FBI load and 3” barrels

[Jared]

So, there’s plants of info out there that the old 158 gr LSWC-HP doesn’t expand all that well from 2” barrels. The same sources usually indicate it does pretty good from a 4” barrel. I’m wondering how it works from a 3” barrel. Is expansion more consistent with adequate penetration compared to a 2” barrel?

[camsdaddy]

I am interested to read the replies. I know the 3" model 13 was an issued gun for the fbi so I wonder well the two worked together.

[RevolverRob]

They do fine, for the most part.

Consistent penetration of 12-15" in organic gel, expansion to somewhere around .5-.6.

The bad news - they tend to suck hard at four-layer denim tests usually failing to expand and penetration 18-20+ inches. They also suck hard through laminated glass.

If barrier penetration and/or heavy clothing is a reality for you, choose a different round.

I have several boxes of the Remington 158-grain +P LHP left over from my Texas days (where heavy clothing is not a reality) and I'll likely have several for the rest of my life. These days I opt for the Gold Dot Short Barrel (135-grain) or Winchester Ranger (130-grain). Do note - Remington is the only LHP that consistently expands. Winchester and Federal load a harder lead bullet and it almost never expands.

[DocGKR]

The above is on target, so to speak...

[jtcarm]

I saw the Buffalo Bore rendition tested at the 2018 Revolver Roundup. I’m pretty sure from a 2”.

It expanded impressively after 4 layers of denim. Penetration as around 16”, I think.

[valian]

The 38 load will also lose more velocity from a 357 chambered gun. In some of my 357 3 inch guns the Rem. Lhp is only doing 800 fps, about the same as from a 2 inch 38 and will have the same problem with expansion as it does from the 2 inch guns.

[willie]

The 38 load will also lose more velocity from a 357 chambered gun. In some of my 357 3 inch guns the Rem. Lhp is only doing 800 fps, about the same as from a 2 inch 38 and will have the same problem with expansion as it does from the 2 inch guns.

I do not doubt your results but question the validity of generalizing to all other revolvers that are the same as yours.
I say this because velocities of the same load fired in the revolvers of the same model and barrel length will vary significantly. Research demonstrates these differences. Variables causing these differences include internal chamber dimensions and bore diameter. A most significant variable is gap between barrel and cylinder.

Please be aware that I am not saying your observations are incorrect. You are experimenting and reporting. From these efforts we learn, Thank you.

[Wayne Dobbs]

I do not doubt your results but question the validity of generalizing to all other revolvers that are the same as yours.
I say this because velocities of the same load fired in the revolvers of the same model and barrel length will vary significantly. Research demonstrates these differences. Variables causing these differences include internal chamber dimensions and bore diameter. A most significant variable is gap between barrel and cylinder.

Please be aware that I am not saying your observations are incorrect. You are experimenting and reporting. From these efforts we learn, Thank you.

I recall that years ago, LAPD did a fairly extensive chronograph study of .38 Special loads fired in a variety of .357 Magnum and .38 Special revolvers. They found that velocities were higher in the .38 chambered revolvers than in .357 ones. Apparently that 1/10" longer charge hole dimension for the .357 case allowed some gas leakage and lower velocities. It would be interesting for somebody to do this kind of testing again. willie's point about velocity variation across different revolvers and loads is correct. LAPD was simply able to demonstrate the trend, showing a velocity advantage of .38 in a .38 of about 70 fps (IIRC).

[valian]

I do not doubt your results but question the validity of generalizing to all other revolvers that are the same as yours.
I say this because velocities of the same load fired in the revolvers of the same model and barrel length will vary significantly. Research demonstrates these differences. Variables causing these differences include internal chamber dimensions and bore diameter. A most significant variable is gap between barrel and cylinder.

Please be aware that I am not saying your observations are incorrect. You are experimenting and reporting. From these efforts we learn, Thank you.

What Wayne said.
In our days it was a well known phenomenon that velocity is lost when 38s are fired in 357 chambers. That's the only generalization I made and I'm well aware of all the other variables you mentioned. My point is that when you get down to 3 inch bbls. with 38 loads any and all of those variables can easily affect velocities potentially bringing them below what is required for robust performance of the bullets. That's why I pointed out that SOME of my 357 3 inch revolvers only get 800 fps with the Rem LHP load.
It's best to chronograph your potential carry loads in each 3 inch revolver using 38 hp because velocities are so close to marginal from those guns, and compare to known velocity thresholds for the particular bullets.

[willie]

All are valid points. Thank you for the clarification.

[CTX44]

Other options maybe worth considering.

The Buffalo Bore 158 loads use pretty much the softest bullets you can get. I have tested them through 4 layer denim and 3" guns and about 75% of the time they expanded to between .57-.60 and go 14-15" in clear ballistics gel. About 25% of the time they only expand a tiny bit and penetrate 19-20" in clear ballistics gel.

In bare gel from a 3" they penetrate 12-13" and expand consistently to .67-.69, just shy of .70. They are huge.

Even in 1 7/8 guns you tend to get some expansion through denim with the BB 158 standard pressure loads. It varies way more though, it's hard to give an average because the variability is so great (through denim)... almost a completely even distribution from barely any expansion through a tiny bit (.40) to a tiny bit more (.45) to .50 to about .56-.58 and finally to .65. Penetration in the 16-18" range for all except the fully expanded ones, which consistently go 12" (in clear ballistics).

In bare gel from a 1 7/8 gun they basically get to .65 avg diameter and 12" pen.

Again this is the BB standard pressure stuff. The BB 158 +P stuff is an entirely different story. It's a very violent bullet that from a 3" expands to around .70 and drives to around the 16-17" mark. At which point it either stops or occasionally blows its petals off and the base goes to around 20". From what I can tell it's the same bullet they use in the standard pressure stuff.

I have also found the BB to be more forgiving of smaller cylinder throats and thread choke than other 158's, in terms of accuracy, I think because they are so soft. Downside is they are muy expensive.

[03RN]

https://rimrockbullets.com/xcart/g-ch-38-357-158-gr-swc-hp-per-100-in-a-plastic-ammo-box.html?category_id=15#product-details-tab-description

Rimrock makes the bullets for Buffalo Bore. I haven't tried these yet but have been tempted to try a box since I order from them every couple months anyways.

[OMWAG]

AmmoQuest did extensive gel testing of 9mm JHP out of 3” barrel using the FBI protocol. The series of videos ends with a wrap up in which Federal HST 147 gr is up against Winchester Defend. Amazingly the Winchester wins with the best expansion to penetration performance. It consistently expanded and penetrated to just over 15”. It an be teamed up with its counterpart FMJ training ammo, which has the same weight and load as the JHP. I tried both and randomly loading the magazine with each I could not tell which one I had fired. I used to carry HST in my subcompact but after a couple hundred rounds of Train and Defend I have switched over. FYI as I recall the Winchester JHP round that is on the FBI approved list is the same ad the Defend round but width the different name. There is a video of the wrap up test here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xc5n_JsY3aw&app=desktop

[Zeke38]

Been purchasing the Rimrock slugs from Rimrock for the past 10 or so years. Carry the Buffalo Bore load for street carry. Identical as to shape, weight and hardness. I find that using Power Pistol in a +P loading makes the bullet very accurate in a 2" K6. Bullet in handload doing just over 900fps in the K6.

[Speederlander]

I find the BB 158 +p to be as or more painful to shoot out of a small revolver as a good number of 357 options.