Mass shooting in Ohio

[BaiHu]

Now it's just getting weird.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/08/04/us/dayton-ohio-active-shooter/index.html


Nine people are dead after a shooting in Dayton, Ohio, according to police. Dayton Police say the suspect also is dead. Sixteen additional people were injured in the incident that took place within 13 hours of a shooting that left 20 dead in El Paso, Texas.

The Dayton shooting took place around 1 a.m. outside on East 5th Street in the city's Oregon district, a popular downtown area, Dayton Deputy Director and Assistant Chief of the Police Lt. Col. Matt Carper told reporters early Sunday morning.

The suspect, who was shot and killed by responding officers, has not yet been identified, but Carper said the subject fired a "long gun" with multiple rounds. The shooting happened as the suspect was making his way toward a bar called Ned Peppers, Montgomery County Emergency Services spokeswoman Deb Decker said.

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[BaiHu]

The last 2 shootings remind me of Malcom Gladwell's position on the threshold of violence. The slow motion acceleration of a mob that is influenced by others actions despite having no prior relationship.

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[HCountyGuy]

4 mass-casualty incidents within two weeks. Something’s off here...

[Hambo]

Something’s off here...

Yes, the people committing them.

[blues]

I think Lon works for the P.D. in Dayton. Hopefully we'll hear from him at some point, and more importantly I hope he and his are all safe and accounted for.

[ralph]

Yes, the people committing them.

And guess which group of people is going to be made the scapegoat..

[Borderland]

And guess which group of people is going to be made the scapegoat..

I see some legislation getting thru congress and Trump signing it. Anyone care to guess what it will be?

[Duke]

I see some legislation getting thru congress and Trump signing it. Anyone care to guess what it will be?

What will we try to outlaw this time, murder?

[Zincwarrior]

What will we try to outlaw this time, murder?

Rifles with magazines.

[CCT125US]

I have a number of clients in that area. Prayers go out to Dayton, they have been dealing with an opioid epidemic, tornadoes, and now this.

[perlslacker]

I'm gonna keep my mouth shut, other than:


The last 2 shootings remind me of Malcom Gladwell's position on the threshold of violence. The slow motion acceleration of a mob that is influenced by others actions despite having no prior relationship.

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This article is pretty good if you want to read more about this thing BaiHu is talking about: https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2017/11/americas-mass-shooting-epidemic-contagious/545078/

I'll also head off this quote at the pass, since it's gonna rustle some jimmies:


There are more gun deaths in America because, simply, there are more guns.

Yes, we all know that dipshits will hijack trucks or use Molotov cocktails in mass killings if we ban guns. This final paragraph is tangential to the main point of the article. Please do not spend 5 pages circlejerking about how gun control is bad on a gun forum where we all like guns and hate gun control.

[blues]

I'm gonna keep my mouth shut, other than:



This article is pretty good if you want to read more about this thing BaiHu is talking about: https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2017/11/americas-mass-shooting-epidemic-contagious/545078/

In a similar vein, I'm reminded of how prescient the black comedy "Little Murders" (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0067350/) (1971, based on the play by Jules Feiffer) is / was...in the same fashion that Orwell, Huxley, Vonnegut and others predicted a dystopian future.

[ralph]

I'm gonna keep my mouth shut, other than:



This article is pretty good if you want to read more about this thing BaiHu is talking about: https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2017/11/americas-mass-shooting-epidemic-contagious/545078/

I'll also head off this quote at the pass, since it's gonna rustle some jimmies:



Yes, we all know that dipshits will hijack trucks or use Molotov cocktails in mass killings if we ban guns. This final paragraph is tangential to the main point of the article. Please do not spend 5 pages circlejerking about how gun control is bad on a gun forum where we all like guns and hate gun control.

I read the article, the fact that they use data from mother jones supposed "studies"on the subject, tells me it's skewed right there..Looking at the goverment to do anything meaningful is a waste of time..The goverment, like electrical current, is going to take the path of least resistance..This means feel-good bans that do nothing to address the problem, but are easy to do, and look like they're doing "something" especially at election time.
All one has to do is look at the U.K., they banned handguns, and got increased handgun violence, they banned knives to the point one can't but a kitchen knife with a point on it, and got a "knife problem" which just proves my point, it's easier to ban something,rather than do the hard work of trying to find out why these things happen, and come up with a plan to stop it..

[Duke]

Found on another forum and unverified personally - but interesting if accurate.


With the frequency of events occurring at all too convenient times this theory continues to make more sense.

Its become bad enough that there is a predictable pattern.

If a shooting happens and the body count isn't as high as it could have been there will be a more deadly one not long after

Clacamas town center (stopped in part by a concealed carrier) sandy hook was the next day

Gilroy Garlic festival only 4 dead week later El Paso and Dayton

All 3 times we were on the verge of rolling back the NFA there was a mass shooting the same week.

Congressional baseball practice HPA was up for committee vote that day.

Vegas SHARE act was on the dockett

Virginia beach SCOTUS was supposed to take up a case aimed at the NFA itself.

2 days after it became obvious that the fake bombs CNN Soros and other democrats received was a self inflicted stunt the Pittsburgh Synagogue was shot up.

There was a school shooting the same week as the I-594 ballot initiative in Washington

Myself and several others predicted that there would be a high profile shooting after Epstein got busted and the Mueller testimony didn't go well and it happened.

[Lon]

I think Lon works for the P.D. in Dayton. Hopefully we'll hear from him at some point, and more importantly I hope he and his are all safe and accounted for.

I work for a PD about 15 minutes from Dayton. Some of our guys responded mutual aid last night to Dayton. Dayton PD was Johnny on the spot and engaged the shooter with in about a minute of hearing the gunfire. I know a bunch of guys from Dayton and we have worked with their swat team before. They have some squared away guys. I am not surprised at all how quick they responded. The night shift platoon that I supervised Before going to dayshift was on duty last night. They ended up covering calls for Dayton PD while Dayton handled the active shooter. All our guys and I believe Dayton PD guys are good to go. I have not heard of any officers that were injured.

If and when I can post more I will. It’s a small world. The shooter lived about 150 yards from my old house in Bellbrook. I tried to buy the house right across the street from where the shooter lives when we moved, but the deal fell through.

[blues]

^^^^I think it's too broad an interpretation and allows too much latitude in regard to what might be added to the list of predicate events.

[blues]

I work for a PD about 15 minutes from Dayton. Some of our guys responded mutual aid last night to Dayton. Dayton PD was Johnny on the spot and engaged the shooter with in about a minute of hearing the gunfire. I know a bunch of guys from Dayton and we have worked with their swat team before. They have some squared away guys. I am not surprised at all how quick they responded. The night shift platoon that I supervised Before going to dayshift was on duty last night. They ended up covering calls for Dayton PD while Dayton handled the active shooter. All our guys and I believe Dayton PD guys are good to go. I have not heard of any officers that were injured.

If and when I can post more I will. It’s a small world. The shooter lived about 150 yards from my old house in Bellbrook. I tried to buy the house right across the street from where the shooter lives when we moved, but the deal fell through.

Thanks for checking in, Lon, and for fleshing some of that out for us. Glad to hear you're all okay.

[Lon]

Thanks for checking in, Lon, and for fleshing some of that out for us. Glad to hear you're all okay.

I was actually woken up this morning via text message from One of my fellow sergeants. He one of our retired captains and some other law enforcement command staff friends from other agencies left that area about 45 minutes before the shooting took place.

[perlslacker]

I read the article, the fact that they use data from mother jones supposed "studies"on the subject, tells me it's skewed right there..Looking at the goverment to do anything meaningful is a waste of time..The goverment, like electrical current, is going to take the path of least resistance..This means feel-good bans that do nothing to address the problem, but are easy to do, and look like they're doing "something" especially at election time.
All one has to do is look at the U.K., they banned handguns, and got increased handgun violence, they banned knives to the point one can't but a kitchen knife with a point on it, and got a "knife problem" which just proves my point, it's easier to ban something,rather than do the hard work of trying to find out why these things happen, and come up with a plan to stop it..

The MoJo study was juxtaposed with a conflicting study to highlight differences in methodologies. You completely missed the point of the reference.

I knew that a nuanced reading was too much to ask for from an Internet forum, but I tried anyways because I'm a relentless optimist.

[Hambo]

Found on another forum and unverified personally - but interesting if accurate.

There is at least a theory that one shooting spawns another. The rest of that is tinfoil hat bullshit.

[willie]

The shootings occur because of the extent of madness. Swirling within the madness are the warped. Of this subset it is the rage filled individuals stepping forward to kill. Real time news with video seems to set off some of these people. They become copycats. RAGE. That's the word.

[Borderland]

I read the article, the fact that they use data from mother jones supposed "studies"on the subject, tells me it's skewed right there..Looking at the goverment to do anything meaningful is a waste of time..The goverment, like electrical current, is going to take the path of least resistance..This means feel-good bans that do nothing to address the problem, but are easy to do, and look like they're doing "something" especially at election time.
All one has to do is look at the U.K., they banned handguns, and got increased handgun violence, they banned knives to the point one can't but a kitchen knife with a point on it, and got a "knife problem" which just proves my point, it's easier to ban something,rather than do the hard work of trying to find out why these things happen, and come up with a plan to stop it..

Most countries ban firearms or heavily restrict them. If it's a new thing like it was in the UK a few years ago the next step is to get the firearms out of the general population. Lots of people turned in their firearms or sold them at auction before the restrictions went into effect. This happened around 1990. Lots of very expensive SXS shotguns showed up here in the US. I knew a Brit who was an importer here in the US. Most of these shotguns were family heirlooms that they could no longer keep at home.

Getting the semi-auto rifles out of the general population won't work here in the US. There's just too many of them. So any restrictions will be feel good only and will have zero effect on the number of mass shootings.

I have this discussion with proponents of more restrictions frequently but it's like swimming upstream against a very strong current. They want to restrict firearms. I say if you want to restrict anything it should be people. And then I ask them if they would be willing to pass a rigorous FBI background check to purchase a new car. Generally they don't make the connection.

[perlslacker]

Also


Yes, we all know that dipshits will hijack trucks or use Molotov cocktails in mass killings if we ban guns. This final paragraph is tangential to the main point of the article. Please do not spend 5 pages circlejerking about how gun control is bad on a gun forum where we all like guns and hate gun control.

5 minutes later:


I read the article, the fact that they use data from mother jones supposed "studies"on the subject, tells me it's skewed right there..Looking at the goverment to do anything meaningful is a waste of time..The goverment, like electrical current, is going to take the path of least resistance..This means feel-good bans that do nothing to address the problem, but are easy to do, and look like they're doing "something" especially at election time.
All one has to do is look at the U.K., they banned handguns, and got increased handgun violence, they banned knives to the point one can't but a kitchen knife with a point on it, and got a "knife problem" which just proves my point, it's easier to ban something,rather than do the hard work of trying to find out why these things happen, and come up with a plan to stop it..


Most countries ban firearms or heavily restrict them. If it's a new thing like it was in the UK a few years ago the next step is to get the firearms out of the general population. Lots of people turned in their firearms or sold them at auction before the restrictions went into effect. This happened around 1990. Lots of very expensive SXS shotguns showed up here in the US. I knew a Brit who was an importer here in the US. Most of these shotguns were family heirlooms that they could no longer keep at home.

Getting the semi-auto rifles out of the general population won't work here in the US. There's just too many of them. So any restrictions will be feel good only and will have zero effect on the number of mass shootings.

I have this discussion with proponents of more restrictions frequently but it's like swimming upstream against a very strong current. They want to restrict firearms. I say if you want to restrict anything it should be people. And then I ask them if they would be willing to pass a rigorous FBI background check to purchase a new car. Generally they don't make the connection.

LOL

[Duke]

There is at least a theory that one shooting spawns another. The rest of that is tinfoil hat bullshit.

Good insight.

[Sauer Koch]

It's very easy to believe that the problem is there are simply WAY more of these worthless fucking snowflakes out there, who were never told "no" as a kid, that have no respect for authority of any kind, and think they can do whatever they want. The media obviously drools over this shit, and that's what makes the next psycho feel that he can do it better by killing more people than the last freak did. What a fucked up world we live in...

[ralph]

[QUOTE=perlslacker;911933]The MoJo study was juxtaposed with a conflicting study to highlight differences in methodologies. You completely missed the point of the reference.

I knew that a nuanced reading was too much to ask for from an Internet forum, but I tried anyways because I'm a relentless


If you have some meaningful ideas let's hear them, instead of using this thread as an opportunity to amuse yourself.

[StraitR]

I see some legislation getting thru congress and Trump signing it. Anyone care to guess what it will be?

If he does, he can kiss Trump 2020 goodbye, and I'm sure he knows this. Trump is a lot of things, but a dummy he is not. My hunch is we'll watch him walk the line, making comments that appeal one side, and then the other, with nothing coming of it.

I do think we'll see another post-shooting, emotion based strong push coming from the left. That's not hard to predict.

ETA: Bravo Zulu to Dayton PD.

[blues]

If the theory holds that one event spawns another, (and I have no specific info pro or con), all I can say is that NYPD better be on alert for more than buckets of water in coming days.

And for this I directly blame de Blasio and the weak kneed politicians and social justice warriors who have allowed the inmates to run the asylum.

[ralph]

If the theory holds that one event spawns another, (and I have no specific info pro or con), all I can say is that NYPD better be on alert for more than buckets of water in coming days.

And for this I directly blame de Blasio and the weak kneed politicians and social justice warriors who have allowed the inmates to run the asylum.

You're right..

[Glenn E. Meyer]

The criminologists and psychologist have been saying that there is a contagion effect. It is supported by seeing how many of these killers study mass shooters and are fanatic fans of Columbine, the Norway guy, etc.

They fantasize that they will get the PR similary to that of the previous shooters and the praise of those who hold similar racist or crazy beliefs. They want they suffering and seeing the victims and their families suffer, lets them postulate the same from their victims. Called vicarious reinforcement.

[blues]

Problem is, at some point probably soon, it's going to stop being water in the buckets..

Isn't that what I'm saying?

[ralph]

Isn't that what I'm saying?

Sorry I was editing my post when you quoted that..

[ralph]

The criminologists and psychologist have been saying that there is a contagion effect. It is supported by seeing how many of these killers study mass shooters and are fanatic fans of Columbine, the Norway guy, etc.

They fantasize that they will get the PR similary to that of the previous shooters and the praise of those who hold similar racist or crazy beliefs. They want they suffering and seeing the victims and their families suffer, lets them postulate the same from their victims. Called vicarious reinforcement.

What can be done to stop this? Stop media coverage? Not trying to be argumentive, but honestly wondering how this effect can be shut down. Yor second paragraph seems to suggest that a immediate media blackout might short circuit this effect..

[Borderland]

Also



5 minutes later:





LOL

I'm sorry. I've always had a problem following instructions. Now, what was it that we weren't supposed to do, again?

[perlslacker]

I'm sorry. I've always had a problem following instructions. Now, what was it that we weren't supposed to do, again?

Preach to the choir about how gun control is bad. We’re on pistol-forum. It’s superfluous.

This is useful discussion:


What can be done to stop this? Stop media coverage? Not trying to be argumentive, but honestly wondering how this effect can be shut down. Yor second paragraph seems to suggest that a immediate media blackout might short circuit this effect..

[BaiHu]

The sister of the suspect in the deadly shooting rampage in Dayton, Ohio, was among the nine killed during the early-morning incident, officials revealed Sunday. Dayton Deputy Director and Assistant Chief of Police Lt. Col. Matt Carper identified the gunman as 24-year-old Conner Betts. His sister, Megan Betts, was among the nine killed, according to Carper. This is developing story.
Fox News

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[blues]

Fox News

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I saw mention of that a little while ago. Now it will be interesting to see if others in her party, (if she was in a group), were specifically targeted or if the other victims were shot at random. Doesn't seem likely that she'd be an incidental victim.

ETA: Before any "no shit, Sherlock" comments...even when something appears obvious, you still need to investigate and rule out other possible conclusions based upon the evidence...not supposition.

[ralph]

Fox News

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That is very interesting..

[Totem Polar]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cr3jdcOUMAQJRIN.jpg

Too soon?

;)

[Borderland]

deleted DP

[Clark Jackson]

Cross posted in Book Recommendations (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?1314-Book-Recommendations) and Active Shooter at El Paso Walmart (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?37842-Active-Shooter-at-El-Paso-Walmart) threads.

*****

Click here (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?37842-Active-Shooter-at-El-Paso-Walmart&p=912025&viewfull=1#post912025) for a recommendation on a reading resource (Pat Mac's "Sentinel (https://www.amazon.com/Sentinel-Become-Charge-Protection-Detail/dp/1475960492/ref=asc_df_1475960492/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=312038987516&hvpos=1o1&hvnetw=g&hvrand=14154937934783993982&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9010792&hvtargid=pla-437041950623&psc=1)" book) that might just save a life... especially for someone who is not an enthusiastic student of self-defense.

[BehindBlueI's]

The criminologists and psychologist have been saying that there is a contagion effect. It is supported by seeing how many of these killers study mass shooters and are fanatic fans of Columbine, the Norway guy, etc.

They fantasize that they will get the PR similary to that of the previous shooters and the praise of those who hold similar racist or crazy beliefs. They want they suffering and seeing the victims and their families suffer, lets them postulate the same from their victims. Called vicarious reinforcement.

I've been preaching this for years. Female celebrities "leak" sex tapes. Loser nobody males go on mass killing rampages. It's the golden ticket to the media spotlight, to suddenly having untold people interested in you and your beliefs, and lasting fame among the circle jerk of people they consider heroes.

The media and politicians are complicit in this. Every time you bother to learn their name, so are you. Every time you click on a news article about it, you are reinforcing that there's money to be made in the reveling in the minutiae of these events.

The news should be something like "an anonymous coward was killed by police after engaging in mass murder. Nobody gives a fuck why he did it, we're just glad he's dead. Reports suggest he had a small dick, and couldn't get laid in a whorehouse if his boots were stuffed with hundreds, and was a chronic bed-wetter." What it's going to be is press for whatever his fucked up agenda was, political hot-potatoing of trying to tie him to "the other guy", whoever that is for you, and a shit ton of media attention.

[43Under]

When was the last time a famous person was murdered? Or an attempt at a murder? I mean by a total stranger. It seems like, when I was a kid, that's how losers of this magnitude attained notoriety. John Lennon, Reagan, JFK (if you don't subscribe to conspiracy theories). I am sure there are others I'm not thinking of now. Seems like doing a mass murder is easier than trying to find some celebrity to kill.

[Beendare]

I think there is something to this "Piling on" theory to the extent that one shooting emboldens others.

Lets not forget the fact that all of these folks have one thing in common and it ain't guns; They are certifiable, loonie tunes crazy.

1) This Dayton guy puts on a mask and body armor and shot his sister

2) Not a lot known about the El Paso dude but some kind of Satanist I think. It will come out....he was nuts.

The problem as I see it is shutting these crazies down before it happens. Seems to me most all of them post craziness in social media....but the "You are infringing on his civil rights" crowd will go catatonic.

I dunno ......and don't propose to have the solution...its a fine line.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I would suggest that the victim interviews and family interviews be toned down quite a bit. The suffering portrayed reinforces the fantasy of the next one. While, normal human beings can be move to tears, the monster to be is 'turned on' by it. Also, the large memorials and services should be private and not televised. They also reinforce the next shooter's fantasy.

One might say that such is against the 1st Amend. One might say that it is an attempt to minimize the tragedy in order to protect politicians whose rhetoric might have contributed to egging on a shooter.

That's not what I am looking at. I am looking at what turns on the next shooter. It is a problem of a free press society vs. contributing to the next problem. It's a lost cause anyway because social media will present the info and sites that cater to such monsters will continue without massive censorship.

[HCM]

I think there is something to this "Piling on" theory to the extent that one shooting emboldens others.

Lets not forget the fact that all of these folks have one thing in common and it ain't guns; They are certifiable, loonie tunes crazy.

1) This Dayton guy puts on a mask and body armor and shot his sister

2) Not a lot known about the El Paso dude but some kind of Satanist I think. It will come out....he was nuts.

The problem as I see it is shutting these crazies down before it happens. Seems to me most all of them post craziness in social media....but the "You are infringing on his civil rights" crowd will go catatonic.

I dunno ......and don't propose to have the solution...its a fine line.

Absolutely not.

I can’t speak to the Dayton shooter but there is no indication the El Paso shooter is mentally ill by any clinical definition. Like the Sutherland springs shooter and the NZ shooter, he was calm, calculating and efficient. That is simply Evil. Evil exists.

Are some mass shooters mentally ill ? Sure but trying to rationalize all mass shooters away as mentally ill is at best, willful ignorance.

There is a lot of false / troll info floating around about the El Paso shooter- don’t believe everything you read on the internet.

[Lon]

I would suggest that the victim interviews and family interviews be toned down quite a bit. The suffering portrayed reinforces the fantasy of the next one. While, normal human beings can be move to tears, the monster to be is 'turned on' by it. Also, the large memorials and services should be private and not televised. They also reinforce the next shooter's fantasy.


I was headed downtown (Bellbrook where both I and the shooter live) and decided to drive over by my old house to see how many vultures from the press were there by the shooters house. The street he lived on was closed off. Along the street leading to his street (which is a dead end) there press cars along both sides of the street. Maybe 20+ total. Some were up in people’s yards. That woulda lasted about 2 seconds if it was my yard.

[blues]

I was headed downtown (Bellbrook where both I and the shooter live) and decided to drive over by my old house to see how many vultures from the press were there by the shooters house. The street he lived on was closed off. Along the street leading to his street (which is a dead end) there press cars along both sides of the street. Maybe 20+ total. Some were up in people’s yards. That woulda lasted about 2 seconds if it was my yard.

It was interesting that CNN earlier showed video (from a distance) capturing the stampede outside the venue as the murderer fired upon the individuals.

However, they wouldn't show (the low res, and not at all graphic) video wherein the shooter was put down by police.

Once again CNN drops the ball and instead of allowing people to make a choice about whether to view or not, they decide what you can or cannot see. (It's available elsewhere on the web and is unremarkable footage.)

[HCM]

I would suggest that the victim interviews and family interviews be toned down quite a bit. The suffering portrayed reinforces the fantasy of the next one. While, normal human beings can be move to tears, the monster to be is 'turned on' by it. Also, the large memorials and services should be private and not televised. They also reinforce the next shooter's fantasy.

One might say that such is against the 1st Amend. One might say that it is an attempt to minimize the tragedy in order to protect politicians whose rhetoric might have contributed to egging on a shooter.

That's not what I am looking at. I am looking at what turns on the next shooter. It is a problem of a free press society vs. contributing to the next problem. It's a lost cause anyway because social media will present the info and sites that cater to such monsters will continue without massive censorship.

Another issue with the friends and family issues is the increase in trolling culture. There have been instance of people giving troll/false media interviews. Apparently at least one of the subjects who provided a phone interview to the media after the shooting claiming to be a survivor or the family member of a survivor, the one who claimed the shooter yelled “Gamers rise up” was actually a troll andmade up the whole thing.

[Lon]

Video of shooter being taken out by DPD. Well done, gentlemen. 5 Officers w 3 years on and a Sgt were the initial responding officers.
https://www.whio.com/news/local/dayton-shooting-who-are-the-officers-involved-oregon-district-mass-shooting/N7a8TFWvHXBVB7tdjS7xlN/

And since this is a pistol forum, DPD runs Glock .45ACPs last time I checked.

[perlslacker]

Absolutely not.

I can’t speak to the Dayton shooter but there is no indication the El Paso shooter is mentally ill by any clinical definition. Like the Sutherland springs shooter and the NZ shooter, he was calm, calculating and efficient. That is simply Evil. Evil exists.

Are some mass shooters mentally ill ? Sure but trying to rationalize all mass shooters away as mentally ill is at best, willful ignorance.

There is a lot of false / troll info floating around about the El Paso shooter- don’t believe everything you read on the internet.

Mental illness takes many forms. A run through the list of history's most prolific serial killers will yield a list of profoundly ill people who were capable of hatching and executing very clever plans. I don't think mass shooters are any different.

[Borderland]

One might say that it is an attempt to minimize the tragedy in order to protect politicians whose rhetoric might have contributed to egging on a shooter.


The dem candidates are all over this. This might get some attention in congress now. I wouldn't want to be the GOP politician to vote against any gun control bills coming up. It will certainly be used against you if you run for reelection. Even an A rating by the NRA might not be such a good thing anymore.

[mmc45414]

I am local, but have been out of town, but this sure doesn't look random. Fuckhead was (I think) at the bar, left and came back and killed his sister and her boyfriend.

ETA: I have no knowledge of the events, but am probably too familiar with the area from frequenting it over the last forty years. It is not quite Bourbon Street, but within about 350 yards there are 10-15 bars and restaurants. At that time of night on a nice night like last night, the street would have also been very crowded. So out of at least two thousand people to shoot, two of the people are his sister and her boyfriend, I don't think it would be bold speculation that this is not a random act.

[Gray01]

at least this hour.

At this rate...by the time I post it might be OBE...


https://breaking911.com/tragedy-averted-feds-say-they-have-thwarted-a-mass-shooting-plot-in-lubbock-texas/

[HCM]

While there is no official word on the motive for the Dayton shooting, there is now clear evidence the Dayton Shooter was a left wing extremist. The shooter acting less than 24 hours after the right wing extremist in El Paso, TX is.... interesting.

https://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2019/aug/4/connor-betts-ohio-gunman-was-elizabeth-warren-supp/?fbclid=IwAR1PK2EWJmAG4ehrNcSEFKnSdNv6RJY2aV9kg3na xbjVbaWX-ZDNCT8eYNg

Ohio gunman described himself as pro-Satan 'leftist' who supported Elizabeth Warren


The Ohio gunman described himself on social media as a pro-Satan “leftist” who wanted Joe Biden’s generation to die off, hated President Trump and law enforcement, and hoped to vote for Sen. Elizabeth Warren for president.


“I want socialism, and i’ll not wait for the idiots to finally come round to understanding,” he wrote in one tweet, according to Heavy.com.

The breaking-news outlet said it had found Betts‘ Twitter page (handle @iamthespookster) and verified that the account belonged to the gunman “through multiple verification factors, including a matching tattoo on both a page selfie and prominent news outlets’ pictures of Connor Betts; several family linkages to the page; similar photos, including of him and the family dog, on the page and family members’ verified accounts; and references to college and growing up in Ohio and Dayton.”

The Twitter account painted a picture of a left-wing anarchist and discontent, very far from the anti-immigration manifesto posted by Saturday’s El Paso gunman.

“Vote blue for gods sake,” he wrote last Nov. 2. On the day of the senator’s death, Betts wrote “F—k John McCain.”

Though he had a fascination for guns, Betts also was a fan of gun control and blamed Republicans for school shootings.



Politically, Betts was on the far left. His pinned Top Tweet was a retweet of someone else’s claim that “Millennials have a message for the Joe Biden generation: hurry up and die.”

When another Twitter user posted a picture of Ms. Warren and 2020 Democratic presidential rival Kamala Harris and asked “co-Presidents?” Betts poured scorn.


“Nahh, but only cuz Harris is a cop - Warren I’d happily vote for,” he replied.

When noting that alt-right demonstrators were marching in Charlottesville, a rally that later ended in the death of Heather Heyer, he exhort

When noting that alt-right demonstrators were marching in Charlottesville, a rally that later ended in the death of Heather Heyer, he exhorted his followers: “Kill every fascist.”

According to Heavy, Betts also shared posts about “concentration camps” at the border and wrote, “Cut the fences down. Slice ICE tires. Throw bolt cutters over the fences.”

[LittleLebowski]

The shooter in Dayton was very much an open leftist. Andy Ngo has been covering this.

https://twitter.com/MrAndyNgo/status/1158162110364311553

40912

[Hambo]

While there is no official word on the motive for the Dayton shooting, there is now clear evidence the Dayton Shooter was a left wing extremist. The shooter acting less than 24 hours after the right wing extremist in El Paso, TX is.... interesting.


What's clear is that both of them had serious mental problems. Overnight I read an article that Betts had a hit list while in high school, and the Dayton news said yesterday that when asked about Betts, people said, "I'm not surprised it was him." Both of these guys formed whatever warped ideology they have or had in order to justify mass murder.

[Hambo]

The shooter in Dayton was very much an open leftist.

Making the shootings in El Paso and Dayton about right or left is the wrong place to start and will lead to the wrong conclusions or proposed solutions.

Start with mental illness, and then go from there. If these assholes had never heard of socialism or white supremacy, they'd have still found a reason to kill others.

[Zincwarrior]

Making the shootings in El Paso and Dayton about right or left is the wrong place to start and will lead to the wrong conclusions or proposed solutions.

Start with mental illness, and then go from there. If these assholes had never heard of socialism or white supremacy, they'd have still found a reason to kill others.

I disagree. There has been a strong rise of white supremacist / antisemetic attacks in the last five years. Just as Al Qaeda / ISIL / Taliban / etc. have been radicalizing young men, young men are now being radicalized in this way as well. It needs to be treated as domestic terrorism and dealt with like the domestic terrorism it is. Mass shootings are just one aspect of that.

[Hambo]

Andy McCabe agrees with you. He was suggesting more electronic and online surveillance. But how does that help when they're spewing the wrong hate? Or when they're not spewing it until just before shooting?

[LittleLebowski]

Making the shootings in El Paso and Dayton about right or left is the wrong place to start and will lead to the wrong conclusions or proposed solutions.

Start with mental illness, and then go from there. If these assholes had never heard of socialism or white supremacy, they'd have still found a reason to kill others.

I agree, but I've already had to tell three coworkers that the Ohio shooter was not a "white supremacist".

[blues]

Personally, I don't give a rat's about the personal philosophy of any of these miscreants. Once you step over the line into such acts of violence you've relinquished your right to continue dwelling among the living.

The quicker it is dealt with and put an end to, the better for all. (Including those mentally challenged but still smart enough to have the presence of mind to reconsider in light of the consequences...however many or few they may be.)

[Zincwarrior]

Andy McCabe agrees with you. He was suggesting more electronic and online surveillance. But how does that help when they're spewing the wrong hate? Or when they're not spewing it until just before shooting?

Its a problem, but the Federales need to pursue it (and they have been, judging by occasional arrests that fly through the news quickly - like the Coast Guard Captain, etc.) just like any other organized crime or terrorism. I believe the FBI noted it as being the most important domestic terrorism threat currently.

My point is more that it needs t be recognized for what it is. We destroyed the KKK and crushed other domestic terrorism groups. We as a society need to address this as well.

[Zincwarrior]

I agree, but I've already had to tell three coworkers that the Ohio shooter was not a "white supremacist".
Do we actually know what he was at this point? He seems a big legit crazy from some news things about kill lists etc., plus wacking your sister first...

[LittleLebowski]

Do we actually know what he was at this point? He seems a big legit crazy from some news things about kill lists etc., plus wacking your sister first...

Hardcore left wing with a touch of Satanism (not kidding). His Twitter feed was straight up Antifa with a lot of LE hatred.

[Zincwarrior]

I'd say then why is he attacking a bar, thats just crazy yep.

[Hambo]

Do we actually know what he was at this point? He seems a big legit crazy from some news things about kill lists etc., plus wacking your sister first...

Which makes my point. Crazy is the starting point, not professed ideology. We tend to write off juvenile records, and it seems that no one of any political persuasion wants psych records to be more available to LE. Yet those are two things that mass shooters tend to have in common.

Straight up, I wonder if some day I'll be the guy saying, "I knew it would be him." I had to report a kid I know because he made threats to himself and his school in one social media post. He's had 1-2 involuntary commitments, I believe one voluntary, and was expelled for the threats. Both parents have psych history. AFAIK he gets no ongoing psychiatric help. If he kills somebody someday, it's won't be because he is a Democrat or Republican.

[LittleLebowski]

I'd say then why is he attacking a bar, thats just crazy yep.

Sorry little cowardly shit.

[Zincwarrior]

Trump proposing fed death penalty, red flag laws. Only thing concrete so far.

Says we need to address mental health and evilz video games.

[Trukinjp13]

Mental Health definitely needs addressed. Almost every one of these younger mass shooters had some seriously blatant issues. Just because someone can plan something out in a cold calculated manner, does not mean they are not wired correctly.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Sensei]

Start with mental illness, and then go from there. If these assholes had never heard of socialism or white supremacy, they'd have still found a reason to kill others.

Why? Do you have some evidence that either of these 2 mass murderers suffered from a mental illness aside from the fact that they committed a crime by killing large numbers of people?

It sounds like some of you view the ability and to take life on a large scale as prima facie evidence of a mental illness. If that were the case, people like OBL, Adolf Eichmann, John Basilone, and about half of our current crop of combat aviators could be lumped under layperson assessment of “crazy” or “mentally ill” because they each demonstrated a capacity to kill on a large scale.

The problem with this is that most mass murders will not fit the DSM criteria for a mental illness such as schizophrenia, bipolar, or depression in the months leading up to or at the time of their crimes. That means you are asking us to screen for that which does not exist. At best, you may squeeze a personality or substance use disorder which are behavior conditions distinct from mental illness.

Finally, if society continues this trend of medicalizing criminal behavior, get ready for failure. The medical and mental health professions don’t have the diagnostic tools, screening mechanisms, manpower, or treatment algorithms to address this. If we did, then our prisons would not be packed with people willing to commit mass violence. Take a close look at the substance abuse crisis if you doubt me. If you continue to call this a medical or mental health issue, then be prepared to accept my profession’s prescription which will be an attempt at lethality reduction via bans on all semiautomatic rifles and high capacity magazines with no sunset or grandfather provision.

[Hambo]

Why? Do you have some evidence that either of these 2 mass murderers suffered from a mental illness aside from the fact that they committed a crime by killing large numbers of people?

It sounds like some of you view the ability and to take life on a large scale as prima facie evidence of a mental illness. If that were the case, people like OBL, Adolf Eichmann, John Basilone, and about half of our current crop of combat aviators could be lumped under layperson assessment of “crazy” or “mentally ill” because they each demonstrated a capacity to kill on a large scale.

The problem with this is that most mass murders will not fit the DSM criteria for a mental illness such as schizophrenia, bipolar, or depression in the months leading up to or at the time of their crimes. That means you are asking us to screen for that which does not exist. At best, you may squeeze a personality or substance use disorder which are behavior conditions distinct from mental illness.

Finally, if society continues this trend of medicalizing criminal behavior, get ready for failure. The medical and mental health professions don’t have the diagnostic tools, screening mechanisms, manpower, or treatment algorithms to address this. If we did, then our prisons would not be packed with people willing to commit mass violence. Take a close look at the substance abuse crisis if you doubt me. If you continue to call this a medical or mental health issue, then be prepared to accept my profession’s prescription which will be an attempt at lethality reduction via bans on all semiautomatic rifles and high capacity magazines with no sunset or grandfather provision.

So what do you think would work? Because we're about to get some gun control whether your profession is involved or not.

[BehindBlueI's]

I disagree. There has been a strong rise of white supremacist / antisemetic attacks in the last five years. Just as Al Qaeda / ISIL / Taliban / etc. have been radicalizing young men, young men are now being radicalized in this way as well. It needs to be treated as domestic terrorism and dealt with like the domestic terrorism it is. Mass shootings are just one aspect of that.

Terrorism works. Commit an atrocity, get everyone talking about you. Get free publicity for your fucked up world view. You go out a "martyr" for whatever fucked up world view that is. This thread further proves it.

Society continues to encourage the acts by rewarding them with the fame, notoriety, and platform the fuckwits desire. It gives them a sense of purpose, something that so many lack in today's culture.

[LittleLebowski]

Mental Health definitely needs addressed. Almost every one of these younger mass shooters had some seriously blatant issues. Just because someone can plan something out in a cold calculated manner, does not mean they are not wired correctly.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'll bet that most of them come from single parent households.

[Sensei]

So what do you think would work? Because we're about to get some gun control whether your profession is involved or not.

Humans have been venting their frustrations through mass killing for a while. I’ll turn my attention to solving that problem next week - right after I’m done curing cancer. ;)

[Glenn E. Meyer]

As far as mental illness - folks are evoking one of the older views of definition. Doing something outside of the statistical norm is abnormal and must be mental illness. Thus, as mentioned above, many of the shooters don't fall into the categories in current use from various diagnostic systems.

If just committing the act is mental illness, then all aberrant activities are mental illness and criminal justice is an invalid concept.

The left or right identification is not useful except for political blather. A person prone to accepting an overarching, basically authoritarian world view, can go left or right and be violent.

[Hambo]

Humans have been venting their frustrations through mass killing for a while. I’ll turn my attention to solving that problem next week - right after I’m done curing cancer. ;)

Surely you can do both in less time than that. ;) I was really hoping for a professional redirection from the emotional responses of "fewer guns, fewer dead".

[Borderland]

Trump proposing fed death penalty, red flag laws. Only thing concrete so far.

Says we need to address mental health and evilz video games.

Federal death penalty won't fly. That's always been left up to the states to decide. That's just more fed gov't intrusion into something they have no business legislating, like AWB's, UBC's and ERPO. The ERPO laws are creeping across the landscape by state legislation anyway.

So in essence he really didn't have a plan to actually change anything. Just a bunch of rhetoric that was more or less meaningless. Except I think he did say he was willing to sign some more gun control legislation if he could get more money for a wall. That seems like a bad deal to me.

Trump better hope that congress doesn't put a UBC, AWB or ERPO bill on his desk because he would have to sign it to win an election. Not signing it would be a pretty big stick the dems would use on him daily.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Wonder what the fractured hierarchy of the NRA will say about his speech? The new figure head president said in her first editorial that the NRA's priority was the re-election of Donald Trump.

The NRA has tried to shift blame to video games but the evidence for that as causal is shaky. It might be contributor but being the major cause of a rampage is doubtful. It comes from the violence priming aggression studies which have shown some lab results but transfer to the real world is debated strongly. However, the same type of studies indicate that weapons presence itself can prime similar ideation. So the NRA can't have it both ways.

[HCM]

So what do you think would work? Because we're about to get some gun control whether your profession is involved or not.

No doubt some, maybe even many mass shooters are mentally ill. But not all. Far from it. The idea that taking human lives on a mass scale is inherently mental illness is a form of denial and ignores the reality of human history.

The fact is that in addition to our mental health issues, there is a real problem with domestic terrorism in this country. Domestic terrorism being the use of force or violence to influence a population or achieve a political goal.

From the Congressional softball shooter, to Gavin Long murdering seven police officers in Dallas, TX, we have been denying the nature of these acts of domestic terrorism, afraid to call them what they are.

Let’s be honest, the idea of political violence in the U.S. makes people uncomfortable. They would rather hide behind the lie that all mass violence is the result of mental illness.

I can’t speak to the Dayton shooter, but I can tell you the left wing extremist who attacked the ICE detention center in Tacoma on July 13th and the right wing El Paso shooter are not clinically mentally ill and consciously chose to do what the did as political acts.

[HCM]

Federal death penalty won't fly. That's always been left up to the states to decide. That's just more fed gov't intrusion into something they have no business legislating, like AWB's, UBC's and ERPO. The ERPO laws are creeping across the landscape by state legislation anyway.

So in essence he really didn't have a plan to actually change anything. Just a bunch of rhetoric that was more or less meaningless. Except I think he did say he was willing to sign some more gun control legislation if he could get more money for a wall. That seems like a bad deal to me.

Trump better hope that congress doesn't put a UBC, AWB or ERPO bill on his desk because he would have to sign it to win an election. Not signing it would be a pretty big stick the dems would use on him daily.

Timothy McVeigh would say other wise, if he hadn’t been executed by the federal government for an act of domestic terrorism.

Trump will make noise about gun control but if he actually acted on it he would alienate his base. All they have to do is stay home and the Donald is out in 2020.

[Spartan1980]

Federal death penalty won't fly. That's always been left up to the states to decide.

Timothy McVeigh?

He did bomb a federal building tho. And the state case played 2nd fiddle to the feds and understandably so. But the feds did in fact kill him. He didn't really fight it and it still took too damn long!

[HCM]

I disagree. There has been a strong rise of white supremacist / antisemetic attacks in the last five years. Just as Al Qaeda / ISIL / Taliban / etc. have been radicalizing young men, young men are now being radicalized in this way as well. It needs to be treated as domestic terrorism and dealt with like the domestic terrorism it is. Mass shootings are just one aspect of that.

The left is not far behind. The Congressional softball shooting and the July13 attack on the ICE facility in Tacoma, WA being but two examples.

Groups like the Red Guards, the Socialist Rifle Association and the John Brown Gun Club aka Redneck Revolt are all threats equivalent to the armed right wing groups.

[blues]

No doubt some, maybe even many mass shooters are mentally ill. But not all. Far from it. The idea that taking human lives on a mass scale is inherently mental illness is a form of denial and ignores the reality of human history.

The fact is that in addition to our mental health issues, there is a real problem with domestic terrorism in this country. Domestic terrorism being the use of force or violence to influence a population or achieve a political goal.

From the Congressional softball shooter, to Gavin Long murdering seven police officers in Dallas, TX, we have been denying the nature of these acts of domestic terrorism, afraid to call them what they are.

Let’s be honest, the idea of political violence in the U.S. makes people uncomfortable. They would rather hide behind the lie that all mass violence is the result of mental illness.

I can’t speak to the Dayton shooter, but I can tell you the left wing extremist who attacked the ICE detention center in Tacoma on July 13th and the right wing El Paso shooter are not clinically mentally ill and consciously chose to do what the did as political acts.

Punish the act. That's why I don't care what the motive is...psychosis, political, religious, extraterrestrial...

...You perform, or attempt to perform, the act and suffer the consequences. Quickly...if not immediately.

We can't stop 'em from occurring, perhaps, but we can deal with them more expeditiously and society at large will be better for it.

[Spartan1980]

Punish the act. That's why I don't care what the motive is...psychosis, political, religious, extraterrestrial...

...You perform, or attempt to perform, the act and suffer the consequences. Quickly...if not immediately.

We can't stop 'em from occurring, perhaps, but we can deal with them more expeditiously and society at large will be better for it.

Exactly. Also, not all of these pukes are mentally ill like we hear daily. It seems that most people are so averse to these incidents that they automatically assume it's caused by mental illness. Not true. There are just evil and just plain mean people out there that are perfectly sane and in no way mentally defective or diseased. They've forgotten that.

[Trukinjp13]

Would love to see a percentage of video game players who grew up functional adults vs players who became mass shooters. I bet it is microscopic.

Also just because the system says someone was not classified as mentally does not mean shit to me. I know people in my own life that were pretty fucked up. But they had no one in their life to get them help or they were in denial and refused to believe their kids had problems. Schools are a joke now a days also. You know scary mental stuff and all that horseshit. Some people will not go near it or even want to talk about it. It’s not a free pass, but it is a problem.

Evil is evil, plain and simple. But if we could catch it at a younger age or before it really manifests maybe that could help make a difference. Seems to me some of the worst that have ever existed showed signs that they were off before they were able to inflict maximum damage.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Glenn E. Meyer]

The percentage of game players who go off and the percentage of gun owners who go off is small. The argument is that this small percentage has some flaw that the exposure to the aggressive priming of guns and games will trigger. Thus, do you ban or control such from the majority to prevent the triggering of the minority.

As far as left and right violence, if you look at modern European history and our History starting from the 1900's, there is a good deal of terrorism from both sides here and in Europe. NYC had an active bomb squad because of such terrorism before WWI. Very interesting history if you read about it. After WWI, left vs. right violence was rampant with the right winning the battle and leading to the totalitarian societies in most of Europe. Excluding UK, Scandinavia, Switzerland, Benelux.

[vcdgrips]

HCM says:

"I can’t speak to the Dayton shooter, but I can tell you the left wing extremist who attacked the ICE detention center in Tacoma on July 13th and the right wing El Paso shooter are not clinically mentally ill and consciously chose to do what the did as political acts."

Respectfully, these are not mutually exclusive. The answer may not be A or B, but rather C, all of the above- in that the acts are in fact political AND subject/defendant(s) are clinically mentally ill.
Moreover, unless one is a trained clinician who has had contact with the subject/defendant and/or reviewed prior records etc., I think it is tough to know whether they were clinically mentally ill or not, particularly at the time of the offense.

FWIW/IMHO. I acknowledge that I am not a mental health professional.

[Crow Hunter]

Terrorism works. Commit an atrocity, get everyone talking about you. Get free publicity for your fucked up world view. You go out a "martyr" for whatever fucked up world view that is. This thread further proves it.

Society continues to encourage the acts by rewarding them with the fame, notoriety, and platform the fuckwits desire. It gives them a sense of purpose, something that so many lack in today's culture.

This is what EVERYONE should be saying.

EVERYONE needs to stop looking for the "magic pill" or "silver bullet". There isn't one. No amount of gun bans, magazine bans, chat room bans, censorship of movies or games, drugs or laws will fix the problem until we resolve the above.

THAT is what give White Power, Wahabi, Kamakazi, SS Einsatzgruppen whatever group the reason to do what they do.

It ISN'T any different than the reason people will pick up a rifle and jump out of an perfectly good airplane to stop Nazis. People need to understand that those Nazis/Taliban/ISIS/etc are doing the same thing for their own personal sense of purpose.

How do we give young males a sense of purpose that doesn't involve murdering innocents?

THIS is something that the Hollywierd elite/tech gurus have the means to organize and support. Use that tech and all that charisma and huge grandstand to do SOMETHING other than glorifying whatever the Kardashians are doing.

DO GOOD!!!

[JHC]

So what do you think would work? Because we're about to get some gun control whether your profession is involved or not.

Gowdy doesn't exactly know but he sounds ready to wave the white flag.

“Show me the law and sign me up and I will give up any other right I have,” Gowdy repeated.

https://www.mediaite.com/tv/trey-gowdy-gets-emotional-calling-for-action-after-mass-shootings-right-to-bear-arms-doesnt-matter-if-youre-dead/

Sounds like he was rambling a bit. A little out of sorts.

[Borderland]

Timothy McVeigh?

He did bomb a federal building tho. And the state case played 2nd fiddle to the feds and understandably so. But the feds did in fact kill him. He didn't really fight it and it still took too damn long!

I think, never sure, that Trump was referring to executing domestic terrorists. There have been only 3 people executed by the fed since 1963. One of them was McVeigh and that was for the murder of federal LEO's. I'm guessing that the charge wasn't terrorism. The other two was for rape/murder. One was a military trial.

In order to execute a domestic terrorist the US code would have to be changed. I think that's what Trump was referring to.

Just looking at it from a state level Texas has executed a lot of people. Odds are good that the El Paso shooter won't die from natural causes. If that had happened in NM, a few miles away, I doubt the shooter would be executed.

[Duke]

Trey Gowdy Gets Emotional Calling For Action After Mass Shootings: Right to Bear Arms Doesn’t Matter ‘If You’re Dead’.

That’s dumb as fuck.

[Borderland]

That’s dumb as fuck.

Yeah, people get all dumb struck by this senseless killing and want it to stop. I'm one of those people but I also realize that the US has some special problems when it comes to the federal gov't cracking down on domestic terrorists.

I think this goes all the way back to the American revolution. If that had failed the British would have hung many who were considered to be subjects of the King of England.

[JHC]

Damn. Distant Early Warning.

“He had a kill list that was mostly guys and then a rape list that was mostly girls,” Masseth said, adding that he also texted her the list to prove she was on it. “The lists basically had any girl who turned him down, any girl who thought they were above him, and any guy that was competition or was seen as a threat.”


https://www.thedailybeast.com/classmate-says-dayton-shooter-connor-betts-targeted-her-in-high-school-we-predicted-he-would-do-this?ref=home

[BillSWPA]

Damn. Distant Early Warning.

“He had a kill list that was mostly guys and then a rape list that was mostly girls,” Masseth said, adding that he also texted her the list to prove she was on it. “The lists basically had any girl who turned him down, any girl who thought they were above him, and any guy that was competition or was seen as a threat.”


https://www.thedailybeast.com/classmate-says-dayton-shooter-connor-betts-targeted-her-in-high-school-we-predicted-he-would-do-this?ref=home

This is at least the second time (Parkland, FL being another example) of a mass shooting in which people were concerned enough about the shooter to go to the police (or in the case of Parkland, the FBI) some time prior to the actual shooting. The Texas WalMart thread discusses the possibility of abuse of red flag laws, and I completely agree that any such laws need to be carefully drafted to minimize this potential. However, if someone is sending people rape lists, that should definitely meet the standard for taking some action. How is that not in itself the crime of making threats?!

[Duke]

Yeah, people get all dumb struck by this senseless killing and want it to stop. I'm one of those people but I also realize that the US has some special problems when it comes to the federal gov't cracking down on domestic terrorists.

I think this goes all the way back to the American revolution. If that had failed the British would have hung many who were considered to be subjects of the King of England.

Concur.


Gowdy sounds less crazy moms demand action in the video but I still miss his point

Is he saying more laws won’t fix it, enforce what’s written or is
He saying no law matters if you’re dead?

Either way - as a husband and father like he said - I’m not signing away any of my rights.

[BillSWPA]

Gowdy doesn't exactly know but he sounds ready to wave the white flag.

“Show me the law and sign me up and I will give up any other right I have,” Gowdy repeated.

https://www.mediaite.com/tv/trey-gowdy-gets-emotional-calling-for-action-after-mass-shootings-right-to-bear-arms-doesnt-matter-if-youre-dead/

Sounds like he was rambling a bit. A little out of sorts.

Didn't Ben Franklin say something about those who would give up essential liberty for temporary safety?

Part of what Gowdy's statement shows is that the increasingly frequent mass shootings are having an impact on people's minds, and on our ability to maintain our rights. We need to be prepared to persuade people exactly why rights = safety. Screaming "Second Amendment" is not going to help.

[Sensei]

This is at least the second time (Parkland, FL being another example) of a mass shooting in which people were concerned enough about the shooter to go to the police (or in the case of Parkland, the FBI) some time prior to the actual shooting. The Texas WalMart thread discusses the possibility of abuse of red flag laws, and I completely agree that any such laws need to be carefully drafted to minimize this potential. However, if someone is sending people rape lists, that should definitely meet the standard for taking some action. How is that not in itself the crime of making threats?!

The OH shooter was 24. That means that those threats occurred at least 6 years ago when he was in high school and likely still a juvenile. My understanding that his recent online content was bizarre and politically charged but probably not something that would have been actionable under one of the existing red flag laws in any state.

We still need to learn more about the immediate timeline preceding the shooting from the friend who drove with the killer to the scene and was himself injured. We also need to hear from the shooter’s parents regarding his recent behavior in days leading up to the tragedy.

[Sensei]

I'll bet that most of them come from single parent households.

Our current social experiment of single parent households, suppressed independence, lowered expectations, substance abuse, and usurpation of bedrock institutions by social media has not worked well for us.

[LittleLebowski]

Our current social experiment of single parent households, suppressed independence, lowered expectations, substance abuse, and usurpation of bedrock institutions by social media has not worked well for us.

I am a fan of your ideas and wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

[11B10]

Damn, if hadn't heard Trey Gowdy say that myself, I wouldn't have believed it. I'll never forget his role in the Benghazi investigation.

[El Cid]

Concur.


Gowdy sounds less crazy moms demand action in the video but I still miss his point

Is he saying more laws won’t fix it, enforce what’s written or is
He saying no law matters if you’re dead?

Either way - as a husband and father like he said - I’m not signing away any of my rights.

I took it as there is no law we can pass that will prevent this. If there was he’d sign away his rights. Sounded like hyperbole to me.

[snow white]

So I have a thought and I apologize if this is a drift from this specific incident but i wonder if there is a psychological correlation between the uptick in mass shootings during the past two decades and the war on terror. or maybe not the war on terror but the nature of the enemy we have been fighting and the tactics they use to wage war. is it possible that being constantly confronted with this kind of terrorist style tactic of hitting soft targets, and having the imagery in our collective psyche for so long has normalized this kind of thing and therefor made it a more viable option for somebody looking to be "a bad guy" or attempting to make a point and be heard? im not saying its a direct cause but rather a contributing factor in causing somebody to consider this kind of thing an option, a "ive been seeing people do this on the news my whole life to make there points" kind of thing. look at the age of allot of these people, they have never known any other "national enemy" other than terrorist organizations doing terrorist shit. but i dont know man, just a thought ive had.

[Kirk]

My heart goes out to the victims in both of these shootings, it's terrible. Very frustrating that these scumbags are committing these horrific acts.

Have a question, as I wasn't in the gun community for the 1st AWB. Do any of you realistically foresee a mag capacity ban coming as a result of these tragedies? I can't get a good read on it politically.

[TGS]

My heart goes out to the victims in both of these shootings, it's terrible. Very frustrating that these scumbags are committing these horrific acts.

Have a question, as I wasn't in the gun community for the 1st AWB. Do any of you realistically foresee a mag capacity ban coming as a result of these tragedies? I can't get a good read on it politically.

If there wasn't a nationwide gun reform after Sandy, I don't see one coming from these. IMO.

[Hambo]

Our current social experiment of single parent households, suppressed independence, lowered expectations, substance abuse, and usurpation of bedrock institutions by social media has not worked well for us.


Because blues mentioned "Little Murders" the other day, here's an apt quote from it: "It's dangerous to challenge a system unless you're completely at peace with the thought that you're not going to miss it when it collapses." We should have thought of that before the experiment.

[blues]

Because blues mentioned "Little Murders" the other day, here's an apt quote from it: "It's dangerous to challenge a system unless you're completely at peace with the thought that you're not going to miss it when it collapses." We should have thought of that before the experiment.

I won't link it here so as not to diminish the gravitas of this thread but I just noticed that the entire film is available (free) on youtube.
Haven't seen it in many a year.

[TheNewbie]

Our current social experiment of single parent households, suppressed independence, lowered expectations, substance abuse, and usurpation of bedrock institutions by social media has not worked well for us.

Much wisdom above.

[mmc45414]

Our current social experiment of single parent households, suppressed independence, lowered expectations, substance abuse, and usurpation of bedrock institutions by social media has not worked well for us.
And then the development of the mystique of the AR-15, elevating all those who behold it to empowerment to a level of invincibility.

[Totem Polar]

Our current social experiment of single parent households, suppressed independence, lowered expectations, substance abuse, and usurpation of bedrock institutions by social media has not worked well for us.

You might have forgotten 24/7 free access to fetish porn, but otherwise, yeah.

[Trukinjp13]

I am pretty sure Gowdy was explaining that there is no way you can just make a law to stop mass shooters. As in do not have a knee jerk reaction to this. If there was some magical law that would fix all of these problems he would be the first to sign up.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[GardoneVT]

You might have forgotten 24/7 free access to fetish porn, but otherwise, yeah.

Doubt this will be received well here, but here goes.

The notion of “way back when we had MORALs this never happened” is bull. There were mass shootings in the 60s (remember the Texas Tower massacre?) . Are we to presume high def fetish porn caused that too?

There were evil mass murderers in the 1950s. There are evil mass murderers now. There will be evil mass murderers in the year 2120- and I suspect there too will be misguided souls claiming it’s all due to VR porn and OTC weed.

[Totem Polar]

Doubt this will be received well here, but here goes.

The notion of “way back when we had MORALs this never happened” is bull. There were mass shootings in the 60s (remember the Texas Tower massacre?) . Are we to presume high def fetish porn caused that too?

There were evil mass murderers in the 1950s. There are evil mass murderers now. There will be evil mass murderers in the year 2120- and I suspect there too will be misguided souls claiming it’s all due to VR porn and OTC weed.

Point taken. Mr Sidheshooter apologizes for the error.

[willie]

A weakened NRA means less effective lobbyists. We will see less outrage about gun restrictions from the so-called man in the street. We will see perhaps 1000's of signed student appeals for gun control. All the alphabet soup organization like Madd and others like Red Cross, NEA, Nat'l Council of Churches, school boards, college boards, police unions, town councils, colleges and universities, and countless community groups will jump up and demand change. I predict that even some gun clubs like trap and skeet clubs will endorse anti 2A legislation. Even some gun forums have members saying crap like 5 is enough.

I think Trump will cave in and sign such legislation because he will soon take tremendous heat from his farm tariff policies involving China. I have never viewed him as a 2A guy. My opinion is that he does not care.

Get ready to explain just exactly how being restricted to 10 or 8 round magazines would prevent your being able to defend yourself. Prepare to defend continued sale of current magazines in light of mass shootings.

[StraitR]

This could get interesting...


40950

USA TODAY (https://www.usatoday.com/news/)•August 5, 2019


CINCINNATI – Even though it looked like a rifle, the gun used to kill nine people and wound at least 14 more (http://bit.ly/2GL1pGL) was likely classified as a pistol, skirting laws restricting short-barreled rifles.
Will the device on Connor Betts' weapon, called a "pistol brace," become the next bump stock in nation's gun control debate?

https://news.yahoo.com/dayton-shooter-used-modified-gun-234559889.html (https://news.yahoo.com/dayton-shooter-used-modified-gun-234559889.html)

[ralph]

This could get interesting...


40950

USA TODAY (https://www.usatoday.com/news/)•August 5, 2019


CINCINNATI – Even though it looked like a rifle, the gun used to kill nine people and wound at least 14 more (http://bit.ly/2GL1pGL) was likely classified as a pistol, skirting laws restricting short-barreled rifles.
Will the device on Connor Betts' weapon, called a "pistol brace," become the next bump stock in nation's gun control debate?

https://news.yahoo.com/dayton-shooter-used-modified-gun-234559889.html (https://news.yahoo.com/dayton-shooter-used-modified-gun-234559889.html)


If enough attention is brought to it, it'll go the way of the bump stock..

[Rick62]

It was only a matter of time until a brace was involved in such an incident.


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[StraitR]

If enough attention is brought to it, it'll go the way of the bump stock..

The precedent was set with bump stocks, deemed an accessory, where they had no 2A protection.

The end goal will always be gun banning, but the left has learned to take what they can get. Can't get the guns, get the mags. Can't get the mags, get the accessory.

Pistol braces may easily turn into the low-hanging fruit.

[Spartan1980]

And just how pray tell does a braced AR prove to be more deadly than the regular iteration?

I swear we live with deranged people focusing the discussion and deranged "representatives" thinking their opinion matters.

[ralph]

The precedent was set with bump stocks, deemed an accessory, where they had no 2A protection.

The end goal will always be gun banning, but the left has learned to take what they can get. Can't get the guns, get the mags. Can't get the mags, get the accessory.

Pistol braces may easily turn into the low-hanging fruit.

I agree, low hanging fruit, easy enough to ban.. I've always felt that braces would end up like bump stocks, earlier this year I bought a CZ Scorpion, I had a choice between a braced pistol/carbine or a regular 16" barreled carbine with a folding stock....I choose the regular 16" carbine, I'm glad I did..

[Sensei]

I have only 1 pistol brace equipped gun (a Sig Rattler). I only dipped my toe in the pistol brace waters for fear that the ATF would revisit their favorable guidance once they started showing up at high profile crime scenes.

I suspect that they will be Trump’s next offering on the alter of progressive appeasement.

[Jeep]

I swear we live with deranged people focusing the discussion and deranged "representatives" thinking their opinion matters.

Just one of the downsides in transitioning from a Constitutional republic to a media circus democracy. But the upside is 24/7 cable news blasting constant outrage and demanding that the government immediately ban evil.

[Borderland]

A weakened NRA means less effective lobbyists. We will see less outrage about gun restrictions from the so-called man in the street. We will see perhaps 1000's of signed student appeals for gun control. All the alphabet soup organization like Madd and others like Red Cross, NEA, Nat'l Council of Churches, school boards, college boards, police unions, town councils, colleges and universities, and countless community groups will jump up and demand change. I predict that even some gun clubs like trap and skeet clubs will endorse anti 2A legislation. Even some gun forums have members saying crap like 5 is enough.

I think Trump will cave in and sign such legislation because he will soon take tremendous heat from his farm tariff policies involving China. I have never viewed him as a 2A guy. My opinion is that he does not care.

Get ready to explain just exactly how being restricted to 10 or 8 round magazines would prevent your being able to defend yourself. Prepare to defend continued sale of current magazines in light of mass shootings.


A searchable database of farm aid payments obtained by the Associated Press shows the U.S. Department of Agriculture paid $50.7 million to 7,538 Washington farmers for 2018 damages. That’s an average of about $6,700 each.
https://www.bellinghamherald.com/news/business/article233391522.html

That's just in WA state. Still it isn't nearly enough for the losses to farmers that rely on exports. Eventually the damage to farmers will become apparent. Most of the farms in WA are family owned. We're sinking into a protracted trade war with China and it just isn't farmers being jammed up.

A good indication of disposable income is new car sales. Some dealers still have 2018 inventory to sell. I doubt they'll be ordering very many 2020 models.
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/08/05/car-dealers-struggle-to-sell-2018-new-car-inventory-to-make-room-for-2020-cars.html

[WobblyPossum]

Damn. I was wondering when the first one of these assholes was going to commit their mass murder using a braced pistol. I hope pistol braces don’t go the way of the bump stock.

[BillSWPA]

Here is how I would make the argument in favor of keeping pistol braces legal:

Recall that the guy who stopped the church shooter in Sutherland, TX used an AR-15. He had that AR-15 because he ran to the church from his home. When he arrived, he faced a rifle-armed shooter wearing soft body armor. He was able to use his own rifle to place 2 hits on the shooter in places that were unprotected by that body armor.

An AR-15 pistol allows a good guy to have access to an AR-15 when away from home.

A brace enables the lawful user of that AR-15 pistol to make use of the full accuracy potential of the gun, allowing the lawful defender to make precise hits when required to get past body armor and/or to avoid hitting innocent people in close proximity to or behind the shooter. Because it is legally considered to be a pistol, it can be lawfully kept loaded and ready to go by the holder of a concealed handgun license (who went through at least a background check and in many states some training to get that license).

It is not going to be an easy argument, but there is a critical difference between a pistol brace and a bump stock: a pistol brace serves a legitimate useful purpose. Being able to articulate that legitimate useful purpose in a way that demonstrates that it helps good people stay safe is critical for persuading the persuadable. Fail to do so, and you lose, each and every time.

[OlongJohnson]

I am a fan of your ideas and wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

Pretty sure you get it daily.



A good indication of disposable income is new car sales which are at a 14 year low. Some dealers still have 2018 inventory to sell. I doubt they'll be ordering very many 2020 models.
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/08/05/car-dealers-struggle-to-sell-2018-new-car-inventory-to-make-room-for-2020-cars.html


Working in the automotive industry, I remember Carpocalypse from the last round. First, gasoline went from $2.80/gal to $4.80/gal in about a month. I remember, because I was getting serious about shopping for a car that got ~19 mpg, and then forgot about it right quick. It was driven by a simple bubble in trading gasoline as a commodity; I remember reading that every gallon of gas was bought and sold in commodities markets something like 28 times on average before it got to a pump. Everybody else stopped buying trucks and SUVs in late spring and summer, and dealerships started having serious problems. All months before the mortgage bubble got pricked and the GM and Chrysler bankruptcies. People not buying cars is a really bad sign.

It's weird to me that I never hear commentators discuss it, but it seems obvious that if the fuel bill to get back and forth to work goes up by several hundred $/month, that could get a family running on a tight string to delay a mortgage payment or two. Especially in places like SoCal where people may commute 30-50 miles each way, do the math on a full-size SUV's mileage... I've never understood why the connection between those two things is treated as totally unimportant or even nonexistent, except that maybe people in "important" places don't want regulators jumping into how certain commodities are traded.

[HCM]

The precedent was set with bump stocks, deemed an accessory, where they had no 2A protection.

The end goal will always be gun banning, but the left has learned to take what they can get. Can't get the guns, get the mags. Can't get the mags, get the accessory.

Pistol braces may easily turn into the low-hanging fruit.

No.

Bump stocks were not banned because they were deemed an accessory. They are not accessories. They are stocks, and Stocks, by ATF definition are an integral part of the firearm.

Bump stocks were re-classified (again) as “machine guns” just like auto sears, making them subject to the Hughes Amendment.

[HCM]

Damn. I was wondering when the first one of these assholes was going to commit their mass murder using a braced pistol. I hope pistol braces don’t go the way of the bump stock.

Legally, bump stocks and braces are two completely different animals.

The other issue is the number of braces /brace firearms out there far exceeds the number of bump stocks. The logistics of banning braces would be a heavy lift.

[Borderland]

Here is how I would make the argument in favor of keeping pistol braces legal:

Recall that the guy who stopped the church shooter in Sutherland, TX used an AR-15. He had that AR-15 because he ran to the church from his home. When he arrived, he faced a rifle-armed shooter wearing soft body armor. He was able to use his own rifle to place 2 hits on the shooter in places that were unprotected by that body armor.

An AR-15 pistol allows a good guy to have access to an AR-15 when away from home.

A brace enables the lawful user of that AR-15 pistol to make use of the full accuracy potential of the gun, allowing the lawful defender to make precise hits when required to get past body armor and/or to avoid hitting innocent people in close proximity to or behind the shooter. Because it is legally considered to be a pistol, it can be lawfully kept loaded and ready to go by the holder of a concealed handgun license (who went through at least a background check and in many states some training to get that license).

It is not going to be an easy argument, but there is a critical difference between a pistol brace and a bump stock: a pistol brace serves a legitimate useful purpose. Being able to articulate that legitimate useful purpose in a way that demonstrates that it helps good people stay safe is critical for persuading the persuadable. Fail to do so, and you lose, each and every time.

Trump will direct the ATF to reverse their decision about braces just like he did bumpstocks. I doubt he'll even wait for the NRA to endorse it. He won't lose any votes and may actually pick up a few. I didn't here any Trump supporters say they weren't going to vote for him after he banned bumpstocks and called for ERPO's, did you?

Actually, if he were smart, he would call for congress to stop SA rifle sales right now. He would gain more votes than he would lose. Most everyone I know already has one or six anyway.

Trump is going to surprise everyone bigly before the next election.

[Totem Polar]

Just one of the downsides in transitioning from a Constitutional republic to a media circus democracyl.

#golfclap (https://pistol-forum.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=golfclap)

[BillSWPA]

Trump will direct the ATF to reverse their decision about braces just like he did bumpstocks. I doubt he'll even wait for the NRA to endorse it. He won't lose any votes and may actually pick up a few. I didn't here any Trump supporters say they weren't going to vote for him after he banned bumpstocks and called for ERPO's, did you?

First of all, why do you or anyone else even care about bump stocks?

Second, the purpose of my post was not to bemoan the perceived inevitable, but to enable people to persuade others of our position, so that maybe, just maybe, it becomes less inevitable.

With the NRA in self-destruct mode, it is up to us to make those arguments to Trump as well as our representatives in the House and Senate.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Suvorov]

Our current social experiment of single parent households, suppressed independence, lowered expectations, substance abuse, and usurpation of bedrock institutions by social media has not worked well for us.

You have just solved 99% of the problem!


Too bad nobody will listen...... :(

[Bucky]

If enough attention is brought to it, it'll go the way of the bump stock..

To me the “brace” is a direct attempt to subvert an existing law. I don’t think the ATF should have allowed it. On the other hand, I would totally support repealing the SBR restrictions in the first place.

[olstyn]

And just how pray tell does a braced AR prove to be more deadly than the regular iteration?

It almost certainly doesn't, and outlawing braces would both change nothing and be highly impractical due to the number in circulation, but let's be honest - it's always been silly that an AR or AK could be classified as a pistol, and doing so has always been a way to get around the SBR rules, brace or no brace. (Note that I think the fact that SBRs are regulated the same way as machine guns is dumb, but so is the legal fiction that a pistol AR is not a rifle.)

[JHC]

I am a fan of your ideas and wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

Newsletter? For real?

[JAD]

Here is how I would make the argument in favor of keeping pistol braces legal:

Recall that the guy who stopped the church shooter in Sutherland, TX used an AR-15. He had that AR-15 because he ran to the church from his home. When he arrived, he faced a rifle-armed shooter wearing soft body armor. He was able to use his own rifle to place 2 hits on the shooter in places that were unprotected by that body armor.

An AR-15 pistol allows a good guy to have access to an AR-15 when away from home.

A brace enables the lawful user of that AR-15 pistol to make use of the full accuracy potential of the gun, allowing the lawful defender to make precise hits when required to get past body armor and/or to avoid hitting innocent people in close proximity to or behind the shooter. Because it is legally considered to be a pistol, it can be lawfully kept loaded and ready to go by the holder of a concealed handgun license (who went through at least a background check and in many states some training to get that license).

It is not going to be an easy argument, but there is a critical difference between a pistol brace and a bump stock: a pistol brace serves a legitimate useful purpose. Being able to articulate that legitimate useful purpose in a way that demonstrates that it helps good people stay safe is critical for persuading the persuadable. Fail to do so, and you lose, each and every time.

Bill,

You have clearly spent a lot of time framing arguments from need.

I don’t think the average voter gives two shits about what we think we need. I don’t think any of this is in the least compelling.

Our rights will stand or fall based on our influence in the legislature and the judiciary.

[JAD]

Newsletter? For real?

No, Lil was quoting an old... well, what memes were before we had memes.

[Rick62]

Legally, bump stocks and braces are two completely different animals.

The other issue is the number of braces /brace firearms out there far exceeds the number of bump stocks. The logistics of banning braces would be a heavy lift.

Aren't the differences between the two open to interpretation, or reinterpretation, by BATFE? They've been initially approved, then the 2015 "open letter" articulated that shouldering a brace was considered a "redesign", and then that opinion was clarified to say it did not constitute a redesign. Couldn't another re-interpretation, based possibly on high profile events and driven by the calls to "do something" deem them to be stocks? The braces wouldn't have to be confiscated. They could be sold and marketed openly, just the same as any other stock. Of course now everyone who has purchased a braced pistol in the last few years in in possession of a SBR. The last line of the most recent ATF letter on braces even spells out, referring to the "making" of NFA firearms: "The fact that an item may allow, or even be intended by it's manufacturer for other lawful purposes, does not affect the NFA analysis".

Regarding the numbers of braced pistols and how that relates to enforcing such a re-interpretation as nearly impossible; confiscation isn't necessary. As it's often been mentioned when it comes to hypothetical bans of firearms; there wouldn't need to be door to door searches. Owners simply live in fear of catching a life altering charge should they get caught. No more braced pistols at the range, no more braced pistols for the 'gram. It'd be a win for the anti gunners and a loss for freedom and our 2A rights. Another nail in the coffin.

I'd imagine those who were so quick to defend the re-classification of bump stocks will now jump at the chance to burn down pistol brace owners. But it's ok, because those who seek to limit our 2A rights will TOTALLY STOP at pistol braces and would NEVER pursue any further infringement on our rights. So we probably shouldn't even fight with one either. (HCM, I'm not at all saying this is your position, either in regards to bump stocks or braces)

[BillSWPA]

What is going to persuade voters, legislators, and judges is figuring out what they care about, and framing the arguments accordingly. My proposed arguments are based on the assumption that voters care primarily about whether the position we support leaves their families more or less safe. They probably care significantly less about the constitution, real or perceived rights, setting alleged precedents, etc.

We also have to have sufficient credibility with those we seek to persuade so that they understand that safety is our motivation.

That is why, if we want to win the battles for pistol braces, standard capacity magazines, guns of our choosing, national concealed carry reciprocity, suppressors, preventing abuse of red flag laws, etc., we need to stop talking about bump stocks. As soon as we start arguing for bump stocks, it is no longer about whether someone’s family is more or less safe at the end of the day, and we lose all of the other battles.



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[HCM]

Aren't the differences between the two open to interpretation, or reinterpretation, by BATFE? They've been initially approved, then the 2015 "open letter" articulated that shouldering a brace was considered a "redesign", and then that opinion was clarified to say it did not constitute a redesign. Couldn't another re-interpretation, based possibly on high profile events and driven by the calls to "do something" deem them to be stocks? The braces wouldn't have to be confiscated. They could be sold and marketed openly, just the same as any other stock. Of course now everyone who has purchased a braced pistol in the last few years in in possession of a SBR. The last line of the most recent ATF letter on braces even spells out, referring to the "making" of NFA firearms: "The fact that an item may allow, or even be intended by it's manufacturer for other lawful purposes, does not affect the NFA analysis".

Regarding the numbers of braced pistols and how that relates to enforcing such a re-interpretation as nearly impossible; confiscation isn't necessary. As it's often been mentioned when it comes to hypothetical bans of firearms; there wouldn't need to be door to door searches. Owners simply live in fear of catching a life altering charge should they get caught. No more braced pistols at the range, no more braced pistols for the 'gram. It'd be a win for the anti gunners and a loss for freedom and our 2A rights. Another nail in the coffin.

I'd imagine those who were so quick to defend the re-classification of bump stocks will now jump at the chance to burn down pistol brace owners. But it's ok, because those who seek to limit our 2A rights will TOTALLY STOP at pistol braces and would NEVER pursue any further infringement on our rights. So we probably shouldn't even fight with one either. (HCM, I'm not at all saying this is your position, either in regards to bump stocks or braces)

Braces are the product of ATF regulatory decision. That is the only thing they have in common with bump stocks.

Bumpstocks are legally STOCKS and stocks are “part of the firearm.”

Braces are legally ACCESSORIES and not “part of the firearm.”

It took SIG 2 years of legal fighting with ATF to get the original brace approved.

Precedent is a thing and a re-classification of braces would trigger a lawsuit in which arbitrary and capricious disregard that precedent would be a factor.

The 2015 open letter / “redesign” theory was based on the idea that the brace was part of the firearm which was quickly reversed because it was determined braces are accessories and thus not “part of the firearm.” This is why the recent decision about braces not counting towards OAL actually makes a general reversal on braces more difficult (legally) for ATF.

I’m sure braces would be part of any future AWB.

[farscott]

Pretty sure you get it daily.





Working in the automotive industry, I remember Carpocalypse from the last round. First, gasoline went from $2.80/gal to $4.80/gal in about a month. I remember, because I was getting serious about shopping for a car that got ~19 mpg, and then forgot about it right quick. It was driven by a simple bubble in trading gasoline as a commodity; I remember reading that every gallon of gas was bought and sold in commodities markets something like 28 times on average before it got to a pump. Everybody else stopped buying trucks and SUVs in late spring and summer, and dealerships started having serious problems. All months before the mortgage bubble got pricked and the GM and Chrysler bankruptcies. People not buying cars is a really bad sign.

It's weird to me that I never hear commentators discuss it, but it seems obvious that if the fuel bill to get back and forth to work goes up by several hundred $/month, that could get a family running on a tight string to delay a mortgage payment or two. Especially in places like SoCal where people may commute 30-50 miles each way, do the math on a full-size SUV's mileage... I've never understood why the connection between those two things is treated as totally unimportant or even nonexistent, except that maybe people in "important" places don't want regulators jumping into how certain commodities are traded.

I started my career in the automotive industry at one of (late, lamented) Big Three and am once again working in the industry for a Tier One supplier. Trucks and SUVs sell, but cars do not. I know because I bought a brand new car at the end of January, a 2017 Ford Taurus, for less than 70%, including all of the fees and taxes, of MSRP,. The car was new, with 22 miles on the odometer, when I drove it off the lot. The invoice showed the dealer had it in stock for two years when I purchased it. Our usual sales guy (when you live in a small town and buy your cars from the same dealership, you have a regular salesperson) told my wife that the dealer was desperate to move it and hinted any reasonable deal would be accepted. I, of course, offered a very unreasonable amount for my out-the-door (we write a check for the offer amount and we get the title) price and refused to budge. It took me less than two hours to get the dealership to agree to my first offer that included changing the oil and battery before I touched the vehicle, and the dealer principal had to come in and approve it. That was a sign of an irrational and depressed market as the dealer was tired of losing even more money paying for the flooring of the vehicle.

If fuel prices increase again, a lot of people are going to wish their trucks and SUVs were fuel-efficient cars. That will drive desperation in the industry as it will in consumers as many consumers will lose even more money by buying a car and many others will be so upside down that they become trapped. Many of the OEMs are prepping for the downturn with layoffs at Ford, GM pulling out of Europe, plant closures, etc. All at a time where many OEMs have bet that the future is trucks and SUVs (see Ford, which will sell only one car nameplate in North America, the Mustang). What happens when truck and SUV sales go back to 2008 levels?

So what does this have to do with guns and mass shootings? Well, in 1994, we got the draconian AWB. That was right after the automotive economy imploded in the early 1990s. We look to be repeating that boom-bust cycle, and people unhappy with their finances tend to support new laws that are supposed to make things better. People are also apt to throw out the current party in power (see 2008 with the Great Recession), which means we may see a President more than willing to use the power of executive orders to ban more items. That does not portend well for the 2nd Amendment.

[TGS]

The other issue is the number of braces /brace firearms out there far exceeds the number of bump stocks. The logistics of banning braces would be a heavy lift.

I'm wondering if the numerical popularity of braces would invoke Miller. They're pretty commonplace these days.

[HCM]

I'm wondering if the numerical popularity of braces would invoke Miller. They're pretty commonplace these days.

They certainly seem to be “in common use”

[Glenn E. Meyer]

There are two strategies:

1. Small steps such as brace bans (or reclassifciations), mag limits
2. Full scale bans on magazine fed semiauto long arms.

Of course, there are details that are important for each.

[Borderland]

First of all, why do you or anyone else even care about bump stocks?

Second, the purpose of my post was not to bemoan the perceived inevitable, but to enable people to persuade others of our position, so that maybe, just maybe, it becomes less inevitable.

With the NRA in self-destruct mode, it is up to us to make those arguments to Trump as well as our representatives in the House and Senate.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I don't care about bump stocks.

Most people don't know what a brace is just like they didn't know what a bump stock was.

Trump isn't looking to save your brace. He's looking to get some traction politically to win the election in 2020. Best way to do that right now is make it appear that he's concerned about the number of mass shootings and he's doing something about it. One easy way to do that is direct the ATF to reverse their decision on braces.

If you think Trump cares about your AR or anything that goes in it or on it you may be in for a yuge surprise. I could give you multiple links regarding the growing pressure on the administration and governors to start restricting things perceived to be a fix but if you have a news feed you already know that.

[Borderland]

I started my career in the automotive industry at one of (late, lamented) Big Three and am once again working in the industry for a Tier One supplier. Trucks and SUVs sell, but cars do not. I know because I bought a brand new car at the end of January, a 2017 Ford Taurus, for less than 70%, including all of the fees and taxes, of MSRP,. The car was new, with 22 miles on the odometer, when I drove it off the lot. The invoice showed the dealer had it in stock for two years when I purchased it. Our usual sales guy (when you live in a small town and buy your cars from the same dealership, you have a regular salesperson) told my wife that the dealer was desperate to move it and hinted any reasonable deal would be accepted. I, of course, offered a very unreasonable amount for my out-the-door (we write a check for the offer amount and we get the title) price and refused to budge. It took me less than two hours to get the dealership to agree to my first offer that included changing the oil and battery before I touched the vehicle, and the dealer principal had to come in and approve it. That was a sign of an irrational and depressed market as the dealer was tired of losing even more money paying for the flooring of the vehicle.

If fuel prices increase again, a lot of people are going to wish their trucks and SUVs were fuel-efficient cars. That will drive desperation in the industry as it will in consumers as many consumers will lose even more money by buying a car and many others will be so upside down that they become trapped. Many of the OEMs are prepping for the downturn with layoffs at Ford, GM pulling out of Europe, plant closures, etc. All at a time where many OEMs have bet that the future is trucks and SUVs (see Ford, which will sell only one car nameplate in North America, the Mustang). What happens when truck and SUV sales go back to 2008 levels?

So what does this have to do with guns and mass shootings? Well, in 1994, we got the draconian AWB. That was right after the automotive economy imploded in the early 1990s. We look to be repeating that boom-bust cycle, and people unhappy with their finances tend to support new laws that are supposed to make things better. People are also apt to throw out the current party in power (see 2008 with the Great Recession), which means we may see a President more than willing to use the power of executive orders to ban more items. That does not portend well for the 2nd Amendment.

I'm shopping for a new full size pick up right now. The inventory is very high and only certain body styles are on the lots. When a dealer advertises that they will sell a vehicle at 20% off of MSRP they're in a bind. I think one can be had for 22-25% discount off of MSRP. I'll know more in a few days after I make an offer. I'm within 70 miles of a dozen or more dealers.

[JHC]

I don't care about bump stocks.

Most people don't know what a brace is just like they didn't know what a bump stock was.

Trump isn't looking to save your brace. He's looking to get some traction politically to win the election in 2020. Best way to do that right now is make it appear that he's concerned about the number of mass shootings and he's doing something about it. One easy way to do that is direct the ATF to reverse their decision on braces.

If you think Trump cares about your AR or anything that goes in it or on it you may be in for a yuge surprise. I could give you multiple links regarding the growing pressure on the administration and governors to start restricting things perceived to be a fix but if you have a news feed you already know that.

I'm anticipating magazine restrictions that do not deal with the rifle itself as more "doable" vs the brutal efforts to define military style etc etc.

https://www.mediaite.com/tv/pro-trump-cnn-contributor-lays-out-gun-laws-republicans-in-congress-should-consider-now/

[StraitR]

No.

Bump stocks were not banned because they were deemed an accessory. They are not accessories. They are stocks, and Stocks, by ATF definition are an integral part of the firearm.

Bump stocks were re-classified (again) as “machine guns” just like auto sears, making them subject to the Hughes Amendment.

Then I misunderstood how they pushed that through. Thanks for the clarification.


Legally, bump stocks and braces are two completely different animals.


The other issue is the number of braces /brace firearms out there far exceeds the number of bump stocks. The logistics of banning braces would be a heavy lift.

That's true, but the proposed banning of pistol braces would meet less resistance than magazines, and much less than guns.


ETA: I don't know why it keeps splitting your last quote, but it will not let me fix and save it.

[Borderland]

I'm anticipating magazine restrictions that do not deal with the rifle itself as more "doable" vs the brutal efforts to define military style etc etc.

https://www.mediaite.com/tv/pro-trump-cnn-contributor-lays-out-gun-laws-republicans-in-congress-should-consider-now/

We had a bump stock buyback/ban here before Trump moved on it. We also had an ERPO go into effect over a year ago. We've had a UBC for almost 3 years. I've seen the elephant in the room. Most people are just now waking up to the fact that things are going to change whether they like it or not.

I'm a strong supporter of one's RKBA. I have donated plenty to SAF and until recently, the NRA. These mass shootings is a shit storm in the media and politicians are going to vent the pressure wherever they can. Magazine capacity will eventually be sacrificed. Congress will ban mag capacity again and Trump will sign it. All Trump has to do is signal congress and the GOP will follow thru.

Good link.;)

Add; I think Trump just did signal congress but many won't see that.

[BillSWPA]

I don't care about bump stocks.

Most people don't know what a brace is just like they didn't know what a bump stock was.

Trump isn't looking to save your brace. He's looking to get some traction politically to win the election in 2020. Best way to do that right now is make it appear that he's concerned about the number of mass shootings and he's doing something about it. One easy way to do that is direct the ATF to reverse their decision on braces.

If you think Trump cares about your AR or anything that goes in it or on it you may be in for a yuge surprise. I could give you multiple links regarding the growing pressure on the administration and governors to start restricting things perceived to be a fix but if you have a news feed you already know that.

I cannot understand how trashing Trump brings us closer to our goal. Would you please explain that to me?



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[Borderland]

I cannot understand how trashing Trump brings us closer to our goal. Would you please explain that to me?



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His actions speak louder than his words. That would be true of all politicians.

[GardoneVT]

I cannot understand how trashing Trump brings us closer to our goal. Would you please explain that to me?



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It is not trash to speak the truth, and the truth is Trump acts on what is in Trumps best interest. Right now that’s positioning himself for a successful 2020 campaign. That will not happen if his Democratic challenger successfully convinces voters Trump is impotent or encouraging mass shootings.

If Trump determines a gun law will aid his political prospects he’ll support it. It is time we collectively face the music and realize Trump is no friend of the RKBA.

[TGS]

I'll bet that most of them come from single parent households.

At the risk of being one of "those people" that repeats things from social media without fact checking, I just saw something that stated 26 of the 27 most deadly active shooters were fatherless.

[blues]

It is not trash to speak the truth, and the truth is Trump acts on what is in Trumps best interest. Right now that’s positioning himself for a successful 2020 campaign. That will not happen if his Democratic challenger successfully convinces voters Trump is impotent or encouraging mass shootings.

If Trump determines a gun law will aid his political prospects he’ll support it. It is time we collectively face the music and realize Trump is no friend of the RKBA.

When did anyone believe that? Trump allied himself with that (our) side for political expediency. We allied ourselves with Trump for the same reason.

If and when he drops us, for political expediency, we'll have to find candidates who will support us and our agenda

If we don't, we will lose. It's that simple.

(Yes, there may be, (in my view, misguided), souls who really believe in Trump the man...but I think most of us here made a choice based upon the alternatives.)

[BillSWPA]

It is not trash to speak the truth, and the truth is Trump acts on what is in Trumps best interest. Right now that’s positioning himself for a successful 2020 campaign. That will not happen if his Democratic challenger successfully convinces voters Trump is impotent or encouraging mass shootings.

If Trump determines a gun law will aid his political prospects he’ll support it. It is time we collectively face the music and realize Trump is no friend of the RKBA.

How is that the truth?

Even if it is, then we know how to appeal to Trump.

I prefer to find a path to victory rather than sit back and assume we are screwed.

[ssb]

I'm wondering if the numerical popularity of braces would invoke Miller. They're pretty commonplace these days.

That requires a Supreme Court willing to say they actually meant what they said in Miller. Kavanaugh arguably will vote that way based upon his past decisions. Will Roberts?

It also requires such a case -- whether a brace, a magazine-fed semi-auto, or anything else we commonly use -- being before the Court to decide. And... there isn't one. All we've really got right now is a vessel for the Court to issue a half-baked opinion dealing with an outlier New York law and punt the issue of how they will decide 2A cases and faint hopes that Roberts will agree to explicitly extend the core 2A protections outside the home.

Unfortunately, our court system is dramatically slower to respond to these things than our state legislatures.

[BillSWPA]

Three points of interest in the linked article:

https://www.newsmax.com/newsfront/dayton-ohio-shooting-mass/2019/08/06/id/927481/

1) The shooter was getting violent and threatening towards friends.

2) The shooter talked about shooting up a bar.

3) The shooter was in favor of gun control - more evidence that mass shooters prefer unarmed victims, and that gun control is not the answer.

Trump's focus on mental health rather than gun control is going to be easy for him to support politically in this case.

[Zincwarrior]

At the risk of being one of "those people" that repeats things from social media without fact checking, I just saw something that stated 26 of the 27 most deadly active shooters were fatherless.

I imagine there was a male involved somewhere along the way...

[BillSWPA]

More information about the shooter:

https://www.newsmax.com/newsfront/dayton-massacre-mental-illness-girlfriend/2019/08/06/id/927521/

His idea of impressing a date:

1) Showed body camera footage of a mass shooting (which apparently was the one in the Pittsburgh Tree of Life Synagogue).

2) Asked the girl to accompany him while delivering a threatening letter to an ax girlfriend.

This guy left warning signs all over the place.

[Trukinjp13]

Three points of interest in the linked article:

https://www.newsmax.com/newsfront/dayton-ohio-shooting-mass/2019/08/06/id/927481/

1) The shooter was getting violent and threatening towards friends.

2) The shooter talked about shooting up a bar.

3) The shooter was in favor of gun control - more evidence that mass shooters prefer unarmed victims, and that gun control is not the answer.

Trump's focus on mental health rather than gun control is going to be easy for him to support politically in this case.

I seen a article that stated the Ohio shooter was also anti 2nd amendment and pro gun control.


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[TAZ]

I imagine there was a male involved somewhere along the way...

Being a father takes a bit more than donating some sperm, either directly to the mother or via the scenic route. Same for being a mother. Takes more than just gestating a child and delivering them into the world.

People have abdicated their roles as parents to a huge degree. We now have at least 2 generations who want to be friends first and latest after. Bad stuff happens.

I’d love to see more traditional family structures reinforced, but at the same time I’d settle for people just being parents.

[jtcarm]

That requires a Supreme Court willing to say they actually meant what they said in Miller. Kavanaugh arguably will vote that way based upon his past decisions. Will Roberts?

It also requires such a case -- whether a brace, a magazine-fed semi-auto, or anything else we commonly use -- being before the Court to decide. And... there isn't one. All we've really got right now is a vessel for the Court to issue a half-baked opinion dealing with an outlier New York law and punt the issue of how they will decide 2A cases and faint hopes that Roberts will agree to explicitly extend the core 2A protections outside the home.

Unfortunately, our court system is dramatically slower to respond to these things than our state legislatures.

I wouldn’t trust Roberts to stick to a constructionist philosophy in a high-profile case where doing so might be unpopular.

[LittleLebowski]

Newsletter? For real?

Quoting this.


https://youtu.be/wlMwc1c0HRQ

[JHC]

Quoting this.


https://youtu.be/wlMwc1c0HRQ

Oh wow. This is just like when Stoeger Rick rolled me!

[Lon]

Spoke with one of our Tac medics today. He told me most of the victims were transported to the hospital by Dayton PD and private vehicles. Only 5 by medics. Kudos to DPD, from what I was told they did a hell of a job treating the injured. The ER staff gave them mad props as well:


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=92KfjaEiJGs&feature=youtu.be#menu

[BobM]

Spoke with one of our Tac medics today. He told me most of the victims were transported to the hospital by Dayton PD and private vehicles. Only 5 by medics. Kudos to DPD, from what I was told they did a hell of a job treating the injured. The ER staff gave them mad props as well:


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=92KfjaEiJGs&feature=youtu.be#menu

That's good to hear. I've been to a couple of the OTOA Active Assailant conferences with debriefings by officers, fire personnel, and hospital staff. Incidents reviewed included the Aurora theater, Washington Navy Yard, San Bernardino, Las Vegas, and some school shootings. It seems in a lot of these, LE neutralizes the shooter relatively quickly, then there is significant delay in getting the wounded to the hospital.

[Lon]

That's good to hear. I've been to a couple of the OTOA Active Assailant conferences with debriefings by officers, fire personnel, and hospital staff. Incidents reviewed included the Aurora theater, Washington Navy Yard, San Bernardino, Las Vegas, and some school shootings. It seems in a lot of these, LE neutralizes the shooter relatively quickly, then there is significant delay in getting the wounded to the hospital.

I think you’ll see that start to change. I think many cops have realized it’s quicker to take them to get treatment in the back of a patrol car than wait. Orlando, Aurora, Dayton are just a few places where LE has made transports in mass casualty incidents. The Rescue Task Force concept is good, but still takes a while. I believe we will eventually see the load and go transport by LE become a standard practice and not an improvisation.

[BillSWPA]

I think you’ll see that start to change. I think many cops have realized it’s quicker to take them to get treatment in the back of a patrol car than wait. Orlando, Aurora, Dayton are just a few places where LE has made transports in mass casualty incidents. The Rescue Task Force concept is good, but still takes a while. I believe we will eventually see the load and go transport by LE become a standard practice and not an improvisation.

I hope that proves to be correct. My understanding is that dealing with internal bleeding is one of the biggest factors in surviving or not, and that this is best done at the hospital. So, getting the victims to the hospital as quickly as possible is one of the most important things that can be done for them.

[Beendare]

Absolutely not.

I can’t speak to the Dayton shooter but there is no indication the El Paso shooter is mentally ill by any clinical definition. Like the Sutherland springs shooter and the NZ shooter, he was calm, calculating and efficient. That is simply Evil. Evil exists.
......


Like I say...I dunno...and of course its impossible to put everyone in a neat little box.

Seems to me someone doing this type of thing has to be one (or more) bricks short of a load....but it makes sense there are all types. All I know is its not the guns fault.

[Zincwarrior]

Being a father takes a bit more than donating some sperm, either directly to the mother or via the scenic route. Same for being a mother. Takes more than just gestating a child and delivering them into the world.

People have abdicated their roles as parents to a huge degree. We now have at least 2 generations who want to be friends first and latest after. Bad stuff happens.

I’d love to see more traditional family structures reinforced, but at the same time I’d settle for people just being parents.
I think you missed the joke...:cool:

[ST911]

I think you’ll see that start to change. I think many cops have realized it’s quicker to take them to get treatment in the back of a patrol car than wait. Orlando, Aurora, Dayton are just a few places where LE has made transports in mass casualty incidents. The Rescue Task Force concept is good, but still takes a while. I believe we will eventually see the load and go transport by LE become a standard practice and not an improvisation.

Already started, and in some places a norm for several years. POV and LE transport is a specific instruction point in several curriculums. There can be some teeth grinding from EMS concerned about turf, regulatory worries over "unlicensed ambulances", hand wringing from in-hospital providers and medical directors who just don't understand, and LE admins worried about "liability." It's an easier sell where there are limited resources.

When you have plenty of resources, it doesn't take long to out-bleed the response time or outrun them in numbers. Outside of metros, EMS tends to be dominated by dispersed 1- and 2- bus BLS services, often volunteers, and in a perpetual state of struggle. In most traumas, they aren't providing any services that can't be provided in any other vehicle on the run. That's feels harsh to some, but it's reality.

[willie]

Private for profit companies have operated EMS services in my area since their inception. At one time funeral homes fulfilled this role and several would show up at a wreck to see who could be the first to grab dead or injured. I would not be surprised if EMS companies include in contracts that they and not police transport the injured. Here they do not transport the dead. Another outfit has that contract.

[willie]

We discuss bump stocks and braces and note that Trump banned bump stocks. Among gun owners few complained. Trump will ban braces in the same manner and will suffer no political damage. The meat of the argument for us is magazine restriction. The reason is that restricting magazines is an easier task than banning AR's. I do expect that the purchase age for these will be raised to 21. I would not be surprised if a separate registry for assault rifles is established. Buy one and your name and data are sent to the feds.

In the past, when posting on different forums, that buying more than one handgun from the same dealer within 5 working days requires the dealer to submit this person's name to the ATF's criminal investigation division. The same applies to magazine fed centerfire rifles and short barrel security shotguns when bought in the border states. Immediately dealers would flame my fat ass. It was like I should not have mentioned the subject. Mere mention seemed to be in the same category as asking some man if his 12 year daughter had started her period yet. In every case the thread was closed. I have a point to make. Buy a couple draco's in the same week. You may get a visitor. I have personal knowledge.

At my age I could care less who shows up at my house. I would invite them in for coffee and cake and tell the, that if they did not drink my coffee and eat my cake I would consider them rude and run them off. Anyway I'm lily white in terms of criminal history and possessions. My point is that gun politics is changing. Those who will soon be in charge will not be gun friendly. Federal lists could become shit lists.

[ST911]

Private for profit companies have operated EMS services in my area since their inception. At one time funeral homes fulfilled this role and several would show up at a wreck to see who could be the first to grab dead or injured. I would not be surprised if EMS companies include in contracts that they and not police transport the injured.

Private EMS providers (3rd party corporate or hospital-based) are one of the hurdles with implementation of RTF concepts. They are profit-centered, risk-averse, and lack the statutory and practical protections government services have. Even if there is support from the local providers and shop managers, they are too far from the flagpole to be persuasive.

Policy construction for non-EMS agencies is important. Something like this usually works for LE: "Officers should not transport the sick or injured, or direct the transport of the sick or injured, unless waiting for EMS would be reasonably expected to result in death of the patient. "

[Kirk]

In the past, when posting on different forums, that buying more than one handgun from the same dealer within 5 working days requires the dealer to submit this person's name to the ATF's criminal investigation division.

This is interesting to me, as I've bought more than 1 handgun numerous times from FFL dealers. Hell, I don't ever buy only 1 handgun at a time, as I usually buy at least 2 with 1 being a backup. In fact, I was about to buy 3 M&P 2.0 Compacts at once, as I'm working with S&W to get the 2.0 compact on the USPSA production list. Is this something I should be concerned about in some way? I couldn't really care less if I get an inquiry from the ATF, as I've done nothing wrong, but don't want to end up on some weird list

[willie]

Kirk, I can't say whether or not you should be concerned, but will ask a rhetorical question. Do you wish to continue having your name sent to the ATF criminal division where your name and purchases will remain forever? Reading and studying the public information on this subject revealed that when the guns on this list show up as having been used in a crime, then the purchaser is looked at for his role.

If you wish to buy two or more handguns, your dealer will be happy to hold one until the required number of working days has passed. It is called lay-a-way. You might ask your dealer why he has not informed you about the notification rule. I have noticed that even the most vociferous fist pounding 2A dealers will become defensive when this topic is presented. I enjoy needling them. Dealers on gun forums shit on themselves when this topic arises. I must cease commenting to prevent being accused of trolling.

To answer your question about your having anything to worry about, I will change my first comment. Instead of saying that I can't say whether or not you have reason for concern, I will say that you do not. The however follow up comment is to write that you may wish to delay a second purchase. My FUDD opinion is that times are changing; that gun ownership is continuing to become socially unacceptable and that this rate is increasing; that a new set of leaders will soon be in charge; and none of us can predict the future. If I were a young man, I would avoid having my name on any list. Growing up I witnessed local and state governments participating to some extent in terrorism. The FBI closed one eye. In general I lack faith in government. My entire life I worked government jobs. Lacking faith is not the same thing as being paranoid. I write from what I know. I repeat the question. Why put one's name on a list when he or she can wait a few days and avoid the list?

[GardoneVT]

I repeat the question. Why put one's name on a list when he or she can wait a few days and avoid the list?

Not the OP, but I’ll note there is no practical way to avoid “the list”.

If the Govermment (whoever you associate that to be ) wanted to know who likely owns guns, they could simply ask the Federal Reserve to request from all FDIC banks a list of transactions involving firearm related merchants in a given period of time. Unless you’re trading ammo on the barter system, best of luck staying off that list.

[willie]

I'm already on various lists because of the number of times that I have been finger printed in addition to having made multiple handgun purchases. My comment about lists was not addressing who owned guns. The point was being on a list maintained by the criminal investigation division of a federal agency.

[Kirk]

Not the OP, but I’ll note there is no practical way to avoid “the list”.

If the Govermment (whoever you associate that to be ) wanted to know who likely owns guns, they could simply ask the Federal Reserve to request from all FDIC banks a list of transactions involving firearm related merchants in a given period of time. Unless you’re trading ammo on the barter system, best of luck staying off that list.

I totally understand that, I just wanted to make sure I didn't end up on some type of watch list due to buying a few guns at a time for USPSA :D.

[the Schwartz]

I totally understand that, I just wanted to make sure I didn't end up on some type of watch list due to buying a few guns at a time for USPSA :D.

To be honest, I am quite sure that we are all on some list somewhere and for no reason other than we have bought one, or many , guns.

[fly out]

I apologize for the drift, but hey, it's P-F.

The form for two or more handguns goes to ATF, and to your chief local law enforcement official. I'm sure the CLEO loves it, because they inherit the semi-annual obligation to certify to ATF that they haven't improperly disseminated the information, and that they've appropriately destroyed the reports.

Note that the "business days" is the FFL's business days (i.e., the days listed as business days with ATF). A kitchen table FFL who lists "Wednesday from 5-6pm" as his business hours will take more than a month to age out of the multiple-transfers notice, because he only has one business day per week. (That's not a legal opinion...that's just what I believe to be true.)

Back to your regularly-scheduled programming.

[willie]

On the noon news Trump announced he would propose a plan for additional gun control whether or not the NRA is on board. One video of Mitch M showed that he chimed in. I predict executive orders pertaining to red flags, background rhetoric, and sale of magazines exceeding 10 rounds capacity. Possibly assault rifles will be given the 21 year old age requirement for purchasing. He may restrict assault rifle sales between individuals. I think he will seek public approval by claiming he is taking emergency action until Congress can act. If he bans assault rifle sales until Congress has acted, he would have accomplished: gaining public approval; providing a framework for legislation in the immediate future; screwing dealers and distributors with assault rifles in stock; and establishing himself(in his mind)that he is responsible for sensible and long needed regulation.

[BillSWPA]

Most likely, we are looking at red flag laws and more background check requirements.

Pennsylvania is generally a very gun-friendly state, but we already have a requirement that all transfers go through a licensed dealer, unless the transfer is between husband and wife, parent and child, or grandparent and child.

I do not see Trump or most other Republicans alienating their base by pushing for magazine capacity limits or anything similar.

For better or worse, one of the realities we have to deal with is that there really are people out there who should not have guns.

[Crow Hunter]

On the noon news Trump announced he would propose a plan for additional gun control whether or not the NRA is on board. One video of Mitch M showed that he chimed in. I predict executive orders pertaining to red flags, background rhetoric, and sale of magazines exceeding 10 rounds capacity. Possibly assault rifles will be given the 21 year old age requirement for purchasing. He may restrict assault rifle sales between individuals. I think he will seek public approval by claiming he is taking emergency action until Congress can act. If he bans assault rifle sales until Congress has acted, he would have accomplished: gaining public approval; providing a framework for legislation in the immediate future; screwing dealers and distributors with assault rifles in stock; and establishing himself(in his mind)that he is responsible for sensible and long needed regulation.

Got a link or anything to that?

I am not seeing it when I search for it other than just some stuff said yesterday and early this morning.

Surely his advisors have told him that he risks alienating a large portion of his voting base and an even bigger group once they figure out that an "assault weapon" is something they own and not a machine gun.

[Zincwarrior]

Most likely, we are looking at red flag laws and more background check requirements.

Pennsylvania is generally a very gun-friendly state, but we already have a requirement that all transfers go through a licensed dealer, unless the transfer is between husband and wife, parent and child, or grandparent and child.

I do not see Trump or most other Republicans alienating their base by pushing for magazine capacity limits or anything similar.

For better or worse, one of the realities we have to deal with is that there really are people out there who should not have guns.

How do transfers work there? Sorry if this sounds like a stupid question.

[BillSWPA]

How do transfers work there? Sorry if this sounds like a stupid question.

The only stupid question is the one not asked.

If a buyer and seller want to make a private transfer, they bring the gun to a dealer. The dealer then has the buyer fill out the federal and state forms, and performs the instant background check. The gun is then officially transferred from the seller to the dealer and then to the buyer. The buyer pays about a $25 fee for the check.

At gun shows, the state police have a table set up for performing background checks.

[Totem Polar]

Y’know, this next comment is going way off topic, but:

In similar fashion to the issues that arise when LE only resorts to force late in the game—thus requiring a shitload more force to control a situation—I had the thought this morning over coffee that a lot of what’s been lost in our current "zero-tolerance culture" is early correction of these losers.

When I was in high school, back in the dark ages, people who stepped too far out of societal norms got a friendly educational beat down. if someone had sent a "rape list" to a girl in our high school, the wrestling team would have found the dude and administered correction, accompanied by the rockers, and possibly a stoner or two. I can think of a couple of people who—in hindsight—could have gone down a really dark road if left alone, that got some public remediation on the front landing of the school. These were guys who had all the shitty homelife circumstances of today's kids, minus the ‘script drugs. Might sound strange, but, a good whipping shows that your peers care about your behavior. That’s missing in today’s climate.

If these young men are allowed to "get away with it" for all their formative years, that may well be one causal factor that has yet to be widely explored.

JMO.

[blues]

Absolutely, Sidhe.

However, nowadays if you look cross-eyed at someone it may scar them for life.

Forget about that my parents would have been doing life without the possibility of parole.

Speaking about educational beat downs, back in my teen years, the NYPD were not reluctant to go hands on and administer a little justice as needed. Wiseasses included. Don't ask me how I know.

[RoyGBiv]

If these young men are allowed to "get away with it" for all their formative years, that may well be one causal factor that has yet to be widely explored.

JMO.

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?20555-The-Educational-Beat-Down

[willie]

No link to Trumps announcement. I saw it on TV news and don't recall network.

[Zincwarrior]

The only stupid question is the one not asked.

If a buyer and seller want to make a private transfer, they bring the gun to a dealer. The dealer then has the buyer fill out the federal and state forms, and performs the instant background check. The gun is then officially transferred from the seller to the dealer and then to the buyer. The buyer pays about a $25 fee for the check.

At gun shows, the state police have a table set up for performing background checks.

Thank you. That appears like a workable solution.

[DC_P]

If these young men are allowed to "get away with it" for all their formative years, that may well be one causal factor that has yet to be widely explored.


Nailed it. Now it would be the people administering the needed corrections who were the bad guys for not letting the future nut case express himself freely.

[HCM]

I’m still wanting to know the apparent motive here.

The fact that his sister and his “male companion” were among those shot is interesting. His prophet was present in the area but not among the injured.

Were they down there looking for him, trying to stop him from doing something ?

[mmc45414]

I’m still wanting to know the apparent motive here.

The fact that his sister and his “male companion” were among those shot is interesting. His prophet was present in the area but not among the injured.

Were they down there looking for him, trying to stop him from doing something ?

As I stated up thread (I think...) I can not be convinced that his sister, and the group he had been with, were not targets. Though it sure sounds like he had been looking for an excuse for a number of years.

I thought Donut Oprrator did a pretty good breakdown on the sequence of events. He went from the car back to that specific bar, passing up on plenty of people in the process, and some probably more popular, densely populated bars.

And while I am local, I have no specific knowledge of the events, am only very familiar with the area from spending a whole lotta time there, mostly in the past, but as recently as celebrating my 60th a few months ago at an event we hosted at the Oregon Express.

I did hear something from a friend of a friend that just maybe the 12g can still TCB.


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[HCM]

As I stated up thread (I think...) I can not be convinced that his sister, and the group he had been with, were not targets. Though it sure sounds like he had been looking for an excuse for a number of years.

I thought Donut Oprrator did a pretty good breakdown on the sequence of events. He went from the car back to that specific bar, passing up on plenty of people in the process, and some probably more popular, densely populated bars.

And while I am local, I have no specific knowledge of the events, am only very familiar with the area from spending a whole lotta time there, mostly in the past, but as recently as celebrating my 60th a few months ago at an event we hosted at the Oregon Express.

I did hear something from a friend of a friend that just maybe the 12g can still TCB.


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So guess my question is did he go looking for them or were they looking for him ?

[mmc45414]

So guess my question is did he go looking for them or were they looking for him ?My understanding and speculation is that they were partying together, something musta triggered him to do what he had been planning to do for years (probably packing his gear with him all the time) and he went back and found the group he had been hanging with and killed his sister and shot her companion. If all he was intent on doing was killing people he would have walked past a shitload of them to get back to his sister.

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[OlongJohnson]

The only stupid question is the one not asked.

If a buyer and seller want to make a private transfer, they bring the gun to a dealer. The dealer then has the buyer fill out the federal and state forms, and performs the instant background check. The gun is then officially transferred from the seller to the dealer and then to the buyer. The buyer pays about a $25 fee for the check.

At gun shows, the state police have a table set up for performing background checks.

I presume the background check is performed by the state, rather than the FBI, in that case (also consistent with the State 5-0 being on hand and doing the checks at shows).

I remember a few years ago when Nevada passed a UBC bill that required FFLs to do the FBI check for private transfers. It ended up dying on the vine because the FBI refused to spend resources doing background checks that weren't required under federal law. The argument was that the state couldn't unilaterally impose a burden on the superior (Federal) governmental organization, especially without providing some compensation for the cost of carrying it out. It ended up being a bit of a "neener-neener" to the gun grabbers, that one time. On the other hand, if Federal law changes to require 4473s and FBI checks for all transfers, they'll just have to figure out how to sell some more bonds for our great grandchildren to pay back and spend the money to make it happen.

[TGS]

I presume the background check is performed by the state, rather than the FBI, in that case (also consistent with the State 5-0 being on hand and doing the checks at shows).

I remember a few years ago when Nevada passed a UBC bill that required FFLs to do the FBI check for private transfers. It ended up dying on the vine because the FBI refused to spend resources doing background checks that weren't required under federal law. The argument was that the state couldn't unilaterally impose a burden on the superior (Federal) governmental organization, especially without providing some compensation for the cost of carrying it out. It ended up being a bit of a "neener-neener" to the gun grabbers, that one time. On the other hand, if Federal law changes to require 4473s and FBI checks for all transfers, they'll just have to figure out how to sell some more bonds for our great grandchildren to pay back and spend the money to make it happen.

AFAIK all NICS checks are performed by the respective state. The FBI does not participate in any part of the process other than maintaining the database.

ETA: Derp. Just looked it up, yeah, apparently NICS does service direct for 30 states. That surprised me.

[OlongJohnson]

My understanding is that generally, the states that have their own system in place are allowed to use it rather than the FBI system. The FBI system is provided for those states that do not have their own system. TX FFLs call the FBI, unless you have an LTC. Then, the system relies on the state's checking in the process of issuing the LTC (which includes fingerprints, so it's a lot more thorough).

[HCM]

My understanding is that generally, the states that have their own system in place are allowed to use it rather than the FBI system. The FBI system is provided for those states that do not have their own system. TX FFLs call the FBI, unless you have an LTC. Then, the system relies on the state's checking in the process of issuing the LTC (which includes fingerprints, so it's a lot more thorough).

Hence the problem with Alabama Sheriffs issuing CCW licenses without proper background checks.

[Yung]

Thank you. That appears like a workable solution.

I apologize if I sound rude or obtuse, but I'm not sure how exactly that is supposed to be a private transfer.

Here in Arizona, there are some buyers and/or sellers that prefer to have both parties fill out and sign a bill of sale that has names and contact information on it. Other folks just want to visually confirm Arizona identification and maybe a CCW permit. These are optional for peace of mind and not required, however.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Friend arrested for lying about drug usage when buying a gun. Also took drug with killer and buying parts for the killer’s gun and the hundred round mag.

[mmc45414]

Friend arrested for lying about drug usage when buying a gun. Also took drug with killer and buying parts for the killer’s gun and the hundred round mag.
But not sure they actually arrested him for anything specific to the crime. He bought the magazine and stashed it so the shithead's PARENTS wouldn't know, but it is my understanding the shithead bought his own gun.

They arrested him for being in possession of another gun and obviously being a doper. They might be putting that on him while they decide if conspiracy might stick, though.

[11B10]

[QUOTE=GardoneVT;912947]......if his Democratic challenger successfully convinces voters...


GardoneVT - forgive me for editing your post, but I have yet to see/read - or even hear about - any Democratic challenger convincing anyONE about anyTHING.

[11B10]

If anyone has just started reading this thread, please go back and read posts 187 & 188.

Both authors are experienced and know what they're talking about.

[Lester Polfus]

I have to fly, and don't have time to look up the reference, but I read that they arrested stoner dude for lying on the 4473.

He admitted he'd smoked MJ for years. So they pulled his 4473. He obviously marked "no" to the question about using MJ, so that was part of what they arrested him for.

[mmc45414]

I have to fly, and don't have time to look up the reference, but I read that they arrested stoner dude for lying on the 4473.
Yes, but not for a straw purchase of the murder weapon, just an unrelated handgun he had sitting in sight (probably next to his bong):
https://www.whio.com/news/local/friend-oregon-district-shooter-face-federal-weapons-charge/QzDOWRUSXxTN4C8Gc5dswK/

Ethan Kollie, 24, of Kettering, was arrested Friday night in Beavercreek on suspicion of a firearms violation unrelated to the Oregon District shooting, according to Montgomery County Jail records and an unsealed complaint signed by a federal agent.

[Duke]

. Betts wielded a semi-automatic pistol that police say was modified to act like a rifle

You read it there. Pistol had a mind of its own - and it took up acting


This shit makes me feel the same way as Ballons at a new dealer..... I’m not fucking 6 years old. Let’s cut the crap