doing it. Use a Blue Gun if you want to do it.

I just wanted to add my agreement to this post.

[Hunter Rose]

Mike is a great instructor, but carrying a Wilson 1911 isn’t the answer. If someone can’t safely holster a Glock, they should strongly consider more training.


We could parse this thread down to just the above quote. Most excellent answer.
AIWB, and gun saftery in general is a software issue.
Safeties, SCD's and such are just hardware backups to software failures.

Kind of how most AD's, when cut down to the bone of it, are usually an ND, due to not following the simple rules.


As a trained safety professional/mishap investigator, I strongly disagree with the sentiment of these statements. They are very poor advice if someone is trying to realistically assess the risk levels of a carrying/holstering a stock striker fired pistol like a Glock or HK VP9 vs a TDA or SAO hammer fired gun with manual safety.

Handguns with manual safeties, SCDs, hammers, etc. are ABSOLUTELY SAFER for AIWB carry than a stock striker fired pistol like a Glock or HK VP9.

This does not mean a stock Glock cannot be safely carried AIWB, but there is definitely increased risk involved. A Glock or VP9 is essentially a single point failure system in regards to safety when re-holstering. If you leave your finger on the trigger or something gets caught in the trigger guard while re-holstering, a ND will occur. There are lots of documented cases of NDs happening to LEOs under these exact circumstances. A large percentage of these NDs would likely not have occurred if these same LEOs were equipped with hammer fired pistols with manual safeties and corresponding holstering procedures.

Pistols with manual safeties, SCDs, hammers, etc. and corresponding safe holstering procedures ARE safer for re-holstering because they provide multiple and overlapping safety features that must all fail for an ND to occur. When re-holstering an HK P30LS carried cocked and locked I keep my finger off the trigger, engage the manual safety, and firmly press my thumb between the hammer and firing pin. These three steps all provide overlapping safety for re-holstering. If I forget to take my finger off the trigger or something gets into the trigger guard when re-holster, both the manual safety and thumb between the hammer/firing pin would defeat this error, and an ND would not occur (whereas there would be a loud BOOM with a stock Glock).

The P30LS carried in this fashion is safer than a stock Glock because the probability is less that all three safety features will fail for an AD/ND to occur, whereas only one safety feature must fail on a stock Glock.

[Clusterfrack]

Hunter Rose, I understand where you’re coming from. I wasn’t arguing that everyone should AIWB a Glock. I’m carrying a P07 right now.

However, every AIWB carrier should be able to holster any gun safely. If they’re relying on a manual safety, that’s not good enough IMO. Safeties get forgotten, bad habits get built.

[Duke]

Straightforward topic that needed little addition beyond the OP has turned into a sea of minutia.


Not shooting your junk off is pretty basic all things considered.


Panone doesn’t cover the hammer when he holsters. Langdon does.

Clint Smith will lightly mock you for AIWB, Gabe saures will call you fat if you don’t aiwb


Who’s right ? Who cares. None of us are going to totally change our method based on any of it or the terms associated.

Like a discussion about how to piss on the ground

[Hunter Rose]

Hunter Rose

However, every AIWB carrier should be able to holster any gun safely. If they’re relying on a manual safety, that’s not good enough IMO. Safeties get forgotten, bad habits get built.

My retort to your example above would be: "Keeping fingers off triggers gets forgotten, bad habits get built." ;)

Academically speaking, the poorly trained individual with bad habits you cite above is just as safe solely relying on the manual safety as the same poorly trained person solely relying on keeping their finger off the trigger during re-holstering. Both are single point of failure systems that are safe as long as they are ALWAYS performed correctly.

But that misses the point. The safety benefits of manual safeties and positively controlling a hammer are not meant to replace sound holstering techniques, but rather to add additional layers of safety that can prevent an ND when sound holstering techniques fail.

Using the cocked and locked P30LS example, it has three layers of overlapping safety features to prevent an ND:

1) sound holstering technique that ensures finger is off the trigger, no obstructions/debris are in the holster, etc.in case #2 and #3 fail
2) engaging manual safety to prevent the gun from firing if #1 and #3 fail
3) thumb between hammer and firing pin to prevent the gun from firing if #1 and #2 fail

The stock Glock only has #1 to prevent an ND. Step #1 must be performed correctly EVERY SINGLE TIME. It is a less safe system for AIWB carry where a ND is likely catastrophic and can cause death.

Again, this is not to say a stock Glock or VP9 cannot be carried safely AIWB, but people need to be realistic and acknowledge that making this choice comes with greatly increased risk of a catastrophic ND that could result in death.

[Hunter Rose]

Straightforward topic that needed little addition beyond the OP has turned into a sea of minutia.

Not shooting your junk off is pretty basic all things considered.



Sure, but there are pistols that make it less likely you'll shoot your junk off.

Also, I thought the whole purpose of Pistol-Forum was to discuss the minutiae of all things shooting?

[RJ]

Sure, but there are pistols that make it less likely you'll shoot your junk off.

Also, I thought the whole purpose of Pistol-Forum was to discuss the minutiae of all things shooting?

Carry on, from my perspective.

I value your perspective and point of view.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[10mmfanboy]

Living where I live (basically the middle of nowhere) I still prefer practicing with a hammer fired pistol, I've carried glocks for years pre gadget but could never imagine carrying a glock in any position ever again without a gadget.

I'd like to know if ya'll have any data on car crashes in relationship to carrying aiwb? I carry glocks and hammer fired pistols this way and always cringe at the thought of getting in an accident. My theory or rather pep talk to myself every time I drive is, well I'd probably get all seriously mangled anyway and having a hammer at rest or glock probably won't matter one way or the other because either one will probably be going off due to G-Forces.

I'm not sure I am buying into it's better to have on your person while driving anymore until I see some hard evidence of what happens during a car crash. Because I am way more likely to meet a drunk driver head on or some asshole that doesn't know how to drive than a car jacker. Heck having to put down an injured cow I hit is probably even a much more likely scenario.

[Moylan]

Carry on, from my perspective.

I value your perspective and point of view.


I agree. Very thoughtful stuff!

[BehindBlueI's]

Living where I live (basically the middle of nowhere) I still prefer practicing with a hammer fired pistol, I've carried glocks for years pre gadget but could never imagine carrying a glock in any position ever again without a gadget.

I'd like to know if ya'll have any data on car crashes in relationship to carrying aiwb? I carry glocks and hammer fired pistols this way and always cringe at the thought of getting in an accident. My theory or rather pep talk to myself every time I drive is, well I'd probably get all seriously mangled anyway and having a hammer at rest or glock probably won't matter one way or the other because either one will probably be going off due to G-Forces.

I'm not sure I am buying into it's better to have on your person while driving anymore until I see some hard evidence of what happens during a car crash. Because I am way more likely to meet a drunk driver head on or some asshole that doesn't know how to drive than a car jacker. Heck having to put down an injured cow I hit is probably even a much more likely scenario.

I've seen some nasty, nasty fatal crashes and have yet to see a handgun fired from the impact. Seems like anything that would touch off a Glock probably killed you anyway. Keep in mind that unless you are carrying the pistol in such a way the striker is in line with the forces of the crash it's not being subjected to the force of the crash anyway. Your barrel is probably pointed down, so is your striker, and you probably aren't getting smoked from underneath. With the exception of a rollover the forces are going to be mostly perpendicular to your firing pin/striker.

Now free float firing pins do have the potential and are more often stored in a manner that they aren't pointed up or down and need extra precaution.

[10mmfanboy]

@BehindtheBluel's thank you so much sir! That makes me feel more at ease, other than the whole rollover part that I completely neglected to think of. I try to position the holster (kydex) lower while driving and tucking my seatbelt behind the holster, trying to keep it down low enough that my seatbelt is down on my lap more closer to where it would be without a holster on.

Thanks again! I can sleep a little better at night now. The whole car crash gun on has been really bothering me lately.

[Cecil Burch]

I just don’t understand the vitriol that some people put out when discussing this.

Is it possible to carry a striker gun AIWB safely and never have a problem? Without a doubt. Is it ever a bad idea to have some safety redundancy built in to give an extra layer? Never. Does that mean you should or be required to have that redundancy? Of course not. It is a uniquely individual thing. I know so many people that I immensely respect and admire who have no problem running a striker gun AIWB and have never once had an ND. However, that does not mean I have to walk in lockstep with them. I need to make my decision based on what works for me. I cannot wrap my head around not having that extra margin. I don’t look askance at someone who chooses a different path.

So if someone chooses to run striker, I don’t see why anyone needs to lambast them for it. And the corollary is if some choose to have a manual safety or a DA with external hammer, so what? Why does it matter? Unless they are somehow demanding you do the same and have the power to compel you, why waste time arguing it? Does my carrying a PX4 affect you? Because you carrying a 320 certainly does not affect me. So instead of making dogmatic statements, why don’t we couch it in terms of “this is why I choose this for myself”.

[ChrisLapre]

Mike is a great instructor, but carrying a Wilson 1911 isn’t the answer. If someone can’t safely holster a Glock, they should strongly consider more training.


This is the most accurate statement made from my virtually useless opinion. As Cecil said we will argue about holstering seven pages of thread, but in the end it’s an individual choice. If it works and it’s safe for the one carrying, who cares? I don’t .
I’ve trained with Mike and I’m betting some of his lecture is based off of liability on the company that had him discuss appendix carry. Because if you shoot yourself in the dick today, it’s not your fault. It is always the gun, organization, manufacturer, videographer, or the guy 3 shooting bays down fault that you did it. Not yours.

Oh and I live dangerously by AWIB’ing a Glock without a gadget. I had one fail in training where the pistol would not fire and decided I’ll stick with OEM design and holster carefully.

[STI]

I just don’t understand the vitriol that some people put out when discussing this.

Is it possible to carry a striker gun AIWB safely and never have a problem? Without a doubt. Is it ever a bad idea to have some safety redundancy built in to give an extra layer? Never. Does that mean you should or be required to have that redundancy? Of course not. It is a uniquely individual thing. I know so many people that I immensely respect and admire who have no problem running a striker gun AIWB and have never once had an ND. However, that does not mean I have to walk in lockstep with them. I need to make my decision based on what works for me. I cannot wrap my head around not having that extra margin. I don’t look askance at someone who chooses a different path.

So if someone chooses to run striker, I don’t see why anyone needs to lambast them for it. And the corollary is if some choose to have a manual safety or a DA with external hammer, so what? Why does it matter? Unless they are somehow demanding you do the same and have the power to compel you, why waste time arguing it? Does my carrying a PX4 affect you? Because you carrying a 320 certainly does not affect me. So instead of making dogmatic statements, why don’t we couch it in terms of “this is why I choose this for myself”.

A-fucking-men.

[HopetonBrown]

Oh and I live dangerously by AWIB’ing a Glock without a gadget. I had one fail in training where the pistol would not fire and decided I’ll stick with OEM design and holster carefully.

Could you recount the circumstances?

[ChrisLapre]

Could you recount the circumstances?

Yep. A small piece of debris got inside and bound the system up. I will say this was a pre-production model during a ammo intensive class, but left me with doubt enough to never use one again.
This occurred in front of a couple people on this site .

[blues]

Yep. A small piece of debris got inside and bound the system up. I will say this was a pre-production model during a ammo intensive class, but left me with doubt enough to never use one again.
This occurred in front of a couple people on this site .

Was this reported to Tom_Jones? Did he analyze or provide any insight on the matter? First I'm hearing of it.

[blues]

Nope.

Thought not. Disappointing...as now we have an allegation without any substantiation or further analysis / explanation of the root cause of the issue.

[03RN]

Yep. A small piece of debris got inside and bound the system up. I will say this was a pre-production model during a ammo intensive class, but left me with doubt enough to never use one again.
This occurred in front of a couple people on this site .

Could you @ them? I'm curious how a small piece of debri could lock it forward.

[Clusterfrack]

There’s a lot of data on trouble free SCD function in dirty conditions from SouthNarc ‘s ECQC classes.

I trust the SCD and have them on all my Glocks. Relevant to this thread, the SCD makes carrying a Glock safer—especially in AIWB.

[blues]

There’s a lot of data on trouble free SCD function in dirty conditions from SouthNarc ‘s ECQC classes.

I trust the SCD and have them on all my Glocks. Relevant to this thread, the SCD makes carrying a Glock safer—especially in AIWB.

Ditto.

[ChrisLapre]

Thought not. Disappointing...as now we have an allegation without any substantiation or further analysis / explanation of the root cause of the issue.

It wasn’t an allegation. As stated it occurred years ago and at the time didn’t even know who manufactured it. It was given to me and if I’m correct by the original company that did the pre-production ones. It was placed on hold due to legal or liability issues and later produced again by a different organization.

So before I get accused of accusations of a faulty product, I don’t care if you run one. All the new ones seem to work great. My small experience changed my mind on using it, but I don’t fault those who do. And it was stuck in the open or up position. Not locked closed.

[ChrisLapre]

Nope.

Tom,
If you have some association to the product I apologize for not letting you know. I didn’t know anything about who designed the Gadget or made it. If I had known I would have told you .

I’ve mentioned this to several guys on this board at training classes and shared my experience on it. So it’s not like I’m hiding or making shit up as the tone of these response s indicate. Again it’s a personal choice on a one time incident that caused my to have a different opinion.

Cecil Burch knows, so does Mike L. from Ryker Nylon who was present when it happened, and others too.

[ChrisLapre]

Ok. That’s what I was told. It was years ago and Todd was still alive when I got it. They did give me theirs as they weren’t going to use it. This was Very early in the development of it from what I gathered. The legal/ liability stuff was what was told to me when I asked how they were coming along. I was told they were on hold because of the above. So I apologize for the misinformation.

Contact me in a private message and I’ll be happy to provide where I got it from . The person/company have treated me very well and I don’t want any issues coming back on them with the recent overreaction that occurs on this board these days.



FWIW, the only company that has ever produced the SCD is Tau Development Group (my company). The only person that ever distributed pre-production SCDs was me. Maybe someone gave you theirs, but that would have been counter to the, shall we say “rigorous”, testing agreement and NDA that Todd wrote (and that everyone had to sign before I sent them one).

The stuff about the “original company”, things being “placed on hold due to legal or liability issues” and later produced by a different company bear no resemblance to reality. There’s only been one company, mine.

I don’t doubt you saw what you saw and it doesn’t bother me at all if you (or anyone) chooses not to use the SCD/gadget. Just pointing out that the narrative about legal/liability issues and others companies isn’t accurate.

[ChrisLapre]

That won’t be necessary. It would likely only serve to lower my opinion of a person/company I probably currently respect. I don’t need the negativity.

Fair enough. Like I said, it’s a great idea but at the time was working under cover and it seemed like what I was looking for carrying a G19 appendix . If I had known you were the Man I certainly would have reached out. But I have to say it was as far back as 2009 or 2010 if I remember correctly and I don’t even think I was a member here.

Take care,
Chris

[HopetonBrown]

I had one fail in training where the pistol would not fire


Yep. A small piece of debris got inside and bound the system up.


And it was stuck in the open or up position. Not locked closed.

OK, sounds like your Gadget no longer had the ability to control the striker during reholster, but had zero impact on the functioning of the firearm. So the SCD turned into a regular slide plate, basically.

[Clusterfrack]

ChrisLapre, I really think you should give the SCD another try. It's a very high quality part, made of steel.

I worry less about a SCD-enabled Glock than when I carry my TDA gun (P-07) in the field where it commonly gets wet, dirty, and dusty in the hammer area. I have yet to have a contamination-related failure in either platform.

[ChrisLapre]

I wasn’t sure Of the timeline . That was a rough estimate. It had to be 2011, 2012 then and I didn’t say I had a bad experience. I said I had a failure with it during one iteration that caused me to decide not to use it. Plain and simple. And the one I had was carbon and parkerized and received it from Jeff C at TangoDown. He had a few and I asked him for one since it was a great idea. I used it on duty in a under cover capacity for a while until the issue I mentioned in the class.
I was not and am not putting it down. It was a decision based on my work and what I saw not to use it.
I believe Pennzoil still has it as it was given to him to use. I’ll get it back and post pictures so you can tell if it is pre-production or one of the first sent out.



FWIW, CAD drawings didn’t even exist until early 2011. The first half dozen functional prototypes (machined from aluminum and anodized — half of them in black, the other half in orange) weren’t made until April 2011. No one besides Todd and I ever saw one in person until the first weekend of May 2011 at a small PF meetup/mini-class in Culpeper. The first 100 pre-production testing units (made from carbon steel and parkerized) that were sent out to testers weren’t produced until October 2012 (almost all of those didn’t get distributed until the second half of 2013 and 2014). All of this is after PF was started on 2011-02-25.

If you had a bad experience with a “gadget” in 2009 or 2010, it was with a different product.

[Mr_White]

I wrote and posted this quite a while back in some other discussion here about AIWB. Since some of the same issues have been brought up in this thread, I thought I would share again. I'm no professional risk manager; this is just how I conceptualize these issues for myself and I hope it helps someone out there.

---

I don't believe AIWB as a category can be nailed down to a specific safety level, because I think it depends on what can be subtle interactions between the gun, the holster, and the practitioner that are hard to consider without specific examples. It adds up differently for different people. I'm firmly convinced that running AIWB the way I do it is safer than any of the strong side IWB holsters I've ever used because it involves much less muzzle-body intersection.

An aspect of this I find really interesting are the differing levels of anxiety different people express about whatever carry method with whatever pistol type. If I couldn't generally avert my muzzle from my body, as with a large-wedged Keeper AIWB holster (~2" thick wedge), I might never have started carrying a Glock AIWB. I'm not sure I'd be comfortable enough to carry any gun in that position if I couldn't avert the muzzle. That's what I'm attached to myself. I'm not sure a manual safety, heavy trigger, or hammer would convince me otherwise. But people cobble together safety in AIWB though a combination of various different factors, and my way isn't the only way to get a safe AIWB carry method going.

AIWB can be undertaken safely through various combinations of the factors that make it harder to fire the gun, harder to hit yourself with the bullet, and harder to hit yourself seriously with the bullet. Further, some of these factors require you do something, and others work passively and don't require you to do anything.

Mitigating factors that require you do something:

A. Trigger finger discipline
B. Hard break before holstering
C. Holster slowly and carefully
D. Look the gun into the holster
E. Bow the pelvis forward when holstering
F. Thumb check a manual safety
G. Thumb check a Gadget Striker Control Device or hammer

Mitigating factors that don't require you do something:

H. Heavier/longer trigger pull
I. Holster positioned BETWEEN groin and leg
J. Big pads on the holster that prevent the muzzle from aligning with your body through flesh compression
K. Longer gun/holster will also make it harder for the muzzle to align with your body through flesh compression
L. Minimize clothing and gear near the holster so foreign matter is less available to get into the trigger guard

I lean hardest on A and J, but also on B, C, E, G, I, K, and L. I really prefer to have at least one factor from the second list, because those factors are not as subject to human error.

[Cecil Burch]

Anyone who is doubting Chris' veracity or experience with gear and shooting, and understanding how to test or run T&E are speaking without knowledge. In fact, he has a more extensive resume and experience level than 99% of the people on this forum. Because he spends more time in harm's way than going online he is not known by a lot of folks but he is certainly is known by the top people. Ask Darryl, Langdon, Pannone, Steve Fischer, Craig, et al.

Those who are trying to cast doubt on him and using Craig's experiences with the gadget in ECQC probably should know that Chris has worked with Craig since 2004 and was actually one of the very first handful of guys to host Craig. In fact, the famous video of Craig and Gomez dealing with the SERPA failure? That was at the course in AZ hosted by Chris in 2004 and he was right there involved with that video. He is well aware of how extensive ECQC is on gear.

He is also one of those guys that gets a ton of gear handed to him to test because of the unique environment and working conditions he is in. He also is responsible for helping set up classes at a LE range in AZ and had hosted or allowed classes to be held by many people including Todd. If he says he was given an early gadget to run, I have no doubt it is fact. I can easily get a hold of said gadget if needed.