Guns for Weak People: Observations

[Doc_Glock]

I recently took a friend’s daughter out to familiarize her with guns. No prior experience except shooting her brother’s Gen 3 G19 which apparently malfunctioned all the time when she shot it.

We did some dry work on safety before going out, then I tried her on a variety of guns. She is a very slight, skinny, and weak individual, and it was interesting for me to see how a relatively weak human interacts with various guns.

In the dry work, she had difficulty running the slide on most semi autos, but did much better with full sized guns. Forget the G42 or G43. Administrative handling of revolvers was no issue, but the heavy trigger pull was a problem. I would say for pistols, dry, the 92D was the one I would probably set her up with.

In the field: I had her start with the M&P .22 AR clone with red dot to get some confidence. She was ringing steel at 15 paces no problem almost instantly. Learned the load, unload process and running the safety quickly.

Then the Beretta M9-22 conversion. This was good for learning how to use sights, but the safety decocker and two different trigger pulls all added up to overwhelming a new shooter. I had her load the gun, but essentially, I ran the controls and put her in SA all the time. This was just to get her unafraid of the explosion and to learn how to align sights and squeeze trigger which the B92-22 is great for, being so heavy. Many malfunctions which I attribute to standard velocity .22 and a very limp wrist.

Moved to the LCR .22. That was a total fail. The 12lb trigger was overwhelming and she could barely pull it, did so with great difficulty and a lot of shake. Two rounds and we quit.

Glock 42: again total fail. I had to load for her. Two rounds and both failed to feed due to limp wrist. This surprised me as I always think the G42 is a great gun for the weaker, recoil sensitive shooter. Nope.

G19X, just to get a feel of a full sized/power service pistol: she loved it and was able to run it. Zero malfunctions! Check out her limp wrist:


https://youtu.be/A9_EluFlVq4

The G19X totally impressed me. This gun has around 2k rounds on it without lube. I never thought it would cycle for her.

I then had her shoot a mag from an 11.5” AR and she handled that gun just fine. Loud but nothing to fear.

Lessons learned:

-Small people should stick to rifles.

-The industry has has failed to make a: lightweight, reliable, easy to shoot, load, and unload small caliber gun for the strength challenged folks who most need a gun honestly. This sucks. Maybe the S&W Shield EZ is that gun? There is a real need for more like that. Let me know your thoughts? The Beretta Bobcat is almost that fun but it is totally unreliable and has a safety plus DA/SA system that is completely bizarre to a non dedicated shooter. Are there any revolvers that meet this criteria with a trigger under 8lbs?

-The AR/Full sized Glock combination is hard to beat with a little training and can serve a very wide variety of folks.

[P30]

Let me know your thoughts?
As far as pistols:

CZ75.
1911 in 9 mm with steel frame.

Both have a relatively heavy frame which absorbs much of the recoil and makes them cycle even with limb wrists.

PS:
Limb wristing tests with pistols which have different frame weights (e.g. Glock malfunctions, CZ75 does not):


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_Uqtz2asE4

[JTQ]

I follow these "guns for the weak/small" threads pretty regularly, since I'm a short guy at 5'6", who wears a men's size small glove, and my wife and daughters are all 5' even, and since I'm now over 60 and showing the beginning signs of arthritis, I pay attention to these threads.

The head scratcher I always have in these threads is folks putting small guns in the hands of smaller/weaker people. I get it, if you want to find a gun to conceal, but if you're just going to shoot it either at the range or in a home defense role, I find a full size/duty size gun a whole lot easier to work than a little gun like a G42/G43, J-Frame, or other small gun that folks like to give to folks with small hands.

Most big folks or folks with large hands seem to think that since folks with small hands can get most of their fingers on a short grip that's the way to go. The issue with small hands, and often weak hands, is trigger reach. A G17/G19X/G19/G26 all have the same trigger reach, but generally it's a whole lot easier to shoot the full size version of those guns.

The "get the J-Frame" also always intrigues me too. I'd much rather use my big upper body muscles to rack the slide of a semi-auto to get a 5 lb trigger pull for each shot (and often 15+ of those shots) than have to use the small muscles in my trigger finger, that may be arthritis affected, to pull a 12 lb trigger on a double action revolver for as few as five shots before I have to reload.

I pay pretty close attention to my right hand thumb and the ability I have to sweep the thumb safety off on a 1911. As long as I can do that, the light weight single action trigger and short trigger reach, on a full size 1911 is an advantage to me. If my thumb starts to lose mobility, and it is currently better off than my trigger finger, I may have to switch to something else, but so far so good.

[Totem Polar]

The shield EZ is a game-changer for impaired hands. One is now my dad’s EDC.

I’ll also observe that the new Colt King Cobra has a very easy trigger, by revolver standards. That gun, with wadcutters, may be my own ‘old man gun’ someday down the road.

FWIW.

[Chuck Whitlock]

I was impressed with my mom's Browning 1911-380.

[beenalongtime]

Have a friend who teaches a local CCW class, that thinks the EZ 380 could/would be a gun for those with a lot of strength issues. He had been wanting to get one for his classes, but had some medical issues the last year, so he was just hesitant on pulling the money trigger. (making sure he was good to go, back to work)
I bought one for him and he let me handle it, and it did make the .22 version I bought to train my niece, seem hard to operate (and it isn't). If it weren't for the ammo price difference, I would prefer the EZ 380 as the trainer.

That said, medical conditions can change and people can build up grip and body strength, so I wouldn't expect what she likes now, to always be her choice, but in part that is why some of us always try other guns. Finding out what works for us. Let her get more range time and even that may help her strength.

[VT1032]

I then had her shoot a mag from an 11.5” AR and she handled that gun just fine. Loud but nothing to fear.


This is one of my standard responses to the "why would anyone need an AR15?" question. My wife is similarly small and physically weak. She makes a G19 look like a .44 mag despite efforts at training. She can run a .22 pistol marginally well but that's about the limit. She runs an AR like a champ. More importantly, she's comfortable and confident with it. It can be fit to her and she can reliably use it in an emergency.

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[Malamute]

I dont recall exact trigger pull weight numbers, but K frame Smiths can be set up with a lighter yet reliable DA trigger pull than a J frame.

One gun that stays in my mind for this situation is the Ruger Standard 22 auto pistol, the Luger-esque looking one, not the smaller, more modern 22 theyve made (SR-22?). The Standard doesnt require much force to operate the slide, and there are slide racker attachments available to help if needed, to pull by hand or hook on a door frame or whatever if one cant grasp the slide ears adequately. They are very reliable, and I dont believe are sensitive to limp wristing.

[41magfan]

I figured out a long time ago that a Ruger Compact 10/22 with a 25 rd magazine will work for a lot of people for a lot of reasons, both young and old. It's not a portable option obviously, but I've found that most of these folks aren't going to carry a gun in public anyway, regardless of their initial intentions.

[Bergeron]

It's been educational when I've had a chance to work with weaker people.

A good friend's wife could only just barely work the slide of Glock 19, and she's tall and athletic, but without as much arm or grip strength as I would have though.

Doc_Glock, I got myself a 92D Centurion with a NP3 TJIAB not only to give myself DAO practice, but to serve as a loaner gun.

I'd like to get hands-on with a M&P 380EZ, just to see. I keep hearing how easy it is.

Maybe mid-size locked-breech 380s are the solution to this issue?

[TGS]

G19X, just to get a feel of a full sized/power service pistol: she loved it and was able to run it. Zero malfunctions! Check out her limp wrist:


Could she rack the slide on her own in a competent, safe manner with the slide in a fully closed position?



I'd like to get hands-on with a M&P 380EZ, just to see. I keep hearing how easy it is.

Maybe mid-size locked-breech 380s are the solution to this issue?

If we happen to run into each other you're welcome to try out my wife's P250 .380. I bought it for her as a present for finally moving to America, the idea being it might've been a better CCW option for her than her P226. She loves her P226, but she can barely rack the slide and cannot lock the slide open. Even with the P250 .380 and its outrageously light recoil spring, she can barely lock the slide open. I mean, dude, I'm not an engineer but it's my opinion that locked breech .380s are operating on the ragged edge of reliability. The RSA on the P250 .380 is so light that you can actually feel how sluggish the gun cycles, either when shooting or just during administrative handling.

The interesting part is that she's not who I would consider a weak female. When we worked EMS together, I never had concerns about lifting people when I was paired with her on truck, whereas that was a concern when partnered with most women. Her hand strength is sufficient that she can competently shoot double action a-ok, no problems......yet she can barely lock the slide open on that P250 .380.

Kinesiology/ergonomics are weird.

[Bergeron]

First off, thank you for that kind offer!

Agreed on the weirdness of kinesiology and ergonomics. My friend's wife who I referenced above is six feet tall, in her 30s, and is a regular volleyballer. I'm sure with some grip strength work, she'd be good to go, but it was very suprising to hand her a G19 and see her struggle.

On the other hand, my mom is turning 60 this year and shoots a double-stack Para .40, and my sister's never had a problem with full-size nines.

I have heard many positive things about that Sig P250 in .380- if anyone has reliability data on locked-breech .380s, I'd be all eyes and ears.

[Doc_Glock]

Could she rack the slide on her own in a competent, safe manner with the slide in a fully closed position?


I think she could be trained to. In. This case, I locked it open and had her load from slide lock since she was fatigued and I wanted to focus on shooting.

This gal had fairly long fingers just skinny and weak.

[EMC]

The M&P EZ seems to be the ultimate solution for arthritis or anyone with hand strength issues. Pretty smart of S&W to target a large market segment who could benefit from an easy to shoot semi-auto. My sister discovered she couldn't rack the slide on her husbands glocks and this was my first recommendation. History of arthritic hands on the female side of our family. Otherwise it would have been a heavy double action trigger on a j frame she would likely never practice with.

[revchuck38]

Karl Rehn did a review of the M&P EZ last year. It's here (http://blog.krtraining.com/smith-and-wesson-ez-380-gun-review/). It's a two-part review, the link to the second part is at the very bottom of the page.

[Caballoflaco]

I’ve mentioned it before, but a red dot sight shaped piece of aluminum mounted to an optics ready pistol from any major manufacturer would be awesome for people with a lack of hand strength, or who only have the use of one arm and don’t want to spend the money for a dot sight.

Make it close to rmr shape and you would still have a decent amount of holster choices, plus it doesn’t stick out the side of a pistol like the gamer cocking levers for pistols.

[Ed L]

The HK VP9 and VP9 subcomact both have charging handles on both sides of the gun on the back of the slide. This makes it easier to work the slide.

41430

[Redhat]

Over the years I've observed this problem to usually be mindset and /or technique. However, nearly all my experience is training personnel on the M9.

[beenalongtime]

For the racking issue, have you looked up different racking methods here, and had them try them?

[AKDoug]

Over the years I've observed this problem to usually be mindset and /or technique. However, nearly all my experience is training personnel on the M9.

My experience as well while training both of my daughters. It typically is not an actual strength issue, it's a technique and application of strength issue. I never thought my girls were dainty at all until we started working with semi auto handguns. Once I got them to get after it with dummy rounds and a few hundred repetitions of slide racking they were good to go. I know there are people with real strength issues, but I started my girls on Glock 19's at 10 years old,and they sure weren't strong as I spoiled them pretty bad. Concentrate on gun handling first, then introduce the shooting aspect.

Same shit I went through with one of the girls when she couldn't serve a volleyball to save her life. We went outside and beat the tar out of the ball without worrying where it was going with no net. Once she learned how to apply the strength we worked on technique than actual aiming and serving. She finished her high school years with a very decent ace percentage.

[rob_s]

I sold guns for several years. This was in the late '90s and through the millenium so the market has changed drastically.

However, what hasn't changed is the way guns often wind up in women's hands, which is purchased by men who "know what their wife needs" and turn out to be unshootable/usable for a variety of reasons.

The OP mentions the struggle of not being able to run the slide on a semi-auto, which in turn leads to the conclusion that they "need" a revolver, at which point you discover they can't pull the trigger on the revolver. As a salesman, I learned to ignore the husband and focus on just the wife/woman, to include speaking directly to her and making eye contact, and when handing over a gun offering it to her rather than him.

what I generally resorted to was just having them try everything in the case, but there didn't seem to ever be one universal solution, as evidenced by the fact that I can't tell you "the vast majority chose the..." I do seem to recall that some DA semi-autos became managable when first cocking the hammer, then running the slide, but again you wind up with a DA trigger that may be a problem.

IME tha challenge was to find a balance of

not so heavy that they got fatigued just holding it, but not so light that the recoil was off-putting
an operating system that they could manipulate, but not at the expense of a trigger they can't pull
knowing what she wants/needs vs what he thinks she should have
understanding what the actual goal of buying her a gun might be (real-world self-defense need vs simply starting by getting her to the range and teaching her to shoot and enjoy shooting)



Right now my wife is very into Sporting Clays. She's learned to manipulate the gun without help, provided that it doesn't malfunction (at which point I still have to step in, typically). She's now asking that we store the 870P in the bedroom as she feels comfortable enough with shotguns, but i"m resistant because (a) I don't have a good way to secure it in the bedroom right now and we have kids and (b) an 870 is not an A300. I'm also hoping that *maybe* this interest in sporting clays will lead to an interest in the action games (IDPA, USPSA, action steel, Steel challenge, whatever) so I'm very interested to follow this thread and see what others have had success with. My thinking right now is that if I can get her shooting steel with a PCC or .22 that'll be the "gateway drug". Plan to go stay overnight sometime soon where we can shoot clays in the afternoon and steel in the morning.

[OlongJohnson]

There’s a P250 .380 on Gunbroker right now.

[littlejerry]

My wife is just under 5ft tall and roughly 90 lbs.

The Glock 42 is always a challenge for her. She can shoot it quite well but the slide is difficult to work. My 19.4 is just thick enough thatshe either can't get good trigger finger placement or the web of her thumb isn't behind the grip.

We tried a CZ75 and the slide was impossible to rack due to the internal slide rails. She also hated the weight.

I bought an M&P 15-22 that she can shoot all day and quite well. She'll struggle to hit 2/3 scale silhouettes at 15 yards with a pistol but then drill 6" plates at 25 yards with the 15-22 without breaking a sweat.

I will probably just order a Shield EZ this fall for her to experiment with.

[Redhat]

My wife is just under 5ft tall and roughly 90 lbs.

The Glock 42 is always a challenge for her. She can shoot it quite well but the slide is difficult to work. My 19.4 is just thick enough thatshe either can't get good trigger finger placement or the web of her thumb isn't behind the grip.

We tried a CZ75 and the slide was impossible to rack due to the internal slide rails. She also hated the weight.

I bought an M&P 15-22 that she can shoot all day and quite well. She'll struggle to hit 2/3 scale silhouettes at 15 yards with a pistol but then drill 6" plates at 25 yards with the 15-22 without breaking a sweat.

I will probably just order a Shield EZ this fall for her to experiment with.

Are there any female instructors nearby that she might consider? Maybe a ladies only class?

[scjbash]

The EZ can be the ticket for a lot of people but it's not a guaranteed fix. I've had one student have stoppages with an EZ because of strength issues. She had to really focus on maximum grip pressure with both hands to get it to run, which in turn caused an accuracy problem.

[JTQ]

My wife is just under 5ft tall and roughly 90 lbs.

The Glock 42 is always a challenge for her. She can shoot it quite well but the slide is difficult to work. My 19.4 is just thick enough thatshe either can't get good trigger finger placement or the web of her thumb isn't behind the grip.

We tried a CZ75 and the slide was impossible to rack due to the internal slide rails. She also hated the weight.
The CZ75 is a big hand gun. The trigger reach in DA is very long, and the reach to the thumb safety is also long.

The M&P, Beretta APX, HK VP9 are three full size guns that are fairly small hand friendly.

[littlejerry]

The CZ75 is a big hand gun. The trigger reach in DA is very long, and the reach to the thumb safety is also long.

The M&P, Beretta APX, HK VP9 are three full size guns that are fairly small hand friendly.

I'm gonna disagree a little with you. In our/her experience the M&P 9 was a total no-go. The trigger reach and grip circumference were not ideal for a small hand. The CZ has a very short trigger reach, which she liked, but the slide was very difficult to manipulate. The weight was also a hindrance.

She shot a P30 relatively well in SA, but DA was a new non-starter so perhaps the VP9 would be a good option, but she'll still have to deal with the muzzle blast.

Part of the issue is that she's a casual shooter at most. It's easy for any of us who shoot regularly to say "oh but with some training and practice you can overcome these issues...". That is a major turnoff to someone like her who wants to know how to safely operate and use a handgun but she doesn't want to practice regularly. A full size 9mm doesn't jive with this type of mindset. She can pick up a 22 pistol and shoot it well with minimal practice. A modern 25 ACP or .380 in a Glock 48 sized package would be ideal.

[Bucky]

I’ll add another thought regarding the CZ 75 lineup. The internal frame to slide rail configuration gives less room to grasp for slide racking, making that function more challenging versus more traditional railed guns.

[Jim Watson]

Apparently nobody in the business thinks there is enough of a market to develop a real mechanical solution as was known a hundred years ago.
The Dreyse 1910 9mm and the Smith & Wesson 1913 .35 could disconnect the slide from the recoil spring, letting you charge the chamber with little effort.
They had shortcomings to where a direct reproduction would not be a good choice, but the concept is there, or was.

And, as said, a lot of people don't need a mechanical solution, they just need technique, practice, and exercise.

[Rex G]

Over the years I've observed this problem to usually be mindset and /or technique. However, nearly all my experience is training personnel on the M9.


For the racking issue, have you looked up different racking methods here, and had them try them?


My experience as well while training both of my daughters. It typically is not an actual strength issue, it's a technique and application of strength issue. I never thought my girls were dainty at all until we started working with semi auto handguns. Once I got them to get after it with dummy rounds and a few hundred repetitions of slide racking they were good to go. I know there are people with real strength issues, but I started my girls on Glock 19's at 10 years old,and they sure weren't strong as I spoiled them pretty bad. Concentrate on gun handling first, then introduce the shooting aspect.

These.

[Redhat]

I’ll add another thought regarding the CZ 75 lineup. The internal frame to slide rail configuration gives less room to grasp for slide racking, making that function more challenging versus more traditional railed guns.

I hear this frequently, but do you have any idea how much less surface area the CZ 75 has than some of the other popular pistols? Compared to say a G19, 92FS, SIG, HK, M&P.

I'll also add, learning to do things usually requires a level of commitment, especially if they aren't easy. Without that, I don't know how successful you can expect to be.

[scjbash]

I'm gonna disagree a little with you. In our/her experience the M&P 9 was a total no-go. The trigger reach and grip circumference were not ideal for a small hand.

Did you have the small backstrap on? I ask because that's the opposite of my experience. The M&P with a small backstrap makes for a pretty small grip circumference and short trigger reach, and I've seen it work really well for a lot of women with small hands.

[Bucky]

I hear this frequently, but do you have any idea how much less surface area the CZ 75 has than some of the other popular pistols? Compared to say a G19, 92FS, SIG, HK, M&P.

I’ve been shooting a CZ Shadow 2 in USPSA Production competition for the past two years. Previously, I shot Glock for about 5, Berettas for about 7, did a year with the HK P30, and dabbled with the VP9 and M&P. Also, shot 1911s / 2011s in non-production divisions for the past 27 years. I’ve not had an issue adapting, but I can see where it can be more challenging to someone with limited strength.

[txdpd]

The interesting part is that she's not who I would consider a weak female. When we worked EMS together, I never had concerns about lifting people when I was paired with her on truck, whereas that was a concern when partnered with most women. Her hand strength is sufficient that she can competently shoot double action a-ok, no problems......yet she can barely lock the slide open on that P250 .380.

Kinesiology/ergonomics are weird.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/17186303/

Not surprising. In testing grip strength 90% of females produced less force than 95% of males.

Couple other things. Don’t “rack” the slides on pistols, anchor the hand holding the pistol against the chest, and drive the hand holding the grip forward. If you have front serrations, griping the front of the slide and torquing the thumb into the rear serrations can generate a lot of force. Crappy video attached.


https://youtu.be/mUGrYWuqPec

[AKDoug]

If shooting for fun is the goal, then look no further than a Ruger Mark IV .22/45. They are incredibly easy to manipulate, can be had in light weight versions, and in a self defense instance it's better than nothing.

[BillSWPA]

When I taught NRA Basic Pistol, I ended up working with a disproportionate number of elderly ladies and others with hand or wrist issues. While different issues require different solutions, some consistent patterns exist. Trigger pulls should be kept well below 9 lb., and the ease of retracting the slide is important.

Semiautos with light triggers generally work best. My wife, who does not have particularly good hand strength and who is recoil sensitive, does best with a Springfield XD9. While I know some will question that choice, it is the result of trying her out on MANY guns. I hope to try her out on a S&W EZ at some point.

Two ladies with wrist problems have told me that the recoil of a semiauto is no good for them, but revolver recoil is okay. One of them shoots DA revolvers with both index fingers on the trigger. Sometimes nonstandard solutions work.

Kel-Tec P-32 is a really good choice if a tiny gun is desired, as long as the 9 lb. recoil springs are replaced with 11 lb. springs. Crimson Trace LaserGuards are a big help.

I worry less about minimum calibers than I do about their having a gun that they can shoot well and that they will actually carry.



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[Duelist]

My wife is just under 5ft tall and roughly 90 lbs.

The Glock 42 is always a challenge for her. She can shoot it quite well but the slide is difficult to work. My 19.4 is just thick enough thatshe either can't get good trigger finger placement or the web of her thumb isn't behind the grip.

We tried a CZ75 and the slide was impossible to rack due to the internal slide rails. She also hated the weight.

I bought an M&P 15-22 that she can shoot all day and quite well. She'll struggle to hit 2/3 scale silhouettes at 15 yards with a pistol but then drill 6" plates at 25 yards with the 15-22 without breaking a sweat.

I will probably just order a Shield EZ this fall for her to experiment with.

Isn’t there a striker plate that has ears or something for slide manipulations?

[Whirlwind06]

The Walther CCP slide seems really easy to work. I don't have any experience with it other then checking it out at a gun shop.

Might be another option.

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[runcible]

I’ve come to the conclusion that most firearms programs teach most firearms students well enough; but those same programs are poorly equipped to teach most people.

There’s a selection bias in play, on account of the screening/hiring/training processes themselves homogenizing the student body.

More so, most curriculums and deliveries are more a matter of tradition than necessarily because it’s the outcome of a deliberate process to identify how to convey the subject matter.

Lastly, shooting is an amazingly unathletic activity for many - though, those greater in constitution may do well enough; whether that be in terms of hand size, strength, height, or weight.

A robust shooting curriculum should provide for shooters large and small in equal measure; and with a minimum of stature-specific adaptations. The more adaptations are required for a slightness in any of the above-listed attributes, the more I look askance at the curriculum.

I have yet to see the push-pull method of teaching slide-racking to work satisfactorily; it’s got a lot of moving parts involved and with an element of timing.

For manipulations, several adaptations have been consistently useful for shooters of all statutes. First is for the trigger finger to be indexed against the frame with positive pressure exerted (very similar to the positive register point of ECQC, but on-frame) - this prevents the weapon rolling in their hand when they attempt to rack the slide, and makes for a more efficient expression of the motion. Additionally, it helps reduce bending in the wrist during the same. Secondly, posting the shooting-side elbow slightly forward of one’s side, with a definitive index of elbow against ribs: this reduces the number of joints that have to provide resistance in order for the slide to be pulled rearwards away from the frame, and the incompressible nature of forearm bones provides desirable resistance to the motion. Lastly, pinching with the support hand’s thumb and forefinger +/- the social finger, seems to be stronger in everyone I’ve asked on the matter, as opposed to the strength of clasping one’s fingertips to the corresponding palm; like false-gripping for pull-ups or some lifts, it is counter-intuitive but consistently so. (Very few can pinch me to the point of discomfort by clasping 1-4 fingertips towards their palm with the web of my hand in the middle; by almost everyone can make it painful with a thumb and forefinger alone.) Following with that, unless the weapon system has a conflict with that (e.g Beretta M9 - pinch-rack those from forward of the ejection port), most get more consistent performance by pinching the back of the slide in order to cycle it or lock it to the rear.

(BLUF: shift the trigger finger from the positive register to the frame index, index the shooting-side elbow outboard of the abdominals and forward of one’s side, set the pinch around the slide, rack by drawing the pinch back towards one’s center-sternum.)

For locking the slide to the rear, prepositioning the edge of the thumb beneath the appropriate lever and pre-loading pressure onwards and upwards, prior to the slide being racked, takes much of the timing and finesse out of the process. There is an exception in this for lefties with non-ambi pistols, wherein the support thumb swipes the left-side lever upwards after the slide is racked and held at the rear. (Pressure on the rear of the slide remains primarily from the support hand’s index finger and thumb, but in this case the index finger is pressing-towards/opposed-by the thumb’s second knuckle instead of the thumb’s tip.)

For the shooting, I see no benefit to belaboring or aggrandizing the pomp and flare of recoil/report/muzzle-blast; they can speak well enough for themselves. Everyone gets doubled-up earpro, everyone wrings the gun with full pectoral and trapezius engagement, and everyone supports the press of their trigger finger with an actively pressing support-hand thumb. (Revolvers don’t get used as first-time guns in part for that latter reason.) Ensuring that there is sufficient finger on the trigger to press it from front to rear in a singular manner, is far more rewarding than trying to align the centerline of the weapon with their wrist/web/ulna/whatever. The wringing component may be increased until the wrists articulate little or not at all, during recoil.

First-timers get walked through the focal shift from target focus to a front-sight focus, and then building a sight picture. This may be verified again before subsequent rounds being fired. Breathing is also dictated aloud for first-timers. Follow-through is described and directed BEFORE the first shot is fired; as it ties in tangibly with grip-strength and recoil management.

Stance is taught either through mountain-goating or attempting to push over a structural wall. Shoulders forward of the hips, feet deeply staggered, with the support-side in lead and with a bend in the knee; hips square to the target, head upright, and both full arms at full extension. (Its a lot less of a mouthful to just mountain goat or push on a wall.)

At any age, size, presence or absence of physical fitness, and skill level; we all do better when we’re shooting with our whole bodies and in an efficient and deliberate manner.

[BillSWPA]

Mas Ayoob published an article in one of the gun magazines many years ago wherein he discussed various methods of making things easier for shooters with various disabilities. In one instance, if I recall correctly, he described a magazine pouch that held the magazines with the feed lips pointing up, so that the shooter could simply bring the gun down on the magazine. I do not know which pouch or quite how that would work. I wish I had saved it.



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[fixer]

-The industry has has failed to make a: lightweight, reliable, easy to shoot, load, and unload small caliber gun for the strength challenged folks who most need a gun honestly. This sucks. Maybe the S&W Shield EZ is that gun? There is a real need for more like that. Let me know your thoughts? The Beretta Bobcat is almost that fun but it is totally unreliable and has a safety plus DA/SA system that is completely bizarre to a non dedicated shooter. Are there any revolvers that meet this criteria with a trigger under 8lbs?



My wife is fairly experienced but still somewhat fits in the above category. She tried Glocks and likes their simplicity but the "beavertail" bothers her thumb joint when shooting more than 15 rounds. Beretta 92 of different variants...the DA/SA thing was too much and the grip slices her thumb webbing. Together this is about 8 or more years of range time, trial and error, instruction etc...We've also tried the sig p238, Glock 26, and Glock 42. The 238 was closest to being acceptable but the lack of 3 finger grip was a no-go.

We've now gone to 9mm 1911s. So far so good...only problem is the weight. But its somewhat comparable to a loaded 92. The 9mm 1911 is easy to load, has a manual safety, can find ones that have triggers in the 5-7 lb range, and yes you can some that are reliable. And the accuracy is a huge benefit...she can get good hits on target at 15 yds much easier.

[Mas]

Mas Ayoob published an article in one of the gun magazines many years ago wherein he discussed various methods of making things easier for shooters with various disabilities. In one instance, if I recall correctly, he described a magazine pouch that held the magazines with the feed lips pointing up, so that the shooter could simply bring the gun down on the magazine. I do not know which pouch or quite how that would work. I wish I had saved it.



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It's been quite a while, Bill, but if I recall correctly it was Tom Campbell who showed me those mag pouches, and I think they may have been made for him by Bill Rogers.

[BillSWPA]

It's been quite a while, Bill, but if I recall correctly it was Tom Campbell who showed me those mag pouches, and I think they may have been made for him by Bill Rogers.

Thanks for that information!



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[revchuck38]

Mas Ayoob published an article in one of the gun magazines many years ago wherein he discussed various methods of making things easier for shooters with various disabilities. In one instance, if I recall correctly, he described a magazine pouch that held the magazines with the feed lips pointing up, so that the shooter could simply bring the gun down on the magazine. I do not know which pouch or quite how that would work. I wish I had saved it.



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Actually, those mag pouches were from the early days of IPSC when one-handed reloads were a common requirement. They were known as “Idaho reloads”. I think Gordon Davis made them.

[BN]

Actually, those mag pouches were from the early days of IPSC when one-handed reloads were a common requirement. They were known as “Idaho reloads”. I think Gordon Davis made them.

I think I had one of those back in the day. The ones I remember were for 1911 mags. I thought they were Rogers or Safariland.

[revchuck38]

I think I had one of those back in the day. The ones I remember were for 1911 mags. I thought they were Rogers or Safariland.

They may well have been. The memory’s the second thing to go...

[runcible]

For manipulations, several adaptations have been consistently useful for shooters of all statutes. First is for the trigger finger to be indexed against the frame with positive pressure exerted (very similar to the positive register point of ECQC, but on-frame) - this prevents the weapon rolling in their hand when they attempt to rack the slide, and makes for a more efficient expression of the motion. Additionally, it helps reduce bending in the wrist during the same. Secondly, posting the shooting-side elbow slightly forward of one’s side, with a definitive index of elbow against ribs: this reduces the number of joints that have to provide resistance in order for the slide to be pulled rearwards away from the frame, and the incompressible nature of forearm bones provides desirable resistance to the motion. Lastly, pinching with the support hand’s thumb and forefinger +/- the social finger, seems to be stronger in everyone I’ve asked on the matter, as opposed to the strength of clasping one’s fingertips to the corresponding palm; like false-gripping for pull-ups or some lifts, it is counter-intuitive but consistently so. (Very few can pinch me to the point of discomfort by clasping 1-4 fingertips towards their palm with the web of my hand in the middle; by almost everyone can make it painful with a thumb and forefinger alone.) Following with that, unless the weapon system has a conflict with that (e.g Beretta M9 - pinch-rack those from forward of the ejection port), most get more consistent performance by pinching the back of the slide in order to cycle it or lock it to the rear.

(BLUF: shift the trigger finger from the positive register to the frame index, index the shooting-side elbow outboard of the abdominals and forward of one’s side, set the pinch around the slide, rack by drawing the pinch back towards one’s center-sternum.)

Some minutiae on pinch-racking the slide vs over-handing\power-stroking:

- it is difficult for most to over-hand the slide without bending the hand backwards at the wrist, which reduces effective grip strength. Plenty do just fine; but those with a relative strength deficit may do less well.

- it is intuitive but undesirable for the support-hand to immediately return forward after over-handing the slide to the rear, to then reassert the two-handed firing grip by fanning the extended palm and fingers past the side of the firearm and then curling them over the shooting-hand. It is relatively easy for the fingers to pass in-line with or beyond the muzzle, creating a safety concern; this being exacerbated if the shooter is overhanding with the support-hand while driving forward with the shooting-hand, as is often taught.

- pinch-racking has the palm of the support-hand oriented more towards the chest, allowing for the shooter to use their own sternum as an over-travel stop, before collecting the support-hand onto the gun off of a flat-hand on the high-center chest - allowing for greater congruency with specifically shooting methodology and the greater multi-disciplinary body (a la ECQC), while simultaneously eking performance benefit to the slighter-bodied shooter.