Preferred load for snubnose 38?

[Gray Ghost]

Inspired by the other thread, I am curious what folks carry in their J-frames and other snubnose .38 S&W Special revolvers. I will admit that I have typically given it much less thought than the ammo I choose for my 9mm and .45 ACP carry guns. My thinking has been that I am unlikely to get enough velocity for reliable expansion anyway, so it doesn't matter too much.

As I think about it now, this is foolish. Aside from expansion, things like optimal bullet weight, flash in low light, and ease of case extraction (e.g. nickel versus brass), all matter.

I have been vaguely thinking about experimenting with hand loads using various powders and bullets to see what kind of results I can get on the chrono, but it has not yet become a priority.

What loads do others carry in their snubbies?

[ACP230]

Speer 135 grain JHPs. The "short barrel" load.

[blues]

Winchester Ranger Bonded RA38B, 130 gr +P JHP in a S&W 642-1

[SAWBONES]

JMHO:

First priority is that POI should equal POA for whatever distance you could reasonably anticipate shooting to.
Everything else is secondary, including bullet type, bullet weight, muzzle flash & case material.

Then, whatever is on Doc's list for .38 Special that fits that above condition, is good.

My own experience is that Speer's Gold Dot .38 Special+P 135gr JHP Short Barrel load has the best precision and accuracy in my alloy frame S&W snubs, in my hands.

[camsdaddy]

I use Precision Delta wadcutters. I find them accurate from contact to 25 yards and are soft enough and cheap enough I order them buy the case. Due to the accuracy, price, and reliability I no longer load 38. I limit shooting my airweight to 100 rounds a week. When I leave the range I load the last five in the box. When I get to the range I shoot the rounds I am carrying. I am sure I should have better reasons but I don't know what they would be.

A friend gave me some 130 HST that I will try.

[Gray Ghost]

I use Precision Delta wadcutters. I find them accurate from contact to 25 yards and are soft enough and cheap enough I order them buy the case. Due to the accuracy, price, and reliability I no longer load 38. I limit shooting my airweight to 100 rounds a week. When I leave the range I load the last five in the box. When I get to the range I shoot the rounds I am carrying. I am sure I should have better reasons but I don't know what they would be.

A friend gave me some 130 HST that I will try.

Thanks. What are your thoughts on reloads? Back when I had more free time and used to shot IDPA, I found that wadcutters were very slow to reload in a revolver because the shape of the bullet, which was pretty much all inside he case, did not lend itself to getting the speedloader aligned with the cylinder. Is there a trick to this?

[03RN]

130gr Winchester Rangers +p

2" barrel, 25 yards
40714

[ST911]

What loads do others carry in their snubbies?

http://www.black-hills.com/shop/honeybadger/38-special-honeybadgerp/

[Gray Ghost]

http://www.black-hills.com/shop/honeybadger/38-special-honeybadgerp/



That certainly looks interesting. They claims 1275 fps on the website. It would be interesting to see what kind of velocity you actually get out of a 2" barrel. I highly doubt it is anywhere near that, but if it is, count me in.

ETA: If nobody knows, I am wiling to order a box and test it over a chrono. Maybe benchmark against the Winchester and Speer loads than have been suggested.

[Dave T]

That certainly looks interesting. They claims 1275 fps on the website. It would be interesting to see what kind of velocity you actually get out of a 2" barrel. I highly doubt it is anywhere near that, but if it is, count me in.

Velocity does not correlate directly with the ability to stop. Adequate penetration and rapid blood loss are the primary factors. And...there is no magic bullet!

Dave

[spinmove_]

Federal Gold Medal Match Wadcutters. They shoot to the sights and are easy on my hands.


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[Norville]

Winchester Ranger Bonded RA38B, 130 gr +P JHP in a S&W 642-1

These, in a 340 M&P.

[ST911]

That certainly looks interesting. They claims 1275 fps on the website. It would be interesting to see what kind of velocity you actually get out of a 2" barrel. I highly doubt it is anywhere near that, but if it is, count me in.

ETA: If nobody knows, I am wiling to order a box and test it over a chrono. Maybe benchmark against the Winchester and Speer loads than have been suggested.

It's about 1000fps from a snub.

[camsdaddy]

Thanks. What are your thoughts on reloads? Back when I had more free time and used to shot IDPA, I found that wadcutters were very slow to reload in a revolver because the shape of the bullet, which was pretty much all inside he case, did not lend itself to getting the speedloader aligned with the cylinder. Is there a trick to this?

My reloads are slow anyway. I load from strips and practice but do not feel confident that I would be able to reload during a fight. I have reloads in hopes of having a loaded gun while waiting on the police to arrive.


That certainly looks interesting. They claims 1275 fps on the website. It would be interesting to see what kind of velocity you actually get out of a 2" barrel. I highly doubt it is anywhere near that, but if it is, count me in.

ETA: If nobody knows, I am wiling to order a box and test it over a chrono. Maybe benchmark against the Winchester and Speer loads than have been suggested.


It's about 1000fps from a snub.

I dont want to shoot these through a snub and certainly not through an airweight.

[Hi-Point Aficionado]

I ran standard pressure Buffalo Bore 158 grain LSWC-HC in my model 36. Reload consited of whatever proven round nose or seni-wadcutter proved reliable in ignition and hit to point of aim for smoother speedloader use. Not the LSWC-HC because the expose nose crushed easily.

In a lighter gun, I'd have run Federal Gold Medal Match 248 grain wadcutter and same idea behind reloads. Currently buying a box of the Federal here and there to build up a stock should I ever go back to a .38 snub. Have no interest in +P through a J-frame but my 10-11 does well with Remington Golden Saber so some is kept on hand for that with reload of same in a 2x2x2 pouch and speedloader in case I ever decide to press an AIWB and carry it.

[RJ]

Federal Gold Medal Match Wadcutters. They shoot to the sights and are easy on my hands.



Me as well.

[Gray Ghost]

I dont want to shoot these through a snub and certainly not through an airweight.

So this stuff is not cheap. Midway has the loaded ammo at $66 for a box of 50.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1017629173?pid=223068

They also have the Lehigh Defense bullets, unloaded, at $33 for a box of 50.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1018300681?pid=905559


That is about what I expect to pay for high-end, monometal rifle bullets.

[Malamute]

So this stuff is not cheap. Midway has the loaded ammo at $66 for a box of 50.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1017629173?pid=223068...



https://ammoseek.com/ammo/38-special/Federal-handgun-148grains-

Midway has decent prices and sales on some stuff, other things they have are definitely out in WTF territory.

[MolonLabe416]

Federal Gold Medal Match Wadcutters or BB HC wadcutters. Speedstrip has any one of a number of 125-135 grain JHPs depending on what I have on hand.

[fatdog]

Corbon DPX +P in the guns rated to handle it and the Buffallo Bore standard pressure loading of the same Barnes bullet in those older snubs where I want to spare them the +P rounds. Both have been reasonably close POA/POI in my Colts and Smiths and they are not too punishing.

[deputyG23]

Winchester Ranger 38B in a 442-2 for me.

[nalesq]

For the snub, I normally carry 115gr Corbon DPX all-copper HPs, but they are apparently out of production, and I’m down to my last box. Once those are gone, I’ll probably go to Federal Gold Medal match wadcutters for the cylinder, and some pointy JHP for the reload.

A neighbor recently gifted me with a couple boxes of 125 gr Federal Nyclads, though. The projectiles are a pretty blue color with a gaping cavity and they are as mild as wadcutters to shoot, which is nice, but I am vaguely concerned they won’t penetrate very well and will get me “killed in the streets” if I depend on them for defensive use.

Does anyone have an informed opinion on the quality of the terminal performance of the Nyclads?


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[ST911]

I dont want to shoot these through a snub and certainly not through an airweight.

I've shot a bunch through Js and LCRs. Recoil is no greater than Speer 135 or the Corbon 110 DPX. It also has a different feel which some may perceive as a little less recoil. Also, very little muzzle flash.



For the snub, I normally carry 115gr Corbon DPX all-copper HPs, but they are apparently out of production, and I’m down to my last box.

They are open again under new ownership, you may want to call and check product availability. No info on performance of current production.

You may also want to check which 110 DPX you have. Corbon stopped using the Barnes bullet several years ago and developed variations of their own bullet.

[O4L]

Speer 135 grain JHPs. The "short barrel" load.Same for me.

[TGS]

Same as blues and some others: Winchester Ranger 130gr Bonded JHP, product code RA38B. Decision making on that one: it was available and the Speer SB load wasn't, and both are on Doc's list.

Keep in mind that wadcutters are okay on an unobstructed target. Add an intermediate barrier and wadcutters quickly turn into a shredded ball of suck. They're the preferred option if you simply can't carry anything else due to recoil sensitivity, not the best option overall.

[Nightvisionary]

Federal 130 grain HST offer near perfect performance. I recently shot these into Clear Ballistics gel from 10 feet. The 38 Special 130 Grain HST+P are in the lower right corner. As I recall penetration was right at 12 inches with expansion that I have never seen from any other 38 Special snubnose load. The two rounds were fired from a Ruger LCR.



40742

[CWM11B]

+P rated guns-Speer 135 gr GDHP
non +P rated- Federal GMM 148 gr WC

[RevolverRob]

Frankly, I had to open the safe and look at the box to figure out what I had in the gun. I just know it shoots POA. I bought whatever was available at GT Distributors last time I was home in Dallas. It turns out to be 135-grain Speed Gold Dot Short Barrel. Though I have carried probably all of the major .38 special loads and shot them all too.

Gel and real world testing has sort of borne out that no load is particularly great from a 2" .38 special and because you're dealing with a low capacity arm, accuracy needs to be on your side. So, whatever you choose, it should hit to the sights out to 20-25 yards without a problem.

I do agree with TGS that most soft wadcutters are garbage through auto glass. And remember these days, that we are increasingly seeing laminated glass being used in side windows of cars. Meaning barrier penetration may become more of an issue, not less. If you're going to carry a wadcutter, I'd consider the hard cast 150-grain from Buffalo Bore or a plated wadcutter like those made by Berry's. Both will hold together better through barriers, but of course, neither are as good as a properly bonded HP (GD or Ranger) or monolithic bullet (Barnes or Lehigh).

Jury is out on The HST. That is a round I really want to love in .38, but the test so far hasn't encouraged me to bother picking any up. I just don't see where it is offering much advantage (if any) over Winchester Ranger or Speer GD SB.

[1911Nut]

Buffalo Bore Item 20C Factory 158 Gr. SWCHP. Soft alloy. Really expands, but leads the gun barrel . Very accurate with a MV of 835 FPS from a 1 7/8" barrel

For a practice load and one that doesn't lead up the barrel, I use an Oregon Trail laser cast 158 Gr. SWC. Also very accurate and replicates the MV of the Buffalo Bore load. MV is 827 FPS from a 1 7/8" barrel.

Both these loads hit to exactly the same POI at 15 yards.

[TGS]

And remember these days, that we are increasingly seeing laminated glass being used in side windows of cars. Meaning barrier penetration may become more of an issue, not less.

That's a good note; laminated side glass is now mandatory on all new production vehicles.

[RevolverRob]

FYI - if anyone is looking for a monolithic design - I see Underwood is now loading the Lehigh 100-grain “extreme defender” bullet in non +P form. In +P form folks are seeing 17-18” of penetration in clear gel from a 2” gun. The non +P is only 100 fps slower, so I expect about 15-17” in clear gel. Corrected to organic 10% gel that puts penetration right in the mark 12-15” from a 2” revolver. The concern here is light for caliber bullet. I’ve seen a lot of Lehigh end up turned around in gel blocks. I would be concerned laminated glass could deflect the bullet. But it shouldn’t be as bad as a WC.

Buffalo Bore is also loading the 110-grain barnes bullet in a non +P format.

I bring these options up for folks who are running non +P rated guns and might need barrier penetration. With the Lehigh you will likely get good penetration, but obviously no expansion. The Barnes bullet Seems to give 11-13” of penetration from a 2” gun, but also good expansion, even through denim. Something we expect given the monolithic design of the bullet.

[03RN]

As disappointing as the .38 HST is, I'm looking forward to a .357 loaded to the golden sabers or critical duty type load(125-135@1250fps)

[TGS]

Federal 130 grain HST offer near perfect performance. I recently shot these into Clear Ballistics gel from 10 feet. The 38 Special 130 Grain HST+P are in the lower right corner. As I recall penetration was right at 12 inches with expansion that I have never seen from any other 38 Special snubnose load. The two rounds were fired from a Ruger LCR.


That's cute and all, but it doesn't mean anything.

You should probably do more reading and stop wasting your money on clear gel. From the horses mouth:


As noted, put garbage in, you get garbage out....

Believe what you want, yet it is pretty simple (as reflected in my sig line below); if synthetic tissue simulant was so great, then major USG, DOD, LE, and medical research institutions would be using it--yet NONE do so, as the synthetics are NOT accurate or relevant to what is seen in real world GSW's.

[RevolverRob]

12" in clear gel for HST from an LCR? Yikes. (I have Nightvisonary on Ignore, so I didn't realize what his post said until TGS quoted it).

Clear gel usually shows over-penetration compared to proper 10% ordnance gel. The correction factor I've seen is 30% reduced penetration in ordnance gel compared to clear. So...that's a disturbing 8" of penetration? Man that's bad.

I'd carry the old Hydrashok +P before I went HST then.

(FYI I am in no way disputing Doc's expertise in this matter. Comparing same bullets at similar velocities, clear gel is basically good for assessing maximum penetration, the end. And it seems that penetration is about 30% higher in clear vs. organic on average)

ETA: For folks who might be in need, Speer is still running their rebates on Gold Dot defensive ammo. Only on the 20-round boxes, unfortunately, but it's $5/box back with a minimum of 2 boxes and max of 10. I see TargetSports has 20-round boxes of GD Short Barrel in stock for ~$18.40/box before the rebate. If I do my math right that's roughly 66 cents/round pretty close to the 50-round box price (if you can find those boxes in stock) at 0.60/round. I see SGAmmo has the old paper 20-round boxes for $15.95/each that works out to 0.55/round (IF those boxes are eligible for the rebate, I'm not sure if they are you may want to check with Speer/Vista Outdoors).

[Nightvisionary]

That's cute and all, but it doesn't mean anything.

You should probably do more reading and stop wasting your money on clear gel. From the horses mouth:

Meh, I don't have a lab or anyone to pay for my gel. Clear Gel does what I need it to do. I prefer to shoot more and read less. Carry whatever you want, it really makes no difference to me. If you have some ballistic gelatin tests to share for the 130 HST I would love to see it.

[jtcarm]

Federal Gold Medal Match Wadcutters. They shoot to the sights and are easy on my hands.


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Same here in my gun. Remington 158 SWCHP +P in my speed loader or strip. WCs are kinda hard for a speed reload.

An HP may or may not expand. A wadcutter will cut a .357 hole every time and give good penetration.

[Baldanders]

At the moment, I have 125 grain +p Gold Dots in the 640, but I plan to switch to 135 grain SB Dots this week in .38 or .357 after seeing how they do in some backyard shooting.

I bought a box of 129 grain hydra shok before I knew they basically don't expand. I think I will shoot milk jugs with this load in my M94 to see if they will expand under 100% ideal conditions.

I used to carry 110 grain Critical Defense, but I started to worry about the performance of anything tbat light and slow. The +p load was completely indistinguishable from the standard pressure load in terms of recoil. From the chronograph data on the web, looks there is a 30 fps difference in velocities.

As long as it penetrates, I`m fine with it. (Which is why I carried .357 Critical Duty for a time, but my hands don't need that sort of abuse. Still far superior to dealing with 125 grain Remington. 357 SJHP in the same gun. It's like getting hit with a baton strike to the palm.)

[jtcarm]

Thanks. What are your thoughts on reloads? Back when I had more free time and used to shot IDPA, I found that wadcutters were very slow to reload in a revolver because the shape of the bullet, which was pretty much all inside he case, did not lend itself to getting the speedloader aligned with the cylinder. Is there a trick to this?

Besides chamfering the chamber mouths and lots of practice, there’s no tricks I know of. PPC shooters might know some

I run RN handloads in IDPA. I carry loaded with Federal GM WCs and Remington 158 LSWCHPs +P for a reload. The Remington round shows some expansion in gel, not spectacular.

[TGS]

If you have some ballistic gelatin tests to share for the 130 HST I would love to see it.

It would just so happen that such is available right here at P-F.com.....

38 Special HST 130gr+P in Organic Gel (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?29816-38-Special-HST-130gr-P-in-Organic-Gel)

TL;DR:

It performs marginal in bare gel, which in the grand scheme of .38 snubnoses is actually pretty good.....but it absolutely sucks at the windshield test, which as a whole is a much more important and telling testing regimen than bare gel.

Comparatively, you could buy the 135gr Gold Dot or 130gr Bonded Ranger and have acceptable performance all around (as well as a round that is easier to reload under stress due to a conical projectile).

Clear gel tests are good for feelz, that's about it.


(Which is why I carried .357 Critical Duty for a time, but my hands don't need that sort of abuse. Still far superior to dealing with 125 grain Remington. 357 SJHP in the same gun. It's like getting hit with a baton strike to the palm.)

Probably the most accurate and relatable description I've ever read of how shooting these guns can feel.

[Dagga Boy]

Before we lose context here, define YOUR mission. I carry wadcutters in my Airweight and Airlight Guns. I am a very retired cop and basically an armed joe at this point. My need for windshield and barrier penetration in my J frame is not a priority at all. For a law enforcement officer dealing with vehicle bound criminals or when I am working protection details where protecting my client while in a vehicle and attacked (and I just had this happen recently and very successfully dealt with it), then barrier penetration is important. We have some very solid testing protocols out there and available for folks to use to pick a proper bullet for THEIR needs and mission. For me, four layer denim is what I am looking at for most applications these days.

[Totem Polar]

or when I am working protection details where protecting my client while in a vehicle and attacked (and I just had this happen recently and very successfully dealt with it)

Can you share more detail? Maybe in another thread?

[RJ]

Before we lose context here, define YOUR mission. I carry wadcutters in my Airweight and Airlight Guns. I am a very retired cop and basically an armed joe at this point. My need for windshield and barrier penetration in my J frame is not a priority at all. For a law enforcement officer dealing with vehicle bound criminals or when I am working protection details where protecting my client while in a vehicle and attacked (and I just had this happen recently and very successfully dealt with it), then barrier penetration is important. We have some very solid testing protocols out there and available for folks to use to pick a proper bullet for THEIR needs and mission. For me, four layer denim is what I am looking at for most applications these days.

Thanks DB. I was thinking how to articulate this question (does the typical armed civilian need to worry about barrier penetration) and that was very helpful.

I was going to maybe order some RA38 but I think I'll go back to making sure my PoI = PoA with the Federal Gold Medal WCs, as far as I can reliably do with my LCR.

[03RN]

I like carrying bullets that perform well around barriers. I'm in my car and around cars a lot.

We've had roadblocks here in RI set by either black lives matter or antifa. Alone, I have no problem avoiding any conflict. With my 1 year old strapped in my car I may very well not be able to.

[BehindBlueI's]

Winchester PDX-1 +P. I think they are the same as the Ranger bonded.

I'm required by work policy to carry expanding ammo or I'd probably just go with wadcutters.

[Dagga Boy]

Can you share more detail? Maybe in another thread?

I really wish I could because there was a lot of solid learning points available, but I also have something that seems to be lost today and that is that non disclosure agreements and client confidentiality are still important to me.

[Dagga Boy]

I like carrying bullets that perform well around barriers. I'm in my car and around cars a lot.

We've had roadblocks here in RI set by either black lives matter or antifa. Alone, I have no problem avoiding any conflict. With my 1 year old strapped in my car I may very well not be able to.

I am in and around cars a lot as well. It is why I like the combination of an AIWB semi auto and a pocket snub. In the vehicle, the pocket snub is not the go to. With that said, you need to really think about why you would be shooting out of a vehicle through glass, or into a vehicle through glass as a private citizen. In Texas, I have not reached deadly force until someone attempts to remove me from my vehicle. So until that happens or we have someone shooting into my vehicle from the outside barrier penetration for my pocket gun that is there to remove people from me at contact or near contact distance is not my priority. Also, as a private citizen facing someone firing into your car or threatening it, I like the ballistics that are measured in tons combined with velocity measured in miles per hour.

[WobblyPossum]

Meh, I don't have a lab or anyone to pay for my gel. Clear Gel does what I need it to do. I prefer to shoot more and read less. Carry whatever you want, it really makes no difference to me. If you have some ballistic gelatin tests to share for the 130 HST I would love to see it.

At the risk of taking us slightly off topic, can you expand a little on how clear gel does what you need it to do? Saying something like that without context is similar to when someone says “well it works for me.” What is it that you need clear gel to do? If what you need your gel to do is give you a realistic approximation of what a certain bullet would do in a defensive shooting so you can make an informed decision on which defensive ammo to carry, then clear gel does not do what you need it to do. DocGKR has explained numerous times that the results seen in clear gel do not accurately represent corresponding results in street shootings, whereas organic gel results seem to. One quick example is that, as RevolverRob explained, bullets tend to penetrate a substantial amount farther in clear gel than they do in organic gel.

Back on track, I don’t own a snubby anymore and my current agency does not authorize me to carry one on duty so I’m debating whether or not I should buy another one, given that I’d only be able to use it off duty. When I did own one, I used it in a manner similar to how DB and several other posters have mentioned, as a pocket carried backup to a primary AIWB gun. The perfect example given was keeping your hand on your pocket carried snubby while pumping gas, especially during the winter where it’s possible to keep a snubby in an overcoat handwarmer pocket while the primary AIWB gun is covered by numerous layers that slow down the draw. I loaded it with the Winchester Ranger 130gr Bonded ammo only because I was able to score a few boxes at a very good price. I would have been perfectly fine with loading the gun with wad cutters. I wasn’t concerned with intermediate barrier penetration other than heavy clothing/four layer denim because the role of that snubby was as a very close range counter-robbery gun should I have been targeted while pumping gas or walking to and from the gas station bathroom. It would have been highly unlikely for someone to attempt to rob me from inside their vehicle. The robbers would typically be on foot. My plan was to deploy the snubby, fire all five rounds of needed, drop the empty snubby if the threat still existed, and transition to my AIWB carried semi-auto. My primary AIWB is always loaded with a reliable JHP round from Doc’s list. If I do choose to buy a snubby again, I will use it in the same manner as before, as a pocket carried backup gun.

[03RN]

I am in and around cars a lot as well. It is why I like the combination of an AIWB semi auto and a pocket snub. In the vehicle, the pocket snub is not the go to. With that said, you need to really think about why you would be shooting out of a vehicle through glass, or into a vehicle through glass as a private citizen. In Texas, I have not reached deadly force until someone attempts to remove me from my vehicle. So until that happens or we have someone shooting into my vehicle from the outside barrier penetration for my pocket gun that is there to remove people from me at contact or near contact distance is not my priority. Also, as a private citizen facing someone firing into your car or threatening it, I like the ballistics that are measured in tons combined with velocity measured in miles per hour.

I agree. I took an offensive driving class at Camp David. First lesson. If you're in a fight and can drive, DRIVE! But that's not always a possibility.

Then we look at mass casualty events like Nicé with a driver running down people

For a backup gun it's not really important if your primary can do the job.

[Rex G]

Meh, I don't have a lab or anyone to pay for my gel. Clear Gel does what I need it to do. I prefer to shoot more and read less. Carry whatever you want, it really makes no difference to me. If you have some ballistic gelatin tests to share for the 130 HST I would love to see it.

What do you need clear gel to do?

I, too, would rather shoot more, and read less. I do like to read, however, or hear from a known credible source, what bullets have done to real people, which is why I will personally try to find Speer 135-grain GDHPs, Specials or Magnums, to use in my heavier-weight snub-guns. NY Transit/City PDs shot some few with this bullet, and my wife worked a death scene involving a one-shot stop with this bullet, in Houston. Blood spatter evidence showed that he dropped like a rock. (The decedent was an ex-LEO, reaching for his gun; the shooter was his wife/GF/SO, in a domestic violence situation.)

With one of my really heavy sixguns, fully-lugged-barrel and 4” or more in length, I like any good, high-velocity 125-grain .357 Magnum JHP, because there have been plenty of documented incidents, including one involving me; the most devastating handgun bullet wound I have seen. I did use this in 2.25” SP101 fiveguns, for a while, which is why I mention it. It did not “hurt” me, but it was not exactly comfortable, and I reckoned it might not be so kind to my bones/joints, long-term.

My in-between .357 load of choice is the 145-grain Winchester Silvertip Hollowpoint. This is not a max-pressure load, but dropped plenty of bad guys, for the Border Patrol, and, anecdotally, was a huge favorite among Texas peace officers.

For my J-snubs, and anything with lighter-alloy frames and/or cylinders, well, I am now just loading target wadcutters. Old man ammo, for aging hands; J-snubs aim their rear frame corners right at the base joints of my thumbs.

For years, I used a small, dwindling supply of Federal 125-grain standard-pressure Nyclads.

[Nightvisionary]

It would just so happen that such is available right here at P-F.com.....

38 Special HST 130gr+P in Organic Gel (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?29816-38-Special-HST-130gr-P-in-Organic-Gel)

TL;DR:

It performs marginal in bare gel, which in the grand scheme of .38 snubnoses is actually pretty good.....but it absolutely sucks at the windshield test, which as a whole is a much more important and telling testing regimen than bare gel.

Comparatively, you could buy the 135gr Gold Dot or 130gr Bonded Ranger and have acceptable performance all around (as well as a round that is easier to reload under stress due to a conical projectile).

Clear gel tests are good for feelz, that's about it.



Probably the most accurate and relatable description I've ever read of how shooting these guns can feel.


Thanks for the link. It basically mirrors the results of my Clear Ballistics gel test. In addition it solidifies my belief that a .357 diameter bullet that expands to about .60 caliber and penetrates to about 12 inches coming out of a 1.87 inch barrel 38 special is not bad performance for a marginal defensive weapon. As an added plus your link shows that HST gets 10 inches of gel penetration after going through a car windshield. Not bad performance for a deep concealment non-duty back up gun. Of course it won't take out the engine block or punch through Level II body armor after penetrating a car door but I have realistic expectations for a sub-2inch 38 caliber snubbie.

[TGS]

Thanks for the link. It basically mirrors the results of my Clear Ballistics gel test. In addition it solidifies my belief that a .357 diameter bullet that expands to about .60 caliber and penetrates to about 12 inches coming out of a 1.87 inch barrel 38 special is not bad performance for a marginal defensive weapon. As an added plus your link shows that HST gets 10 inches of gel penetration after going through a car windshield. Not bad performance for a deep concealment non-duty back up gun. Of course it won't take out the engine block or punch through Level II body armor after penetrating a car door but I have realistic expectations for a sub-2inch 38 caliber snubbie.

There was complete jacket separation on all three rounds fired through the windshield, with two of the cores deflecting entirely and not even hitting the gel block. One of the cores traveled down the wound track of another round from a separate test, coming to rest at 10".

That's not good performance by any means. That's quite abysmal, especially considering there are rounds available with objectively good performance.

[Nightvisionary]

There was complete jacket separation on all three rounds fired through the windshield, with two of the cores deflecting entirely and not even hitting the gel block. One of the cores traveled down the wound track of another round from a separate test, coming to rest at 10".

That's not good performance by any means. That's quite abysmal, especially considering there are rounds available with objectively good performance.

Well look at the bright side. It offers expansion AND fragmentation through windshields.

[Dagga Boy]

I think this has run its course....start something new in the ammunition section to continue.