Body armor effectiveness against Russian issue ammunition

[That Guy]

I have a friend who is planning buying armor, and effectiveness of said armor in stopping typical current issue Russian rifle bullets is definitely one selection criteria for him. I went looking, and while there appears to be a lot of misinformation out there regarding body armor in general, one thing where things seem to be even worse is when discussing armor's effectiveness in stopping Russian rounds.This forum being the mecca for high quality information, I was hoping you guys might be able to shed some more light on the topic?

Now obviously, most armor manufacturers in the West don't test their armor with Russian ammo, but how useful would tests with SS109/M855 and .30 caliber bullets be in estimating the armor's effectiveness? Would it be fair to say that due to Russian mentality of emphasizing penetration, ceramic plates are pretty much the only effective armor out there?

(My friend could of course buy Russian plates, which are tested against Russian ammunition, but from what I've read Russians have some quality control issues so he would be taking a risk of receiving a plate that won't perform as advertised. And there would be some logistical issues involved as well. Much easier to just get good quality western manufactured plates that are more likely to perform up to claimed standards.)

[Wake27]

By Russian ammo, are you talking about 5.45 specifically, or just all of it? I’ve got a pretty basic level of understanding so I won’t say much, but unless he’s planning on getting in a fight with the Rooskies, I think concerns about stopping M193 and M855 are more valid. From my understanding, slow heavy rounds don’t penetrate as well, so 7.62x39 isn’t as much of a concern and 5.45 guns and ammo isn’t nearly as pervasive as ARs and 193/855 are here in the states IMO. The two don’t have to be mutually exclusive - my expectation would be that if it performs well against 5.45 it’d do the same for 193/855 and vice versa. I don’t know whether that’s true or not, but my point is that I’d really only be looking at the newer plates that are often referred to as special threat and designed with 193/855 in mind - Velocity makes one as does Hesco I believe. I care far less about AP .30-06 if Walmart special ammo from a Bushmaster is going to poke right through.


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[That Guy]

but unless he’s planning on getting in a fight with the Rooskies ... and 5.45 guns and ammo isn’t nearly as pervasive as ARs and 193/855 are here in the states IMO.

A fight with the Russians is indeed the reason for the armor. The person is located outside USA.

For US domestic use, I feel the existing information on this forum covers things pretty well. I am specifically looking for knowledge that applies to situations outside USA.

[TGS]

A fight with the Russians is indeed the reason for the armor. The person is located outside USA.

For US domestic use, I feel the existing information on this forum covers things pretty well. I am specifically looking for knowledge that applies to situations outside USA.

If said dude has any risk of engaging Russians in any manner consistent with international law (I.e. he's not a terrorist or criminal), he should have better resources that P-F.com at his finger tips. I know such for a fact, actually.

Aside from information being fun and all, this thread has either "mall ninja" or "super fucking sketch'" written all over it.

[wvincent]

If said dude has any risk of engaging Russians in any manner consistent with international law (I.e. he's not a terrorist or criminal), he should have better resources that P-F.com at his finger tips. I know such for a fact, actually.

Aside from information being fun and all, this thread has either "mall ninja" or "super fucking sketch'" written all over it.

And correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't western manufactured armor ITAR controlled?
Have fun getting jacked up on that.

[That Guy]

If said dude has any risk of engaging Russians in any manner consistent with international law (I.e. he's not a terrorist or criminal), he should have better resources that P-F.com at his finger tips. I know such for a fact, actually.

Aside from information being fun and all, this thread has either "mall ninja" or "super fucking sketch'" written all over it.

I feel you are overreacting a bit.

Look, you would probably state that the U.S. military is the most professional and best trained military in the world, right? I once read a U.S. veteran's story about a unit that had spent unit money to buy ICW plates, which they then proceeded to use as stand alone armour, because hey, plates is plates right? Now, if the most professional and best trained military in the world can make a mistake like that, what makes you so sure others are any more squared off?

The friend of mine is a military reservist, so he isn't a full-time soldier. So I am not sure how much of these better resources he has available. He also doesn't make that much money, and I know how much armour costs. People on this forum ask for information on a wide variety of topics and usually get answers from very high level professionals. So I figured there's no harm in asking. Besides, like you said, information is fun, and seeing a lack of it I got curious.

Sorry if my question offended you.

[That Guy]

And correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't western manufactured armor ITAR controlled?
Have fun getting jacked up on that.

I'm not sure what you mean with "jacked up", but outside of the US there are at least French, German, UK, and South Korean manufactured plates for sale, as well as one or two places that sell gucci gear for the wealthy, including U.S. manufactured gear. None of this is illegal in any way to buy (just bloody expensive).

Anyways, my apologies if my question touched a nerve.

[TGS]

I feel you are overreacting a bit.

Look, you would probably state that the U.S. military is the most professional and best trained military in the world, right? I once read a U.S. veteran's story about a unit that had spent unit money to buy ICW plates, which they then proceeded to use as stand alone armour, because hey, plates is plates right? Now, if the most professional and best trained military in the world can make a mistake like that, what makes you so sure others are any more squared off?

The friend of mine is a military reservist, so he isn't a full-time soldier. So I am not sure how much of these better resources he has available. He also doesn't make that much money, and I know how much armour costs. People on this forum ask for information on a wide variety of topics and usually get answers from very high level professionals. So I figured there's no harm in asking. Besides, like you said, information is fun, and seeing a lack of it I got curious.

Sorry if my question offended you.

It didn't offend me. To someone that actually works outside the US wearing body armor for specified threats, it's just odd.

What position is a military reservist in, outside the US, where he's looking to get into a fight with the Russians but doesn't have access to resources on what plates should be used? That's an exceedingly small number of people.....anyone attached to START Forward, for instance, is going to have those resources.

Again, I'm not offended, I'm just suspect. Forgive me if I get a little ancy when people ask weird shit about ITAR controlled items on this forum for use overseas.

[Pappy35]

Again, I'm not offended, I'm just suspect. Forgive me if I get a little ancy when people ask weird shit about ITAR controlled items on this forum for use overseas.

...or someone actually looking for info on how to improve the effectivity of domestically available personal armor. Yeah. I agree that this topic is highly suspect. The Dayton shooter, who was wearing body armor, was hit 24 times and tried to get up twice. Questions about improving personal body armor are very suspicious in my opinion.

[That Guy]

Again, I'm not offended, I'm just suspect. Forgive me if I get a little ancy when people ask weird shit about ITAR controlled items on this forum for use overseas.

If you are more comfortable discussing this topic privately (where I can get a bit more specific), feel free to message me. Otherwise, sorry to have bothered you.

[YVK]

What position is a military reservist in, outside the US, where he's looking to get into a fight with the Russians but doesn't have access to resources on what plates should be used?


Ukrainian communities in the US have collected funds to buy armor for Ukrainians involved in the conflict with Russia. I don't know if only money was supposed to be sent over, or there were ways to piggybag a purchased armor onto the official military aid that US has provided to Ukraine. I don't know what happened at the end, but I surely know that my friends, who are/were local Ukrainian community activists, have asked me what to/how to about the armor explicitly for the above reason.

[VT1032]

The Wikipedia article on 5.45 ammo has some decent publicly available info on the current Russian rifle rounds and their performance if that's what you're looking for. How that relates to commercially available armor, I couldn't tell you. Does your friend not get issued armor as a reservist?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/5.45%C3%9739mm

I seem to recall seeing a video on youtube of some of the DPR guys in eastern Ukraine shooting up captured Ukrainian body armor. It looked like the Ukrainians were issuing some sort of steel plate and whatever it was, the 5.45 they had was zipping through it like was nothing.

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[HCM]

And correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't western manufactured armor ITAR controlled?
Have fun getting jacked up on that.

ITAR only covers US items but other countries like Germany have similar restrictions.

[DocGKR]

The big question is what Russian projectile; for example, 7N1 is a very different threat than 7N37....

[That Guy]

The big question is what Russian projectile; for example, 7N1 is a very different threat than 7N37....

Indeed. And that is of course difficult to know beforehand.

It is my understanding that ammunition with a hardened steel penetrator is in common use. I don't know how much of the newer tungsten carbide penetrator ammo is in actual use, but some of it has been manufactured now for a while.

[DocGKR]

Equivalent Western projectiles perform at least as well as similar Russian ones, so if armor works against standard Western threats, it will work against equivalent Russian ones.

[spyderco monkey]

To answer the question, for the latest Russian 5.45 7N22, which uses a full length hardened steel penetrator, you want a Level III+ "special threat" plate rated for M855A1, or really just the more common Level IV.

http://gunrf.ru/rg_patron_5_45x39_eng.html

The plate needs to be made of ceramic, backed by a UHMWPE backer.

Chinese made plates - which are both cheap and available to anyone with a credit card - are more then up to the task.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlvegB2T0AU