Don't be stupid (NSFW)

[bdcheung]

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/buster/assault/videotaped-baltimore-street-beating-879234

Horray, Baltimore. I am so excited to be spending 5 days there in a couple weeks.

[TCinVA]

Sometimes what one wants to say isn't a good idea to put into the permanent memory of the internet. So I'm just going to sit over here with my pie hole shut and watch some footage of Joe Bonamassa at Albert's Hall.

[ToddG]

I'd walk down the streets of D.C. naked at night before I'd go to Baltimore without a gun.

[bdcheung]

I'd walk down the streets of D.C. naked at night before I'd go to Baltimore without a gun.

*shrug*

I'm SOL.

[TGS]

Looks like BPD needs to get some stick time in on the upstanding citizens of Baltimore and put them in line.

[TGS]

*shrug*

I'm SOL.

Hire ToddG as your body guard! Buy him the "How To Archer" and he'll probably go the extra mile for you.

[TR675]

Common sense here.

(1) Don't go to crappy places. The entirety of Baltimore counts as a crappy place.

(2) If you have to go, bring friends and carry arms.

(3) If you have to go and can't bring armed friends, don't draw attention to yourself by wearing an expensive wrist watch like the Tag Heuer this guy had on.

My sister and brother in law live in Baltimore. The entire place is a dump. Watch your back...

[LOKNLOD]

(being afraid to click the link at work) Is this the seemingly incoherent guy in the Mountain Dew shirt getting violated by the jovially violent crowd?

[Zhurdan]

I find it oddly suspicious that people just "happened" to have their cameras rolling BEFORE the incident took place. Is it just a location thing? Hell, there could be a bona fide UFO hovering 50 meters over downtown where I live and it'd still take people 20 seconds to get their phones out and start filming, yet these nice folks seem to know when something is going to happen before it does.

As far as places like Baltimore... they can keep it. I have no need and don't foresee any need to ever go there.

[F-Trooper05]

Sometimes what one wants to say isn't a good idea to put into the permanent memory of the internet. So I'm just going to sit over here with my pie hole shut and watch some footage of Joe Bonamassa at Albert's Hall.

Big +1



(being afraid to click the link at work) Is this the seemingly incoherent guy in the Mountain Dew shirt getting violated by the jovially violent crowd?


Yup.

[JConn]

Yup, why I don't go to Baltimore.

[JMorse]

I find it oddly suspicious that people just "happened" to have their cameras rolling BEFORE the incident took place. Is it just a location thing? Hell, there could be a bona fide UFO hovering 50 meters over downtown where I live and it'd still take people 20 seconds to get their phones out and start filming, yet these nice folks seem to know when something is going to happen before it does.

I can literally have my phone out and camera running in 5 seconds. Hard to say what was heard or done prior to the footage starting.

[ToddG]

(1) Don't go to crappy places. The entirety of Baltimore counts as a crappy place.

(2) If you have to go, bring friends and carry arms.

(3) If you have to go and can't bring armed friends, don't draw attention to yourself by wearing an expensive wrist watch like the Tag Heuer this guy had on.

In fairness, you left out "(4) Don't wander around bad neighborhoods intoxicated to the point of incoherence."

[JodyH]

I am so glad my work related training was moved from Baltimore to Fairfax.

That being said.
I would never wander around blitzed out of my mind drunk, alone in public with a Tag watch on display.
That guy was chumming the sharks from the start.

[gtmtnbiker98]

I'm going to sit here and keep my Internet mouth shut.

[JConn]

In fairness, you left out "(4) Don't wander around bad neighborhoods intoxicated to the point of incoherence."

Bingo!

[JodyH]

Anytime my motivation to work out or train combatives is waning, I watch a few of these videos and I'm right back into it with a vengeance.

[TR675]

In fairness, you left out "(4) Don't wander around bad neighborhoods intoxicated to the point of incoherence."

Well, the video is NSFW, and I am at work...

Which is maybe the first and best time I've been able to use that excuse before posting knowledgeably about a video I haven't watched yet.

[Jac]

watch some footage of Joe Bonamassa at Albert's Hall.

Word. Loves us some Joe...

[TCinVA]

As for the running cameras...the people who live in that hood are probably more able to spot a beatdown on the horizon than your average joe.

[Byron]

Unfortunately, that's not even a bad area... well... I mean speaking for Baltimore.

That's right in the middle of our downtown area: completely non-residential. That's our courthouse he is knocked down in front of. That area is all office buildings.

I grew up less than a mile from there, and currently live less than 5 miles from there. As a lifelong resident, I certainly wouldn't say that's the safest area in the world, but if you asked me to name 50 dangerous locations in Baltimore, that wouldn't make the list. Hell, it wouldn't even make it onto my top 100.

Tourists being assaulted or robbed is relatively rare here. The majority of our violent crime is thug-on-thug with inevitable collateral damage within poor neighborhoods. Not saying this isn't a dangerous city. Not saying we don't have our war zones. Not even saying that anyone should consider visiting (though I'm happy to give recommendations if you do). I'm just saying that thankfully, incidents like this aren't the norm.

[ErnieB]

Granted the kid in the video is a moron and I understand the "don't do stupid things with stupid people in stupid places" thing but I am growing tired of this kind of mob mentality and outright neanderthal behavior. Sometimes I have to go to bad places for business, dmv, and several other reasons. I lived in Vegas for 11 years and most of the government buildings bordered some of the worst areas of the city. Am I just not supposed to go about my life because of assholes like this? At what point does someone realize that good law abiding people "don't go to Baltimore anymore" and do something about it. Believe me, I am getting older and never go looking for a fight so please don't read this post as a vigilante rant because it is not. Some days I grow weary of the social moral and ethical injustice that those who simply want to go about their daily life have to endure because of shitbags. Go anywhere in Vegas and try to buy spray paint, nasal decongestant, or even freakin' Gillette Mach 3 razors at CVS and you will have to find an employee to unlock a display while they eyefuck you to see if you are a criminal up to no good. I read a dude the riot act in Walmart one day when I needed 6 cans of white spray paint for a charity shooting event I put on a few years back when he refused to sell me all 6 cans at once!

I hope Baltimore PD catches all those involved. Even the women were savages. Nice life losers.

[UNK]

Didn't Forrest say "Stupid is as stupid does"? Being anywhere intoxicated out of your mind is a bad idea to start with. And what the hell was this ol boy looking for? Way way outside his element. Kind of like some of the kids getting jumped on Hood life. Way outside their element. And please don't talk to me about being able to go anywhere you want. This happens in every country in the world and in some places the results are gonna be a whole lot worse.
didn't Tom Givens say If you don't do drugs, Frequent prostitutes, Go to known bad areas, your chances of altercations are greatly reduced?

[TCinVA]

The guy walking around was obviously stupid...but at the same time it's morally offensive that the dude gets punched out and then the "bystanders" descend on him like a pack of wild animals, robbing him blind. The English language does not have sufficient capacity to accurately describe how utterly loathsome and despicable I find such behavior. It makes me hope that Karma visits the people who engaged in that kind of behavior...hopefully while driving a tank.

[Tamara]

That's right in the middle of our downtown area: completely non-residential. That's our courthouse he is knocked down in front of. That area is all office buildings.

Seriously? You can't swing a cat in front of the City/County building in Indy without hitting a cop. I mean, even in the worst cities they can at least guard the flagpole, y'know?

[Byron]

Seriously? You can't swing a cat in front of the City/County building in Indy without hitting a cop. I mean, even in the worst cities they can at least guard the flagpole, y'know?
Our police force is grossly underfunded and manpower is thin. When I go to visit family in DC and NoVA, I'm always amazed at how many marked units I see rolling around compared to Baltimore.

Our officers ride alone, in broken-down cars, with outdated equipment, and deal with most crime in the residential war zones, particularly the Western and Eastern districts. This took place in BPD's "Central" district, which I believe has the fewest number of residents (I could be wrong on that last point). They're far less likely to be patrolling around the commercial buildings in the evening than they are to be down at the Inner Harbor, the Convention Center, UM Medical Center, etc.

Given that this happened on St Patrick's day weekend, I can only assume that any additional manpower was being focused directly around bars and other known "hot spots" within the district (like Power Plant Live, where you can easily spot half a dozen cruisers on the lookout for drunken fisticuffs).

Without meaning any disrespect whatsoever to our men and women in uniform, this is not a city where you want to be looking for a cop. They do as best a job as they can, but longstanding budget issues have seriously hindered their ability to show a visible presence.

[TCinVA]

Without meaning any disrespect whatsoever to our men and women in uniform, this is not a city where you want to be looking for a cop. They do as best a job as they can, but longstanding budget issues have seriously hindered their ability to show a visible presence.

I've communicated fairly often with an individual who started his policing career on Baltimore PD and that's basically a pretty good rundown. To give you some idea of how different the experience is in Baltimore, he's never written a speeding ticket. He's never pulled somebody over for drunk driving. Ever. From the day he hit the street he's been making dope and gang busts, working shootings and stabbings, etc.

As bad as that individual getting knocked out and robbed is to see, I guarantee that on that night in Baltimore the PD was busy dealing with at least a couple of dozen problems that were worse than that. They just didn't make it onto video.

The PD in Baltimore is trying to bail water on the Titanic with a thimble...and in an environment that isn't exactly supportive of the police force.

[Suvorov]

Didn't Forrest say "Stupid is as stupid does"? Being anywhere intoxicated out of your mind is a bad idea to start with. And what the hell was this ol boy looking for? Way way outside his element. Kind of like some of the kids getting jumped on Hood life. Way outside their element. And please don't talk to me about being able to go anywhere you want. This happens in every country in the world and in some places the results are gonna be a whole lot worse.
didn't Tom Givens say If you don't do drugs, Frequent prostitutes, Go to known bad areas, your chances of altercations are greatly reduced?

Well, I for one have found myself in less savory places simply because my company puts me in a "downtown" hotel and I have to traverse a few blocks of no man's land just to get to an area with restaurants. When I have to do so, my head is on a swivel and I'm certainly not drunk, but I sure as heck ain't looking for trouble or drugs either. Some of my coworkers are not as careful and have had this happen to them. Just because a cracker is in a bad place, don't assume they are up to no good.

[TGS]

Didn't Forrest say "Stupid is as stupid does"? Being anywhere intoxicated out of your mind is a bad idea to start with. And what the hell was this ol boy looking for? Way way outside his element. Kind of like some of the kids getting jumped on Hood life. Way outside their element. And please don't talk to me about being able to go anywhere you want. This happens in every country in the world and in some places the results are gonna be a whole lot worse.
didn't Tom Givens say If you don't do drugs, Frequent prostitutes, Go to known bad areas, your chances of altercations are greatly reduced?


As pointed out, he wasn't in a bad area to begin with. There's a pretty popular section of Baltimore that is relatively safe, and well known for its nightlife. He's not far, nor is he in what would normally be considered a bad place.

As to him being "intoxicated out of his mind," where do you guys get that? Was he drunk? Sure. Did you hear him hit the ground? Do you realize that he's just been clocked pretty good? And none of you think that might have anything to do with his cognitive state when he's actually being filmed? No, obviously, he must've been a complete drunken retard, and he's obviously the problem here. Kinda makes me wonder if any of you know what getting punched in the head can feel like. It can be a little disorienting, to say the least.

Can we have an effect on our safety with the choices we make on where to go, and what to do? Yes. Would I have planned to do things differently than him? Yes. Still, keep in mind that outside of this internet world of paranoid gun forums, people do normal things like go out and have fun. That's a normal thing. Stop raking the guy over the coals just because he doesn't wear a tin-foil hat and refuse to go anywhere for fear of stepping outside. He's not the one to blame, here. Shit happens. Experience life a little bit, and you'll experience "shit". Regardless of how scared of the world any of you are, going to certain sections of Baltimore is not asking for trouble. He's not the bad person, here.

[JodyH]

Theres more videos of the lead up to the altercation.
In those videos its obvious the guy is extremely intoxicated.
Being a staggering drunk while solo in a strange city is just straight up stupid, no tinfoil required.
And getting sucker punched and robbed while staggering drunk is a life experience i can live without.

Hes not the bad guy, but he damn sure used poor judgement in getting his drink on.

Sent from my GT-P7510 using Tapatalk

[TGS]

Theres more videos of the lead up to the altercation.
In those videos its obvious the guy is extremely intoxicated.
Being a staggering drunk while solo in a strange city is just straight up stupid, no tinfoil required.
And getting sucker punched and robbed while staggering drunk is a life experience i can live without.

Sent from my GT-P7510 using Tapatalk

Can you link what video you're referencing? I can't find it.

I found this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dENltReP1U&feature=related

Where he's obviously not staggering drunk. He's walking pretty deliberately, actually.

[JHC]

As pointed out, he wasn't in a bad area to begin with. There's a pretty popular section of Baltimore that is relatively safe, and well known for its nightlife. He's not far, nor is he in what would normally be considered a bad place.

As to him being "intoxicated out of his mind," where do you guys get that? Was he drunk? Sure. Did you hear him hit the ground? Do you realize that he's just been clocked pretty good? And none of you think that might have anything to do with his cognitive state when he's actually being filmed? No, obviously, he must've been a complete drunken retard, and he's obviously the problem here. Kinda makes me wonder if any of you know what getting punched in the head can feel like. It can be a little disorienting, to say the least.

Can we have an effect on our safety with the choices we make on where to go, and what to do? Yes. Would I have planned to do things differently than him? Yes. Still, keep in mind that outside of this internet world of paranoid gun forums, people do normal things like go out and have fun. That's a normal thing. Stop raking the guy over the coals just because he doesn't wear a tin-foil hat and refuse to go anywhere for fear of stepping outside. He's not the one to blame, here. Shit happens. Experience life a little bit, and you'll experience "shit". Regardless of how scared of the world any of you are, going to certain sections of Baltimore is not asking for trouble. He's not the bad person, here.

+1000 FRAKKIN' A Braa!!!

[UNK]

Can you link what video you're referencing? I can't find it.

I found this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dENltReP1U&feature=related

Where he's obviously not staggering drunk. He's walking pretty deliberately, actually.

Whatever you want to call it is really not relevant is just arguing semantics. He is not in control of himself, unaware of his surroundings, guaranteed looking for something he shouldn't be on the street looking for. Didn't it say he woke up in his room the next AM and couldn't remember what happened? Thats drunk.

[UNK]

As pointed out, he wasn't in a bad area to begin with. There's a pretty popular section of Baltimore that is relatively safe, and well known for its nightlife. He's not far, nor is he in what would normally be considered a bad place.

As to him being "intoxicated out of his mind," where do you guys get that? Was he drunk? Sure. Did you hear him hit the ground? Do you realize that he's just been clocked pretty good? And none of you think that might have anything to do with his cognitive state when he's actually being filmed? No, obviously, he must've been a complete drunken retard, and he's obviously the problem here. Kinda makes me wonder if any of you know what getting punched in the head can feel like. It can be a little disorienting, to say the least.

Can we have an effect on our safety with the choices we make on where to go, and what to do? Yes. Would I have planned to do things differently than him? Yes. Still, keep in mind that outside of this internet world of paranoid gun forums, people do normal things like go out and have fun. That's a normal thing. Stop raking the guy over the coals just because he doesn't wear a tin-foil hat and refuse to go anywhere for fear of stepping outside. He's not the one to blame, here. Shit happens. Experience life a little bit, and you'll experience "shit". Regardless of how scared of the world any of you are, going to certain sections of Baltimore is not asking for trouble. He's not the bad person, here.

Paranoid gun forums??? Scared of the world??? So what you came here to make friends because you couldn't make friends on any of the other forums?
This dumbass abdicated all personal responsibility and sometime there is a price to be paid for that. Plain and simple.

[JDM]

We are talking about ideas and concerns related to the opening post. We are not talking about each other.

Stay on topic.

This is the only warning that will be given out.

[Tamara]

This dumbass abdicated all personal responsibility and sometime there is a price to be paid for that. Plain and simple.

Dude, that's what we call victim-blaming. No matter how short a skirt someone wears, it ain't a green light for some goblin to get his rape on.

Nobody deserves to get victimized, no matter how ill-considered their actions. Crime is crime and wrong is wrong, plain and simple..

[BaiHu]

Dude, that's what we call victim-blaming. No matter how short a skirt someone wears, it ain't a green light for some goblin to get his rape on.

Nobody deserves to get victimized, no matter how ill-considered their actions. Crime is crime and wrong is wrong, plain and simple..

Tam, can you get your mind mole outta my head? Welp, like she said-that's what I was gonna say, but I guess since I don't wear skirts, it's even more powerful coming from her :o

[TGS]

Dude, that's what we call victim-blaming. No matter how short a skirt someone wears, it ain't a green light for some goblin to get his rape on.

Nobody deserves to get victimized, no matter how ill-considered their actions. Crime is crime and wrong is wrong, plain and simple..

716

Ahmadinejad approves.

[TCinVA]

If a dude sneaks into a tiger cage and gets mauled to death, I can't see having too much sympathy for him.

Somebody who is walking down the street of a U.S. city that catches a beat-down and robbery isn't exactly the same phenomenon, folks.

[ToddG]

Still, keep in mind that outside of this internet world of paranoid gun forums, people do normal things like go out and have fun. That's a normal thing.

Muggings, rapes, and murders are also "a normal thing" from that perspective. Most of the people on this forum -- yourself included, I know -- put a great deal of energy and money into (1) avoiding and (2) preparing for such commonplace happenings. That doesn't make us paranoid, and suggesting otherwise smacks of the kinds of things the antis say about gun owners.

There is no question the guy in the video was a victim. I don't think you'll find a single person here who believes he should be punished or imprisoned for walking down the street intoxicated. Not a single person here believes the criminals who viciously attacked him were innocent or entitled.

You're confusing threat analysis with blame. Looking at the situation, acknowledging that the victim made poor choices, and trying to learn from his poor choices is not the same as saying he deserved what he got or that he was the bad actor in all of this.

[Tamara]

You're confusing threat analysis with blame. Looking at the situation, acknowledging that the victim made poor choices, and trying to learn from his poor choices is not the same as saying he deserved what he got or that he was the bad actor in all of this.

This is true. It can be hard for some people to grok the difference between "Hey, it's probably not a good idea to _______," and "There's a price to be paid for _______."

As TCinVA noted, there's an important line between self-inflicted misery (Getting drunk and walking off a cliff) and misery inflicted by others that takes advantage of one's own bad decisions (Getting pushed off a cliff because you were drunk.)

When people start referring to the willful criminal actions of others as "the price" one must pay for bad choices, we wind up on the slippery slope that has honor killings at the bottom.

(But, yeah, that video is obviously the final chapter of a night spent making wrong turns at every junction on the decision tree.)

[TGS]

Looking at the situation, acknowledging that the victim made poor choices, and trying to learn from his poor choices is not the same as saying he deserved what he got or that he was the bad actor in all of this.

I think the latter is exactly what a lot of people in this thread are doing....some sort of complex and feeling the need to validate their choices in life, and make themselves feel righteous. The process of learning from someone's mistakes isn't reflected by a pileup of people lambasting a person. That's evidence of a completely different process taking place.


suggesting otherwise smacks of the kinds of things the antis say about gun owners.

So I guess NJ is rubbing off on me. :D Beware. I'm coming for your guns and freedoms. They will be replaced with gas station attendants and morbidly obese politicians.

[TGS]

(But, yeah, that video is obviously the final chapter of a night spent making wrong turns at every junction on the decision tree.)

See, we don't necessarily know that.

Why was he at that specific location? Maybe that's where he was told there'd be easy cabs to catch. Maybe it was a spot that was picked out as an easily identifiable landmark for his family to pick him up at. Since he was a tourist, maybe he was told it's most likely a safe place to choose for these objectives since it's got a relatively low crime rate and is out front of a courthouse.

It just so happened that on that night, it wasn't a safe spot. So maybe he had a plan in place, and it went sour. Maybe he didn't have a plan in place, was drunk and stoned out of his mind, and saw a bunch of potential dealers thinking, "Oh sweet I can score some weed. Maybe if I hang around long enough I can get some."

We don't know. It's not awfully hard to get placed in his position if a person has anything resembling a social life within an urban setting.

[Zhurdan]

In the last video posted in this thread, it appears he was a victim of more than just getting his clock cleaned. The dude that knocked his Saturday back to Tuesday was trying to steal something from his front pocket.

All in all, I'd say the "crowd" was mocking him from the start. Ms. Ghetto Booty in particular.

Worst part is, the guy who threw the punch didn't just bing, bang, pow the guy, he backed up and wound up a punch that would normally be prefaced with a deeply toned "FINISH HIM" from the heavens.

This video sure clears a few questions up that I had as to why there were cameras rolling.

[TGS]

It's not awfully hard to avoid, either, even with a social life. Drunks have been getting rolled for as long as there's been alcohol. People (especially people in anonymous crowds) have been prone to really bad behavior for as long as there have been people. I really have a hard time seeing why this event is particularly newsworthy.

It's even easier to say how to avoid it when sitting behind a computer.

In person, most people have a lot less fortitude and confidence than they think....even to do something seemingly so easy when viewed in 20/20 hindsight.

So maybe a good lesson from this isn't to point out the obvious, but to say, "Hmm, since I don't do this on a regular basis, maybe I should get some flight time on actually interacting with contacts in a precarious but uncertain environment where I don't know what peoples' motivations or intents are. If only there were a course where you could practice managing unknown contacts."

And ya know what? That flight time isn't going to happen by sitting behind a computer while pointing out the obvious.

[JMorse]

Let me first say I know nothing about tactics, aside from what I've read in Clancy/Rucka type books and am here primarily because putting holes in paper is great fun.

How would you folks respond to this situation if you were there? I can only assume that your gun wouldn't be the only one on the scene. I've been thinking about what I'd have done if I was there and armed and I'm coming up pretty much empty aside from 'I wonder how many I could put down before I bought it' if that was me.

[Byron]

We don't know. It's not awfully hard to get placed in his position if a person has anything resembling a social life within an urban setting.
We don't know everything that led up to the event, but we can see numerous missed opportunities in the video itself.

There are three different videos that I know of so far. It wouldn't surprise me if more surfaced:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=0c0_1333571524
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=679_1332640868
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/buster/assault/videotaped-baltimore-street-beating-879234


Again, not blaming the victim here, just pointing out potential clues, warnings, and moments of opportunity:

1. At the start of video #1, we see the soon-to-be victim staring blankly into space while a crowd swarms around him
2. The crowd recognizes that he is operating at reduced capacity; we hear one of the women shout "he must be drunk or somethin!"
3. One person walks up next to him, just a few feet away, and loudly proclaims, "Let's get his car keys!" There is no way this cannot be overheard by the victim (0:08)
4. Other crowd members laugh about him and talk about taking his money (debatable whether or not he overheard)
5. Girls start grinding on him; he still shows no physical or verbal reaction (0:20)
6. The first move is made around (0:29) when someone reaches into his pocket and takes something out, attempting to then get away
7. The victim still hasn't said a word, but starts walking towards the original perpetrator with hands down at his waist and his chin up in the air
8. The first punch is thrown at around (0:33) and everyone swarms for their easy piece of the action at that point

Local news stories indicate that the victim woke up in his hotel room the next morning, with no memory whatsoever of the incident, but a realization that his keys, wallet, watch, and phone were gone. Would have been the "perfect crime" had the crowd not filmed it. After all, the victim can't make a great robbery report if he doesn't even know what happened to him, much less where.

Based on a number of factors above, not to mention the fact that he was out partying on St Patrick's Day weekend, I'm inclined to believe that the victim was very intoxicated. Of course, there is room for disagreement as to how drunk he was, but in my experience, once people get to the point that they aren't even speaking any more, it means they are really far gone. I believe that if he had been sober, or mildly drunk, he would have at least said, "Hey!" or "Stop!" or "Get back here with my keys!" I can't tell that he verbalizes a single thought throughout the entire incident - before, during, or after the actual assault.

Whatever led him to be on that sidewalk at that time, the bottom line is that he had at least 20 seconds worth of overt, unmistakable warnings before the assault. I'm not talking about subtle clues here: but the fact that people were shouting their intent of robbing him. If the video was rolling longer, I bet we would have seen even more warnings, though more subtle, such as body language, etc.

Once it started, this was not the type of scenario that you need special training to see coming. And 20 seconds may not seem like a lot, but watch it play out: that's a lifetime.

Would he have gotten away if he had started running the second someone suggested robbing him? Maybe. Maybe not. I don't know. I doubt he was in much condition to run. But he certainly would have had a better chance at escaping than at what he tried to do: just walking towards the pickpocket.

Again, I'm not trying to blame the victim, but as Todd says, I do want to point out huge clues and opportunities that were missed. It doesn't matter how many classes we take or how deadly we are; if we alter our senses so severely that a person can walk up and say, "Let's get his car keys!" without any reaction... well... that's going to be a rough night.

[ToddG]

I think the latter is exactly what a lot of people in this thread are doing....some sort of complex and feeling the need to validate their choices in life, and make themselves feel righteous.

I just haven't read it that way. It's not "he was drunk, sucks to be him." It was "he was drunk in public walking alone down the streets of Baltimore, that was stupid and then some really bad people took advantage of it."

I don't feel righteous about my choices in life, but without question this video goes towards validating them.

It all boils down to this: Who do I feel should be punished for what happened in that video? The people who beat up and robbed the drunk guy. They're the only ones who broke the law. But that doesn't mean I should bury my head and pretend that the victim's decisions played no role in his being selected by the predators. If anything, this should be a learning point.


So I guess NJ is rubbing off on me.

Admitting you have a problem is the first step.

[Byron]

So maybe a good lesson from this isn't to point out the obvious, but to say, "Hmm, since I don't do this on a regular basis, maybe I should get some flight time on actually interacting with contacts in a precarious but uncertain environment where I don't know what peoples' motivations or intents are. If only there were a course where you could practice managing unknown contacts."
There's nothing very murky about someone's intent when they shout "Let's get his car keys!" 20 seconds before touching you. I don't think MUC should be needed to interpret such warnings.


How would you folks respond to this situation if you were there? I can only assume that your gun wouldn't be the only one on the scene. I've been thinking about what I'd have done if I was there and armed and I'm coming up pretty much empty aside from 'I wonder how many I could put down before I bought it' if that was me.
I would get the hell out of Dodge the second a crowd started migrating around me.
There's no way the entire crowd will pursue you. If a few do, you've at least reduced the number of people you might have to actually confront.

[JMorse]

Archer would back into a corner and kill em all with his claymore belt buckle.

[Tamara]

How would you folks respond to this situation if you were there?

You mean if I suddenly found myself downtown, after dark, by myself, and stumblin' drunk?

Dude, I try to concern myself with more probable scenarios, like alien abductions or the zombie apocalypse. ;)


See, we don't necessarily know that.

Okay, change my "obviously" to "apparently", but I stand by my statement.

And don't get too sure about "social lives" and "urban environments". I live in my city's main party neighborhood, and do get out and about, even on foot or bicycle! (Of course, we haven't had a dead body found within twenty blocks of where I'm sitting in... um... over thirty-six hours (http://www.indystar.com/article/20120410/NEWS/120410010/Body-found-Broad-Ripple-Canal-may-woman).)

[JMorse]

Marry me, Tam? You amuse me greatly.

[TGS]

I think some members are misunderstanding my points and talking past me to ideas I'm not trying to purport. Apparently I haven't been clear enough, so I'm going to write this here as my closing for this thread. If you feel that I'm speaking to you, and feel the need to defend yourself, then don't bother. Not that I won't read it, but I'm leaving this more as something to chew on during your self-reflection time in the day. Likewise, this is not directed at everyone I may have directly addressed/responded to in this thread.

I never said that there wasn't something he could have done differently, or that I myself wouldn't have planned differently.

However, I wouldn't be so sure.....so unequivocally positive.....in your skills of decision making and awareness to feel it necessary to label this guy as stupid, and that he is something so worthy of the title that we should place him on the alter of stupid, which creates a separation between ourselves and his stupidity. We're humans. We're imperfect. If you think you will act perfectly in an imperfect situation as your 20/20 hindsight tells you when watching this video, then okay.

With that outlook on life, I have the feeling that a lot of people who've commented in this thread may find themselves humbled at one point in life by certain similar situations.

I see this social trait all the time in other high-risk activities. Technical divers on internet forums will be so harshly critical of a divers' decision making to the point that they segregate him to the pedestal of stupidity. Then, whatcha' know, a few months or a few years later the same people post up a situation where they themselves were just as dumb and have forever readjusted their level of humility. Or, they die and we read about it, and I end up buying some of their gear on the cheap from their family/friends. When I dive into a cave for 3 hours, or penetrate a decaying shipwreck off the East coast at 160 feet, about half of the gear I'm wearing is from people who have perished doing what I'm about to do. I purposely arranged this setup for 2 reasons:
1) Used gear is cheaper than new, especially when a dead persons family/friends just want to get rid of it and move on.
2) To remind myself that they're no different than me, and I'm not better than they are.

With that, I'll repeat this: A pileup of people lambasting a person as stupid is not a learning process. It's something completely different.

Just something to chew on from someone who despite his young age of 27 has been thoroughly humbled in life/death situations, and realizes the only reason he's here today was because he got lucky once or twice.


Archer would back into a corner and kill em all with his claymore belt buckle.

Awesome. I want one!




And don't get too sure about "social lives" and "urban environments". I live in my city's main party neighborhood, and do get out and about, even on foot or bicycle! (Of course, we haven't had a dead body found within twenty blocks of where I'm sitting in... um... over thirty-six hours (http://www.indystar.com/article/20120410/NEWS/120410010/Body-found-Broad-Ripple-Canal-may-woman).)

Stay safe. You're my favorite politically incorrect gun blogger.

[JV_]

Local news stories indicate that the victim woke up in his hotel room the next morning, with no memory whatsoever of the incident, but a realization that his keys, wallet, watch, and phone were gone.

I can't imagine relying on a cell phone video, of your beating, to fill in a memory gap; that would/should be a life changing event...

[bdcheung]

I wonder how he got into his room?

[BaiHu]

I'd like to make a distinction b/w this guy on St Patty's day and the kid who got a 7 on 1 beating in this thread:
http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?2845-7-teens-gang-up-on-you-what-is-the-consensus-on-how-to-respond&highlight=attacked

The above kid was sober and lured into a bad situation and we all discussed how we would a) avoid it in the first place and b) what to do when we're stuck in the 'inevitable'.

This guy was a) not lured as far as we know and b) did not know what to do when the jackals started to cackle. Regarding not knowing what to do, it is quite possible that PC (political correctness) is a mitigating factor-meaning, he might have been conflicted about moving away from people who made him feel uncomfortable, b/c then he'd be seen as a racist. He's alone, he's being teased and he's outnumbered; does he run? does he preemptively strike? does he start mouthing off? Like Zimmerman and any other case, we are making assumptions for the sake of education/discussion, so let's make a separate list b/w assumption and fact.

Assumption/Fact

He's stupid/He seemed to be drinking
He's risky/He was a tourist who didn't know his way
He has no clue/He was in front of a governmental building, which one would assume (sorry) that it is safer than the dive bar
He has no skills/He did not have his back to anyone and everyone was in front of him
He never reacted/Physically his reactions were not what we would have wanted if we were a) in his place and b) not drunk and c) having 20/20

I've been teaching martial arts for 15 years and I have seen people in a 'safe sparring' exchange get technically destroyed for a minute. As long as they are in no danger, I allow them to get destroyed, b/c there is a lesson. In this particular case, I knew I was dealing with a 'heady' student, who spent a lot of time masticating ideas, strategies and tactics, but rarely stayed alive long enough to implement them.

Me: Did you see that you were looking so hard at your opponent that your head leaned into him and past your guard?
Student: I was just trying to find an opening. I had all these ideas about what I was going to do once I got my opening.

This is paralysis by analysis. Drunk, sober or high, all types of people can get there and as hard as I've trained, on any given day, I too can get hit, knocked out or worse-I am, by my nature, fallible. OTOH, some people might even be better drunk or high, especially given the type of 'additive'.

The bottom line is the guy got smashed for no reason. Could he have been better prepared? Probably. Would he have been better off with a gun/knife? In that situation, I'm not sure if it would have scared enough jackals. Should he have been preemptive physically? Again, very iffy situation even if you're Jackie Chan/Bruce Lee/ToddG. Should he have been more verbal and entered his MUC mode? Ideally, but without anything else to back it up, I'm guessing even SouthNarc would say he'd be effed w/o something behind the voice, but I haven't gotten to ECQC yet (this May).

Just me 2 cents for thought.

[JV_]

He has no skillsHe has no skills [when drunk] is probably more accurate.


Would he have been better off with a gun/knife?A drunk with a gun and/or knife would probably have made that situation a lot worse, mostly for him.

[BaiHu]

He has no skills [when drunk] is probably more accurate.

A drunk with a gun and/or knife would probably have made that situation a lot worse, mostly for him.

Ding!! I should've known a STAFF member would be able to read my cryptic chronicling :p

This is why I made a big distinction b/w the 7 on 1 thread and this-when you're a bit tipsy it's a bad time to bring in a force multiplier when the force in front of you keeps multiplying against you. "Know when to walk away, know when to run!"

[Al T.]

How would you folks respond to this situation if you were there?

Call the cops. Be a good witness and perhaps try to keep him from being killed. Maintain an evacuation plan if the mob turns on me. As far as his stuff, well, it's just stuff. I could couldn't care less if they strip him nekkid, hurting him further would be of some concern.

And that depends on my being armed and single. If I have a family and/or a date, my safety gets ratcheted up a notch or three and I'd probably start executing the "A" in ADEE.

Pulling a gun on a crowd of people (particularly if they are a different ethnicity) is pretty foolish. My firearm is to keep me (and friends & family) hale and hearty, others not so much. Interjecting your self into such a cauldron is incredibly risky (ask Zimmerman). :rolleyes:

[ErnieB]

Funny how we never hear about the incident that started this thread but this thread is all over the news today:

http://news.yahoo.com/md-neighborhood-watch-trial-set-against-fla-fury-140920015.html

[TCinVA]

Funny how we never hear about the incident that started this thread but this thread is all over the news today:

http://news.yahoo.com/md-neighborhood-watch-trial-set-against-fla-fury-140920015.html

A politically correct society is one that denies fundamental realities because they are unsanitary. Because reality is persistent in the face of fantasy, there are consequences...like, for lack of a better term, urban tribalism.