Thought Experiment: ~$60k "performance" Small-ish SUVs

[rob_s]

We are mulling over a move "into town" which would (a) make my need for a truck pretty minimal and (b) make a fullsize vehicle problematic (any space I save in future fantasy garage would be space I'd get to use to store tools...).

This has had me poking around the small-ish (~185" OAL) SUV market, particularly as relates to "performance" trims and models. Examples would be the Porsche Macan, BMW X3 M40i, Audi SQ5, Volvo XC60 T8, Mercedes GLC 43 AMG, etc. Also on the "maybe" list are what I'd consider ultra-small SUVs (~175" OAL) like the Mercedes GLA 45 AMG and the BMW X2 M35i. On the other end of the spectrum there appears to be only one player at the moment and that's the 2020 Ford Explorer ST (at ~199" OAL).

Price criteria being ~$60k+/- out the door, and performance being (and I know there's more to performance than this, just using this as a starting point) 5 seconds 0-60 or +/-.

The Volvo is my current "pick" mostly because (a) I believe the "hybrid" moniker gets me legally into the HOV lane (b) it's probably the least known as a "luxury" brand (showing up with a BMW or Benz is going to send a gaudy message in some of my circles) and (c) I really like their interior styling and infotainment. Of the two it seems to most closely compete with (the X3 and Q5) it has what I consider to be the best combination of seat up/down cargo space of the three.

Mostly as a thought experiment (more so than a "tell me how to spend my money" or "tell me what to do") but I thought it'd be interesting to have a discussion surrounding this segment as I know there's a fair number of car guys here.

[Jason M]

I have a couple of thoughts about the topic. Are you buying or leasing? A trusted mechanic who owns a shop staffed only by techs who were factory trained by many of the makers you mentioned says, "Lease forced induction, buy fuel injected." His position is that the higher pressure engines are expensive to rebuild after having them for more than a few years.

A friend's ex has the Porsche and loves it.

I had a Volvo XC 90 and the transmission (GM made) self destructed. Same transmission in my old Impala cop car did the same during a pursuit. Oil and bearings rolling down the street, but that's another story. Check to see who is making Volvo's stuff before buying.

Perhaps Infinity?

[rob_s]

Perhaps Infinity?

I may be missing it, but I don't see anything "performance" centered in their SUV offerings...

[RevolverRob]

So, I guess it depends on what you want it to drive like - a car, a performance sedan, or a truck?

The Macan/Q5 are effectively the same vehicle. And they share the same underlying chassis as the Audi A-series sedans. They drive far more like front-wheel drive sedans with some power going to the back wheels, than a RWD car.

The BMW is based on the shared platform for their sedans and roadsters, but is built from the ground up to be RWD. Adding X-Drive, makes it drive more like an all-time 4WD Jeep than an AWD car, which I actually find better, it really digs in and transfers the power around as necessary. I want to think the BMW has a higher towing capacity than the Porsche/Audi, but I could be wrong.

I can't comment on the Volvo's drivetrain. I haven't driven a new Volvo in 20 years. I don't think I could be convinced to buy one, lots of electrical problems with them right now.

The Explorer - well the new 2020 is a RWD chassis that is getting rave reviews right now. I haven't had a chance to drive one, but I'm definitely interested in the ST model myself. The previous gen was definitely more car than truck like, but the 3.5 AWD ecoboost Police Interceptor package is a fun vehicle to drive. Much faster than an old Crown Vic and extremely stable at speed.

[farscott]

I struggle reconciling the tall center of gravity of SUV designs, the short wheel bases of the smaller ones, and "performance". Of the ones I have driven, the Porsche Cayenne and the Tesla Model X were decent, but both are priced north of your desired range. The Model X was surprisingly nimble, and the low-end torque and lower center of gravity made for a fun-to-drive vehicle. Of course, it has the infrastructure issues of needing to be charged and those stupid doors.

My wife test drove a Macan and hated it due to the limited space for stuff both in the cabin and in the "hatch area". The Explorer ST is a lumbering beast that plows rather than turns. I have no experience with Volvo since they were sold by Ford to the Chinese group Geely. My impression before was the vehicles were very difficult to service, requiring custom tools that mostly only dealers have.

[DallasBronco]

Is a Grand Cherokee an option? I find the Hemi to be an outstanding engine in their trucks, especially mated to the ZF 8-speed.

[rob_s]

I struggle reconciling the tall center of gravity of SUV designs, the short wheel bases of the smaller ones, and "performance". Of the ones I have driven, the Porsche Cayenne and the Tesla Model X were decent, but both are priced north of your desired range. The Model X was surprisingly nimble, and the low-end torque and lower center of gravity made for a fun-to-drive vehicle. Of course, it has the infrastructure issues of needing to be charged and those stupid doors.

My wife test drove a Macan and hated it due to the limited space for stuff both in the cabin and in the "hatch area". The Explorer ST is a lumbering beast that plows rather than turns. I have no experience with Volvo since they were sold by Ford to the Chinese group Geely. My impression before was the vehicles were very difficult to service, requiring custom tools that mostly only dealers have.

Personally...
I'm not tracking the car, so I don't really care about "performance" other than straight-line highway/real-world. I honestly find most of the discussions around handling and such in the car media to be pretty amusing given the percentage of buyers that are actually going to do anything related to those topics is about near 0 in most cases.

re: service, I'm not buying a $60k car (or even a $20k car, for that matter) and then turning wrenches. I thankfully graduated from having to work on my own cars and unless my financial outlook changes I won't be doing it again. I'm fine with dealer service (I think I've had my last 4 vehicles exclusively serviced at their respective dealerships) and don't care about not being able to use a mom-n-pop place.

I suppose overall my need falls more into an urban vehicle with high sightlines, a little more ground clearance, and enough oomph so as both not to be too boring and also be king of the on-ramp.

[rob_s]

Is a Grand Cherokee an option? I find the Hemi to be an outstanding engine in their trucks, especially mated to the ZF 8-speed.

I like it in concept, but it's a 6-second vehicle at best until you get to the SRT which puts it above my imaginary $60k "limit".

The good news, however, is that it's closer in OAL (at 189") to the XC60/Macan/SQ5/X3 (~185") than it is to the Explorer (199"). In a 20ft garage every little bit helps.

I can't believe this current design has been around since 2011!
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a27891433/jeep-grand-cherokee-2021-spied/

[LJP]

FWIW, my uncle has the hybrid Volvo SUV on a lease, and can’t wait to get rid of it. All the driver assist features that it touts don’t work as advertised. More hindrance than help.

Flip side is that I run around in a police package Ford Explorer at work when I’m on the fly car. For various logistical reasons, a 2020 Exporer will probably be the next family car.

[rob_s]

FWIW, my uncle has the hybrid Volvo SUV on a lease, and can’t wait to get rid of it. All the driver assist features that it touts don’t work as advertised. More hindrance than help.

We rented a Volvo V90 T8 wagon in Norway. I *loved* driving that car. We drive it around in the rural areas for 7 days, then for 5 hours on the highway, than around Oslo for 3 days. Other than the high window making it impossible to rest my arm on the sill, I had not one complaint. That's part of what's piqued my interest in the Volvo line. I'd really like to have the V90 T8 Cross Country but it's a little long and they only offer the T6 in the US. I don't actually recall any driver assist features beyond the parking sensors...?

Obviously 10 days on vacation is way different than dealing with it in the real world.

[LJP]

We rented a Volvo V90 T8 wagon in Norway. I *loved* driving that car. We drive it around in the rural areas for 7 days, then for 5 hours on the highway, than around Oslo for 3 days. Other than the high window making it impossible to rest my arm on the sill, I had not one complaint. That's part of what's piqued my interest in the Volvo line. I'd really like to have the V90 T8 Cross Country but it's a little long and they only offer the T6 in the US. I don't actually recall any driver assist features beyond the parking sensors...?

Obviously 10 days on vacation is way different than dealing with it in the real world.

As I recall from chatting with him about it, the “lane departure” system was his biggest complaint. Basically, it engages at unpredictable times and nearly yanked the steering wheel out of his grasp. The software and hardware interface did not seem very well engineered to him. Mind you, this is coming from a former military chopper pilot... he is just not nearly impressed enough with the vehicle to keep it beyond the lease end.

[rob_s]

As I recall from chatting with him about it, the “lane departure” system was his biggest complaint. Basically, it engages at unpredictable times and nearly yanked the steering wheel out of his grasp. The software and hardware interface did not seem very well engineered to him. Mind you, this is coming from a former military chopper pilot... he is just not nearly impressed enough with the vehicle to keep it beyond the lease end.

the wife's Honda Pilot has some kind of lane departure thing. My driving is definitely more wobbly than it seems to want to allow, haha! I seem to kind of recall it being on the V90, but not obtrusive in any way, and in both the Honda and the Volvo you can turn it off.

[Rex G]

We live in a small, independent city, but being surrounded by the sprawling amoeba of Houston, Texas, we are urban. Hurricanes Ike and Harvey, in 2008 and 2017, and TS Allison, in 2001, have reminded us to keep buying high-clearance vehicles. We have his-and-hers 2WD Toyota Tundras, and a TJ Wrangler.

We almost bought a 4Runner, this year, but the huge interior capacity of the maximum-cab 4-door Tundra appealed more, to my wife, and it was her turn to choose. (Her Tundra replaced a 4-door Wrangler.)

If I were to choose a new SUV, today, priced within the parameters of this discussion, it would be a 4Runner.

[RJ]

The new 2020 Porsche Macan S seems on point - $59k without options, and a rated 4.9s 0-60 time with Sports Chrono, according to Porsche web site?

Obviously Porsche packs the options list with a lengthy and expensive set of seemingly unlimited choices. So that 59k price can balloon quickly.

Normally I’d not suggest a first model year car. Mrs. 2019 Cayenne has been relatively problem free, so far. Although we only have 3,300 miles on it. The forums I’m on seem mostly to be electrical gremlins.

As to performance, Porsche horses are larger than stated, usually. So I would not doubt that Macan S would scoot.

And of course Porsche DNA.

I had a 2018 Macan loaner a few weeks ago. I spent the day wondering if I’d left the handbrake on. The 2.0T was distinctly underwhelming. I think the 4 banger got tossed in the 2020 update though.

Hope this helps. Lots of good choices out there.

[RJ]

As I recall from chatting with him about it, the “lane departure” system was his biggest complaint. Basically, it engages at unpredictable times and nearly yanked the steering wheel out of his grasp. The software and hardware interface did not seem very well engineered to him. Mind you, this is coming from a former military chopper pilot... he is just not nearly impressed enough with the vehicle to keep it beyond the lease end.

Wife’s 2018 Honda Accord had a system like that.

We turned that crap off ASAP. Stupid system was alerting as we tried to steer onto off ramps - not infrequently with YOU ARE ABOUT TO DIE! Messages on the console and accompanying steering wheel nudges.

[RevolverRob]

The 2.0T was distinctly underwhelming.

It's underwhelming in a 3000 pound GTI. 0-60 in 6.0 seconds? Rob_S wants to buy an SUV that's that fast.

I'd be kind of pissed if I spent $35k on a GTI to discover the kid down the street with a 25k EcoBoost Mustang can not only beat me to 60mph, and beat me down the 1320 by a full second, but also can pull more Gs than me on the skidpad and stomp on my autocross times.

In fact, I'll say it - the vast majority of VAG's engine and transmission choices are pretty much hot garbage. This is why Porsche usually eschews them entirely or at least builds the VAG architecture in house and tunes them.

[Zincwarrior]

Get a Nissan Rogue. With the difference buy guns, lots of guns! and bullets!;)

[RevolverRob]

Get a Nissan Rogue. With the difference buy guns, lots of guns! and bullets!;)

Rob_S doesn't even like shooting that much. And his solution to all things "guns" is a Glock 19 and some flavor of AR15.

You have to come at this from the right frame of reference - really ~60k performance SUV is a compromise until the kids go off to college and he has a full-on midlife crisis and buys a C8 Corvette or a Hellcat Challenger.

Until then - he wants to drive like a d-bag and have stop-light drag races with teenagers in lowered Civics. While he convinces himself that he is superior to them, because he's 30-years older with a career and more cash in the bank, all while longing for the freedom of their relatively responsibility-free lives. All of this alongside simultaneously contemplating why he didn't buy himself a vasectomy for a 25th birthday present, so he could be driving something else besides a boring dad mobile.

[dontshakepandas]

We live in a small, independent city, but being surrounded by the sprawling amoeba of Houston, Texas, we are urban. Hurricanes Ike and Harvey, in 2008 and 2017, and TS Allison, in 2001, have reminded us to keep buying high-clearance vehicles. We have his-and-hers 2WD Toyota Tundras, and a TJ Wrangler.

We almost bought a 4Runner, this year, but the huge interior capacity of the maximum-cab 4-door Tundra appealed more, to my wife, and it was her turn to choose. (Her Tundra replaced a 4-door Wrangler.)

If I were to choose a new SUV, today, priced within the parameters of this discussion, it would be a 4Runner.

This. I looked at many of these options and ended up with a 4Runner TRD Pro.

One option I haven't seen mentioned is the Alfa Romeo Stelvio. I think it is one of the best looking in the class. Handling is supposed to be fantastic. 0-60 is 5.4 seconds in the standard model or 3.3 if you want to go over budget for the Quadrifoglio.

I'm not a huge fan of the partial self driving features. Once all cars are driving themselves I might consider it, but until then I don't really want anything taking the control away from me.

Also, none of them seemed reliable enough for me to spend my money on them, and I would have to imagine the Alfa Romeo would come in pretty close to the bottom of the pack in that regard.

[RJ]

Rob_S doesn't even like shooting that much. And his solution to all things "guns" is a Glock 19 and some flavor of AR15.

You have to come at this from the right frame of reference - really ~60k performance SUV is a compromise until the kids go off to college and he has a full-on midlife crisis and buys a C8 Corvette or a Hellcat Challenger.

Until then - he wants to drive like a d-bag and have stop-light drag races with teenagers in lowered Civics. While he convinces himself that he is superior to them, because he's 30-years older with a career and more cash in the bank, all while longing for the freedom of their relatively responsibility-free lives. All of this alongside simultaneously contemplating why he didn't buy himself a vasectomy for a 25th birthday present, so he could be driving something else besides a boring dad mobile.

Heh.

I like this guy.

[RJ]

This. I looked at many of these options and ended up with a 4Runner TRD Pro.

One option I haven't seen mentioned is the Alfa Romeo Stelvio. I think it is one of the best looking in the class. Handling is supposed to be fantastic. 0-60 is 5.4 seconds in the standard model or 3.3 if you want to go over budget for the Quadrifoglio.

I'm not a huge fan of the partial self driving features. Once all cars are driving themselves I might consider it, but until then I don't really want anything taking the control away from me.

Also, none of them seemed reliable enough for me to spend my money on them, and I would have to imagine the Alfa Romeo would come in pretty close to the bottom of the pack in that regard.

Hahahaha.

I had a bunch of Alpha rentals when I lived in the UK in the 90s. I was even going to order a 164 as my company car, if I’d stayed beyond 5 years. Engine and gearbox were like dating a supermodel. But actually using an Alpha as a car - with trivial things like Windows you’d expect to stay up, or windscreen wipers that usually worked? Not so much.

[RJ]

It's underwhelming in a 3000 pound GTI. 0-60 in 6.0 seconds? Rob_S wants to buy an SUV that's that fast.



That 2018 Macan is 4,100-4,200 lbs, iirc, Rob. It was a slug.

[Darth_Uno]

I dunno dude, I'm at a point where I can buy pretty much whatever I like within reason, and got a crew cab Silverado (which was on the far right ass end of reason). Course that was also the only vehicle I wanted.

In regards to your point B: my parents bought a Lexus car, and paid less than what several people we know spent on loaded Big 3 SUV's. And they still got the "someone's making money" comments. Not that my parents give a shit, nor should you. But if that effects your social life, might be something to consider. 70k Tahoe doesn't raise an eyebrow, but a 50-60k Euro SUV has you rolling in dough.

[Bart Carter]

...One option I haven't seen mentioned is the Alfa Romeo Stelvio. I think it is one of the best looking in the class. Handling is supposed to be fantastic. 0-60 is 5.4 seconds in the standard model or 3.3 if you want to go over budget for the Quadrifoglio...

I have an Alfa Giulia. One of the best cars I have owned. Highly recommended. Drives like a sports car.

Far different than Alfas of old.

[RJ]

That 2018 Macan is 4,100-4,200 lbs, iirc, Rob. It was a slug.

Well I am wrong; the "new Macan" base model has a 2.0T apparently, still. So, no V-6 unless you spring for the S.

https://www.porsche.com/usa/models/macan/macan-models/

0-60 in 6.3s, per Porsche, though.

[RJ]

I have an Alfa Giulia. One of the best cars I have owned. Highly recommended. Drives like a sports car.

Far different than Alfas of old.

Good to hear. I still lust after an Italian car. Wierd, but true. Glad to know they are making them better these days. Car is a looker, for sure.

[JSGlock34]

Having driven the Q5, Macan, and Macan S - I unequivocally say Macan S hands down. I don't have as much wheel time behind a standard Macan, but as reported earlier I also found the base four-cylinder engine anemic (this engine is shared by the Q5 and base Macan). The Macan S is much more spirited. What separates the Macan from the Q5 is the steering and suspension; the Porsche DNA is evident when you steer a Macan - it feels precise and planted - whereas the Q5 displays more body roll.

There is also the SQ5 to consider; despite being an Audi fan, I doubt it will favorably compare to the Porsche.

[Poconnor]

My first thought about a performance SUV would be to not buy an Uber expensive new SUV. If I wanted a new off road SUV ? I would start and stop with a Toyota 4Runner. If I wanted something fast for the street? I would look for a used Chevy Tahoe. I just googled them found a 2011 Tahoe special service with 59k mikes for 15G. A plain white police Tahoe. Bigger brakes and a super charger- I would be laughing from gas station to gas station. Comfortable, fast, stealthy. What’s not to like?

[TGS]

rob_s,

Given you've thought about the impact in your social circles of showing up in European luxury car, I would strongly recommend you test drive the Explorer with the 3.0L engine. Contrary to the emotions evoked in some circles by European luxury brands, a nicely appointed Ford says, "Successful hard working American". For $60k, you should be able to get a fully maxed variant which is actually appointed quite nicely.

The Explorer is awesome. I had one for 2 years, but with the smaller engine. The handling is superb for an SUV, and the ride quality on the highway was simply great. The power of their higher end turbocharged 3.0L is fucking great, I've never felt an SUV move like that. IIRC it's about 400hp.

While the Tahoe is a good SUV in its own respect, the stability is nothing like the Explorer. You might think that handling qualities are only important for people actually doing track days, but I'd say the opposite. Handling is super important even for the standard American driver, where you WILL, at some point in your life, perform a swerve-to-avoid at high speeds.

There's very few cars that I felt handle as well at 100mph as the newer generations of the Ford Explorer. Remember, it's still the only pursuit rated SUV in production.

Can't hurt to test drive it.

[Bratch]

My wife had had the GLC300, which is the base for the AMG, for a couple years. We have been super happy with it. I have some concern for long term cost but for now we are as happy as we can be.

[RevolverRob]

While the Tahoe is a good SUV in its own respect, the stability is nothing like the Explorer. You might think that handling qualities are only important for people actually doing track days, but I'd say the opposite. Handling is super important even for the standard American driver, where you WILL, at some point in your life, perform a swerve-to-avoid at high speeds.

There's very few cars that I felt handle as well at 100mph as the newer generations of the Ford Explorer. Remember, it's still the only pursuit rated SUV in production.

Can't hurt to test drive it.

Have you driven the newest generation (https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a25834714/2020-ford-explorer-suv-photos-info/)?

I haven't had a chance yet, hence my asking. The now "previous" generation is, in my opinion an exceptionally good vehicle. People dog it a bit, because it's now a 8-9 year old platform, but they have been handling high miles and drive great in AWD form.

As a "field work vehicle" for doing herpetological collections, which is code for - driving down relatively dark roads at night, spotlighting, and pulling over to catch snakes and frogs - I actually have been looking hard at a LE Surplus Police Interceptor. The power of 3.5 Ecoboost gives me plenty of oomph, built in spotlights, a vinyl covered interior, and crash rated for a rear end collision to 70-mph all appeal.

Think about it like I'd be conducting traffic stops to catch herps not perps. - I feel like there is a good pun in here I haven't chiseled out yet. blues - help on this one?

[Trigger]

Go with the X3 M40. It drives extremely well. Great handling, great power. Wonderful interior. I prefer the 3.0 turbo 6 for both performance and mechanical reliability.

I like the Toyota 4Runner as well, but as a true 4-wheel drive off road vehicle. Performance-wise, it is a slug compared to the SAVs on your list.

[JAD]

We currently have a 2018 GLC. Do not recommend, unless you want to buy mine. Such a deal I can make you...

I don’t trust Volvo farther than I can spit, except for the 90 which is still built in Sweden. I’ve had four of them. All done with that now.

I haven’t owned an Audi but I’ve rented several, the most recent an A5 in Venice. I was underwhelmed by all of them.

I have owned an X5, 528, and Z4. I have loved all my BMWs. If I was going to get a small SUV again (I currently drive an outback because I was trying to be humble), the X3 would be it in a landslide. I couldn’t talk my wife into one last time which is why we have the GLC.

Of course, if I bought an X3, I would spend the rest of its life wishing it was an M3. So good luck with that.

[Bratch]

We currently have a 2018 GLC. Do not recommend, unless you want to buy mine. Such a deal I can make you...



What problems have you had with your GLC? Ours is a 16 and has been great other than the garbage Pirelli run flats and an intake hose that was replaced under warranty.

[Borderland]

We're in downsize everything mode ourselves. We have a medium size house on acreage 14 miles out of town, and it's a pretty damn small town. So we'll be moving in a year or two. Just started watching the real estate market this spring and thinking we need to rid ourselves of lots of stuff. We're selling the RV (travel trailer) and my land yacht 3/4 ton pickup. That thing is damn near impossible to park in a normal parking space. I've had people leave me nasty notes on my windshield telling me what a jerk I am for taking up so much space. Oh well. Hard to tow 7000 lbs up a 6% grade with a Subaru.

So what do I replace a full size diesel pickup with? That's a tough one. SUV or midsize pickup like a Tacoma? I've had 5 or 6 Toyotas (Tacoma and 4Runner) so I looked at those. Nothing appealed to me. Tacoma is just plain outdated. Cramped cab, no power seats and the engines are almost a generation behind everybody now. Where's the turbo? Why are they all crew cabs with TRD packages. Everyone must be going off road when they take their kids to soccer practice.

Stopped by and looked at a Honda Ridgeline. Not really a pickup but Car & Driver liked them enough to rate them #1 midsize pickup the last two years. I drove one and was impressed. Might just buy one when I get some of this RV stuff out of my driveway.

[rob_s]

In regards to your point B: my parents bought a Lexus car, and paid less than what several people we know spent on loaded Big 3 SUV's. And they still got the "someone's making money" comments. Not that my parents give a shit, nor should you. But if that effects your social life, might be something to consider. 70k Tahoe doesn't raise an eyebrow, but a 50-60k Euro SUV has you rolling in dough.

It’s pretty amazing. Like you mention, Tahoes and Expeditions get right nutty right quick in terms of price, but rock up in a BMW 1-Series and suddenly you’re being flashy. I’m less concerned about my personal social circles and more so want to stay relatively low key in my work circles.

[rob_s]

My first thought about a performance SUV would be to not buy an Uber expensive new SUV. If I wanted a new off road SUV ? I would start and stop with a Toyota 4Runner. If I wanted something fast for the street? I would look for a used Chevy Tahoe. I just googled them found a 2011 Tahoe special service with 59k mikes for 15G. A plain white police Tahoe. Bigger brakes and a super charger- I would be laughing from gas station to gas station. Comfortable, fast, stealthy. What’s not to like?

Mostly that it’s used, and that adding the blower, while an entertaining concept, would require some amount of fiddle-fuck (even if paying someone else to install) and undoubtedly would lead to reliability problems.

Cant say I don’t like the idea of a police model Tahoe doing 0-60 in 5 seconds. I’m just not willing to go through the hoops to get there. My life these days needs to be mostly plug-n-play. I’ve learned that you always pay, either in time or money, and these days I can’t spare the former.

[rob_s]

I have owned an X5, 528, and Z4. I have loved all my BMWs. If I was going to get a small SUV again (I currently drive an outback because I was trying to be humble), the X3 would be it in a landslide. I couldn’t talk my wife into one last time which is why we have the GLC.

Of course, if I bought an X3, I would spend the rest of its life wishing it was an M3. So good luck with that.

That’s a distinct possibility, but in my case I doubt it’d really be an issue. I’ve only owned one car since moving to S Florida (the rest have all been trucks or SUVs) and I’m not a fan of the low seat height nor the low ground clearance on our roads. I had a coworker once get water in the intake of his 3-series (not an M3, but still) and ruin the engine in a flooded parking lot that I just drove right through in the Tacoma I owned at the time.

[JAD]

What problems have you had with your GLC? Ours is a 16 and has been great other than the garbage Pirelli run flats and an intake hose that was replaced under warranty.

Tires are ass, and I am furious that I have to blow $$$ on tires on a new car to find out if the handling in the rain will no longer be life threatening. Sunroof selector button cracked randomly. Key detection often does not work and if you try to get service to address it they just replace the battery. “It ain’t the battery,” I said. “I just replaced it a month ago. By the way, why did the battery only last 9 months?” “Oh, they’re supposed to be changed every three months. And you’re supposed to wear gloves when you change it.” Yes, service tech, do tell me about these batteries you speak of.

[rob_s]

Tires are ass, and I am furious that I have to blow $$$ on tires on a new car to find out if the handling in the rain will no longer be life threatening. Sunroof selector button cracked randomly. Key detection often does not work and if you try to get service to address it they just replace the battery. “It ain’t the battery,” I said. “I just replaced it a month ago. By the way, why did the battery only last 9 months?” “Oh, they’re supposed to be changed every three months. And you’re supposed to wear gloves when you change it.” Yes, service tech, do tell me about these batteries you speak of.

Tires on new cars seem more and more to be like factory sights on a Glock.

Do you have the AMG or the 300? It appears that the AMG tires are “225/45R20 front and 285/40R20 rear, all-season Extended Mobility” while the 300 are “235/60R18 front and rear, all-season Extended Mobility”.

I hadn’t notice until now that the front/rear were different sizes on the AMG. That seems annoying from a tire rotation standpoint.

I’d suspect that your other issues would carry over to the AMG, however.

[JAD]

Tires on new cars seem more and more to be like factory sights on a Glock.

They're not THAT bad. Ameriglos are 20% of the cost of the gun; new skins would probably run me 4% of the cost of the car.

What is annoying is that the issues did not evidence until the first downpour. No way to spot that in a test drive.

It also sucks in snow, of which you care not. In general, the handling is so poor that I'm not 100% that it would be fixed with new skins, and I'm unwilling to spend the cash to find out. The car will be sold shortly. The Outback is 100% better than the Benz in literally every axis. If I didn't have an irrational affection for blue propellers, I'd say that someone is crazy to buy something other than an outback in this class.

And yet, I will sell the Outback sooner or later, because it isn't German. I will probably get a pickup truck, because I have a Y chromosome.


Do you have the AMG or the 300?

The 300. For now.

[JAD]

That’s a distinct possibility, but in my case I doubt it’d really be an issue. I’ve only owned one car since moving to S Florida (the rest have all been trucks or SUVs) and I’m not a fan of the low seat height nor the low ground clearance on our roads. I had a coworker once get water in the intake of his 3-series (not an M3, but still) and ruin the engine in a flooded parking lot that I just drove right through in the Tacoma I owned at the time.

I understand your circumstances and the small SUV is a logical alternative to a sedan or wagon in your context. I honestly do think you'd get the most enjoyment out of an X3. The maintenance experience is best in class, the handling is as good as this poor-handling platform gets, and it has the clearance you want.

[Bratch]

Tires on new cars seem more and more to be like factory sights on a Glock.

Do you have the AMG or the 300? It appears that the AMG tires are “225/45R20 front and 285/40R20 rear, all-season Extended Mobility” while the 300 are “235/60R18 front and rear, all-season Extended Mobility”.

I hadn’t notice until now that the front/rear were different sizes on the AMG. That seems annoying from a tire rotation standpoint.

I’d suspect that your other issues would carry over to the AMG, however.

The run flat Pirellis were completely bald at 20,000 miles. After some time on the Google machine this is par for the course. We replaced with Bridgestone Drive Guards with a 60k warranty.

[RJ]

The run flat Pirellis were completely bald at 20,000 miles. After some time on the Google machine this is par for the course. We replaced with Bridgestone Drive Guards with a 60k warranty.

I am attempting to accelerate the wear on my set of Pirellis I have on my car as rapidly as possible. I'm at 21K on the car (bought it used with 19K on it) and the rears are down to just above 3.5 mm. It's a '17 but based on the DOT codes the tires were made in 2018. They are not run-flats but they suck. They are noisy, and very squirmy in the rain.

I have the four replacement Michelin Pilot 4S in my shopping cart at tirerack.com, waiting until I can sneak the purchase past The Boss without her noticing (ok, at least not objecting).

[farscott]

The run flat Pirellis were completely bald at 20,000 miles. After some time on the Google machine this is par for the course. We replaced with Bridgestone Drive Guards with a 60k warranty.

That seems to be par for the course for Pirelli tires. My wife's 2017 Mustang GT came with Pirelli P Zero tires, and we had a belt separation at 24,000 miles. Those were replaced with Michelin Pilot Sports which I suspect will go almost double based on the wear ratings.

[RJ]

I hadn’t notice until now that the front/rear were different sizes on the AMG. That seems annoying from a tire rotation standpoint.



It is, and I've long suspected is purely for "looks". There are few cars that produce sufficient torque that a wider rear contact patch is actually required in the driving conditions the car was designed for (like, the track, say). They do look cool though.

[Bucky]

Timely thread. I’ve been considering trading in my Murano for something with a little more zip. The BMW was looking interesting. Then I started hearing rumors of an SS Blazer, and thought that’d be perfect. Might be too good to be true though.

[RevolverRob]

I am attempting to accelerate the wear on my set of Pirellis I have on my car as rapidly as possible. I'm at 21K on the car (bought it used with 19K on it) and the rears are down to just above 3.5 mm. It's a '17 but based on the DOT codes the tires were made in 2018. They are not run-flats but they suck. They are noisy, and very squirmy in the rain.

I have the four replacement Michelin Pilot 4S in my shopping cart at tirerack.com, waiting until I can sneak the purchase past The Boss without her noticing (ok, at least not objecting).

Are the Pirellis P-Zeroes? You may not find the 4S to be what you want in the scheme of things, depending on how grippy you want.

The Bridgestone Potenza RE-71R is a class leader in 200 TW tires. You certainly won’t get the same life as a set of Michelin 4S, but the grip will be insane, until you step up to the Pilot Sport Cup 2. Also, I think the Bridgestones come out almost 150 bucks cheaper than the French tires.

Don’t get me wrong, love me some Michelins. There are just, potentially, better tires for grip.

The new Yokohama Advan A052s may well take the 200tw crown from the Potenza RE-71R. Early test results indicate better feedback and more consistent performance at high degrees of slip. We’ll see in about 3-weeks what top competitors are running at the SCCA Solo Nationals. The Street Classes by and large require 200TW tires. The top competitors will likely be on Bridgestones or Yokos. We’ll see who comes out on top.

[RevolverRob]

That seems to be par for the course for Pirelli tires. My wife's 2017 Mustang GT came with Pirelli P Zero tires, and we had a belt separation at 24,000 miles. Those were replaced with Michelin Pilot Sports which I suspect will go almost double based on the wear ratings.

Maybe.

24k is decent mileage from a performance tire. They aren’t tires with 40k mile warranties for a reason.

Also bear in mind - exposure to cold and especially wet + cold dramatically decreases the life of performance summer tires. You can think about summer tires as having a life measured in heat cycles rather than miles. The colder the tire starts, the longer the heat cycle, the shorter the life. More highway miles at sustained temperatures gives you longer life. Keeping tires warm, prolongs their lives and allows them to come up to operating temp more quickly. This is why racing teams keep all of their tires wrapped in electric warming blankets.

Still don’t expect any summer tire to exceed 30k miles. And I would honestly not try to push them that far.

Summer tires use rubber compounds that degrade more rapidly than all-seasons. They really have limited lifespans, which you trade for traction.

That said Michelin builds the best tire on the planet for balance tire life and grip. It sacrifices compared to a dedicated grip tire, but for sustained street driving, it’s where it is at. I don’t think it’s a coincidence, that until they shortened the overall mileage route on One Lap of America all top competitors were running Pilot Super Sports. They were the only tires that could consistently give performance and make it through One Lap’s requirement of only 4 tires on the car + one full size spare of at least 200 TW rating.

[RJ]

Are the Pirellis P-Zeroes? You may not find the 4S to be what you want in the scheme of things, depending on how grippy you want.

The Bridgestone Potenza RE-71R is a class leader in 200 TW tires. You certainly won’t get the same life as a set of Michelin 4S, but the grip will be insane, until you step up to the Pilot Sport Cup 2. Also, I think the Bridgestones come out almost 150 bucks cheaper than the French tires.

Don’t get me wrong, love me some Michelins. There are just, potentially, better tires for grip.

The new Yokohama Advan A052s may well take the 200tw crown from the Potenza RE-71R. Early test results indicate better feedback and more consistent performance at high degrees of slip. We’ll see in about 3-weeks what top competitors are running at the SCCA Solo Nationals. The Street Classes by and large require 200TW tires. The top competitors will likely be on Bridgestones or Yokos. We’ll see who comes out on top.

Yep. P Zeros. OEM tire on the 991.2, apparently.

The Goodyear’s on my 981 were worn out, so I did get a set of PS4S before I sold it, which were excellent. Especially here in the wet. And smooth.

I’ll admit buying Michelin’s is almost reflexive after so many years and so many miles over a whole buncha cars. Not a track guy for sure, so overall it’s like hitting the Easy Button for me.

[RevolverRob]

I’ll admit buying Michelin’s is almost reflexive after so many years and so many miles over a whole buncha cars. Not a track guy for sure, so overall it’s like hitting the Easy Button for me.

I understand. I do pretty much the same thing.

I went and looked at this year's Top 10 of One Lap of America and noticed that the 8 of the top 10 finishers overall were running Michelin Pilot 4S - the other two were running BFGoodrich Continental ExtremeSport Contacts.

I just wish Michelin would make a summer tire for 15 and 16" diameter wheels.

For performance work it's all Yokohamas around my house, since I sold my last car with 18" wheels 5+ years ago. For all seasons though, the Michelin Defender reigns supreme.

[Doc_Glock]

I can’t begin to describe how transformative the 4S tires I put on the Z3 were. I have never been so impressed with a tire.

Now I worry about breaking something in the suspension...they grip so hard. And are so comfortable too. Just tried them in wet and they were really unbelievable.

[mmc45414]

I read enough to have the opinion they like it but did the normal nit picking. 0-60 in 5.2. The one they tested was all pimped out and over $60k, but the base is probably a solid value (without stuff like bigger brakes and summer tires that were expensive options) at $55k.

I am not quite done reading the article but my summary would be they would think it was phenomenal, if it wasn't an SUV that is badged ST.

[rob_s]

I read enough to have the opinion they like it but did the normal nit picking. 0-60 in 5.2. The one they tested was all pimped out and over $60k, but the base is probably a solid value (without stuff like bigger brakes and summer tires that were expensive options) at $55k.

I am not quite done reading the article but my summary would be they would think it was phenomenal, if it wasn't an SUV that is badged ST.

I assume this is in reference to the Explorer ST? maybe you meant to include a link?

[mmc45414]

I assume this is in reference to the Explorer ST? maybe you meant to include a link?

Yeah, if you are looking at Taptalk you do not see the message header:
The Car & Driver that just hit my mailbox has a Explorer ST road test

[rob_s]

Yeah, if you are looking at Taptalk you do not see the message header:
The Car & Driver that just hit my mailbox has a Explorer ST road test

oh, wow, nope can't stand tapatalk, I just never read the headers when they change like that!

[GJM]

Sounds like Audi is about to drop a number of RS models, including for the Q3.

[rob_s]

Sounds like Audi is about to drop a number of RS models, including for the Q3.

yeah I just saw a press release or two on the RS6 Avant (https://jalopnik.com/the-2020-audi-rs6-avant-looks-too-good-not-to-come-to-a-1837418658), but that'll probably top out over $100k. Using fake math, if we look at this progression of pricing:

2019 A3 Sedan
Starting at $33,300

2019 S3 Sedan
Starting at $44,500

2019 RS 3
Starting at $56,200

and then this starting point

2019 Q3
Starting at $34,700

then it's even possible than an RS Q3 might land in the stated price range. Presumably an RS Q5, however, would not.

[GJM]

I drove a RS 5 sport back last month, and it was an amazing performer. I assume that performance would carry over to the RS SUV models.

[Clusterfrack]

Audis are fun to drive until they start to fall apart. I’ll never own another VW product. I have so many examples from mine, and friends’ vehicles. I agree with JAD, BMW is the way to go. Or get a Tesla Model X.

[mmc45414]

Just finished the Explorer article, if I read it all at once my legs start to get numb...

$2500 for summer tires and $1700 for a sunroof both sound pretty silly, actually sounds like the base would be plenty nice.

They did say the transmission hunts a bit, might that be expected with ten ratios. Any delay probably is more about fly-by-wire and CPU speed.

ETA: I know this discussion is all about AWD and high sightlines, but one of their naysayer counterpoints essentially said this would be great if it were a sedan. Makes me wonder what a RWD lower version might be like, kinda like the LE Tahoe and the Tremor F-150.

[rob_s]

ETA: I know this discussion is all about AWD and high sightlines, but one of their naysayer counterpoints essentially said this would be great if it were a sedan. Makes me wonder what a RWD lower version might be like, kinda like the LE Tahoe and the Tremor F-150.

Like I said earlier, I think the car press is like the gun press and they approach things from an enthusiast perspective and then sell product to armchair guys. Handling, performance, etc. are great and super interesting to me to learn and read about but, I just about don't care in the slightest about slalom numbers for a car I'm going to drive back and forth 30 minutes each way to the office every day.

So I hear what the car media are saying in instances like this, but I kind of wish they'd shut up about it (no shit huh, the SUV doesn't handle like a sedan? man it's a good thing they put that in writing! Who'd have thought) and I generally just ignore it.

Meanwhile 99% of the Raptors sold never leave the pavement.

ETA:

One day I hope to have the free time on my hands to buy a Miata, wrench on it, and take it to track days. So I'm certainly not opposed to performance specs in cars. I obviously also care about performance as it relates to "real world" driving on south Florida roads (like the tire discussion earlier in the thread).

[TGS]

I can’t begin to describe how transformative the 4S tires I put on the Z3 were. I have never been so impressed with a tire.

Now I worry about breaking something in the suspension...they grip so hard. And are so comfortable too. Just tried them in wet and they were really unbelievable.

I completely hear you.

The best "upgrade" I made on my 05 WRX STi was to replace the wheels that were 5lbs lighter each wheel, a half inch wider, and wrap them in Bridgestone Potenza RE01R tires.

The grip was fucking insane. Game changing. It had more grip in the rain than all seasons did on dry pavement.

As RevolverRob pointed out, the service life was short but my god were they worth it. I kept all seasons on my current outback as I bought it while living in NJ and didn't have room, but I think now that I live in VA and have a house I'm going to invest in dedicated tires again. This car is getting sold within the next year as I'm going overseas, and when I get back I'm buying either an X1 or another Outback. Will do the wheels, and maybe upgrade brakes too.

[mmc45414]

I'm certainly not opposed to performance specs in cars. I obviously also care about performance as it relates to "real world" driving on south Florida roads.
I think it is the difference between street and track, and people get wrapped around the axle (see what I did there?...) over specs for specs sake. Pretty sure there is no street difference (on street tires) between a Mustang that has 600hp, 700hp, 800hp or 1000hp, but I have a buddy that will watch it on YouTube...

[mmc45414]

The best "upgrade" I made on my 05 WRX STi was to replace the wheels that were 5lbs lighter each wheel, a half inch wider, and wrap them in Bridgestone Potenza RE01R tires.
As RevolverRob pointed out, the service life was short but my god were they worth it.

I had a set of summer tires on my Focus ST, I tell people the problem with summer tires is they only lasted one summer (I drive a lot for work, just highway).

ETA: Another big problem in my climate is there is a at least a forth of the year, before and after winter, when it is too cold for them but no snow, so I put a bunch of extra wear on the Blitzaks. And last year before a trip to Chicago I was swapping them back on before I left. It got warm and cold and warm and... When I am around home I can just drive my truck.

[ranger]

Audis are fun to drive until they start to fall apart. I’ll never own another VW product. I have so many examples from mine, and friends’ vehicles. I agree with JAD, BMW is the way to go. Or get a Tesla Model X.

Amen on Audi. I had a 2003 Audi A4 Avant Quattro 3.0V6 I loved until it broke my heart with one major cost after another culminating with a dead transmission. Audi and VW are off the list. I just bought a loaded 2019 Subaru Outback Touring 3.6 and it is no Porsche or BMW but it is a lot of SUV for the money. I am not paying 60k when I can get “enough” for less than 40k.

[RevolverRob]

I had a set of summer tires on my Focus ST, I tell people the problem with summer tires is they only lasted one summer (I drive a lot for work, just highway).

A summer? Heck, I've torn through 200 TW tires in a DAY. But if you track a tire not meant for tracking that's pretty much what you'll do. Sustained driving at the limit will destroy any street tire in an afternoon, if you push hard enough. The grippier the tire the easier it is to drive it until it falls off.

But for the most part, you are correct, summer tires are made to last one summer basically. You can get ~20-25k miles on a set of summer tires if you drive like grandpa, but more likely 10-15k is your target. If you track, 10k miles is about where you'll settle. If you autocross closer to 20k generally, but depends on the tire.

For street driving, for the most part, unless you're running a high horsepower vehicle, you can generally get by with all-seasons. I'd argue in some ways all-seasons are more fun, because they slide more.

Michelin Pilot A/S is a great all-season tire, the Michelin Defender is also a good one. I'm on my second set of Defenders on the Mazda 2. I got 45k miles and four full Chicago winters on the last set. I don't bother with winter tires (they plow so often here). And with Konis and Corksport suspension bits, the 2 has plenty of grip with Defenders. Sure it would be faster on a summer tire, but for street driving it does great and while I can spin the tires in first gear, the car only has 100 horsepower, so I really don't need the stickiest tire in the world.

[Doc_Glock]

But for the most part, you are correct, summer tires are made to last one summer basically. You can get ~20-25k miles on a set of summer tires if you drive like grandpa, but more likely 10-15k is your target. If you track, 10k miles is about where you'll settle. If you autocross closer to 20k generally, but depends on the tire.

My last set (non Michelin) lasted ~4k miles I don't have high hopes for treadwear on the 4Ss

[JAD]

Amen on Audi. I had a 2003 Audi A4 Avant Quattro 3.0V6 I loved until it broke my heart with one major cost after another culminating with a dead transmission. Audi and VW are off the list. I just bought a loaded 2019 Subaru Outback Touring 3.6 and it is no Porsche or BMW but it is a lot of SUV for the money. I am not paying 60k when I can get “enough” for less than 40k.

I myself have a 2017 outback touring 3.6. It is a hard car to argue with. I should stick a blue propeller on the front and drive the wheels off it.

[JAD]

A summer? Heck, I've torn through 200 TW tires in a DAY. But if you track a tire not meant for tracking that's pretty much what you'll do..

Please kick yourself in the junk for using ‘track’ as a verb in that sense.

[Trigger]

My last set (non Michelin) lasted ~4k miles I don't have high hopes for treadwear on the 4Ss

I’ve been getting a consistent 20k+ miles out of three sets of Michelin Supersports on my 2011 M3. The original Continentals only lasted 9k miles. I’m on Sport 4S’s now; they grip and handle very well. Slightly smoother than the Supersports. I run the rears all the way to the cord and then replace all four. Can’t rotate the tires, and the fronts only have about 2/32nds left once the rears are shot. I would say I’m not nice to tires, but I don’t track this car (word used as a verb) nearly as much as the older M3.

[Hieronymous]

41546

I gather the ride height is not adequate for your needs, but I will just throw in I have had a very solid experience with my Audi all-road, the ride is smooth as butter, much nicer than the Q5 in my family. It seems to fly under the radar of most people, luxury, but a wagon, so no one really seems to notice. In terms of practicality, at hauls my two young kids and a Hungarian Vizsla nicely.

Good luck in your search!

[theJanitor]

After two Q5 2.0T, we leased an Acura RDX A-Spec for my wife. She's pretty darn happy with it, but it's only been a couple of months.

Last year I bought my mom a TLX A-Spec and it's awesome. I especially love the fact that it's non-turbo.

[GJM]

41546

I gather the ride height is not adequate for your needs, but I will just throw in I have had a very solid experience with my Audi all-road, the ride is smooth as butter, much nicer than the Q5 in my family. It seems to fly under the radar of most people, luxury, but a wagon, so no one really seems to notice. In terms of practicality, at hauls my two young kids and a Hungarian Vizsla nicely.

Good luck in your search!

Post picture of Vizsla.

[Hieronymous]

Post picture of Vizsla.

Ha. Sure. Hard to find one without the Orvis collar with my phone number prominently displayed. Meet Beatrix, our 34 pound runt of the litter who is happiest when running with reckless abandon, who will gladly swim but can’t be compelled to walk on wet grass to go to the bathroom, who curls up next to me (sometimes on top of me) and whose sweet and happy disposition brings my family joy on a daily basis.

41563

41564

[GJM]

Ha. Sure. Hard to find one without the Orvis collar with my phone number prominently displayed. Meet Beatrix, our 34 pound runt of the litter who is happiest when running with reckless abandon, who will gladly swim but can’t be compelled to walk on wet grass to go to the bathroom, who curls up next to me (sometimes on top of me) and whose sweet and happy disposition brings my family joy on a daily basis.

41563

41564

I would give this post 10 likes if I could.

[GJM]

Review of some of the larger options.

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/comparison-test/a28760023/2020-mercedes-benz-gle-vs-audi-q7-bmw-x5-porsche-cayenne/

[rob_s]

Review of some of the larger options.

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/comparison-test/a28760023/2020-mercedes-benz-gle-vs-audi-q7-bmw-x5-porsche-cayenne/

The new Cayennes, and Macans, are IMO the best-looking in their respective classes. The singular continuous tail light across the back is gorgeous, and their integration of the infotainment in the dash is just seamless.

[rob_s]

so it looks like Porsche didn't bring the Macan Turbo forward from the previous model year, but there is this (https://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?listingId=514977468&zip=33478&referrer=%2Fcars-for-sale%2Fsearchresults.xhtml%3Fzip%3D33478%26listing Types%3DUSED%26sortBy%3Drelevance%26incremental%3D all%26firstRecord%3D0%26marketExtension%3Don%26mod elCodeList%3DPORMACAN%26makeCodeList%3DPOR%26searc hRadius%3D200%26trimCodeList%3DPORMACAN%257CTurbo&listingTypes=USED&numRecords=25&firstRecord=0&modelCodeList=PORMACAN&makeCodeList=POR&searchRadius=200&clickType=listing)...

Which also makes me think, when factoring in insurance I wonder which of all of these options is going to be the least expensive? Particularly of the initial models I short-listed in my first post

Porsche Macan
BMW X3 M40i
Audi SQ5
Volvo XC60 T8
Mercedes GLC 43 AMG

[Hieronymous]

Rob, did you pull the trigger on one of your options? You could also be the first guy on your block to get the new Defender 110.

42678

[rob_s]

Rob, did you pull the trigger on one of your options? You could also be the first guy on your block to get the new Defender 110.

As the title implies, it's mostly a thought experiment or excuse to talk cars.

However, I like the look of the Defenders but the cost:performance ratio for my "urban" needs probably isn't there.

If i were buying, I still don't know what I'd actually get:
Maccan is what I emotionally want but not sure about the size, $:performance, and potential insurance costs. Oddly also the second slowest of this list, 0-60.
XC60 T8 gets me in the HOV lane (I think) which could be huge, but doesn't really have any emotional attachment potential.
X3 M40i, good performance, I like BMWs, but still unsure. Appears to be quickest 0-60 of the four.
Explorer ST has good size, but slowest of the 4 theoretically, and $60k for an Explorer?

If I went with the Maccan or the X3 I'd likely lease though. Scratch that "midlife crisis" itch, pay the price and move on. Would almost certainly buy in the case of the Explorer. Jury is still out on the XC60.

[rd62]

After my only foray into turbo charged bmw performance sedans I'd go with the Porsche. My bmw was beautiful, fast, and horribly unreliable. I dont hear the same about the Porsches but don't have personal experience in that brand at this time.

I'd drive another turbo BMW but I won't buy one.

[rob_s]

I don’t know that I’d ever buy an Alfa, but the Stelvio thing is kind of interesting. Closest competiror that I can see is the x2m m35 but that’s. It even really accurate.

front Rear cargo
Make Model Trim MSRP OAL OAW OAH Wheelbase Turn Leg Head Hip Leg Head Hip seat up seat down engine HP 0-60
BMW X2 M35i $46,450 172.2 71.8 60.1 105.1 37.2 40.3 39.8 36.7 37.1 21.6 2.0L TT 302 4.9
Alfa Romeo Stelvio Ti Sport AWD $47,545 184.6 66 111 36.6 40.2 35.9 38.9 18.5 56.5 2.0L i4 turbo 280 5.4

[farscott]

Before buying remember that Alfa Romeo's corporate parent is FCA, and there are parts from FIAT vehicles in the Alfa Romeo vehicles.

[TGS]

Not all 0-60 numbers are equal. I think you're getting too fixated on them, especially since you've already discarded "track performance" numbers over what's relevant as a daily driver. A car with a slightly slower 0-60 number can still be more fun to drive than a car with a faster 0-60 number depending on the torque curve, gear ratios, ect.

[rob_s]

Not all 0-60 numbers are equal. I think you're getting too fixated on them, especially since you've already discarded "track performance" numbers over what's relevant as a daily driver. A car with a slightly slower 0-60 number can still be more fun to drive than a car with a faster 0-60 number depending on the torque curve, gear ratios, ect.

It's a thought experiment. It's just a number. I think you're too fixated on what I'm fixated on. :p

that said, this is SE Florida, where there really isn't much opportunity for "fun" driving beyond getting on the on-ramp and hammering the gas, or stomping on the gas to pass that slow-ass carpetbagger in the left lane doing 55.

If I was looking for a "fun" car I'd just buy a used Miata for 1/6 the price and be done.

[Sigfan26]

I don’t know that I’d ever buy an Alfa, but the Stelvio thing is kind of interesting. Closest competiror that I can see is the x2m m35 but that’s. It even really accurate.

frontRearcargo
MakeModelTrimMSRPOALOAWOAHWheelbaseTurnLegHeadHipL egHeadHipseat upseat downengineHP0-60
BMWX2M35i$46,450172.271.860.1105.137.240.339.836.7 37.121.62.0L TT3024.9
Alfa RomeoStelvio Ti Sport AWD$47,545184.66611136.640.235.938.918.556.52.0L i4 turbo2805.4

While it is a bit larger than you probably want, I would still look at the new Explorer. My car was in for a warranty issue (paint on the hood bubbling up) and the dealership gave me a 4cyl model for a loaner for the last week. The 4cyl is actually much more livable than the previous base 6. I would look at an ST with a couple options if I were in the market. It doesn’t drive as big as it looks.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[rob_s]

While it is a bit larger than you probably want, I would still look at the new Explorer. My car was in for a warranty issue (paint on the hood bubbling up) and the dealership gave me a 4cyl model for a loaner for the last week. The 4cyl is actually much more livable than the previous base 6. I would look at an ST with a couple options if I were in the market. It doesn’t drive as big as it looks.

Particularly because if I do end up buying a small-ish suv it’ll be a couple of years from now and I’d be able to find one used, the Explorer is probably the one I’d want. The Volvo, just to get the T8 and get into the HOV lane legally, might be the one I’d actually buy. Don’t think I’d buy a hybrid used though. in fact, not sure I’d buy, and not lease, a hybrid at all.

However (and the Explorer isn’t the only vehicle guilty of this, the SRT versions of the Cherokee and Durango are even more guilty, albeit with even more performance) it’s hard to get over a $36k vehicle with $24k with of bolt- and glue-ons to make it a $60k vehicle. Yes, I realize it’s not quite as simple as that, but conceptually it still sticks in my head.

[rob_s]

pretty interesting to see what they can force out of the Explorer ST


https://youtu.be/pNM_ByO37oY

[Odin Bravo One]

Let’s do the same experiment but on a large sized SUV (Navigator XL, Yukon XL Denali, Suburban, Expedition), and cap the price tag at say $100k?

[mmc45414]

pretty interesting to see what they can force out of the Explorer ST
Wonder where it might come in with a 93 tune.

[UNK]

pretty interesting to see what they can force out of the Explorer ST


https://youtu.be/pNM_ByO37oY

Just sat in one of these in the showroom. Regular version not the ST. I was a bit disappointed in the drivers seat. Im not sure I could get really comfortable in it. Backseat room with the drivers seat adjusted for me was not nearly enough. Im 6’3”.

[rob_s]

Looks like Explorer sales aren’t going so well.
https://www.motor1.com/news/391770/ford-explorer-sales-production-problems/

[Bucky]

I have no idea why Chevy isn’t doing an SS Blazer yet. :(

[zaitcev]

Looks like Explorer sales aren’t going so well.
https://www.motor1.com/news/391770/ford-explorer-sales-production-problems/

I wonder why. It's a mystery!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emrawH_HsFY

[rob_s]

Looks like Ford is “slashing” Explorer prices, including $2!135 off the ST.

https://apple.news/ABEJznJFZMdOAMOipokPX_A

Of course, the new Explorer seems to get universally panned to maybe it doesn’t matter. Not a good vehicle at any price...?

[Corse]

Looks like Ford is “slashing” Explorer prices, including $2!135 off the ST.

https://apple.news/ABEJznJFZMdOAMOipokPX_A

Of course, the new Explorer seems to get universally panned to maybe it doesn’t matter. Not a good vehicle at any price...?

Find a CPO Macan S or GTS. I’ve had some time in the base and they are very nice, the power bump from the higher spec models would make them a perfect small/medium SUV.

[rob_s]

Find a CPO Macan S or GTS. I’ve had some time in the base and they are very nice, the power bump from the higher spec models would make them a perfect small/medium SUV.

that's pretty much where I wound up, but then we built a giant tiki hut and bought an RV and now my move "into town" is put off at least another few years and with it my dreams of a performance SUV since I will have need of a truck bed and more towing capacity for as long as we stay in this house. :p

But I still like the idea of a T8 Volvo XC60, if I could just get someone to confirm that it's "hybrid enough" to get me into the HOV lane. Maybe the 2021 F150 "hybrid" will be enough and I'll have my truck and my (legal) faster commute! :cool:

[rob_s]

So there’s an off chance this may go from thought experiment to reality to some degree. Couple of things in play though...

First, our move “into town” is pretty much canceled for the foreseeable future for a variety of reasons, so my “dreams” of a compact euro-SUV are pretty much dashed.

But, my current 2016 RAM seems to perhaps be ending its life cycle of being problem-free and entering that mid-life stage of odd maladies and rogue problems that require more medical attention than previous.

I’m somewhat eyeing the Durango RT (the SRT is probably not a good idea for me based both on price and the stupid way I drive) and *maybe* the Explorer ST.

I was hoping the new Tahoe was going to put the 6.2 in the RST trim as an option but it looks like they are limiting that e gone to the High Country starting at $75k, but the Tahoe is probably outside the scope of this thread as well.

[GJM]

By chance, my wife and I ended up with a Durango RT rental for three days last weekend. We had an Infiniti SUV the weekend before, and the Durango seemed much better. I could live with the Durango, but if the dollars work, the Cayenne is so much better.

[rob_s]

By chance, my wife and I ended up with a Durango RT rental for three days last weekend. We had an Infiniti SUV the weekend before, and the Durango seemed much better. I could live with the Durango, but if the dollars work, the Cayenne is so much better.

They have a refresh of the Durango for 2021 that more or less just updates the interior and some tech/convenience stuff that seems to me to be all welcome improvements over the current model.
https://www.caranddriver.com/dodge/durango

I keep going back to the certified pre-owned on Porsche’s site, looking at Cayennes. I could probably make the purchase price work (stupid camper van put a dent in the vehicle budget! ;) ) but I’d feel bad shoving a bunch of plywood in the back of it. :p
One example near me
https://finder.porsche.com/us/en_US/Cayenne-S-221785

[GJM]

The Cayenne is the best driving vehicle I have experienced, period.

[OldRunner/CSAT Neighbor]

Find a CPO Macan S or GTS. I’ve had some time in the base and they are very nice, the power bump from the higher spec models would make them a perfect small/medium SUV.

I may be returning to an S (previous owner) or GTS later next yr., very much the right size for a singleton w/ 3Gun gear > gun cart/long guns etc.

[Corse]

I may be returning to an S (previous owner) or GTS later next yr., very much the right size for a singleton w/ 3Gun gear > gun cart/long guns etc.

I like the size of the Macan, my wife really liked it too, but I’m not giving up my Cayman yet.

[Erik]

If you're willing to consider used, a loaded, low mileage Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT is in your price range. Add on a good warranty and you're still below budget. I bought one at the beginning of the year and I love it. I looked at the Durango SRTs as well. They're very nice if you need the extra seating. At the end of the day, I just liked the Jeep better. It's an absolute joy to drive.

[vcdgrips]

IIRC, when I would have my regular chats with TLG (RIP) as he was driving to/fro the range, he remarked on how capable the Cayenne was when he went to Porsche Driving School. He remarked on its prowess on both the track and the "off road" demo of the instructor and the drive time he managed to get as well. While that data point was for a 2nd gen car, I would think that the present 3rd gen car is better on every measure. FWIW.

[rob_s]

If you're willing to consider used, a loaded, low mileage Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT is in your price range. Add on a good warranty and you're still below budget. I bought one at the beginning of the year and I love it. I looked at the Durango SRTs as well. They're very nice if you need the extra seating. At the end of the day, I just liked the Jeep better. It's an absolute joy to drive.

it's something to consider for sure. There's a variety of reasons I prefer the Durango, and if I get one I'd love to get the updated "tech" and I think as I enter old age I'd rather have a fancy head unit than a faster car. :(

[Tod-13]

The Cayenne is the best driving vehicle I have experienced, period.

I know the question is totally different from the OP's, but how is the interior space? We went with a JLU (four door) Jeep Wrangler, since it gave us enough room for our Newfoundland Dog and his water rescue training equipment. (Think 140 lb giant dog and a two foot by three foot by three foot bag of gear and his folded up crate -- Jeep is big enough to unfold the crate and put him in it if desired.)

[RJ]

I guess I could update this thread: in April we traded our base ‘19 Cayenne for a ‘20 Lexus RX 350 for a number of what I’ll categorize as daily usability issues. It’s a great handling car, fun to drive, and one of Porsche’s best sellers, but the 9Y0 did not work out for us.

[OldRunner/CSAT Neighbor]

I like the size of the Macan, my wife really liked it too, but I’m not giving up my Cayman yet.

Cayman ya say, PM later now back on topic.

[GJM]

I know the question is totally different from the OP's, but how is the interior space? We went with a JLU (four door) Jeep Wrangler, since it gave us enough room for our Newfoundland Dog and his water rescue training equipment. (Think 140 lb giant dog and a two foot by three foot by three foot bag of gear and his folded up crate -- Jeep is big enough to unfold the crate and put him in it if desired.)

The Jeep is going to win in space because it is like a big, tall square.

[rob_s]

I guess I could update this thread: in April we traded our base ‘19 Cayenne for a ‘20 Lexus RX 350 for a number of what I’ll categorize as daily usability issues. It’s a great handling car, fun to drive, and one of Porsche’s best sellers, but the 9Y0 did not work out for us.

As someone who would be daily driving the thing and wouldn’t ever really get to take advantage of any handling characteristics, that’s my concern.

Straight-line acceleration on on-ramps and passing at highway speeds as well as traction in the rain are my primary wants/needs.

[Erik]

it's something to consider for sure. There's a variety of reasons I prefer the Durango, and if I get one I'd love to get the updated "tech" and I think as I enter old age I'd rather have a fancy head unit than a faster car. :(

FWIW, the sound system in the SRT is the best stock system I've ever had (not an incredibly high bar, granted, but still). It's whatever the JL Audio 12 speaker, subwoofer, whatever else option was. I don't know what the equivalent is in the Durango. I wouldn't have paid $80k for the vehicle new, but in the used market, it was a relative bargain. I suspect if you did go with a Durango SRT, you'd be pleased.

[El Cid]

Here you go Rob. $65k. Even says free shipping. Lol! ;)

https://www.armsunlimited.com/Street-Legal-Hummer-H1-HMMWV-Military-Humvee-p/m1123.htm

[RJ]

Straight-line acceleration on on-ramps and passing at highway speeds as well as traction in the rain are my primary wants/needs.

I can give you a laundry list comparison of the Lexus vs. the Cayenne, as an owner, explaining why we traded, but if those are the primary concerns, I’d get a Porsche, but put on a set of Michelin Pilot Sport 4S (if they came in Cayenne size, ours were 275/45R20 305/40R20). The handling is not unlike a large heavy 4 door AWD 911.

[Wondering Beard]

As someone who would be daily driving the thing and wouldn’t ever really get to take advantage of any handling characteristics, that’s my concern.

Straight-line acceleration on on-ramps and passing at highway speeds as well as traction in the rain are my primary wants/needs.

I don't remember whether you mentioned it at any point within the thread, but when it comes to the concerns/wants/needs you put forward, my Audi Q5 2.0T does all those very well, and it's quite nimble too.

[SD]

As we shop for a new SUV currently the #1 must have is enough dog comfort travel space, not sure the Sequoia falls into the "performance or even small-ish category", but it seems to keep rising to the top of our list as we shop and test drive.
I know the question is totally different from the OP's, but how is the interior space? We went with a JLU (four door) Jeep Wrangler, since it gave us enough room for our Newfoundland Dog and his water rescue training equipment. (Think 140 lb giant dog and a two foot by three foot by three foot bag of gear and his folded up crate -- Jeep is big enough to unfold the crate and put him in it if desired.)

[rob_s]

I don't remember whether you mentioned it at any point within the thread, but when it comes to the concerns/wants/needs you put forward, my Audi Q5 2.0T does all those very well, and it's quite nimble too.

I have the Q3 on my chart but not the Q5. The original concept was more compact, sporty, AWD for s Florida wet roads, and hybrid to (legally) get into the HOV lane as a side bonus. Basically a s Florida dad commuter while living on the zero lot line HOA world.

Now that we are staying in our sub-rural environment, most of that remains but with the added requirement to tow a trailer as well as a bit more cargo room for Home Depot trips.

I suppose that could make the Q5 a contender. Main complaint there is that they seems be doing what a lot of other makers are doing with their touchscreens and making them look like an afterthought. Looks like someone stuck a ac vent clip in the dash of their ‘97 Buick and mounted a Garmin...

[Wondering Beard]

I have the Q3 on my chart but not the Q5. The original concept was more compact, sporty, AWD for s Florida wet roads, and hybrid to (legally) get into the HOV lane as a side bonus. Basically a s Florida dad commuter while living on the zero lot line HOA world.

Now that we are staying in our sub-rural environment, most of that remains but with the added requirement to tow a trailer as well as a bit more cargo room for Home Depot trips.

I suppose that could make the Q5 a contender. Main complaint there is that they seems be doing what a lot of other makers are doing with their touchscreens and making them look like an afterthought. Looks like someone stuck a ac vent clip in the dash of their ‘97 Buick and mounted a Garmin...

Yeah, it's not pretty (though you can get most of that same info put on your dash, if you prefer that. I don't) and frankly, being a boomer, most of that electronic stuff confuses me anyway.

The cargo room is good enough, I imagine, for those Home Depot trips but I don't know what your Home Depot trip looks like so ymmv. I've never tried to tow a trailer, so I have no idea here.

What I can tell you is that, even at the "comfort" setting for driving (the 'dynamic' setting is pretty sporty), maneuverability is very nice. Its nimble, accelerates well, turns well, brakes well. I feel like I'm in a souped up compact sedan yet, it's quiet and very comfortable, and being higher, you can see a lot more and is easier for tall guys to get in and out.

Now, I'm no car geek and I don't have much experience with other cars to make good comparisons. I'm just a suburban guy who occasionally makes long trips, but deals with lots of highways just to get around (Northern Virginia is like that) and, for me, the Q5 works perfectly.

[rob_s]

It looks like the Q7 and Q3 have fixed the dash issues, and the Q7 appears to have a tow package available. Maybe the Q5 is due for a modern dash as well. The SQ5 with a refresh might be interesting...

[Tod-13]

As we shop for a new SUV currently the #1 must have is enough dog comfort travel space, not sure the Sequoia falls into the "performance or even small-ish category", but it seems to keep rising to the top of our list as we shop and test drive.

We were parked next to a Cayenne today at the range. Definitely a lot smaller than the 4 door JLU.

My friend's X5 seemed pretty big -- might be too nice if you have a drool-monster like our Newfie.

[ranger]

We are still enjoying our 2019 Subaru Touring with the 3.6 "6". My wife is a speed demon and that 6 moves the Outback at a good clip and we like the AWD for the rain, sleet, and once a year snow in NW GA. We plan on this being our retirement trip vehicle to see the US. We have a 2015 Ram 1500 for me to make range trips, pull the golf cart for Sporting Clays, and Home Depot runs.

[Doc_Glock]

I can give you a laundry list comparison of the Lexus vs. the Cayenne, as an owner, explaining why we traded, but if those are the primary concerns, I’d get a Porsche, but put on a set of Michelin Pilot Sport 4S (if they came in Cayenne size, ours were 275/45R20 305/40R20). The handling is not unlike a large heavy 4 door AWD 911.

That is interesting on the handling, I personally would like to see that laundry list.

Adding: I am more satisfied with our purchase of a 2019 Highlander XLE now, a year and a half into it than I was initially. It is just a great all around driving appliance, and while my personal preference is toward smaller, lighter cars that handle better, the Highlander just performs so well with day to day life, there is little to criticize.

[RJ]

I personally would like to see that laundry list.


You bet. We bought our '19 base Cayenne in maybe mid '19. After a few months of use, there were quite a few things that ended up bugging both of us, so we got a '20 RX350, as I mentioned.

Relative to the 9Y0: The Auto Start Stop feature could not be coded out (we asked). ASS engages at slow speeds, even at 1-2 mph. Wife consistently had the engine quit on her (and thus, lost all power assisted steering) parking at slow speed. She was Not Happy. I was almost T-boned twice as I crept forward to merge into a small gap, only to have the engine die, right when I needed to boot it into traffic. You could of course manually disengage ASS, but you had to do it every time you started the engine. Which was a surprisingly irritating PITA involving a few stabs at the touchscreen. We eventually coded "ASS OFF" to the "diamond" button on the steering wheel, but still, sometimes I just forgot. And, it had this peculiar characteristic, where if you didn't disable it at a certain exact point in the start up sequence, it didn't disable. Which of course the car didn't let you know, until the engine died. So that sucked.

Relative to the Lexus, the Backup Camera is smaller and harder to see. The RX 350 Door mirrors are much larger and have greater field of view.

Adaptive Radar cruise was optional on the Cayenne, but standard on the Lexus. Rear X traffic alert was not available for the Porsche. We got it on the Lexus.

Tires on the Lexus are Michelin LTX. All four are identical 235/55R20s. Replacements would be $892 a set, vs the non rotatable, Pirelli Scorpions 275/45R20 305/40R20, at $1,327 for four. The Lexus takes regular gas; the Porsche, only Premium.

The RX has a normal movable Shifter stalk vs Knob w a button. The Porsche shifter implementation was very counter intuitive. Months after owning the car, we were still putting into reverse, instead of pushing the button for "park". The Lexus has normal sized arm rests vs the ‘V’ grab handles on the Cayenne. These V handles look super cool in the marketing brochures where people are traversing the Serengeti, but they end up digging into your hips.

Lastly, and I think this was the final straw. The '19 and '20 Cayenne’s standard brakes have a persistent brake noise/graunching on slowing to a stop. We mentioned it at the first (unscheduled) service for an unrelated item (electrical fault with the left hand door mirror, fixed under warranty n/c). The tech write up was "no fault, normal operation." I took it back for the first actual scheduled service, and discussed it again with the service writer. Again, no fault. Then they sent me a video link, describing the "Porsche break noise" and why it was a aktchually a feature. Really. It wasn’t just us, quite a few owners are reporting noise issues w the standard brakes on the p-car forum I'm on (Rennlist). I investigated aftermarket pads but there were no options to be had for the 9Y0, just OEM. Living with this noise was pretty embarrassing. You arrive in your big flashy new SUV, pull in to a space, and all people hear is SCREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE. Nice.

So, after all that, we'd had enough, so we took it to the Lexus dealer. Mrs. RJ had had an '18 RX350 she really liked; but it did not have Nav. Plus the tech was due to be updated. Luckily for us, Lexus did in fact refresh the entire infotainment system in the '20 RX350. So we got a model with the Nav option, and a few more bells and whistles. Plus a towing package. We paid $46k OTD for the Lexus, vs $80+ for the Porsche. Sure, we lost some money. Sure, the Lexus is rated at 7.7s vs 5.9s to 60 mph. And has a much more isolated, floaty ride with less pickup at freeway speeds. But, you know what? She doesn't care. Money quote: "It’s not as exciting as the Cayenne, but I like it”. Happy wife, happy life.

For me? It's not as clear cut. The Cayenne would be the vehicle I would want if I needed to ferry four people and their luggage across country at 80+mph in crap weather in the dead of night. It was very planted. And quick (ish) for a large SUV. I suspect the "get up and go" might have been the AWD, which works full time, and very well. Understeer is dialed out somehow by the Porsche chassis magicians, it just grips. Sure, a little body roll, but it is well modulated.

I probably would have gotten along with the usability issues, but to be honest, having the engine conk out on you in traffic via the non-defeatable ASS system is simply unacceptable. And in an 80 thousand dollar performance SUV? To save gas? Are you kidding me? And the brakes. While they were undeniably effective, the noise they made at low speed really did detract from the enjoyment of the car.

And of course, Porsche's philosophy of making you pay for just about every useful option that you get these days with a Hyundai is maddening. You have to option the crap out of the car to get stuff that comes with vehicles at half the price point.

So, I don't see the value proposition of the Cayenne. Still, it's a popular car, and it and the Macan are their best sellers, but I would not buy one again.

[rob_s]

Volvo has now re-branded their "plug in hybrid" models as "recharge", and appears to have lowered prices on at least the XC60.
https://www.volvocars.com/us/v/cars/xc60-hybrid

They've also (re?)released the T8 V60 domestically which is intriguing (albeit expensive...)
https://www.volvocars.com/us/v/cars/v60-hybrid

My experience in Norway with the V90 T8 was awesome, and also indicated that you don't *have to* pug it in but can instead internally re-charge the batteries while driving on the gas

[JAD]

Despite the troubles I reported upthread, my wife replaced her Benz GLC with a Volvo V60. She doesn't like it -- it's not an SUV, and it turns out she actually wanted an SUV -- but it hasn't done anything too stupid yet.

The GLC pissed me off immeasurably. Terrible handling, run flat tires that went bald after 17K with no warranty, and -- and this is the kicker -- a pair of remote key fobs that ate batteries every two months, which three different service techs told me was either normal or my fault.

I am staggeringly pleased with my '17 3.6 Outback Touring. My wife is supposed to trade the Volvo for a Forester when the '21s come in. We shall see.

[farscott]

I would like to be surprised by the fact that Porsche has not been able to make start/stop properly function, but my professional experience with VW AG has me firmly in the, "Do not buy German if you value reliability" camp. The VW engineering approach is to write requirements documents that are full of stupidity, require an industry non-standard method that performs poorly at more cost with more complexity, assign a program manager with no expertise in the commodity, outsource the engineering to the supplier with the lowest unit cost, let the buyer choose the winning bid about six months after the program should have been started, have the design checked on paper by someone with no practical experience, have the software checked for coding standards but not for function (why start/stop does not work -- but the code is properly commented), insist on using twenty-three parts when one will do, go into production, and then demand the supplier redesign in the first years of mass production to further lower cost.

Then be surprised that the vehicle is a turd at three years into ownership. Every OEM has issues. But VW AG makes FCA look like the Japanese when it comes down to reliability and durability.

[rob_s]

Then be surprised that the vehicle is a turd at three years into ownership. Every OEM has issues. But VW AG makes FCA look like the Japanese when it comes down to reliability and durability.

VW or otherwise, I wouldn't plan on owning any German car for more than 3 years.

Even in 2020, if what I cared about was driving a car until the wheels fell off and I was out bragging to all my friends about the odometer rolling over and lack of basic convenience "but it's paid for", I'd still buy Japanese.

If I wind up with any sort of "luxury" brand it'll be a short-lived experience I'm quite sure. Get something fun-ish, keep it for a couple of years, and get rid of it. I might even do something completely stupid and lease the thing.

My current 2016 RAM 1500 sport appears to be living up to my expectation of shitting the bed <5 years/100k so all of this may get moved from "thought experiment" to "reality" a little quicker than I'd planned.

[SD]

After lots of test drives, the wife selected the Lexus GX-460, her Volvo T-60 is happily traded. Sequoia was the runner up but Lexus really was aggressive with pricing and Toyota was playing the water cooler game.

[RJ]

I would like to be surprised by the fact that Porsche has not been able to make start/stop properly function, but my professional experience with VW AG has me firmly in the, "Do not buy German if you value reliability" camp. The VW engineering approach is to write requirements documents that are full of stupidity, require an industry non-standard method that performs poorly at more cost with more complexity, assign a program manager with no expertise in the commodity, outsource the engineering to the supplier with the lowest unit cost, let the buyer choose the winning bid about six months after the program should have been started, have the design checked on paper by someone with no practical experience, have the software checked for coding standards but not for function (why start/stop does not work -- but the code is properly commented), insist on using twenty-three parts when one will do, go into production, and then demand the supplier redesign in the first years of mass production to further lower cost.

Then be surprised that the vehicle is a turd at three years into ownership. Every OEM has issues. But VW AG makes FCA look like the Japanese when it comes down to reliability and durability.

Yeah the whole ASS thing was a bit of a disappointment. My understanding is that Porsche tweaked the algorithm in '17 to eke out a bit more MPG in the certification testing (not sure if Germany, or US) for mileage.

Oddly enough, my 991.2, and 991.2's in particular, seem to be pretty reliable, overall. There are very few really issues being reported on the forums. Certainly nothing like the IMS bearing issue of '99 - '06. The water pump on the '17s seems to have been a problem, and to a lesser degree on the '18/'19, but most are getting replaced n/c by an upgraded part as they fail (very slow leak.) Door panel warping is a theme with the coupe's; I'd heard about but did not experience it with my 981S. Mine are fine. The 3.0 T engine seems to be aging well; being produced only three years in the model run at the late end of 991 production, before the switch over to 992s, for the '20 model year. It certainly boots my low end poverty spec Carrera along up to the limit of my talent, that's for sure.

[RJ]

After lots of test drives, the wife selected the Lexus GX-460, her Volvo T-60 is happily traded. Sequoia was the runner up but Lexus really was aggressive with pricing and Toyota was playing the water cooler game.

Grats. We are really really happy with our little RX350, going on almost 10K miles now.

[Mitch]

My current 2016 RAM 1500 sport appears to be living up to my expectation of shitting the bed <5 years/100k so all of this may get moved from "thought experiment" to "reality" a little quicker than I'd planned.

What’s happening?

[ranger]

What’s happening?

I am curious too - my 2015 Ram 1500 Hemi Laramie 4x4 is past 100k now and i am debating keeping for a couple of more years of getting a newer Ram/F150. Thanks

[rob_s]

What’s happening?

All sorts of little annoying gremlins. Automatic hi beams won’t come on, which in my truck appears to mean I get no Ho beams at all. Something is wrong with the gas cap that has the “gas cap open” light staying on. The fuel tank sensor went (&750 to replace) and something in the antilock breaks failed that out me into a double-270-degree-spin in I95 at 70 mph in the rain. There’s also some sort of ticking sound when the truck starts up that wasn’t there when it was new. The battery light comes on from time to time even though the battery is pretty new and no actual problems seem to be surfacing.

with all of the above, and some I’m sure I’ve forgotten, I’m just sort of waiting for the shoe to drop, and I don’t really trust the truck.

using the various build-n-price a new truck outfitted like I’d want it, which is pretty similar to exactly what I have now, appears to be pushing $70k, which I’m not too thrilled about.

[BehindBlueI's]

All sorts of little annoying gremlins. Automatic hi beams won’t come on, which in my truck appears to mean I get no Ho beams at all. Something is wrong with the gas cap that has the “gas cap open” light staying on. The fuel tank sensor went (&750 to replace) and something in the antilock breaks failed that out me into a double-270-degree-spin in I95 at 70 mph in the rain. There’s also some sort of ticking sound when the truck starts up that wasn’t there when it was new. The battery light comes on from time to time even though the battery is pretty new and no actual problems seem to be surfacing.

with all of the above, and some I’m sure I’ve forgotten, I’m just sort of waiting for the shoe to drop, and I don’t really trust the truck.

using the various build-n-price a new truck outfitted like I’d want it, which is pretty similar to exactly what I have now, appears to be pushing $70k, which I’m not too thrilled about.

The ticking is generally one of two things if you have the hemi. A broken exhaust manifold bolt is fairly common. Apparently the exhaust manifolds flex enough as they heat/cool to snap them at some point. The good news is the replacements don't break as long as you resurface the existing manifolds and DON'T replace them. A new set starts the flexing process over again. The other is "hemi tick" which is usually solved by a heavier weight synthetic oil but is more a "quality of life" issue then anything else.

My 2012 remains trouble free, so far.

[ranger]

All sorts of little annoying gremlins. Automatic hi beams won’t come on, which in my truck appears to mean I get no Ho beams at all. Something is wrong with the gas cap that has the “gas cap open” light staying on. The fuel tank sensor went (&750 to replace) and something in the antilock breaks failed that out me into a double-270-degree-spin in I95 at 70 mph in the rain. There’s also some sort of ticking sound when the truck starts up that wasn’t there when it was new. The battery light comes on from time to time even though the battery is pretty new and no actual problems seem to be surfacing.

with all of the above, and some I’m sure I’ve forgotten, I’m just sort of waiting for the shoe to drop, and I don’t really trust the truck.

using the various build-n-price a new truck outfitted like I’d want it, which is pretty similar to exactly what I have now, appears to be pushing $70k, which I’m not too thrilled about.

Yes, as I look at replacing my Ram I quickly get into a $70k truck. Assume $10k in incentives put me at $60k - $20k tradein = $40k out of pocket. My 2015 starts looking pretty good. I could just keep my Ram and buy another Subaru Outback with the $40k.

[rob_s]

Yes, as I look at replacing my Ram I quickly get into a $70k truck. Assume $10k in incentives put me at $60k - $20k tradein = $40k out of pocket. My 2015 starts looking pretty good. I could just keep my Ram and buy another Subaru Outback with the $40k.

Despite my annoyance at FCA with the current truck, it’s paid off and has been for awhile, and the “smart” thing is probably to just bite down and pay for the various fixes. My concern is the can of worms that always seems to open up. Seems like once you start chasing gremlins you never stop, and eventually you wind up wishing that you’d just cut your losses from the start.

I’ve also done some of the math and started looking at what it looks like to keep the truck *and* get something else “fun”. Of course, we also did just buy a campervan so...

I wish I didn’t feel like I needed the truck. And I don’t “need” it, having one just makes life easier and doesn’t have much daily downside. Yes I *could* get an SUV and use my trailer for Home Depot runs, but it’s so much easier to just stop in town on the way home from work when I get a rare “early release” day vs having to either plan for it and take the trailer to work or make a special trip.

This whole thought experiment started when I thought we were moving into town which would have simultaneously negated most of the “need” for a truck as well as made it way less of a hassle to just rent the Home Depot $20 truck on the rare cases I’d still need one.

If I could just convince one of the big three to make an on-road focused AWD sport truck like the Lightning (not AWD, I know) or the Cyclone (which, IIRC, was AWD).

[ranger]

What is funny about the Ram is wife put most of miles on it. She runs all over Georgia visiting kids/grandkid. I bought the Ram for me to go to the range and pull my Sporting Clays golf cart. Frankly do not need new truck to go to range/Sporting Clays. If I buy a nice new truck I will be in a Subaru Outback :)

[mmc45414]

It was not really the master plan, but I am glad we got the cheap fun car (2016 Focus ST) at almost the same time as the truck and ran up 112k on it (probably be at least another 30k without the CV furlough). This leaves the paid off 2015 F150 with still under 80k.

Though the damn thing did just need a couple of expensive coil packs just out of extended warranty.

Everything costs so much now, but the more basic trucks still seem to have some value.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

[BehindBlueI's]

If somebody wants a Ram, this is a good time to do it. The Black Friday "Employee Pricing for everyone" thing is going on. We bought my wife's 200S in '15 when they ran the same deal.




If I could just convince one of the big three to make an on-road focused AWD sport truck like the Lightning (not AWD, I know) or the Cyclone (which, IIRC, was AWD).



A "trackhawk" Ram would be neat.

[rob_s]

Watched another video about the Explorer ST this morning. Short of seeing one in person, which I’m not quite ready to do given my disdain for car salesmen and a lack of local auto shows due to COVID (I once settled on a 2006 GTO based on seeing one at a show, crawling all around it, then finding a dealer I could conduct business with via email. Best car-buying experience of my life.), I’m changing my opinion of them from negative, to lukewarm, to somewhat positive.

If I was actually buying in the next couple of months I’d probably be trying to hold out to see the new 2021 Durango R/T in person and drive both that and the ST. The Durango has a few advantages, price being not the least of which, but also having less performance.

Sadly the XC60 has dropped off my radar, despite an increase in availability of the T8, now that they are marketing a whole line of “recharge” models, and a seeming reduction in price, I cannot seem to get anyone to confirm or deny that it is sufficiently “hybrid” to get me into the HOV lane legally, and I’ve come to figure out that the towing capacity is woefully low, making it potentially unable to even tow my golf cart to the sporting clays range, which is a necessary function of any vehicle of mine.

[rob_s]

this may be a case of the olds, but it's sounding like the 2021 ST still doesn't come with Sync 4, meaning no wireless Apple Carplay. The 2021 Durango, despite being slower, just moved to the front of the line based solely on simple convenience. Word is the 2021 Durango *will* have it (and frankly the 2020 may already).

[rob_s]

man I'm liking this thing more and more...


https://youtu.be/WuBtj6QR6oc

[UNK]

Just for curiosity what about the lordstown all electric pickup? With the larger battery you get 500 mile range its a crew cab and can tow 7000 lbs. it also has a $7500 tax credit and true all wheel drive.

[rob_s]

Dodge finally got the 2021 Build-n-Price (https://www.dodge.com/bmo.html#/models/2021/durango) up. Now I really, really want a Durango R/T AWD with Tow-n-Go package! They have grey seats for 2021 as well, which I like.

I have no real intention of towing, but there's some cools stuff here nonetheless.

Tow N Go Package
$4,995

145 MPH Maximum Speed Calibration
160 MPH Primary Speedometer
180-Amp Alternator
20-Inch x 6.5-Inch Aluminum Spare Wheel
295/45ZR20 BSW All-Season Tires
Active Noise-Control System
Adaptive Damping Suspension
Automatic Headlamp Leveling System
Black Brembo Front Caliper Brakes
Body-Color Rear Fascia
Class IV Receiver-Hitch
Compact Spare Tire
Drive Modes - Sport/Track/Tow/Snow
Electronic Limited-Slip Differential Rear Axle
Heavy-Duty Engine Cooling
High Performance Exhaust
High Performance Suspension
Performance Tuned Steering
Pirelli Brand Tires
Quadra-Trac® Active On-Demand 4WD
Run Flat Tires
Trailer Brake Controller
20-Inch X 10-Inch Lights-Out Aluminum Wheels (Unavailable with some configurations)
20-Inch x 10.0-Inch Hyper Black Aluminum Wheels (Unavailable with some configurations)

[LittleLebowski]

Posting from my work, so I don't have time to research my own question: was the Durango updated for 2021 like the Jeep Grand Cherokee (same vehicle under the skin)?

[rob_s]

Posting from my work, so I don't have time to research my own question: was the Durango updated for 2021 like the Jeep Grand Cherokee (same vehicle under the skin)?

not sure about the 2021 Cherokee as I kind of stopped following it, but the Durango was "refreshed" for 2021. New body work, improved the cockpit and made it more current, 10.1" touchscreen running Uconnect 5 which includes wireless carplay, etc.

Historically for the last couple iterations the Durango and Grand Cherokee have sat on the same basic underpinnings so I'd imagine that would continue.

For whatever reason the Durango has always reported a tighter turning radius on the same chassis, despite being overall larger by almost a foot.

[rob_s]

Posting from my work, so I don't have time to research my own question: was the Durango updated for 2021 like the Jeep Grand Cherokee (same vehicle under the skin)?


not sure about the 2021 Cherokee as I kind of stopped following it, but the Durango was "refreshed" for 2021. New body work, improved the cockpit and made it more current, 10.1" touchscreen running Uconnect 5 which includes wireless carplay, etc.

Historically for the last couple iterations the Durango and Grand Cherokee have sat on the same basic underpinnings so I'd imagine that would continue.

For whatever reason the Durango has always reported a tighter turning radius on the same chassis, despite being overall larger by almost a foot.

Looks like it’s the 2022 for the Grand Cherokee

https://apple.news/A4HVafocIRB6Sdi1MyELKbg

[ranger]

I am thinking about keeping the 2015 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 but buying a 2017-2018 Forester XT Touring for running around when I do not need a truck (90+%). 2018 is last year for the XT Turbo four.

[Navin Johnson]

man I'm liking this thing more and more...


https://youtu.be/WuBtj6QR6oc


Generally speaking trucks are the life-blood of the big three. They are the best built and designed products they make as the market is VERY competitive. The Durango will at best be equal to your Ram 1500 experience.

[Navin Johnson]

Just for curiosity what about the lordstown all electric pickup? With the larger battery you get 500 mile range its a crew cab and can tow 7000 lbs. it also has a $7500 tax credit and true all wheel drive.

An all electric F 150 would be a far better choice as Ford had been building trucks much longer than Lordstown.

Tesla is at the bottom of all brands for initial quality. How will a newer company likely do?

[rob_s]

Posting from my work, so I don't have time to research my own question: was the Durango updated for 2021 like the Jeep Grand Cherokee (same vehicle under the skin)?


not sure about the 2021 Cherokee as I kind of stopped following it, but the Durango was "refreshed" for 2021. New body work, improved the cockpit and made it more current, 10.1" touchscreen running Uconnect 5 which includes wireless carplay, etc.

Historically for the last couple iterations the Durango and Grand Cherokee have sat on the same basic underpinnings so I'd imagine that would continue.

For whatever reason the Durango has always reported a tighter turning radius on the same chassis, despite being overall larger by almost a foot.


Looks like it’s the 2022 for the Grand Cherokee

https://apple.news/A4HVafocIRB6Sdi1MyELKbg


https://youtu.be/19eHkDkalF0

[rob_s]

starting to think the Mustang Mach E GT is the answer here...

[GJM]

I drove a Tesla Y and 3 on Wednesday, and their acceleration was incredible.

[OldRunner/CSAT Neighbor]

Passed on driving a Taycan b/c I need a small SUV so waiting on the '23 Macan to drop + it gives more time for the ETX infrastructure :confused: to develop.

[GJM]

Passed on driving a Taycan b/c I need a small SUV so waiting on the '23 Macan to drop + it gives more time for the ETX infrastructure :confused: to develop.

My wife and I drove the base model Taycan Cross, and absolutely loved it. We also feel like it is a tad early for non Tesla Ev’s yet, and want to let things develop. Thinking of a 3 Long Range to dip into the EV thing.

[vcdgrips]

My kids attended a private college prep school from pre -k to 12. Full of folks with money and a profound interest in EVs

I have spoken to dozens of Tesla drivers in the past 10ish years. Indeed, many were/are are 3 Tesla families (dad has the s sedan , mom has the x suv, kid(s) have the smaller 3 sedan.)

To a person, they love the car and the performance, when it works.

To a person, they would NEVER own/lease/drive one that did not have a bumper to bumper warranty.

I say this as someone who would lease a modestly equipped 3 tomorrow if my financial circumstances allowed it.

[rob_s]

Passed on driving a Taycan b/c I need a small SUV so waiting on the '23 Macan to drop + it gives more time for the ETX infrastructure :confused: to develop.

if you're looking at Taycan money, there's the Rivian R1S for half the price, with more cargo carrying, and just as fast...
https://rivian.com/r1s

[Bio]

if you're looking at Taycan money, there's the Rivian R1S for half the price, with more cargo carrying, and just as fast...
https://rivian.com/r1s

The R1S isn't being manufactured yet.

[rob_s]

The R1S isn't being manufactured yet.:p

R1T and a camper shell then?
:p:p

[Borderland]

Posting from my work, so I don't have time to research my own question: was the Durango updated for 2021 like the Jeep Grand Cherokee (same vehicle under the skin)?

Don't do that.

[Borderland]

man I'm liking this thing more and more...


https://youtu.be/WuBtj6QR6oc

The Cement color is attractive. You'll see lots of that in 2022. Dodge has done the engineering to be competitive. I wish I could say the same about Toyota.

[Borderland]

So, I guess it depends on what you want it to drive like - a car, a performance sedan, or a truck?

The Macan/Q5 are effectively the same vehicle. And they share the same underlying chassis as the Audi A-series sedans. They drive far more like front-wheel drive sedans with some power going to the back wheels, than a RWD car.

The BMW is based on the shared platform for their sedans and roadsters, but is built from the ground up to be RWD. Adding X-Drive, makes it drive more like an all-time 4WD Jeep than an AWD car, which I actually find better, it really digs in and transfers the power around as necessary. I want to think the BMW has a higher towing capacity than the Porsche/Audi, but I could be wrong.

I can't comment on the Volvo's drivetrain. I haven't driven a new Volvo in 20 years. I don't think I could be convinced to buy one, lots of electrical problems with them right now.

The Explorer - well the new 2020 is a RWD chassis that is getting rave reviews right now. I haven't had a chance to drive one, but I'm definitely interested in the ST model myself. The previous gen was definitely more car than truck like, but the 3.5 AWD ecoboost Police Interceptor package is a fun vehicle to drive. Much faster than an old Crown Vic and extremely stable at speed.

That should give the soccer moms a thrill but it lacks the Land Rover pedigree. It's still a Ford.

[GJM]

Passed on driving a Taycan b/c I need a small SUV so waiting on the '23 Macan to drop + it gives more time for the ETX infrastructure :confused: to develop.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/2022-porsche-taycan-a-tesla-rival-thats-eye-catchingbut-pricey-11634230799?mod=mhp

2022 Porsche Taycan: A Tesla Rival That’s Eye-Catching—but Pricey
The all-electric Porsche Taycan Turbo S Cross Turismo costs more and has a shorter range than Tesla. But with relatively few in production, this gorgeously styled roadster has the power to make people look twice.

[OldRunner/CSAT Neighbor]

https://www.wsj.com/articles/2022-porsche-taycan-a-tesla-rival-thats-eye-catchingbut-pricey-11634230799?mod=mhp

2022 Porsche Taycan: A Tesla Rival That’s Eye-Catching—but Pricey
The all-electric Porsche Taycan Turbo S Cross Turismo costs more and has a shorter range than Tesla. But with relatively few in production, this gorgeously styled roadster has the power to make people look twice.

Alright ya got me stopping by Park Place next month but having just lateraled from a Ridgeline & CGTS to an XC60 I'll only be wasting my SA's time until the grid builds out more in 2-3 yrs.

[Doc_Glock]

https://www.wsj.com/articles/2022-porsche-taycan-a-tesla-rival-thats-eye-catchingbut-pricey-11634230799?mod=mhp

2022 Porsche Taycan: A Tesla Rival That’s Eye-Catching—but Pricey
The all-electric Porsche Taycan Turbo S Cross Turismo costs more and has a shorter range than Tesla. But with relatively few in production, this gorgeously styled roadster has the power to make people look twice.

The Taycan is by far my favorite E vehicle right now. And it’s built by a real car company.

[LittleLebowski]

Don't do that.

I didn’t, you quoted a near year old post. I went F150.

[Unobtanium]

I considered many of the vehicles in the OP, but I live further from town. Mpg and reliability are key factors for me. I ended up going with a Rav4 Prime. Currently I'm averaging about 2.5 tanks (11 gal from light on, to full) per month (about 2500mi driving). While one typically does not consider a rav4 a performance vehicle, it does do okay, as my videos below will show. The handling isnt on the level of the AMG and M cars, but 65mpg buys a lot of tolerance, and the super low CG at least keeps it pretty flat.

78902
78903
78904


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7C1DVwsxvPE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IzcWRUuqLug

[Unobtanium]

I like it in concept, but it's a 6-second vehicle at best until you get to the SRT which puts it above my imaginary $60k "limit".

The good news, however, is that it's closer in OAL (at 189") to the XC60/Macan/SQ5/X3 (~185") than it is to the Explorer (199"). In a 20ft garage every little bit helps.

I can't believe this current design has been around since 2011!
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a27891433/jeep-grand-cherokee-2021-spied/

Stop looking at 0-60. Look at 5-60. Most magazines brakeboost the shit out of automatics to get the very best times. Your real world 0-60 in YOUR hands can be 1+ second worse, unless you plan to brakeboost, as well. 5-60 will tive a kuch more accurate sense of an SUV/CUVs real world performance as far as you're concerned.

[rob_s]

Stop looking at 0-60. Look at 5-60. Most magazines brakeboost the shit out of automatics to get the very best times. Your real world 0-60 in YOUR hands can be 1+ second worse, unless you plan to brakeboost, as well. 5-60 will tive a kuch more accurate sense of an SUV/CUVs real world performance as far as you're concerned.

It’s just a number and a relatively consistent way to compare across models. I’m not really concerned with how it relates to “real world” just how they relate to each other.

[Unobtanium]

It’s just a number and a relatively consistent way to compare across models. I’m not really concerned with how it relates to “real world” just how they relate to each other.

Not really. Take the Stelvio vs the CX5 turbo. Stelvio will do 0-60 in 5.4 if you brake boost it. Cx5 turbo isnt set up for that and does 6.1. However, floor both cars off idle, and you end up with a hair under 7 seconds 0-60 out of them both. So you might be thinking you're getting a significantly faster car with the Stelvio, and then get next to a CX5, and if you don't launch it, it may eat your lunch, and at least will keep up with you. Had you compared 5-60's, youd get the fact that the vehicles accelerate remarkably similarly in nonabusive, typical use. Also compare 30-50 and 50-70 times. All that 0-60 tells you is a very narrow set of circumstances, and a faster 0-60 car may actually be slower in every other way (extreme example is the Evo 8) vs another.

*also imagine how annoyed I was that my cx5 did 0-60 in 7 seconds instead of 6 when I drove it...my rav4 prime does an honest 5.7 for me, though. Hugely faster in the real world, and it feels it, too!

[rob_s]

Not really. Take the Stelvio vs the CX5 turbo. Stelvio will do 0-60 in 5.4 if you brake boost it. Cx5 turbo isnt set up for that and does 6.1. However, floor both cars off idle, and you end up with a hair under 7 seconds 0-60 out of them both. So you might be thinking you're getting a significantly faster car with the Stelvio, and then get next to a CX5, and if you don't launch it, it may eat your lunch, and at least will keep up with you. Had you compared 5-60's, youd get the fact that the vehicles accelerate remarkably similarly in nonabusive, typical use. Also compare 30-50 and 50-70 times. All that 0-60 tells you is a very narrow set of circumstances, and a faster 0-60 car may actually be slower in every other way (extreme example is the Evo 8) vs another.

*also imagine how annoyed I was that my cx5 did 0-60 in 7 seconds instead of 6 when I drove it...my rav4 prime does an honest 5.7 for me, though. Hugely faster in the real world, and it feels it, too!

Oh for fucks sake.

You win. You are more internet car knowledgeable than me.

Congratulations.

Can we get off this one stupid bit of minutiae now?

[Unobtanium]

Oh for fucks sake.

You win. You are more internet car knowledgeable than me.

Congratulations.

Can we get off this one stupid bit of minutiae now?

Sure. I was under the impression that a 1 second disparity in 0-60 was of import. I simply mistook your OP.

[TGS]

Sure. I was under the impression that a 1 second disparity in 0-60 was of import. I simply mistook your OP.

Welcome to the vagaries of Rob S's "thought experiment" threads, where he asks one thing and means what he says, but doesn't...nor actually want a complete answer to his question.

[Unobtanium]

Welcome to the vagaries of Rob S's "thought experiment" threads, where he asks one thing and means what he says, but doesn't...nor actually want a complete answer to his question.

Im just saying I grew up streetracing, btdt both on the 1320 and streets, and buddy...lol! DCT 5.5 to 60 and Non DCT 5.5 to 60 are literally a different power class, but what do I know, and when Rob isnt even buying a new vehicle, what does it really matter?

[BehindBlueI's]

Sure. I was under the impression that a 1 second disparity in 0-60 was of import. I simply mistook your OP.

The OP is over 2 years old at this point. This is just mental masturbation about diving into minutiae then bitching about minutiae, which is the arc of "thought experiment" threads.

[Hambo]

The OP is over 2 years old at this point. This is just mental masturbation about diving into minutiae then bitching about minutiae, which is the arc of "thought experiment" threads.

C'mon, man, give them a break. P-F is where people talk about the best tactical pants through three presidencies. Don't let the fact that Rob needed a shitter in the vehicle more than he needed more horsepower stop the fun.

[Unobtanium]

The OP is over 2 years old at this point. This is just mental masturbation about diving into minutiae then bitching about minutiae, which is the arc of "thought experiment" threads.

Did OP even buy a vehicle? If so, I couldn't find the post, but may have skimmed over it. The whole thing was mental masturbation all along.

[BehindBlueI's]

Did OP even buy a vehicle? If so, I couldn't find the post, but may have skimmed over it. The whole thing was mental masturbation all along.

No, but the thread title pretty much indicated that. I'm just reminding folks what this thread actually is. There's nothing wrong with it, just treat it like a game of "would you rather" instead of a genuine RFI and enjoy it for what it is.

[rob_s]

.

Mostly as a thought experiment (more so than a "tell me how to spend my money" or "tell me what to do") but I thought it'd be interesting to have a discussion surrounding this segment as I know there's a fair number of car guys here.


No, but the thread title pretty much indicated that. I'm just reminding folks what this thread actually is. There's nothing wrong with it, just treat it like a game of "would you rather" instead of a genuine RFI and enjoy it for what it is.

No vitriol directed at you with the below BBI, just quoting to reinforce the point.

It’s not like I said right off the top that this wasn’t about telling me what to buy or what to do. ;)

Some peoples children are just so excited to give advice I guess….

WTF happened to the ability to just have a goddamn discussion? :p:confused:

[rob_s]

Welcome to the vagaries of Rob S's "thought experiment" threads, where he asks one thing and means what he says, but doesn't...nor actually want a complete answer to his question.

It’s just a conversation.

Not everyone is looking for strangers in the internut to tell them what to do ;)

It’s ok. I got that wrong for a long time too. One day you’ll get it too. Or not, no matter either way.

I get that “thought” may be beyond some folks, experiment or otherwise ;)

[Unobtanium]

No vitriol directed at you with the below BBI, just quoting to reinforce the point.

It’s not like I said right off the top that this wasn’t about telling me what to buy or what to do. ;)

Some peoples children are just so excited to give advice I guess….

WTF happened to the ability to just have a goddamn discussion? :p:confused:


Oh for fucks sake.

You win. You are more internet car knowledgeable than me.

Congratulations.

Can we get off this one stupid bit of minutiae now?



Some people just aren't good at discussing some things. Cars are chief among them, I've found. Typically not among Volvo aficionados, though, but hey?

PS. Noone is telling you what to do. You won't buy a vehicle and we know it, it's just a fun thread.

[TGS]

Some people just aren't good at discussing some things. Cars are chief among them, I've found. Typically not among Volvo aficionados, though, but hey?

PS. Noone is telling you what to do. You won't buy a vehicle and we know it, it's just a fun thread.

Stop telling him what to do, man. jeez.