GSSF Lessons Learned

[JonInWA]

Last weekend, I had a chance to shoot my one GSSF match of the year, at Port Townsend, WA. GSSF matches are not dynamic-they're all shot standing still, gun drawn at low ready, and the stages are pre-determined (albeit with some minor variations allowed, but skill-set and configuration-wise, they're essentially the same).

I've shot GSSF matches for some 14 years; in the past, especially before I got significantly involved with IDPA, I would shoot 3-4 GSSF matches a year, and had gotten pretty grooved in performance-wise. Also prior to my IDPA involvement, my primary pistol competition venue was steel plate competitions, which is a third of a GSSF match, as out of the 3 GSSF stages per division, one is the steel plate stage. I've found GSSF to be a great venue for measuring certain performance criteria with my Glocks over a multi-year period, plus I've won some great swag over the years from GSSF, including 2 Glocks previously.

Historically, my best performing Glocks in all venues have been my G17 and G19, but I've regularly competed with my G21-but generally only in GSSF for one division.

I usually extensively dryfire practice, using a miniaturized set of GSSF targest, enabling me to recreate each individual GSSF stage.

In the past several years, I've been concentrating with near exclusivity on my Beretta 92D DAO and HK P30L V1.5 LEM. This year, I did do a training course with my Gen4 G22, and used my G19 in an IDPA match a week prior to the GSF match.

Huge lesson learned: You simply can't expect a pure dryfire program to provide sufficient match preparation without a concurrent live-fire program-which I painfully realized with my G21 in .45 ACP in last weekend's GSSF match...

The recoil intensity and force is both significantly greater and different then 9mm characteristics (I compete with factory full-power loadings; for my G19 and G17, I used American Eagle 124 gr ball, for the G21, Sellier & Bellot 230 gr ball). My other decision of questionable merit (hindsight being 20-20) was to go with a NY1 trigger spring in conjunction with a dot connector in the G21. The G19 and G17 both utilized a coil trigger spring, the G19 with a dot connector, the G17 with a standard connnector.

While I like the dot connector in the G21, the NY1 was not a good decision for me, especially when I was concurrently competing with other Glocks using the coil trigger spring. The upshot was that the heavier triggerpull, and the inherent NY1 triggerpull characteristics had me being thrown by the heavier pull and break point, an consistantly shooting low, and then sometimes disastrously overcompensating sight picture wise with the G21 (which has great sights-a set of Warren/Sevigny Carry sights, with the front sight blade painted bright red).

Clearly, I needed two things to have been done well prior to the match:

1. Incorporation of .45 ACP livefiring and/or competition use of the G21, particularly with the 230 gr Sellier & Bellot ammunition used;

2. Objectively weighting and quantifiably assessing the merits of the NY1 and coil trigger spring set up for me in that particular gun.

Subsequent to the match, I've already switched the trigger spring back to the OEM coil trigger spring. Now I need to re-familiarize and re-qualify with the gun as equipped, and then make the determination if I can be credibly effectively with the G21. If not, I may well sell it, to a friend who's desired mine for years.

Objective decisions are sometimes difficult to execute. My G21 is a Gen3, and has been mechanically a superb, flawless performer over the years, so I have some history and emotional investment in the gun. However, the reality is that I simply had not shot it in approximately 2 years, so now I need to reassess in several areas-how well I can shoot it with the cartridges chosen for match/duty/concealed carry/home defense, and if I'm willing to dedicate the time and resources necessary to more regularly shoot it to maintain acceptable competence.

If either decision area is a no-go, then I probably need to divest myself of it, and spend the proceeds on the platforms that I have greater competence with, and with the concurrent willingness to dedicate the necessary resources to establish and maintain base-line performance with.

Best, Jon

[Mr_White]

Good observations, Jon. FWIW, every time I have come away from trying any of the NY trigger springs in combination with any of the allowed OEM connectors, my feeling is that while there are other reasons one might choose to use a NY spring in a Glock, more accurate shooting (than with other OEM configurations) is not among them. Others mileage may vary, but for me it only detracts from the accuracy/time composite.

[spinmove_]

Good observations, Jon. FWIW, every time I have come away from trying any of the NY trigger springs in combination with any of the allowed OEM connectors, my feeling is that while there are other reasons one might choose to use a NY spring in a Glock, more accurate shooting (than with other OEM configurations) is not among them. Others mileage may vary, but for me it only detracts from the accuracy/time composite.

Agreed. I’m a huge fan of the stock spring and minus connector on all of my Glocks.


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[JonInWA]

Several years ago, I experimented for one season with a NY2 in the G21, which internet rumor would have one believe that two men and a boy are necessary to effect the trigger pull, and the only reason it exists at all is because of draconian, overly concerned LEO administrators of certain New York departments that were coming off revolvers to Glocks. While the administrator part may be accurate, I actually found the NY2 to be interesting, in that it did in fact approximate somewhat of a revolver-like triggerpull in the G21.

With the NY2 in the G21, my GSSF Heavy Metal score was actually BETTER than with the NY1. But as I recall, I was coming off a period where I had been using revolvers. Also, while I somewhat surprisingly performed semi-decently with the NY2, I remember that after completing 3 of the 4 Glock The Plates runs, my trigger finger was pretty tired, and my time for the fourth run increased significantly, so I decided to switch it out, initially going with the NY1 and then to the OEM coil spring, and then, before this year's match, to the NY2. I didn't perceive all that much difference between the NY1 and NY2 pull weight wise per se, and in comparing my 2017 score where I performed semi-decently with the NY2 (compared to this year's fur-ball with the NY1), when I look at my G21/NY2 scores compared to my G17/coil spring scores that year, I shot the G17 SIGNIFICANTLY better than the G21, to the tune of 100 points better in both divisions where I shot my G17.

While not overly onerous, my thoughts are that the G21 (at least my Gen 3 "big butt"/non-SF G21) is inherently a bit more difficult shoot, and that's before factoring in the recoil characteristics of the .45 ACP cartridge with factory full house standard pressure loads. As Mr._White has astutely pointed out, and especially regarding the larger-framed G21 for me, the NY springs are more of hindrance, especially, somewhat oddly, with the NY1 compared to the NY2 for me. The NY2 is clearly more revolver-like, which for me is not necessarily a bad thing (especially in conjunction with or immediately subsequent to a period of revolver concentration), while my thoughts are the NY1 are neither fish nor foul, and unduly complicates things for me with its differentiated trigger pull characteristics both inherently and in conjunction with using Glocks with the coil trigger spring.

In the next week or so, I hope to spend some range time with the G21 with its re-installed OEM coil trigger spring. I do like it with the dot connector, which while providing a slightly lighter triggerpull than the standard connector in a Gen 3 Glock, is still reasonably heavy enough for duty/carry use.

Best, Jon

[JonInWA]

Several years ago, I experimented for one season with a NY2 in the G21, which internet rumor would have one believe that two men and a boy are necessary to effect the trigger pull, and the only reason it exists at all is because of draconian, overly concerned LEO administrators of certain New York departments that were coming off revolvers to Glocks. While the administrator part may be accurate, I actually found the NY2 to be interesting, in that it did in fact approximate somewhat of a revolver-like triggerpull in the G21.

With the NY2 in the G21, my GSSF Heavy Metal score was actually BETTER than with the NY1. But as I recall, I was coming off a period where I had been using revolvers. Also, while I somewhat surprisingly performed semi-decently with the NY2, I remember that after completing 3 of the 4 Glock The Plates runs, my trigger finger was pretty tired, and my time for the fourth run increased significantly, so I decided to switch it out, initially going with the NY1 and then to the OEM coil spring, and then, before this year's match, to the NY2. I didn't perceive all that much difference between the NY1 and NY2 pull weight wise per se, and in comparing my 2017 score where I performed semi-decently with the NY2 (compared to this year's fur-ball with the NY1), when I look at my G21/NY2 scores compared to my G17/coil spring scores that year, I shot the G17 SIGNIFICANTLY better than the G21, to the tune of 100 points better in both divisions where I shot my G17.

While not overly onerous, my thoughts are that the G21 (at least my Gen 3 "big butt"/non-SF G21) is inherently a bit more difficult shoot, and that's before factoring in the recoil characteristics of the .45 ACP cartridge with factory full house standard pressure loads. As Mr._White has astutely pointed out, and especially regarding the larger-framed G21 for me, the NY springs are more of hindrance, especially, somewhat oddly, with the NY1 compared to the NY2 for me. The NY2 is clearly more revolver-like, which for me is not necessarily a bad thing (especially in conjunction with or immediately subsequent to a period of revolver concentration), while my thoughts are the NY1 are neither fish nor foul, and unduly complicates things for me with its differentiated trigger pull characteristics both inherently and in conjunction with using Glocks with the coil trigger spring.

In the next week or so, I hope to spend some range time with the G21 with its re-installed OEM coil trigger spring. I do like it with the dot connector, which while providing a slightly lighter triggerpull than the standard connector in a Gen 3 Glock, is still reasonably heavy enough for duty/carry use.

Best, Jon

In re-reading this (of course after the editing time expiration) I realized that I'd screwed up the sequence of events regarding my G21 trigger spring saga-Here's the JonInWA restatement of the second paragraph:

Original setup: OEM coil trigger spring, standard connector

First change: OEM coil trigger spring, dot connector

Second change NY2 (orange, heavy) spring, dot connector

Third change: OEM coil trigger spring, dot connector

Fourth change: NY1 (olive) spring, dot connector

Current setup: OEM coil trigger spring, dot connector.

Whew. I'm dizzy....

Other G21 components: Glock extended slide release, Pierce butt plug, Warren/Sevigny Carry sights, segment of mountain bike innertube over receiver grip area for additional grip traction

Best, Jon

[JonInWA]

Went to a square range, and commenced with examination and solution. My initial shooting was nicely centered, but low. Switching to a more deliberate (at least initially) proper rolling triggerpull resulted in exceptionally accurate center of mass POA/POI.

Seems I was doing a bit of the "grab and yank" sloppy triggerpull, pulling my shots low, and then attempting to effect sight compensation (as opposed to performing a proper triggerpull) at the GSSF match.

Good practice, and it only took me 30 rounds to properly diagnose, and 20 more to verify my solution. Going back to fundamentals, amazingly enough, isn't a bad thing at all...

Now for more practice, and in a September IDPA match I'll see how things practically bear fruit.

Best, Jon

[ubervic]

Excellent summary.

Sorry to be daft here, but I'm not understanding why you're still wanting to run the G21 vs 9mm versions. :confused:

[SecondsCount]

I'm no pro but here is the way I look at it- What will get me to first place? Is it sights, triggers, or buying a lot of ammo and spending QUALITY time at the range improving my shooting to get me there. If you created a pie chart of those items, I guarantee that practice would cover about 80% of the chart.

If there was one thing that I learned from TLG, it was to push yourself past the limit of accuracy and then dial it down a little. Find the wall and try to break through it. If you are feeling like your accuracy is really starting to improve then increase speed. A shot timer is a great tool for this, even on an indoor range.

[JonInWA]

Excellent summary.

Sorry to be daft here, but I'm not understanding why you're still wanting to run the G21 vs 9mm versions. :confused:

Options, man, options.

Ok, seriously, from a performance point, you're absolutely correct-I perform better, and mo' betta' easier, with my 9mm G19 and G17. And those are the ones that I tend to concentrate on.

But, that said, the G21 is still an excellent gun, and the .45 ACP an eminently viable cartridge. And the G21s have a reputation for better than average accuracy; mine, when properly shot by me exemplifies that.

Another reason is for winter carry; when there's a likelihood of a hollowpoint projectile not opening up and expanding, potentially due to being plugged by multiple layers of clothing, all other things being equal, I find .45 (or .40) to be slightly preferable to 9mm. Probably that presumed .45 ACP advantage has been diminished by 9mm cartridge and bullet improvements, but until I see and empirically experience otherwise, I'll assume that there is still some benefit to .45 ACP in such scenarios.

And my particular G21 is a Gen 3, and exceptionally well proven, and with the superior finish on top of the Tenifer that Glock was using at the time of its production. Despite thousands of rounds downrange, and being extensively carried, drawn, and re-holstered in kydex holsters, mine still looks almost new. In all my years of use, I've experienced literally one malfunction; a failure to chamber caused by a grossly misshapen and over-sized WWB cartridge's bullet, which certainly can't be counted against the G21. I've also (now) got the fire control system set up the best for me, and I've got a good set of sights on it-Warren Sevigny Carrys. And a nice accumulation of holsters, magazines (and magazine pouches).

If I can't shoot it decently, especially after a suitable protocol of dry- and live-fire practice, I may re-think my position. I do have a friend who has shot it and wants it waiting in the wings, and I suppose that I could then go with a G19X or G47 in 9mm.

But for the time being, I'll capitalize on the mechanical accuracy and other innate qualities inherent to my G21 and work on me. A "challenge gun" can force one to re-focus on fundamentals and figuring out how to best work with the tool at hand, which isn't necessarily a bad thing in my book. The techniques I have to master with it should nicely transfer over to other platforms which are intrinsically easier for me to shoot, making me a better shooter both with them and all-around. That's my theory/story, and I'm sticking to it, man (intoned in best Bart Simpson voice, of course).

Another couple of factors mitigating for keeping the G21 are its capability of being shot in 3 IDPA divisions-SSP, CDP and ESP, and in GSSF for Guardian, Competition and Heavy Metal divisions (and Unlimited, if I simply want to play in as many GSSF divisions as possible).

And I fully realize that shooting 3 different Glocks in two different calibers with differing fire control components was not my brightest decision in terms of optimizing my GSSF performance in a given match, but I knew that, and deliberately wanted to exercise the three Glocks. In future GSSF matches, if I want to use the G21, the smarter decision would be to use it in all the divisions that I'm shooting, and save the other Glocks for other GSSF matches.

Best, Jon

[JonInWA]

Update, guys: Since I started the thread, I was of two minds; 1: Sell the G21 to a friend who's familiar with it since I bought it in 2004, and knows how I take care of my kit, or 2: Work the problem, diagnose my issues and determine the necessary corrective action(s), and, if not inordinately resource intensive (or expensive), execute corrective action and assess results. If effective, keep the G21, and build muscle memory on it to preclude recurrences of issues.

I ended up performing several corrective actions:

1. As I mentioned earlier, I replaced the NY1 with the standard coil trigger spring;
2. I performed a live fire session with my normal ball practice cartridge, Sellier & Bellot 230 gr, and verified that it was primarily sloppy triggerpull and follow-through that was the causal issue;
3. Slightly revised my grip, exerting a bit more force on the lower portion of my support hand to the frame to better minimize/control muzzle flip;
4. Proceeded with a conscientious dry-fire program 5-6 day of the week to build muscle memory on my corrected trigger pull and follow-through; and
5. Campaigned the G21 in last weekend's IDPA match.

Gratifyingly, on my very first stage in the match, where I was the first on the squad to shoot, I shot it "down zero." I also accomplished that on another stage, and had generally points down on all stages except the last, when fatigue kicked in a bit from both SO'ing and shooting all day-my bad, not the gun's.

I also had a very experienced friend who's not only an IDPA Expert, but a former Top Shot competitor (and recent IDPA State Divisional Champion), and who also extensively carried the G21 on duty critique me throughout the match. His comments were basically that I was shooting very smoothly and effectively driving the gun; much better than others he's seen utilize a G21, and basically superior to what he's seen me do previously this year (there may be a compliment in there somewhere...)-and that I definitely should keep the G21. He also liked my sight setup, which is a set of Warren/Sevigney Carry black sights, with the front sight face first given an underlayment coat of white paint, followed by a bright red upper coat; I believe that the front sight is .125 thick and the rear sight square notch is .150 wide.

Conclusions: The problem was me (yeah, I know, shocker...). Primarily due to poor trigger control, but I'm also thinking that with the relatively slow .45 ACP projectile, follow-through can be important immediately after ignition prior to prepping for the next shot due to the amount of dwell time involved from triggerpull/ignition to the bullet exiting the barrel. Grip is also important, concerning both hand positioning and exertion of proportional desirable force on the frame, especially toward the frame bottom, controlled significantly by the lower two fingers on the support hand.

On my Gen 3 "big butt" (Non-SF) receiver, I've also added a segment of mountain bike innertube for additional grippiness without inducing disproportionate additional thickness. That essentially gives me the same grippiness as does the Gen4 polymods, and does not seem to grab at concealment garments. I've comparatively fired my Gen 3 with both a Gen 3 G21 SF and a Gen4, and while I liked the frame improvements on the Gen4 (polymid grip finish and larger magazine release), I didn't particularly feel that I benefited from the grip reduction of either the SF or the Gen4. I also did not personally notice and significant reduction in recoil force from the triple-nested RSA of the Gen4 G21.

Essentially, what I have is a 2002 production-vintage Gen 3 that I purchased brand new in 2004 that has mechanically performed flawlessly for 10,000 plus rounds, with the more desirable vintage tennifer/semi-matte black oxide (teflon frying pan) finish, that's got a great set of sights, running with a "dot" connector and Glock extended slide release, and plenty of accumulated magazines and holsters. I'm confident that I can run it both adequately and well, and there are benefits of having a larger capacity .45 ACP Glock. So-It's a keeper. But I acknowledge that I need to better incorporate it into my operational cycle to maintain relative proficiency with it; I'll probably make it my standard carry/duty gun for the winter months primarily. I also like the challenge it presents-and being a relatively soft-shooting .45, it's not onerous to shoot-actually, I thoroughly enjoy it. Realistically, particularly given my relative skill-set, it's unlikely that I can shoot it as fast and my smaller-frame Glocks, but there are still situational advantages to using .45 ACP cartridges that continually justify it, at least in my mind/opinion.

While the G21 does not necessarily have the exquisite ergonomics and natural index that I have with my HK pistols (P30L and VP40) and smaller-framed Glocks (G17/G19/G22), it is an excellent pistol, but a bit more demanding to achieve and maintain operational excellence with. I need to adapt myself to the big Glock's dimensions, so arguably is a gun that can be more effectively mastered and utilized if used on a more continual basis.

Thanks for the discussions, suggestions and patience.

Best, Jon

[Blades]

Have you ever considered the Glock 3.5 pound connector with a NY1 or NY2?

[JonInWA]

Have you ever considered the Glock 3.5 pound connector with a NY1 or NY2?

Blades, I've considered it-I ran my G34 that way, and was very pleased with it. However, on my (emphasis perhaps on the "my") G21, I'm just not sure the NY1 is a good solution; While for what it was I actually was fairly pleased with the NY2/dot connector, when I put in the NY1, I just didn't notice a significant decrease in triggerpull weight between the two; weird, I know. But I've been futzing along with Glocks long enough to know that this kind of thing can occur, due to minor parts tolerancing differences. FWIW, on my G21, I was actually more pleased with the NY2 than the NY1...but if I decide to revisit the NY2, I might well consider doing it with a minus connector.

Triggerpull weight-wise, with the dot connector and coil trigger spring I'm accomplishing a fairly comparative result, triggerpull weight-wise, between a minus connector and NY1. The primary benefit of the NY1 in my experience is the single-pull constant triggerpull, and a very crisp and discernable reset point.

My thought is that if I change out to a NY1, on my G21 it would probably be a good idea to concurrently switch out to a new trigger mechanism housing, and see if that induces a beneficial combination; however, based on my recent IDPA match last weekend, I'm currently satisfied with the current dot connector/coil spring, both in terms of pull characteristics and weight (sufficient for both carry/duty and competition). My trigger control technique currently is not really concentrating on the reset point; more so on the constant trigger roll and follow-through, so the NY1 is of limited value to me regarding that.

The only change I've done subsequent to the match is to paint the front sight face fluorescent orange (from the previous red) to slightly improve acquisition.

Best, Jon

[45dotACP]

As a guy who sold a Gen 3 G21, this decision makes me glad, because that's probably the gun I most regret selling. In fact, it's about the only Glock subtype I shoot worth a damn at all and I'm getting ready to get rid of my last Glock in the safe.

I ran all black Heine sights though. Damn I miss that gun.

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

[JonInWA]

Fortunately, I decided to be pretty objective and open-minded about things. After doing my due diligence beforehand (controlled live-fire exercise and analysis, grip analysis and modification, subsequent dry-fire protocol prior to the match), I'm glad things worked out, both performance-wise and for the keep of my G21. My friend waiting in the wings was a bit disappointed, though...

It's a great gun, and I don't find the Gen 3 "big butt" to be and ergonomic show-stopper. It does arguably require more intensive, and preferably continual use to obtain and maintain high proficiency with it due to its size and ergonomics, especially relative to other comparable pistols (including other smaller frame Glocks).

Best, Jon

[Blades]

Blades, I've considered it-I ran my G34 that way, and was very pleased with it. However, on my (emphasis perhaps on the "my") G21, I'm just not sure the NY1 is a good solution; While for what it was I actually was fairly pleased with the NY2/dot connector, when I put in the NY1, I just didn't notice a significant decrease in triggerpull weight between the two; weird, I know. But I've been futzing along with Glocks long enough to know that this kind of thing can occur, due to minor parts tolerancing differences. FWIW, on my G21, I was actually more pleased with the NY2 than the NY1...but if I decide to revisit the NY2, I might well consider doing it with a minus connector.

Triggerpull weight-wise, with the dot connector and coil trigger spring I'm accomplishing a fairly comparative result, triggerpull weight-wise, between a minus connector and NY1. The primary benefit of the NY1 in my experience is the single-pull constant triggerpull, and a very crisp and discernable reset point.

My thought is that if I change out to a NY1, on my G21 it would probably be a good idea to concurrently switch out to a new trigger mechanism housing, and see if that induces a beneficial combination; however, based on my recent IDPA match last weekend, I'm currently satisfied with the current dot connector/coil spring, both in terms of pull characteristics and weight (sufficient for both carry/duty and competition). My trigger control technique currently is not really concentrating on the reset point; more so on the constant trigger roll and follow-through, so the NY1 is of limited value to me regarding that.

The only change I've done subsequent to the match is to paint the front sight face fluorescent orange (from the previous red) to slightly improve acquisition.

Best, Jon

Makes sense and thank you Jon. I'm trying to concentrate on the reset point and ride it so the NY1 and NY2 with a 3.5# connector worked for me in my G29.

[JonInWA]

Makes sense and thank you Jon. I'm trying to concentrate on the reset point and ride it so the NY1 and NY2 with a 3.5# connector worked for me in my G29.

Completely understand. We've had some good discussions on utilizing the reset point here on p-f, here's a great thread initiated by GJM with Wayne Dobbs significantly contribution:
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4942-Glock-shooting-rolling-the-trigger&highlight=reset

I'm concentrating more on the trigger roll than on catching the reset at the earliest opportunity. In the back of my mind, I'm thinking that unduly concentrating on catching the reset could be a distraction/tactical Bad Idea, but I'm certainly open to discussion. I'm concentrating (or at least trying to) primarily on situational awareness, draw, presentment, sight acquisition (or rough gun placement awareness as opposed to precise sight acquisition and alignment), and trigger control/follow-through. Obviously my trigger finger has to move sufficiently forward in the process to effect reset, but I'm not overly concerned on capitalizing on it at the precise moment the reset point is reached.

Best, Jon

[Duelist]

As a guy who sold a Gen 3 G21, this decision makes me glad, because that's probably the gun I most regret selling. In fact, it's about the only Glock subtype I shoot worth a damn at all and I'm getting ready to get rid of my last Glock in the safe.

I ran all black Heine sights though. Damn I miss that gun.

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

I still see them for sale here and there. You could get another one.

[JonInWA]

The Gen 3 G21 SF is still an available product...But all things considered, if I had to get a new G21 today, I'd get a Gen4 one, because of the grip texture, mag release, and backstrap options. Best, Jon

[JonInWA]

Yesterday, I used my Gen4 G22 in an IDPA match; I did ok, but I actually performed better with the Gen 3 G21 last week. I'll take one or both for backup on my upcoming deer hunting trip in October. Best, Jon

[TNK]

Thank you for the information in this thread. Your posts are always thorough and helpful.

[JonInWA]

I shot the G21 in an IDPA match last weekend; while not out-and-out disasterous, and no DQs or any other egregious penalties incurred, my performance was sub-par, particularly compared to how I shot with my P320 X-Carry with a RDS the previous weekend.

I had a good daily dryfire program leading up to the match. Particularly exasperating was my inability to knock down a pair of steel plates some 20-30 yards out, with multiple futile shots expended in the effort.

The next stage, after I shot the stage, I reconfirmed zero. Zero was fine, but shooter had a tendency to shoot low-doubtlessly due to poor trigger control/too hasty shooting/poor sight picture/all of the above. Once I tightened things up, POA/POI zero confirmed, but my score was pretty much toarched by that point for the day.

Again, my G21 is a Gen 3, running with Warren/Sevigny Carry sights, a Waren Grip Asist Sleeve, a dot connector, and a coil trigger spring. Thinking dire thoughts, musing on various hardware solutions, I instead (at the advice of a friend and coach) went to a square range and practiced as the gun is.

Hmmm; amazingly enough, when I concentrate on trigger control and sight picture, the center of the target develops one ragged hole, repeatable at various distances. I also utilized the technique of placing my support hand's pinky finger on the front face of the magazine baseplate pad, immediately beneath the receiver frontstrap, which semed to provide more control, both in the vertical and horizontal recoil torque planes.

The Gibbs headslap comes from not live firing to confirm and refamiliarize before serious use, particularly after a protracted period of non-use on the platform. We have met the enemy and it is us.....I can probably get away with it with 9mm, but not with a .45 ACP or .40 platform.

While the fact is that I simply don't achieve the immediate natural index with my G21 that I do with my HK P30L and VP40, I can overcome that with practice-but it has to be a mix of dry- and live-fire. Lesson learned.

Best, Jon

No live animal were killed in the process of this response, nor were any discretionary dollars or futile efforts spent on chasing wil-'o-the wisp hardware solutions ...

[JonInWA]

Nice update-I just qualified with the G21. Not that the qualification course was unduly difficult, but what was interesting to me was that I actually qualified on it 1 point better than with my G19 (but I did 2 points better with my Gen4 G22-go figure....)(I wanted to qualify with all three Glocks for duty carry; the comparison was interesting as well).

The only recent hardware modification was add a Warren Grip Assist Sleeve, and, after some use, to cut down the fin on the sleeve by about 50% at the example and suggestion of an exceptionally highly qualified and proficient user of the Warren sleeve. The cut-down fin provided the same grip positioning effect, but with reduced protrusion and bulk, reducing drag on draw and making it slightly more comfortable. I'm running a similar cut-down Grip Assist on my Gen4 G22, and a segment of mountian bike innertube on my Gen 3 G17. My thought is that the sleeve could assist in both support hand positioning as well as with some recoil force management benefit. My Gen 3 G19 remains without any such grip enhancements.

https://i.imgur.com/3y05H2ih.jpg

Best, Jon

[JonInWA]

I just shot the Port Townsend GSSF match with the G21. My first return to GSSF after a hiatus in 2020 due to COVID-19. This time, in addition to my dry-fire practice regimen, I used the G21 in a club IDPA match two weeks previously. I didn't score too well in the IDPA match, but it was a great shake-down cruise, highlighting to me exactly what I needed to concentrate on (trigger control-specifically, not hammering on the trigger).

At the GSSF match, I exclusively shot the G21 in both divisions I competed in Guardian and Heavy Metal) and shot my best match with the G21 in years. My one bobble was on the plates where in 1 string of fire, I resorted to hammering on the trigger, with predictable results (2 plates left up...). I quickly corrected on the next string-problem eliminated, all plates decimated. Ammunition used was predominantly Sellier & Bellot 230 gr ball, with 1 box of Federal Champion Brass also used. The holster used was my Vega T.A.C.S Universal, which worked well in stably holding the G21 with the slide jacked back as required by GSSF if carrying the gun holstered during the match, and it worked nicely apres match holding my carry G19.

There's still considerable room for improvement; I had too many "D" hits (i.e., shooting slightly low) indicating that while my triggger control is getting better, it's still not quite there, and, obviously, my time-I need to refine triggger control, and then pick up the pace.

I'm interested in the forum's thoughts about letting the trigger go fully forward versus shooting from the reset point.

A I had a good match, made all the better by shooting it with a long-time friend-we had a nice drive to and from the match, and a good time at the match where I reconnected with some long-time GSSF shooting acquaintences. The match was well run, which was nice, as things flowed well with little back-up at each stage. Attendance seemed a little light, which is probably collateral damage from the COVID-19 ammunition shortage.

Best, Jon

[DDTSGM]

I'm interested in the forum's thoughts about letting the trigger go fully forward versus shooting from the reset point.

Best, Jon

Are you talking 'press-flip-press' or something like the 'aim-slack-squeeze' some folks adopt with the Glock Trigger when you say trigger fully forward?

I think there are several ways to look at it, if one has an open mind about it. I'm interested in hearing the views of others in this particular thread.

[JonInWA]

Are you talking 'press-flip-press' or something like the 'aim-slack-squeeze' some folks adopt with the Glock Trigger when you say trigger fully forward?

I think there are several ways to look at it, if one has an open mind about it. I'm interested in hearing the views of others in this particular thread.

For me, currently it's more along the lines of "Aim, slack, squeeze." For years I'd been a proponent of shooting off the reset point, "Squeeze, slight movemenet forward to click, pull" but whlle that works from a gaming standpoint, I just don't think it plays out well in actual tactical situations (I'm very interested to hear other comments on this), so I've reverted to "Squeeze, finger follow trigger fully forward, squeeze."

Glocks are great. But there's a huge difference in gun games and actual tactical use, and real-world threat management, and in my opinion the Glock trigger already is somewhat pushing the threat management envelope as it is. Currently I'm qualified on my G17, G19, G21 and G22 Glock-wise, so I tend to revert/prefer/defer to tactically relevant techniques (as opposed to more purely gamer techniques), and appropriately build up desirable muscle memories.

Shooting off the reset, involving less finger movement, might increase my follow-up /repetitive shot speeds, and somewhat decrease my tendency to shoot low, but it probably would be a bit of a crutch, where really what I need to continue to do is build up on my trigger control techniques and follow-up.

Again, as throughout this thread, all thoughts and constructive criticism welcome.

Best, Jon

[DDTSGM]

My thoughts are somewhat biased, I began as an officer and an instructor during the revolver era. Within five years LE agencies in my state were making the transition to the DA/SA pistols. We were influenced by the guys at the S&W Academy in those days and adopted that they were teaching for our auto-transition courses - release to reset and press - for transition and all subsequent shoots, maintaining contact with the trigger.

So after about 25 years of teaching that way I finally get off to Rogers Shooting School and spent the first half of my week there miserably trying to adopt his methodology. I wasn't on the back row, but I was way further back than my ego wanted me to be, so I switched back to reset and settled in about mid-group where my ego felt comfortable.

I was totally impressed by the course but realized that considering the limited time, staff, and rounds we had available for firearms training changing our program from release to reset-press to press-flip-press would have done more harm than good to our student officers. HCM said it best - we were training police officers, not gunfighters.

They are obviously many folks who shoot incredibly fast and incredibly accurately letting the trigger come full travel forward and then flipping back through for the next shot. Invariably these are folks who spend a lot of time in both live and dry fire and have developed to the point they are essentially immune to the effects of noise and recoil when they shoot. (Rogers told us the best way to learn his method was with a .22)

Just my observations.

[JCN]

My thoughts are somewhat biased, I began as an officer and an instructor during the revolver era. Within five years LE agencies in my state were making the transition to the DA/SA pistols. We were influenced by the guys at the S&W Academy in those days and adopted that they were teaching for our auto-transition courses - release to reset and press - for transition and all subsequent shoots, maintaining contact with the trigger.

So after about 25 years of teaching that way I finally get off to Rogers Shooting School and spent the first half of my week there miserably trying to adopt his methodology. I wasn't on the back row, but I was way further back than my ego wanted me to be, so I switched back to reset and settled in about mid-group where my ego felt comfortable.

I was totally impressed by the course but realized that considering the limited time, staff, and rounds we had available for firearms training changing our program from release to reset-press to press-flip-press would have done more harm than good to our student officers. HCM said it best - we were training police officers, not gunfighters.

They are obviously many folks who shoot incredibly fast and incredibly accurately letting the trigger come full travel forward and then flipping back through for the next shot. Invariably these are folks who spend a lot of time in both live and dry fire and have developed to the point they are essentially immune to the effects of noise and recoil when they shoot. (Rogers told us the best way to learn his method was with a .22)

Just my observations.

I think those are incredibly astute observations and the great thing you’re noticing is that there is a real, non-optimal limitation to classes en masse as opposed to individual coaching.

I think the full release trigger press and release is very trigger and gun action dependent.

I could and might do it on a SA gun like a 1911 where it’s a short pull and short release.

I don’t and wouldn’t do it on a DASA gun because you still have a lot of safety margin of reset without coming off the trigger.

Striker fire it would depend on the trigger / striker. Maybe I would with an aftermarket Glock but not with a stock P365.

With a DA revolver I probably would to prevent short stroking when capacity is already limited.

What is the more important commonality, IMO?

Giving enough reset margin motion with your trigger finger.

In all of those cases, I’m giving the same 7-10mm reset margin… regardless of the trigger mechanism.

So sometimes my finger is off (SAO) and sometimes it’s not (DASA).

IMO teaching the same reset trigger press for differing mechanisms of action is overly simplistic and not optimal.

Good on you for not taking it as gospel and interpreting it in your context.

JCS might appreciate this discussion so tagging him here.

[Kirk]

I haven't read each page so I apologize if I've missed this, but had a question related to GSSF. Are there any benefits to be gained from competing in GSSF indoor matches for someone who competes primarily in Steel Challenge? I have an indoor match pretty close to me that is very convenient, but wasn't sure if it is worth competing in. Primarily just curious if indoor GSSF develops or tests any skills that may be lacking in SCSA.

[DDTSGM]

I haven't read each page so I apologize if I've missed this, but had a question related to GSSF. Are there any benefits to be gained from competing in GSSF indoor matches for someone who competes primarily in Steel Challenge? I have an indoor match pretty close to me that is very convenient, but wasn't sure if it is worth competing in. Primarily just curious if indoor GSSF develops or tests any skills that may be lacking in SCSA.

GSSF indoor matches are shot on a single target per string, so no transitions. Emphasis is on precision with moderate time pressure, generally 10 rounds in 15 seconds. You could make it what you want.

You could also google 'GSSF Indoor Matches.'

[Kirk]

GSSF indoor matches are shot on a single target per string, so no transitions. Emphasis is on precision with moderate time pressure, generally 10 rounds in 15 seconds. You could make it what you want.

You could also google 'GSSF Indoor Matches.'

I appreciate the response! I was somewhat familiar with the format but most of the dudes I know who shoot GSSF exclusively shoot the outdoor matches. I was curious if anyone here had shot them much and found them to be decent matches since the local matches are super convenient for me and they seem to be a pretty quick match. If I do as well as I think I should be able to freestyle (I do a lot of accuracy work), it might be a fun match to shoot SHO to work those skills. Anyway, I think I'm going to give it a try

[Gio]

I just shot the Port Townsend GSSF match with the G21. My first return to GSSF after a hiatus in 2020 due to COVID-19. This time, in addition to my dry-fire practice regimen, I used the G21 in a club IDPA match two weeks previously. I didn't score too well in the IDPA match, but it was a great shake-down cruise, highlighting to me exactly what I needed to concentrate on (trigger control-specifically, not hammering on the trigger).

At the GSSF match, I exclusively shot the G21 in both divisions I competed in Guardian and Heavy Metal) and shot my best match with the G21 in years. My one bobble was on the plates where in 1 string of fire, I resorted to hammering on the trigger, with predictable results (2 plates left up...). I quickly corrected on the next string-problem eliminated, all plates decimated. Ammunition used was predominantly Sellier & Bellot 230 gr ball, with 1 box of Federal Champion Brass also used. The holster used was my Vega T.A.C.S Universal, which worked well in stably holding the G21 with the slide jacked back as required by GSSF if carrying the gun holstered during the match, and it worked nicely apres match holding my carry G19.

There's still considerable room for improvement; I had too many "D" hits (i.e., shooting slightly low) indicating that while my triggger control is getting better, it's still not quite there, and, obviously, my time-I need to refine triggger control, and then pick up the pace.

I'm interested in the forum's thoughts about letting the trigger go fully forward versus shooting from the reset point.

A I had a good match, made all the better by shooting it with a long-time friend-we had a nice drive to and from the match, and a good time at the match where I reconnected with some long-time GSSF shooting acquaintences. The match was well run, which was nice, as things flowed well with little back-up at each stage. Attendance seemed a little light, which is probably collateral damage from the COVID-19 ammunition shortage.

Best, Jon

Shooting from reset is a decent technique to maximize slow fire accuracy on a bullseye style course where time is not a factor. You definitely don't want to shoot from reset for any kind of time based scoring or action shooting. Whether you come all the way off the trigger or press-flip-press somewhere in the slack zone after trigger reset, either method works, and it may be gun dependent on how you accomplish it (i.e. how much slack does the trigger have, how short or long is the reset, how much spring tension does the trigger attempt to reset with, etc).

[professor]

I appreciate the response! I was somewhat familiar with the format but most of the dudes I know who shoot GSSF exclusively shoot the outdoor matches. I was curious if anyone here had shot them much and found them to be decent matches since the local matches are super convenient for me and they seem to be a pretty quick match. If I do as well as I think I should be able to freestyle (I do a lot of accuracy work), it might be a fun match to shoot SHO to work those skills. Anyway, I think I'm going to give it a try

I shoot both indoor and outdoor matches. A lot of both. While I prefer the outdoor match format, I like the indoor matches also. IE: I’ll skip an indoor match to attend an outdoor match.

I find both more of a measurement of my progress of the work I’m putting in more than practice by itself. Shoot the indoor matches and master a 500 on a qualified (25y) COF IN A MATCH itself and it is an accomplishment. If shooting 500s become boring, then try SHO, but I think you will find 500s with a true legal stock gun to be challenging enough. 250s with 25Xs are pretty sporty on the pocket COF also.


Prizes in both are great, although the indoor matches are random draw only.

These matches have been VERY good to me in both forcing me to hone my skills and prize winnings.

[Kirk]

I shoot both indoor and outdoor matches. A lot of both. While I prefer the outdoor match format, I like the indoor matches also. IE: I’ll skip an indoor match to attend an outdoor match.

I find both more of a measurement of my progress of the work I’m putting in more than practice by itself. Shoot the indoor matches and master a 500 on a qualified (25y) COF IN A MATCH itself and it is an accomplishment. If shooting 500s become boring, then try SHO, but I think you will find 500s with a true legal stock gun to be challenging enough. 250s with 25Xs are pretty sporty on the pocket COF also.


Prizes in both are great, although the indoor matches are random draw only.

These matches have been VERY good to me in both forcing me to hone my skills and prize winnings.

Excellent, thank you so much for the detailed reply! You've definitely sold me on giving this a shot. I've been looking at the rule book and the different courses of fire and now I really want to make the 500 club lol. I might have to pick up a G43 for the pocket COF as well. One of the main selling points seems to be the prizes, I'm always seeing dudes win really cool stuff from GSSF matches. I have an acquaintance who I believe has won multiple certificates for guns over the past few years (Outdoor matches). Anyway, I really appreciate the reply and I'm going to give it a go.

[professor]

Excellent, thank you so much for the detailed reply! You've definitely sold me on giving this a shot. I've been looking at the rule book and the different courses of fire and now I really want to make the 500 club lol. I might have to pick up a G43 for the pocket COF as well. One of the main selling points seems to be the prizes, I'm always seeing dudes win really cool stuff from GSSF matches. I have an acquaintance who I believe has won multiple certificates for guns over the past few years (Outdoor matches). Anyway, I really appreciate the reply and I'm going to give it a go.

The indoors being random may vary, but each 3 match series awards a pistol certificate. Usually some knives, hats, shirts or something as well. One range owner at a match I frequent throws in quite a few extras also.

The outdoor matches have both performance and random prizes. Both more quality and obtainable amounts than I have ever seen in other disciples. At my level anyhow.

[DDTSGM]

I appreciate the response! I was somewhat familiar with the format but most of the dudes I know who shoot GSSF exclusively shoot the outdoor matches. I was curious if anyone here had shot them much and found them to be decent matches since the local matches are super convenient for me and they seem to be a pretty quick match. If I do as well as I think I should be able to freestyle (I do a lot of accuracy work), it might be a fun match to shoot SHO to work those skills. Anyway, I think I'm going to give it a try

They are great if you have a hero wall at home or work.

Seriously, the local indoor matches I shoot are fun, good bunch of folks. If you get jammed up, our range will run you through the match before the day of the match if you cant be there for the match. My wife also shoots with me, so we enjoy the time.

My problem is vision and range lighting, I've shot numerous 250's with the 42, just one or two 500's with the full-sized - the lighting at 25 yards and my old guy vision don't work that well most of the time.

I think you'll have fun.

[JonInWA]

I had a great time shooting the Port Townsend match with a friend (its become a tradition for us). I shot my G19 in two divisions (subsequent to the GSSF match, I've installed a Leupold DeltaPoint Micro RDS on it for long-term T&E, covered in another thread) and the venerable G21 in the Heavy Metal division.

The only difference this year is that I removed the Warren Grip Assist sleeve and replaced it with a new Hogue HandAll Beavertail grip sleeve. While I initially found myself missing the fin on the Warrren, I shot better and eventually have come to prefer the Hogue for its overall feel and hot it facilitates my performance. It's a bit of a bear to wrestle on my Gen 3 "Big Butt" G21, but eminently do-able and worthwhile.

Comparing my G21 GSSF scores from last year to this year's, I shot this year significantly more accurately and faster (despite disastrous second string on the plates-the first string, and the remaining two were much better). The Hogue HandAll Beavertail is staying on.

Best, Jon

[JonInWA]

And here's an image with it mounted:

https://i.imgur.com/ZzfjrEkh.jpg

Best, Jon

[mizer67]

Despite detesting the Hogue Hand-All and similar grip sleeve products, I put on on my G48 and it's made a big difference in my shooting with that particular slim frame gun.

It's ugly (and apparently a potential risk in a grapple) but it's hard to argue with the performance gain.