PDA

View Full Version : So, how many guns are "enough"?



Mr_White
04-05-2012, 03:37 PM
What do people here think about backup guns? Do you carry one or more backup guns always, sometimes, or never?

I am inspired to start this thread for a couple reasons:

It’s a continuation of a lot of the same self-and-threat-evaluation involved in the recent ‘how many rounds are enough’ and ‘does anyone use a revolver as primary’ threads.

It’s germane to the recent temporary deadlining of the P-T.com test gun due to a unfixable-in-the-moment broken part.

Hopefully I didn't miss some really obvious thread where this was discussed...

Shokr21
04-05-2012, 04:18 PM
I'll play.

I live in a domestic suburbia surrounded by millions of acres of cornfields. Seriously. From my Apt building - .6 miles eats on ramp to I-35, .62 miles east cornfields as far as the eye can see. I live on the northern end of the second largest metro in my home state, home to ~ 350k. What I'm getting at here is I'm a lot more likely to see a "browning" sticker and a .270 bolt in the back window than "hoodlums" when I drive through undesirable areas. Doesn't mean we don't have "ghettos", just trying to put things into perspective, I live in white-bread as hell Iowa, and I don't even live in the most white-bread area!

I carry a g19, sometimes with an extra mag in my pocket sometimes not. I have never felt uneasy due to my weapon choice. I don't see a point to carrying a BUG at this point in time, doesn't mean I'm not still working on my old lady to actually use her carry permit, so I can buy her a j-frame, a baby glock or a 19 of her own. I like the 1 is none 2 is one mantra, but to be honest I have never and likely will never carry a second handgun, unless I can find a smoking deal on a 642/442. When I'm out and about, i'm normally out and about with my friends who also carry, there's my 2is1 3is1 etc.

I know that situational awareness is something that has saved my life at least a couple of times, but all but one of those times I was wearing body armor full time and behind a crew-served machine gun. A clear, calm, collected and cognizant head on my shoulders is my first line of defense.

I'd never rag on someone who carries two handguns, more power to you! For me, I don't see the need.

JAD
04-05-2012, 04:23 PM
Really good question. The fact that I carry a reload rather than a backup gun makes me mad. I think that, other than a on-general-principles post-fight wolves-travel-in-packs kind of thing, actually having to reload is pretty unlikely (which doesn't mean I don't carry a reload, because they're just not that hard to carry). It's also pretty unlikely that my primary will become disabled. However, a spare gun covers the function of both the reload and the primary; there's not going to be much point in reloading my pistol if it just took a bullet going the wrong way.

The rhetorical question becomes "are two j-frames superior to one .38 Super 1911 without a reload (I did that math for you)?" We could avoid rhetoric.

Spare guns are a good thing.

JeffJ
04-05-2012, 04:32 PM
I've been seriously considering carrying something small in my WH side back pocket. While I appreciate the gun going down aspect of a BUG - mainly it would give me a pistol that I can access with my left hand, and it's also in the same place as a wallet - which "might" be a good thing in a situation where I'm expected to complicitly reach for my wallet.

Unfortunatley, I do not own a pocket pistol -and since my accountant recently informed me that apparently I made too much money last year and as a reward I get to write Uncle Sam a nice check, I probably won't be getting one anytime soon.

But I will be paying attention to this thread, mainly because it doesn't seem like adding a small BUG would really make my life more difficult - so why not?

JHC
04-05-2012, 04:52 PM
On rare occassions I've carried two. One IWB and the other AIWB, each in FIST 1K's; using a canted one IWB and the straight drop AIWB. Or even more comfortably, OWB Atomic Dog; G19 on the hip and G26 AIWB. With a reload for either on the left side. It's amazing how comfortable and livable that is. But I just don't do it very often although as I've posted and Todd recently lived - any gun is the next trigger pull away from seizing up. But I almost never do except on a few occassions just to test the concept. The exception being on those few occassions where I actually thought something very bad was possibly going to happen. Then two pistols feels like jack sh$# and you just can't seem to carry enough kit.

jmjames
04-05-2012, 05:03 PM
I too have questioned why I should prefer a spare mag over a spare gun. Some thoughts:

* Unless both guns are the same or very similar, it is probably less work to train a reload than using a second gun
* Concealment of spare mags is a lot easier
* Where you put a BUG is probably a lot less easy to draw from than a spare mag pouch
* Cost

That said, I can very, very easily see what a G17 or 19 user would prefer to have a G26 instead of a spare mag, or a P30 owner might also want a P2KSK, instead of another mag, etc.

In addition, if you train with and are used to that BUG, it gives you an option for when carrying a larger gun is less possible.

J.Ja

JHC
04-05-2012, 05:24 PM
If running two guns INSTEAD of a reload, your only option is drop the gun and draw the 2nd (or reholster and draw the 2nd which doesn't sound too viable). I think a trained reload is gonna be faster all the way around. But as noted, a 2nd gun can do things a spare mag can't. ;)

DocGKR
04-05-2012, 05:29 PM
For LE duty a BUG should be mandatory.

For most civilian CCW it is less critical, but a BUG does give you the option of quickly arming another individual (spouse, friend, co-worker, etc...) in a lethal force situation like an active shooter incident.

TCz
04-05-2012, 06:20 PM
In addition to my G17, I carry an LCP in my weak side pocket as a backup. It also works as a "primary" in non-permissive environments- "primary" in this case meaning "better than a sharp stick in the eye".

ETA: I also carry a spare mag, but if i had to choose between a spare mag and a BUG, I'd take the mag.

Long tom coffin
04-05-2012, 06:23 PM
I carry a gun for the same reason I don't stand next to trees or play golf during lightning storms; while I am still statistically highly unlikely to get struck, I see no reason to temp fate and not take precautions. Same thing with being the victim of violent crime. Unlikely to happen, but I believe in being prepared for it in the attempt it does happen.


I live in a section of STL county that is quite safe. Still, I carry a G19 as a primary, 2 spare magazines, as well as a an LCR BUG, with a reload for that as well. I also have 2 additional reloads in my car for each. Why? Because I can safely, comfortably, and effectively carry all of it. I figure, since I'm already preparing for the unlikely event of a life or death encounter, why not prepare as much as possible?

David Armstrong
04-05-2012, 06:46 PM
My current lifestyle is such that I feel quite comfortable carrying only one gun, whatever that gun may be. When I was in LE whenever possible I always carried two, a primary and a BUG, and at times even a third gun depending on weather or assignment.

JDM
04-05-2012, 07:17 PM
More than 0 and less than 4.

I always have an M&P and a reload.

If I'm leaving Albuquerque by car, I'll usually bring my carbine, in which case I'll put 4 carbine reloads into my pack, which may or may not have another M&P in it.

I don't carry a BUG on my person however.

tjbeck
04-05-2012, 07:22 PM
I have been thinking about this a lot too after reading P-T & P-F and those threads.

I don't carry a BUG but, have been giving some serious consideration to picking one up after reading on here. I haven't yet bought one as I have been focusing now on getting better with the gun I carry and trying to find a holster belt clothing combo that works with my M&P9. After I work that I will likely start looking at BUG options as I would like to have that flexibility in an active shooter, or worst case scenario.

Mr_White
04-05-2012, 07:47 PM
For me, it’s backup guns FTW.

The reasons are numerous:

Primary firearm rendered inoperable (an actual jam, broken part or damaged gun.) I have personally experienced a pistol precipitously stop working in the training context, as I’m sure many others here have.

Primary firearm inaccessible or less accessible than backup due to injury to the dominant hand or limb.

Positioning may preclude the accessibility of the primary pistol, but not the backup.

Ability to arm another person who is competent but cannot legally carry a gun.

The primary firearm was dropped or knocked away.

The primary firearm is itself the object of attack (gun grab.)

A backup gun carried in a pocket can be accessed while feigning compliance/retrieval of valuables, and when used in that way, can help one dig out of a deep reaction time hole.

It may, depending on a person’s individual skills and the carry method of the backup, be faster to draw a backup pistol than to reload or fix a stoppage in the primary.

No, I don’t think any of those eventualities are likely, but I also cannot satisfy myself that they cannot or will not happen.

I came from a ‘two is one, one is none, three is even better’ school and backup guns were encouraged in my early training.

I personally very much agree with those who have said (paraphrasing): “If you are carrying a gun, you are already preparing for an unlikely, outlying event, so why not go a little further?” I also personally do not find it any burden at all to add the G26, so I do.

When I carry a gun, I always always always carry another one. Before I switched to AIWB, I used to carry mirror image G17s IWB strong and support side. Before that, they were G21s. And don’t forget the pocket or ankle gun either. Reloads common to all guns carried are a great bonus too.

Before you laugh (or after you laugh), carrying three guns while speeding on the way to an LFI class got me a very funny look from the cop who pulled me over, and subsequently a pleasant and courteous interaction and a warning instead of what I’m sure would have been a very large ticket.

Once I switched to AIWB, I moved away from the ‘tactical guy uniform’ (5.11s and a vest – not a shoot me first vest, but a ‘great northwest’ type of vest) and changed the way I dress to a much more nondescript modality of jeans and a tee or polo shirt and maybe a light sweatshirt. Along with the clothing change, I ‘cut down’ to just the AIWB primary – previously a G17, now a G34 – and a G26 on the ankle. I couldn’t be happier now. I lightened up a lot, dress more attractively for my woman, have many less ‘concealed carry’ tells inherent to my mode of dress, and spurred by the draw speed gains of AIWB, became incredibly excited about practicing a lot and becoming as skillful as I can, which has been hugely positive.

TGS
04-05-2012, 10:06 PM
As a civilian CCW'er, I don't feel the need to carry a BUG. It's so far down the list of something I'm likely to need in life that I don't bother.

The only time I've carried a BUG is if I'm bringing it to the range with me to begin with, or for the reason DocGKR mentioned about supplying a weapon to a friend. Specific to that, the only time I carried a gun for someone else (he was still waiting on his permit), it was a 5" steel framed 1911 on a Crossbreed at 4 O Clock. I carried my P2000 AIWB. That was a true demonstration of how a good quality gun belt (not just a gun belt, but a good quality one) can really make a difference, and the demonstration was part of the reason I offered to take his piece.

Buzz Fledderjohn
04-05-2012, 11:25 PM
Where I'm going and the time of year dictates as many as three for me. Most winters in OH are cold and we plan to move way up into the U.P. of MI where we can get real winters again....

Primary EDC is a G19 with a G17 magazine for a reload. First backup is a G26, usually carried SOB but sometimes on my ankle. Second backup is a 642 that usually rides on my ankle but in the winter when I'm wearing a large coat it sits in a Nemesis in my pocket. My thought process is if it's cold out I look normal with my hands in my coat pockets and the snubby is literally at my fingertips and can be fired from inside the pocket even if TSHTF right in front of me. The winter coat slows down the draw from IWB considerably unless the hackles are raised and I can open up the coat.

Probably 80% of the time it's usually just the 19 with a reload and the snubby on my ankle. With recent forays into AIWB carry everything might very well evolve here.

~Matt

LHS
04-06-2012, 01:38 AM
I carry a BUG for many of the reasons outlined in OrigamiAK's post.

For me, the two primary reasons for carrying a BUG are:

1. Accessible to my weak hand. If my strong hand is engaged with something (grappling, holding onto my wife or kid, opening a door, wounded/disabled, etc), I can still reach a weapon.
2. Accessible without appearing to be reaching for a weapon. I can casually stand with my hands in my pockets, looking nonthreatening and still be able to draw or just fire through my pocket. This is a role in which I feel the J-frame excels, despite its weaknesses.

One of the other items that sealed the deal, so to speak, was the discovery that I could get back in the game about four seconds faster by drawing a BUG than by clearing some malfunctions (i.e. the kind that aren't fixed by a TRB). Five rounds may not be much, but it might be enough to create enough space/time to address my primary's issues.

I've heard of the notion of carrying a BUG to supply a friend, but all of my friends who can shoot also carry, so unless both their primary and backup guns go dead, I don't see myself handing my J-frame to anyone. That said, I have been places where others could carry, but I couldn't (i.e. traveling with LEO friends where my CCW permit is not recognized), and the plan has been to use a friend's BUG should the need arise.

JHC
04-06-2012, 07:16 AM
Does one generally have to get the jframe out of it's pocket holster before one can fire it in from inside the pocket?

Chuck Haggard
04-06-2012, 08:42 AM
Ever since being released to solo patrol I have carried a BUG while on duty. Every. Single. Day.

I have gone through a few different BUGs, carrying guns as large as a S&W 6906, Glock 27 or 26, Detective Specials, as ankle guns. My left knee has arthritis bad now so I had to go from the G26 on my ankle back to a 642. With a change in uniforms I can now carry a 642 on the ankle and another in a weak side pocket, so I do.

Off duty I am almost always carrying a G19 and a 642 now, except when I am working out or running and I have the G19 in a fanny pack as my only gun.


I have responded to active-shooter situations twice in my town over the past 20 years, so my mindset goes towards the more extreme events. I figure I have the training and the skills to work the problem, best to also have the tools available.

In the past I have twice had to arm other LEOs who were unarmed when something went bad. Due to HR218 I can also carry when other very competent people often can't. Say I am at lunch with a friend who is a retired SEAL, I am armed, he isn't due to the law on such things being retarded as hell. My plan is to toss a gun to the guy that likely shoots better than I do, more help is better I says.

Ever since my oldest daughter has been old enough to learn to drive she was also taught how to run my carry guns. In an emergency I can pass my BUG and the extra set of car keys to her so that she and her little sister can get to the car while I cover their escape. It would be an extreme Beslan/Mumbai scenario for this to go down, best to have that plan worked out ahead of time.

Chuck Haggard
04-06-2012, 08:43 AM
Does one generally have to get the jframe out of it's pocket holster before one can fire it in from inside the pocket?

Yes, generally.

Long tom coffin
04-06-2012, 10:37 AM
Yes, generally.

Yes, I would mostly agree with this. There are some exceptions, however. Certain types of holsters will allow it, but it's best to be careful with those, because some of the designs are simply not safe. During the winter and fall months, I have several coats and jackets with pockets large enough not only for me to store my BUG, but also safely remove it from the holster inside the pocket as well.

Buzz Fledderjohn
04-06-2012, 12:17 PM
When pocket carrying the 642 it rides in a Nemesis and I just need to get the gun out enough to get my finger on the trigger and then fire, not necessarily clearing the holster 100%. When I carry this way it's in a weak side pocket.

~Matt

ToddG
04-06-2012, 01:41 PM
For those who are advocating shooting the gun before it clears the pocket: How much live fire practice do you have using this technique that you're confident where the bullet will land, how the recoil will feel and/or affect you in that position, etc.?

johnemckenzie
04-06-2012, 03:05 PM
OrigamiAK, this thread is pertinent to your initial question. Enjoy.

http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?769-BUG-questions

Buzz Fledderjohn
04-06-2012, 04:03 PM
For those who are advocating shooting the gun before it clears the pocket: How much live fire practice do you have using this technique that you're confident where the bullet will land, how the recoil will feel and/or affect you in that position, etc.?

It sucks. I would only think about doing it if a threat was literally on top of me. While I have yet to shoot right from inside a pocket, (might grab an old barn coat or something from goodwill to destroy,) I have shot the snubby from a tight retention stance, butt of the gun basically in my ribs, into a target less than an arms length away while protecting my head with my other arm. Cooked my shirt and arm a bit, felt a LOT of blast in my face and recoil was uncomfortably snappy as usual (+P carry ammo) from the little flame thrower. Hits were low COM on a full size target.
I would only think about doing this with my 642.

~Matt

Ed L
04-06-2012, 06:00 PM
For those who are advocating shooting the gun before it clears the pocket: How much live fire practice do you have using this technique that you're confident where the bullet will land, how the recoil will feel and/or affect you in that position, etc.?

In a Massad Ayoob mini class at the snubbie summit a few years ago where we were instructed to bring an old jacket or two to fire the snubbie out of a jacket pocket.

It was also clear that this was an extreme close range technique for when an attacker was right on top of you.

Of course, jacket pockets are different than pants pockets in that you have more flexibility of movement to point and orient the gun. I don't see typical pants pockets as providing the flexibility to angle the gun to shoot anything unless someone was biting you on the leg or something.

Frankly, even then I would be afraid of shooting myself in the leg or something if I were to shoot a revolver off in my pocket in the middle of a struggle.

Al T.
04-06-2012, 06:19 PM
How much live fire practice do you have using this technique that you're confident where the bullet will land, how the recoil will feel and/or affect you in that position, etc.?

I've done it. Burned up a cheap sports jacket*. You have to really torque the J frame upwards as the jacket pockets tend to direct the muzzle down. I don't carry that way at all. If I did, I'd consider it a grappling technique, I.E., when someone is executing a front choke hold and you need to get something going to change the fight dynamics.



* Literally set the coat on fire.

ToddG
04-07-2012, 10:18 AM
Thank you for those responses, guys. The lesson learned from your examples, hopefully, is that "I can shoot from inside the pocket" isn't as simple as it sounds.

JHC
04-07-2012, 11:47 AM
Thank you for those responses, guys. The lesson learned from your examples, hopefully, is that "I can shoot from inside the pocket" isn't as simple as it sounds.

And the conventional wisdom that the pocket gun must be in a pocket holster just complicates the matter further (the shooting FROM the pocket). It's a great BUG plan for plenty of applications no doubt. Not being LEO nor being stuck in buttoned up big coats in northern winters much, I've not found a lot of applilcation for them myself. And I'm NOT meaning to disparage or discourage the practice.

Funny, back in the day I actually used to engage Gunkid in argument without name calling; a fair amount of it arguing his speed of hits from the pocket was BS if his draw started from OUTSIDE the pocket.

LHS
04-07-2012, 11:57 AM
Thank you for those responses, guys. The lesson learned from your examples, hopefully, is that "I can shoot from inside the pocket" isn't as simple as it sounds.

I don't think anyone ever implied that it was. The J-frame is already a limited-use, niche item. Shooting from inside a pocket is an even narrower niche, but it has its place in the toolkit. I have no illusions that I could magically X-ring someone between the eyes from inside my pocket at 25 yards. But blasting through a coat pocket at bad breath range is at least feasible, and if it's the only option, so be it. I do need to get some more cheap Goodwill jackets to practice more, though.

NEPAKevin
04-07-2012, 12:53 PM
While it is admittedly not the same, shooting from retention approximates the index that one would use while firing from a jacket pocket. When I started shooting pistols, one instructor had us shoot from retention at increasing distances and the one technique using a head index allowed most of us to about double the range we could reliably hit from which depending on the shooter was ten to fifteen yards. By hit, I mean hits on COM or knocking down a popper.

Tamara
04-11-2012, 09:36 AM
Not a pocket gun, as such, but I selected the gun that goes in my purse's carry compartment (http://cosmolineandrust.blogspot.com/2008/02/sunday-smith-36-model-296-1999.html) for three reasons:

It's very light.
It's hammerless and can be fired from inside the purse. (And I have sacrificed a few cheap bags to the gods of thunder to test this.)
It's chambered for big, slow .429" bullets that are less reliant on velocity and unclogged hollowpoints to expand after getting fired through a purse.


It is very easy to hold the purse in front of me in such a way that my gun is already in my hand while walking across a parking lot or riding in an elevator, yet it would not be apparent to an observer.

I recollect at Blade Show in ATL several years back, I had to walk from the Galleria across Cobb Parkway back to the hotel at 0MyGawd30 and the only way to get to the lobby was to take the elevator in the parking garage. When the elevator stops on a middle floor of a deserted parking garage, it is very reassuring to know you can open the ball with your gun already in hand without spooking the person getting on if they turn out to be just a very large and scruffy, but otherwise harmless and happy, drunk.

Like Al T. implied about shooting from a pocket, it's a pretty narrow-focus tool, but I figure I have to take the purse along anyway...

LSP972
04-12-2012, 07:39 AM
Thank you for those responses, guys. The lesson learned from your examples, hopefully, is that "I can shoot from inside the pocket" isn't as simple as it sounds.

There is another aspect to this.

One Friday afternoon, with nothing on the schedule, my guys and I decided to try this out (nothing more dangerous than a gaggle of bored LE firearms instructors, eh?). We had discussed it previously, and one of the guys had brought an old London Fog overcoat he had gotten from a deceased relative.

In addition to the already-noted caveats about muzzle orientation and difficulty in getting the piece aligned to your target, we made one more important discovery... an OLD garment that has been treated heavily with Scotch-Guard will catch fire when a J-frame is fired from within a pocket. Needless to say, things got real exciting for a minute. The shooter was mildly scorched, nothing serious; but he put a professional pole dancer to shame stripping out of that overcoat.

Just sayin'... :-)

.

JHC
04-12-2012, 09:52 AM
OH man!!! Wouldn't that have been epic to have caught on video? It would be a youtube sensation! :D

Mr_White
04-12-2012, 12:54 PM
On the subject of firing the gun from inside the pocket:

I haven't worked with this myself. When I've carried a pocket gun in the past, it was in the pants pocket using a pocket holster. There's no way firing from inside that pocket will work.

I have an acquaintance who was in a class where they tested the conventional wisdom of 'revolvers can fire multiple shots from inside a coat pocket, but semiautomatics will only get one shot before malfunctioning.'

He tells me that, to their great surprise, a significant percentage of semiautomatics were able to fire multiple shots from inside a coat pocket without malfunctioning. I would think this is dependent on the size of the gun and the size of the pocket. I was pretty surprised by his report since it flew in the face of conventional wisdom, though I certainly don't think he was simply lying to me.

Again, I have not tried this myself, but given his report it might bear some more testing.

LSP972
04-13-2012, 07:22 AM
OH man!!! Wouldn't that have been epic to have caught on video? It would be a youtube sensation! :D

Undoubtedly. However, this was before cell phone cameras; before cell phones, period, now that I think about it. "Bag" phones were all the rage, though...:D

We tried it again later, using several old M-65 field jackets. Basically, at anything beyond contact distance your hit probability is rather iffy. And after the second shot, there is quite a big hole blown out the front of the garment, so I can see where a self-loader might get more than the proverbial one round off. We never tried one; we used my old M-37 with a bobbed hammer, and another fellow's M-38 Bodyguard (a REAL Bodyguard, not those plastic abortions they're hawking these days).

J frames rule...;)

.

Tamara
04-13-2012, 08:08 AM
Basically, at anything beyond contact distance your hit probability is rather iffy.

This.

And a .44 Spl CCI Blazer 200gr GDHP load will turn a genuine Mexican goat leather purse darn near inside out.

Long tom coffin
04-13-2012, 01:11 PM
Thank you for those responses, guys. The lesson learned from your examples, hopefully, is that "I can shoot from inside the pocket" isn't as simple as it sounds.



I will vouch for what buzz said. I tried it when I first got my snubbie with an old wrangler jean jacket. I backed a standard silhouette target back three yards. First I fired with my left hand inside the pocket. Accuracy was atrocious. I thought I was at least pointed towards COM, but instead my shots were landing at the right side wrist area of the target. When I switched to the right pocket, my shots were landing in the left forearm area. As Buzz said, this is a tactic I would use if someone was literally right on top of me.

I also tried firing from the same retention position as Buzz outside the jacket, and the result was...breathtaking, to say the least. I'd never fired a gun that close to my own body before, and it wasn't something I forgot, or probably will ever forget. I was using Blazer 158 gr +P when I did that.

Ed L
04-13-2012, 05:21 PM
I will vouch for what buzz said. I tried it when I first got my snubbie with an old wrangler jean jacket. I backed a standard silhouette target back three yards.

Three yards is typically beyond the range that most instructors recomend for retention shooting, unless the target is closing on you so that the danger exists that he might try to grab or divert your weapon if you were to extend it in a typical shooting stance. In which case your first shot might take place at three yards; your second shot might take place at 3 feet; and your third shot might take place at 3 inches.

Long tom coffin
04-13-2012, 11:55 PM
Three yards is typically beyond the range that most instructors recomend for retention shooting, unless the target is closing on you so that the danger exists that he might try to grab or divert your weapon if you were to extend it in a typical shooting stance. In which case your first shot might take place at three yards; your second shot might take place at 3 feet; and your third shot might take place at 3 inches.

There was a practical reason for that, namely that the range I was at at the time didn't allow shooting under three yards or beyond 25 (for pistols). It was more or less for the general experience of trying such, to see what it was like before I seriously considered the tactic having any place at all in my toolbox.