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TCz
04-04-2012, 07:30 PM
I am purchasing an AR. This will be my first one, likely my only one. I'd like to approach this the same way many on this board recommend approaching pistol shooting; Get a quality gun (like a Glock, P30, M&P), get mucho ammo/magazines, and get some training.
I will use it to take carbine courses, 3-gun, and defense.

I don't need a free-float tube, quad rails, or other tactical stuff as yet; I will add them as I need them. What I want is a basic AR with quality components, durability for high round counts, and acceptable accuracy. (If it has all the tactical stuff, that's fine too)
I do not mind spending more for quality, so for that reason I will not set a budget.

I suppose what I am asking is: Who makes the AR equivalent of an out-of-the-box HK P30/Gen 3 Glock?

JDM
04-04-2012, 07:32 PM
Colt 6920. Without question.

Jay Cunningham
04-04-2012, 07:34 PM
Colt 6920 or 6720. LE6933 if you are willing (and legally able) to deal with a $200 tax stamp.

rob_s
04-04-2012, 08:02 PM
Colt 6920 or 6720. LE6933 if you are willing (and legally able) to deal with a $200 tax stamp.

Exactly. I would put the 6720 above the 6920, simply due to reduced weight with no real downsides relative to the 6920.

GJM
04-04-2012, 08:15 PM
How do you compare the Colt models to a BCM?

Jay Cunningham
04-04-2012, 08:22 PM
How do you compare the Colt models to a BCM?

I think BCM is nearly on par with Colt. Colt has been doing this for a *really* long time, however.

MikeyC
04-04-2012, 09:38 PM
How do you compare the Colt models to a BCM?
Dig around a little and you can generally find Colt's for less than BCM.

TCz
04-04-2012, 10:57 PM
How about Daniel Defense, LaRue, and Knight's Armament? Those are the other ones I've been hearing about along with Colt and Bravo Company.

But, it sounds like Colt is the way to go.

Long tom coffin
04-04-2012, 11:12 PM
How about Daniel Defense, LaRue, and Knight's Armament? Those are the other ones I've been hearing about along with Colt and Bravo Company.

But, it sounds like Colt is the way to go.

I know DD and LaRue are G2G. I have no experience with Knights so I cannot comment on it. Those might be a little bit past the price range you were suggesting, however, especially the LaRues. They can be quite pricey in comparison to some other quality "starter" models.

As for what you should get, my vote would definitely get cast with the Colt 6920. I picked up my first rifle quite awhile back, and my decision was weighed between the Colt 6920 and the BCM MOD II. I wanted something with a reasonable price point as close to the TDP as possible. In the end, I got the 6920, and it is one of those rare few decisions that I do not regret at all.

rob_s
04-05-2012, 06:07 AM
I think it's important to separate one class of guns from another.

Guns like the Larue line, the KAC SR15, Daniel Defense, most Noveskes, etc. come already "tricked out". This is good for those that know what they want, based on prior experience, and for who "what they want" is exactly what these makers offer. I consider all of these "boutique" guns.

Guns like the Colts suggested and certain BCM "builds" offer a great entry-level option for those that lack the experience to know what they NEED, but posses the intelligence to know the difference. They get you a high-quality gun, with a higher likelihood of running and running for the long-haul, as you learn about the platform system. When starting out there is often a temptation to buy a less-expensive, and lesser-quality, sample but that is asking for trouble IMO and is sure to turn eople off. I know a whole slew of guys that hate the 1911 simply because their only experience is with a $400 RIA.

For someone getting started with the AR FOW I will always suggest what the OP appears to be doing, which is to buy the basic gun and apply basic accessories (such as a good two-point quick adjust sling like the VTAC, VCAS, or SOB, possibly an Aimpoint or Eotech, etc.) so that they can get out and shoot the gun and learn what works for them in the way that they intend to use the gun, or that they discover they enjoy using the gun. I do not suggest a light right out of the gate because I do not suggest using a gun you are unfamiliar with, and untrained on, for defensive purposes, and defensive purposes are the only reason for the light.

By all means, if you're a guy that learns from failure and are flush with cash, buy the Larue or KAC, trick it all out with optics, lasers, and lights (get yourself a plate carrier while you're at it, you gotta trick yourself out as well as the gun), provided you have the money to also buy the ammo and get the training.

For the rest of us, I promise, it will always be less expensive in the long run to buy the basic gun, learn how to use it, and intelligently adjust/modify as necessary. I am telling you this based on the experience of having done it WRONG myself and subsequently advising dozens of others not to do it the way I did and observing their success as well as receiving their thanks for saving them from over-spending.

jstyer
04-05-2012, 06:20 AM
For the rest of us, I promise, it will always be less expensive in the long run to buy the basic gun, learn how to use it, and intelligently adjust/modify as necessary. I am telling you this based on the experience of having done it WRONG myself and subsequently advising dozens of others not to do it the way I did and observing their success as well as receiving their thanks for saving them from over-spending.

Pure gold Rob!

Having been a guy who also got it "wrong", the above info is exactly the route I would go if starting again...

TCz
04-05-2012, 08:41 AM
In that case, I will look for a Colt 6720, 6920, and check out what BCM has to offer.

Thank you all for your help!

Failure2Stop
04-05-2012, 09:21 AM
Daniel Defense makes a good LW barrel/upper as well.

TCz
04-05-2012, 09:58 AM
Next question:

Is there an advantage to buying the rifle whole, or can I buy a quality upper and put it on a lower? I already have a lower, but if its better to buy the whole gun then I'll do that.

After reading previous replies, I'm leaning towards buying a complete rifle, and selling the lower I have, or saving it for a future project.

Lower is Palmetto State, if that matters.

jmjames
04-05-2012, 10:19 AM
I've been looking at this for months too.

What it comes down to for me, after a long time of looking at it, is exactly what others have said. Either get the Colt, figure out additional needs, and modify from there, or buy a DD, Noveske, etc. that's already what you *think* you want, and hope it is. The price difference between a Colt and a DD is the same price difference between the standard handguards on the Colt and decent rails like the DD will have, give or take a couple of bucks.

For me, when I do make the buy, I will most likely get the DD for that reason, and because I want a mid-length HG. I've got long, gangly arms, and I've already learned on my shotguns that I like more room for them.

J.Ja

orionz06
04-05-2012, 10:27 AM
Next question:

Is there an advantage to buying the rifle whole, or can I buy a quality upper and put it on a lower? I already have a lower, but if its better to buy the whole gun then I'll do that.

After reading previous replies, I'm leaning towards buying a complete rifle, and selling the lower I have, or saving it for a future project.

Lower is Palmetto State, if that matters.

At one point in time it was cheaper to buy a box of parts but these days there is more savings in buying a complete upper with the rail/handguard and sights you want.

HCM
04-05-2012, 10:39 AM
http://www.gtdist.com/SearchResults.aspx?SubCat=RIF&SubSub=AUTO&Category=GUNAM

Not sure where you are in TX, but if you go the complete gun route, GT's in Austin and Dallas have good prices on Colts.

TCz
04-05-2012, 12:13 PM
http://www.gtdist.com/SearchResults.aspx?SubCat=RIF&SubSub=AUTO&Category=GUNAM

Not sure where you are in TX, but if you go the complete gun route, GT's in Austin and Dallas have good prices on Colts.

I'm in College Station, but I'll check out GT's. I've been told they also sell bulk duty ammo, so I've been meaning to drop by there anyway.

rob_s
04-05-2012, 02:20 PM
The other thing you get with a complete gun is a complete gun warranty. If you have something go wrong with a "build", even a half & half, how do you or the manufacturers know for sure which half is at fault?

mnealtx
04-05-2012, 08:40 PM
I'm in College Station, but I'll check out GT's. I've been told they also sell bulk duty ammo, so I've been meaning to drop by there anyway.

They've *gotta* be able to beat Champion's prices!! :p

There's also Ammotogo.com, based in Brenham.

LHS
04-05-2012, 11:59 PM
Another vote for a 6720 or 6920. Basic, plain-jane, and hell-built-for-stout. You can find 6920s for about $1000 if you look around, the 6720s seem to be a bit more (at least in my limited searching).

Slap an Aimpoint PRO on it, a decent sling, and a white light, and you're good to go for well under $2000.

That said, after some experimentation, I settled on a Daniel Defense. I like the lightweight barrel (which you can get in a 6720), the mid-length gas system and the 12" rail. If I had it to do over again, I'd probably get one of the newer DD guns with the lightweight tube handguard instead of the full quad rail (75% of which I don't use). I did, however, get a screaming deal on the DD upper. AIM Surplus has them periodically for about $750 shipped (with VFG but no iron sights), though they're currently sold out.

As Rob mentioned, having a warranty is nice. The other side of that is that buying an upper means you can avoid the 11% federal excise tax on complete guns.

But if you want the bombproof, simple answer, it's "Buy a 6920, an Aimpoint PRO, Vickers sling, some kind of white light, a bunch of PMAGS and a few cases of ammo, then take a class."

Joe Mamma
04-06-2012, 08:08 AM
I'm a little late to this thread but I would recommend a Colt 6920, BCM or LMT.

The only issues I have with a Colt 6920 is that the older ones (up until about two years ago) had wide diameter trigger pins and hammer pins (and wide holes in the receiver). Industry standard is 0.155" dia., Colt 6920s were 0.170" dia. Changing out some parts on these Colts may be an issue because of parts availability (and pricing). A recently manufactured 6920 will have the industry standard 0.155" pins.

Also, Colt 6920s have a notch at the top of the hammer face. It's normally not an issue. But my understanding is that it can't be used with 9mm conversion kits (specifically the bolt carriers), and possibly 22 conversion kits too. It may depend onnthe brand of conversion kit. But you should know that most hammers from other companies/guns do not have this notch.

I would also suggest buying a complete gun. Save the project gun idea for your second gun when you really know what you want. Also, it's good to have one gun that you know will actually work. :D

Joe Mamma

Lon
04-06-2012, 11:30 AM
Personally, if I was buying a new AR, I'd go with BCM components and order exactly what I wanted. They don't currently sell complete rifles (yet) on their website, but you can get the uppers and lowers minus stocks and forearms so you can pick what you want.

Otherwise, I'd end up replacing a bunch of parts anyway. Just my 2 cents.

Jay Cunningham
04-06-2012, 11:40 AM
So the thread topic is "quality basic AR" and now we are getting into the parts lists of "here's my personal preference dream build".

These threads always have the potential to drift really easily.

bdcheung
04-06-2012, 11:50 AM
So once one has decided on a quality, basic AR (like the Colt 6720 or 6920), who has one in stock? I've checked Buds and G&R Tactical, both are sold out of the 6720 and 6920MP (both of which I feel are a better value than the bone-stock 6920 with carry handle).

jmjames
04-06-2012, 11:56 AM
WalMart has them now, not sure of the exact model numbers, but the pricing was fair.

J.Ja

bdcheung
04-06-2012, 11:57 AM
:eek:

ok, I normally make it a rule to avoid big box stores, but I'll swing by there this weekend to check it out.

I had no idea Wal-Mart is an FFL.

Buzz Fledderjohn
04-06-2012, 12:31 PM
I vote for keep the lower you already have and buy a complete rifle using the already stated advise. The colts listed as well as DD and BCM will get you out of the gate running with a solid platform.
Shoot.
Learn to maintain and troubleshoot the rifle properly without going overboard.
Shoot.
Shoot.
Take a class.
Find out what would work best for your needs and put together an upper with those specs to add to your current lower. Either sell off the starter rifle to fund the desired upper or best case, you now have two complete rifles.

~Matt

TCz
04-06-2012, 07:15 PM
Ok, I checked around a few places, and I've decided to go the complete rifle route. It will either be a Colt or a DD (I'll consider a BCM if I see one, but they're uncommon round here).

Just as an aside, what do y'all think of the Palmetto State AR's? LGS has one for $680 and they look decent. Supposedly they have "machine gun steel" barrels, and I read somewhere that they were in fact using FN barrels.

I'm getting the Colt or DD, but may consider the PSA or a PSA upper as a backup or tinker gun.

jmjames
04-06-2012, 07:47 PM
PSA is local to me, so there are a number of them around. I've heard mixed things. Since there's an FN plant here, it seems like PSA and FN do some business... definitely barrels, but I am not sure what else. They make the "right claims" as it were on their stuff ("high pressure tested", "magnetic particle inspected", "gas key secured with grade 8 fasteners and staked per mil-spec", etc.). They also say they get their stuff from a "mil-spec manufacturer" and I'd lean towards that maker being FN... but for all I know, it's Del-Ton or Bushmaster... I keep asking around about them, I think the worst I've heard is that someone put an ambi safety on and it had issues indicating that the lower was out of spec on the size. "Someone I know" told me that "someone they know" took one to a carbine class with no malfs. So that's the hearsay I have heard.

The price is very tempting to me, and with them being local (20 minute drive from my house), it means I can easily bug them on support if it doesn't work right. On the other hand, none of the SMEs here have said, "good to go", but whether that is due to lack of experience with them or bad experiences, I do not know.

J.Ja

DanH
04-07-2012, 01:09 AM
I'm wondering if anyone has any info on CMMG? They are fairly local to me but the prices I have seen online are so low that it makes me a little wary. To me it's similar to a 1911, if it costs less than a grand and doesn't say Colt I probably wanna stay away.

fuse
04-07-2012, 01:28 AM
Seems like the carbine gas system is obsolete for a 16" barrel.

I have possibly drank too much Pat Rogers koolaid on this issue, but I see no reason to buy a colt over a DD/BCM/LMT midlength gun.

I am a novice carbine shooter, but shooting my POS carbine bushmaster does not compare to shooting my midlength BCM. The recoil impulse difference is very noticeable.

As far as I can tell, reasons to buy a colt are basically "colt has been making rifles for a very long time, and they resist making the clearly superior midlength. "

It's weird.

TCz
04-07-2012, 02:24 AM
Availability of a midlength is what keeps pushing me to DD...

rob_s
04-07-2012, 03:00 AM
Mid-length is over-rated.

Don't get me wrong, I like them, and have them, but to hear some people tell it they cure cancer. That just isn't the case.

The more I learn about the AR FOW the more I come to learn that Colt does things that nobody else does. It's largely minutiae to most but better is better.

If someone insists on the mid-length then the BCM or DD are good options.

Jay Cunningham
04-07-2012, 06:24 AM
Mid-length is over-rated.

Don't get me wrong, I like them, and have them, but to hear some people tell it they cure cancer. That just isn't the case.

The more I learn about the AR FOW the more I come to learn that Colt does things that nobody else does. It's largely minutiae to most but better is better.

If someone insists on the mid-length then the BCM or DD are good options.

I'm feeling the bromance, Rob. :o

If your technique is poor, the mid-length really wont help you.

John Hearne
04-07-2012, 11:33 AM
So the thread topic is "quality basic AR" and now we are getting into the parts lists of "here's my personal preference dream build". These threads always have the potential to drift really easily.

Yes but it is easy to buy the right configuration that is suitable for proper pimping at a later date. For instance you could by a BCM or DD 16" mid-length with fixed FSB and stock handguards and have a good basic rifle. If you decide to spend the money later, you can chop the FSB and put a railed foreend on it when you have more money.

LHS
04-07-2012, 12:02 PM
Mid-length is over-rated.

Don't get me wrong, I like them, and have them, but to hear some people tell it they cure cancer. That just isn't the case.

The more I learn about the AR FOW the more I come to learn that Colt does things that nobody else does. It's largely minutiae to most but better is better.

If someone insists on the mid-length then the BCM or DD are good options.

There is much truth here. I love my mid-length DD, and I can certainly tell the difference in recoil impulse and muzzle jump between it and a carbine-length upper. But it's an incremental gain, rather than revolutionary. I certainly wouldn't feel behind the power curve with a carbine-length upper, assuming it was set up the same way re: sights, optics, sling, handguard, etc. Colt's AR quality is second to none. They have the TDP and have worked out most of the kinks in the basic system. If you want fancier stuff, there are other quality makers like DD, BCM, Noveske, LaRue, etc, but you can't beat the basic quality level of a 6920 or 6720, especially for the price.

Suvorov
04-07-2012, 12:12 PM
I'm wondering if anyone has any info on CMMG? They are fairly local to me but the prices I have seen online are so low that it makes me a little wary. To me it's similar to a 1911, if it costs less than a grand and doesn't say Colt I probably wanna stay away.

CMMG is a commercial gun. They do some things right and other things not so right. Their barrels are nitrate finished instead of chrome lined and to my knowledge their stuff is not HP tested and MPI'ed (Rob would know better). I have a .22LR dedicated upper and have not been blown away by its quality, but it being a .22LR we are not exactly comparing apples to apples. While you could most likely get a CMMG that would satisfy your needs for a little under $800 (the lowest I've seen them priced), I don't know why you would want to take the chance when a M&P15A can be found for about the same price and a Colt will run you only $200 more.

TCz
04-08-2012, 09:02 PM
Mid-length is over-rated.

Don't get me wrong, I like them, and have them, but to hear some people tell it they cure cancer. That just isn't the case.

The more I learn about the AR FOW the more I come to learn that Colt does things that nobody else does. It's largely minutiae to most but better is better.

If someone insists on the mid-length then the BCM or DD are good options.


Rob, I would love to hear more about the minutiae, if you have the time, and don't mind explaining it. That sort of thing interests me like nothing else.

fuse
04-09-2012, 12:33 AM
Edit: moved to the other thread

TCinVA
04-09-2012, 07:44 AM
Rob, I would love to hear more about the minutiae, if you have the time, and don't mind explaining it. That sort of thing interests me like nothing else.

I'm not Rob and I'm certainly not opposed to him putting together some of what he's discovered about the manufacture of the AR family of weapons (which I think would be a fascinating read and I'd enjoy the epic waves of butthurt it would probably produce on gun forums), but perhaps something like this blurb from a blog Tam pointed to from her blog will give you some idea of what is involved:

http://neanderpundit.com/index.php?paged=37



The upper receiver on an AR is machined in several steps, and the brilliance of the original Stoner design is that the critical dimensions are machined all in one operation. This means that the bore that houses the bolt carrier group, the mounting surface of the barrel, and the centerline of the threads are all in precise alignment, or as precise as the stated accuracy of the machine. In other words, if the bolt carrier bore is done in one op, and the part is removed from the machine and placed in a different fixture to do the threads, the liklihood of the threads not being concentric with the bore is accentuated. There are some manufacturers that do this, with varied results. This is the kind of “Tolerance stack” that is due not to bad design, or the misunderstanding of the design by the machinist, but to a failure to understand the process. The critical machining must be completed without removing the part from the machine


Seemingly little details in how the weapon is made make a huge difference in the end product. People like to believe that two rifles which look generally the same are generally the same, and that's just not true. Most people are not engineers who are deeply knowledgeable about the manufacturing process or the intricacies of the designs they often chat about on the internet.

Frankly it's a testament to the genius of Stoner's design that there can be so many people out there incompetently manufacturing or assembling AR pattern rifles and yet so many of them still work reasonably well.

rob_s
04-09-2012, 08:04 AM
TC that's an excellent example.

Most people do not realize that the vast majority of the commercially available ARs are "designed" via reverse engineering. What gets lost in this process is that oftentimes the "how" matters as much as the "what", and that things like materiality matter, as does the "how" and "what" of said materials.

fuse
04-09-2012, 09:46 AM
Frankly it's a testament to the genius of Stoner's design that there can be so many people out there incompetently manufacturing or assembling AR pattern rifles and yet so many of them still work reasonably well.

True that. My 2 completely home-built Ar15s have been great (one of them a 14.5 middy) , albeit with rather light use. I'm definitely not the sharpest tool in the shed, and I somehow got it right. Twice.

However, I used what I would call very high quality parts, and thus didn't really save any money by rolling it myself. Though it did get to build them exactly the way I wanted from the start.

ToddG
04-09-2012, 10:02 AM
Most people do not realize that the vast majority of the commercially available ARs are "designed" via reverse engineering. What gets lost in this process is that oftentimes the "how" matters as much as the "what", and that things like materiality matter, as does the "how" and "what" of said materials.

Reminds me of all the questions I'd get while working at Beretta regarding the Taurus PT92 line of pistols. "Aren't they the same?"

Yes, yes they are. Unless you count materiel quality, engineering precision, quality control, etc. etc. etc.

TCz
04-09-2012, 08:10 PM
I read the Neanderpundit posts when Tam linked to them, and found them to be very enlightening. In fact, they are one of the things that decided me on getting an AR at all. However, while it has wonderful descriptions of how a good AR is put together, it doesn't talk about which companies actually do these things, which is one of the things I was hoping to get from this thread.

Jay Cunningham
04-09-2012, 08:47 PM
There's this little thing called "The Chart"... Google it and see what you get.

Or you could just goto Rob's TYV site.

TCz
04-09-2012, 09:34 PM
There's this little thing called "The Chart"... Google it and see what you get.

Or you could just goto Rob's TYV site.

The Chart is interesting, but it seems as though many companies just use it a shopping list of "things they have to have because it's Mil-Spec". I still wonder which companies actually go to the effort of making a good AR. For example, Pamletto State and Spike's Tactical make all of the same noises about mil-spec, "properly" staked gas keys, MPT, proof testing etc... that Colt, DD, and BCM do. Why does a Colt cost 50% more for a basic carbine? I am willing to bet that it is the minutiae that Rob was speaking of. For example, let's talk about Magnetic Particle Testing (MPT). This is a relatively straightforward process to test for flaws in ferromagnetic materials. It's been around a long time, and there are well-established procedures for proper application of this test. However, nothing prevents a company from doing this test in a superficial way, or just plain doing it wrong. Performing MPT on a part in the wrong orientation, with the wrong materials, or just in a half-assed way could easily cause a flaw to go unnoticed, but the part has been "tested". If it's been "tested", it's gotta be good, right? I'd be willing to bet that at their price point, Palmetto and Spike's cut a few corners somewhere in there. Hell, even Colt's probably cut a few.

Now that we have established that Colt is the gold standard for a hard-use carbine, with honorable mentions for DD and BCM, I'm asking for specifics on what makes them that way. However, I understand if y'all don't have the time or inclination to school a random kid on the internet; I certainly won't fault you for having a real-world life.

Also, maybe I'm being dense, but what is the TYV site?
ETA: I was being dense. Found it. And I'm now in for a lot of reading.

Odin Bravo One
04-09-2012, 10:04 PM
TYV= Tactical Yellow Visor.

It is Rob S's contribution to the shooting community using many of the lessons he has learned over the past few years. Some worthwhile reading material there......including "The Chart".

Colt, DD, and FNH all make "MilSpec" AR's. Not MilSpec parts assembled to whatever standard, or some MilSpec standard. All three, by law MUST conform to a very specific set of standards, as all provide AR variants to the DoD, i.e., "MilSpec". Those standards are listed in the requirements documents and contract. Failure to adhere to those standards results in breach of contract, and as Bushmaster discovered, is NOT the way to the DoD's wallet for future contracts, or even continuing contracts.

I can't speak to DD or FNH, but Colt has found it much more economically viable to simply produce all of their AR line of products to the same standard, rather than run the risk that a non-MilSpec/commercial component ends up on an Army gun.

Colt also has the most time on the block, and as such, has more corporate knowledge than any of the other manufacturers out there. Not to mention that the Colt and DD guns are in use in the harshest conditions in the world, use standard carbine and rifle length gas systems, and continue to work just fine when properly maintained.

Le Français
04-09-2012, 10:26 PM
I can't speak to DD or FNH, but Colt has found it much more economically viable to simply produce all of their AR line of products to the same standard, rather than run the risk that a non-MilSpec/commercial component ends up on an Army gun.


Very interesting. Can anyone else comment on Daniel Defense's approach regarding this issue? Are the commercial guns different from the ones built to military specification?

fuse
04-09-2012, 10:58 PM
Only DD knows for sure, but if you were to ask them, what do you think their public affairs dept would say?

JDM
04-09-2012, 11:05 PM
All one needs to do is compare a DoD owned Daniel Defense rifle, with a commercially purchased model.

Le Français
04-09-2012, 11:06 PM
Only DD knows for sure, but if you were to ask them, what do you think their public affairs dept would say?

SeanM, apparently, has knowledge of how Colt deals with this issue. My guess is that some on this forum might have information regarding DD's approach that they are willing to share. My question was directed towards them.

TCz
04-09-2012, 11:07 PM
TYV= Tactical Yellow Visor.

It is Rob S's contribution to the shooting community using many of the lessons he has learned over the past few years. Some worthwhile reading material there......including "The Chart".


I wasn't trying to say the Chart was worthless, far from it. Just that it has limited usefulness without the rest of the picture. Little did I know that it was linked to a site with as much info as the tactical yellow visor. I predict a drinking from the fire hose situation...

jmjames
04-09-2012, 11:29 PM
Colt, DD, and FNH all make "MilSpec" AR's.

[snip]

I can't speak to DD or FNH, but Colt has found it much more economically viable to simply produce all of their AR line of products to the same standard, rather than run the risk that a non-MilSpec/commercial component ends up on an Army gun.

This is actually why I am not so quick to dismiss Palmetto State ARs. I know they source barrels from FN, and they seem to have a close working relationship with FN (there's an FN plant in Columbia, not far from PSA... FN seems to loan PSA a lot of guns that PSA doesn't actually carry for their "FN Friday" picture posts on Facebook). Also, PSA went from "new company" to "known" in something like a *year*, it is very hard to ramp up like that without some partners who have a lot of capacity. While I don't know for sure, I would not be shocked (and indeed, I'd put $5 on it) if FN is sourcing an awful lot of their stuff.

J.Ja

BWT
04-09-2012, 11:29 PM
Going to echo alot of what you've heard here.

Colt, BCM, LMT, DD, Noveske, Larue, KAC, would all do fine.

I'd say BCM is probably the most affordable. Speaking from my experience with mine and my father's, I've probably put 3,000-ish rounds through it in the last year and a half, two years, I'm happy with it.

I'm disappointed they don't have full rifles available currently. I bought a complete lower receiver group and complete upper receiver group, my father purchased just the whole rifle back when it was available. But, expect around $950-1,000.

Enough people have pushed those rifles hard enough (I'll be honest, I have seen no torture tests of Larue rifles, so maybe I should remove them before I endorse them, but I know they make quality mounts, and used to be 1911 parts), that I could say with confidence buy that.

That being said, I like the midlength. I like the longest gas system reliable for said rifle, I see no reason to run a shorter gas tube (I mean... it runs at a higher pressure, let's be honest) in a 16'' gun (and let's be honest, everything with the exception of a 6933, we've recommended is a 16'' AR), that gives less real estate for the handguard, and runs at higher pressures.

If we were talking 14'' and shorter, I'd say sure, run a carbine length gas tube. But also, I personally don't like the way, and I know I might get murdered for this, the M4 Barrel looks in a 16'' configuration, with a carbine gas system, I figure, if you're going to go 16''. Go 16'', take advantage of every feature of 16'', long handguards and a longer gas tube, embrace the fact you have a 16'' barrel. I run wolf, silverbear, etc, almost exclusively, and as long as the gun's chamber is cleaned every 400-600 rounds and the gun is lubricated, I've never had an issue.

And let's go ahead and talk Warranties, I mean, it was alluded to "Factory guns" have "Factory Warranties". Colt has a 1 year warranty, one reason I recommended BCM was a life time warranty. I don't know DD's Warranty. But their warranty at least seems eager to take care of their customers. https://danieldefense.com/faq

Let me tell you, Every manufacturer puts out lemons, and honestly, I usually find the lemons. I found that to be the case with my Dan Wesson CBOB and Arsenal SGL 21 and those are both supposed to be what if you asked the majority of people that buy guns in those markets Pretty good quality guns, not the best on the market, not the semi-custom, but, expensive enough and reputable enough, they should work, and they should not have the problems I had from the Factory, period. They're not the top of the market, but definitely above average they both had to go back to the factory, to say "Oh you buy quality, you'll never face the manufacturer", eh... stuff breaks, it happens. Also, I'll be honest... it took some finagling to get either one to finally get on board with servicing their product, Arsenal told me no at first, and I was sitting there with a Factory NIB, never been fired SGL21-71, going... I can't believe this is happening. Consider it.

ETA: It was also a situation where the pistol grip that I had installed on that Arsenal SGL21, should've voided my warranty and if they followed the letter of their policy, they could've declined me service. Also, if I didn't have the Factory box and packaging, after a couple of calls, and a few emails, they would not accept the rifle back. Let me spell it out, you put an american made magazine in that gun, you've voided your warranty. http://www.arsenalinc.com/usa/pages.php?pageid=26 Go ahead and tell me I'm exaggerating.


Failure to provide proper care and maintenance, abuse and/or misuse, improper ammunition and/or magazine, unauthorized adjustments, repairs, or modification, any replacement of factory installed component with any non-factory proved component will automatically void this warranty.

The Lady I was dealing with was very nice, and after I was initially told there was no issue, told me mail back the gun in Factory configuration (Here's your hint, don't send us pictures of the gun with a different pistol grip for factory issues), I sent it back, they repaired it, refinished the gun and took care of me. I'd still recommend Arsenal AK's, I want another one, but just realize what you're buying and what they're willing to do and not to do for you, if that gun breaks.

The opinion I have on 16'' barrels and carbine gas length systems and what I've seen with warranties is why I might stray from Colt, that and, honestly, I think they're overpriced for what they offer. Just Saying, the 6933 has dropped 100-200$ in last 4-5 years, how many gun manufacturers do you see dropping prices? And guess what that Carbine Length, 11.5'' barrel, M16 BCG gun rolls for the cheapest I can find?

$1300.

http://clydearmory.com/colt-le6933-11-5.html

Now bear in mind, honestly, that's a 11.5'' barrel, the only difference I'm aware of between that gun and the 6920 is, the barrel length and the tax stamp. I really don't understand where that difference comes from, that being said, I saw it at one point going for I believe $1,499 and I've seen it at $1,399. I believe honestly... we might see 1,200$, maybe.

$1,150.

http://clydearmory.com/colt-le6920.html

Now, I'm not going to lie the gun is stripped down, but, the way people adjust things, I don't like the fact the Colt's comes with a carrying handle (and by the way, the carrying handle that both of those guns come with, usually adds about $100 to the cost, so, maybe that's the difference in price in the 6920, but let's be honest... you know the first thing everyone here is going to recommend is get a optic, heck go coast through the first couple of pages, get optics, get good training, so that means from the word go you'll need to sell it, scrap it, whatever and get a rear BUIS).

Also, why you might look at something slimmed down from the factory.

That's why I'd recommend something like this, maybe not from this dealer, or maybe not this particular gun, but, something a bit more like that.

http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=MID-750-C

My recommendations and opinions on gas tube lengths, manufacturers, etc, aside, I don't think you've been given any bad or negligent advice in this thread so far. Stick with those manufacturers, and I don't think you'll have a problem.

Just my $.02.

Suvorov
04-10-2012, 01:17 AM
Failure to adhere to those standards results in breach of contract, and as Bushmaster discovered, is NOT the way to the DoD's wallet for future contracts, or even continuing contracts.

This reminds me of something I've been meaning to ask those in the know: Back in the mid-90s when Bushmaster was Quality Parts, I could swear that they were bragging in their catalogs about supplying the US military with M4s, but based on my experience and knowledge, they never actually did (at least I never saw one).

What is the story here? :confused:

rob_s
04-10-2012, 05:54 AM
This reminds me of something I've been meaning to ask those in the know: Back in the mid-90s when Bushmaster was Quality Parts, I could swear that they were bragging in their catalogs about supplying the US military with M4s, but based on my experience and knowledge, they never actually did (at least I never saw one).

What is the story here? :confused:

I find that most people mis-remember this, but if you can come up with an ad that says they actually supplied them I won't tell you it's fake.

What most people are referring to is the ads that said "milspec" and extrapolated that to "we sell to the government", which is truthfully exactly what the marketing people wanted you to think.

this is an article that I submitted and was published a couple of years ago. I'm probably violating my own copyright, or that of the publisher, by sharing it here so please don't go sending this link to all your friends or re-posting it on barfcom. It explains what "milspec" really means.

link (https://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AamgMm61Ok7WZGc4cnZoZGRfMTQwZDhwYjZ6M2I )

rob_s
04-10-2012, 06:07 AM
This is actually why I am not so quick to dismiss Palmetto State ARs. I know they source barrels from FN, and they seem to have a close working relationship with FN (there's an FN plant in Columbia, not far from PSA... FN seems to loan PSA a lot of guns that PSA doesn't actually carry for their "FN Friday" picture posts on Facebook). Also, PSA went from "new company" to "known" in something like a *year*, it is very hard to ramp up like that without some partners who have a lot of capacity. While I don't know for sure, I would not be shocked (and indeed, I'd put $5 on it) if FN is sourcing an awful lot of their stuff.

J.Ja

See the link above.


materials
dimensions
testing
assembly


PSA may very well get 1 and 2 correct simply because they buy from the right places. How do we know if they get ALL of their pieces from the right places, and how do we know they get #3 and 4 correct? I can tell you there has been evidence that they screw up at lase #3 in that several people have had over-clocked barrel extensions.

Pat Rogers says "those who are not required to hold to a standard rarely do" and I find that to be the case. Sooner or later any company that makes a product is going to be tempted by ways to make it cheaper. And the accountants are going to get involved and weigh cost:benefits of that cheapness. I would bet you dollars:donuts that Bushmaster actually had in their corporate documentation somewhere the number of rounds typically fired through one of their guns and the related potential for that gun being fired enough to discover a flaw and actually send it back. For the hobby makers it's not about making fighting tools it's about making money. There's actually nothing wrong with that, but you as a consumer need to know what you're looking for, toys or tools. Dewalt or Black & Decker?

jmjames
04-10-2012, 06:07 AM
Bushmaster does NOT explicitly claim to supply the US military, though they do try to imply it as much as they can:

http://www.bushmaster.com/community-military-index.asp

I also checked DPMS, because I had heard that they were a "military supplier" at one point as well, and their claims are much more weakly stated than Bushmaster's. The upshot is, neither Bushmaster nor DPMS are advertising that they are selling to the US military, but Bushmaster wishes they were. Also of question is *what* Bushmaster is selling to these military customers... is it their AR platform, or something else like the ACR, spare pistol grips and handguards, etc. ?

J.Ja

rob_s
04-10-2012, 06:16 AM
Good point.

Olympic Arms IS a military vendor.

They sell rubber duckies.

Just because someone is a military vendor doesn't meant they are selling the parts or complete assemblies/guns they try to make you think they are.

TCinVA
04-10-2012, 07:09 AM
TYV= Tactical Yellow Visor.

It is Rob S's contribution to the shooting community using many of the lessons he has learned over the past few years. Some worthwhile reading material there......including "The Chart".

Colt, DD, and FNH all make "MilSpec" AR's. Not MilSpec parts assembled to whatever standard, or some MilSpec standard. All three, by law MUST conform to a very specific set of standards, as all provide AR variants to the DoD, i.e., "MilSpec". Those standards are listed in the requirements documents and contract. Failure to adhere to those standards results in breach of contract, and as Bushmaster discovered, is NOT the way to the DoD's wallet for future contracts, or even continuing contracts.

I can't speak to DD or FNH, but Colt has found it much more economically viable to simply produce all of their AR line of products to the same standard, rather than run the risk that a non-MilSpec/commercial component ends up on an Army gun.

Colt also has the most time on the block, and as such, has more corporate knowledge than any of the other manufacturers out there. Not to mention that the Colt and DD guns are in use in the harshest conditions in the world, use standard carbine and rifle length gas systems, and continue to work just fine when properly maintained.

That's pretty much the best advice someone looking for a basic AR purchase is going to get. If you want simple, it's really simple:

1. Buy a Colt 6920
2. Buy an Aimpoint with a good LaRue mount
3. Buy a Surefire light
4. Buy a good quick-adjust 2 point sling

Now one can certainly find "better" choices for certain highly specialized applications, but for a general use 5.56 carbine that's a simple recipe that has proven to work very well time and time again.

jmjames
04-10-2012, 09:52 AM
Speaking of that purchasing list, Jay's got a great looking build at a great price in the WTS section, a DD for $2100 with that same list of accessories. That's just about the same price you'd pay for the same build off a Colt, and you'll be getting a rail out of the deal and some upgraded goodies, at the expense of 2,000 rounds through it. If the "gun money" envelope in my desk drawer had $2,100 in it right now, I'd have bought it already.

J.Ja

Jay Cunningham
04-10-2012, 10:04 AM
That's a Daniel Defense factory gun (Vickers Limited Edition) and it is sold pending funds. ;-)

Oh, and it's a carbine gas system. OH TEH NOES!!1 :-)

Great setup but the gun rack was getting pretty redundant. Sometimes you clean house and drive on.

Suvorov
04-10-2012, 10:07 AM
I find that most people mis-remember this, but if you can come up with an ad that says they actually supplied them I won't tell you it's fake.

What most people are referring to is the ads that said "milspec" and extrapolated that to "we sell to the government", which is truthfully exactly what the marketing people wanted you to think.

this is an article that I submitted and was published a couple of years ago. I'm probably violating my own copyright, or that of the publisher, by sharing it here so please don't go sending this link to all your friends or re-posting it on barfcom. It explains what "milspec" really means.

link (https://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AamgMm61Ok7WZGc4cnZoZGRfMTQwZDhwYjZ6M2I )

Thanks. I think those flyers/catalogs were are long gone. I have no problem believing that they were skirting the truth quite a bit, back in the pre-internet days you would hear a lot at gun shows and have no way of verifying it. Hell I even remember when DPMS retailers were telling me they were supplying parts to Colt :rolleyes:


Bushmaster does NOT explicitly claim to supply the US military, though they do try to imply it as much as they can:

Well we DO KNOW that they supplied the Georgian Military ;)

fuse
04-10-2012, 01:36 PM
That being said, I like the midlength. I like the longest gas system reliable for said rifle, I see no reason to run a shorter gas tube (I mean... it runs at a higher pressure, let's be honest) in a 16'' gun (and let's be honest, everything with the exception of a 6933, we've recommended is a 16'' AR), that gives less real estate for the handguard, and runs at higher pressures.



So much this.

rob_s
04-10-2012, 02:00 PM
So much this.

with no data or anything else to support it?

I find it interesting that the mid-length has so taken over the enthusiast market based on nothing more than "because I said so".

The sight radius/handguard thing is nice, and obvious, but also is so easily negated the instant you put anything other than plastic handguards on the gun. Shave the FSB and put a free-float on and it is ENTIRELY negated. put an optic of any kind on and relegate the iron sight, rail or barrel-mounted, to backup duty and it's largely negated.

I realize we now have two competing threads on this topic and we probably should have just addressed them all in one thread, but this seemingly fanatical love for the mid-length is an odd study in marketing and psychology.

"because lower pressure" is kind of meaningless if we don't understand how much lower, what actual, quantifiable benefit it produces, and whether or not there are any negatives associated with it.

fuse
04-10-2012, 09:20 PM
I find it interesting that the mid-length has so taken over the enthusiast market based on nothing more than "because I said so".



I have generally run Colt rifles with carbine length gas systems like the 6520, 6920, and 6720 for the last 2 decades--these work great. Recently I have begun to use 16" mid-length rifles from quality vendors like MSTN, BCM, Centurian, and LaRue--these also work fantastically. The mid-length gas systems subjectively have less felt recoil and anecdotally appear to offer a longer lifespans based on reports from several dozen in service the past 4 years or so.

Both work as long as they are built correctly.


What is good enough for this 'enthusiast' is good enough for me.


Reading my previous posts, I believe I have perhaps painted a picture I did not entirely intend to paint.

Obviously the 6920 is great. Obviously. If there had been any available when I got into the AR game (height of the Obama nonsense) I would own one.

But I am kind of glad I don't, for all the reasons mentioned. Obsolete is too strong a term for a carbine length gas system with a 16" barrel and I retract it. hows about, "a bit behind the times"?



The sight radius/handguard thing is nice, and obvious, but also is so easily negated the instant you put anything other than plastic handguards on the gun. Shave the FSB and put a free-float on


what if I want to keep the front sight as is, AND have a longer simple handguard? should a new shooter be worrying about such things as free float HGs?



"because lower pressure" is kind of meaningless if we don't understand how much lower, what actual, quantifiable benefit it produces, and whether or not there are any negatives associated with it.


What if I shoot it better? What if everyone seems to shoot it better? What if everyone who tries it comes to the same subjective opinion?

...

I am in the navy, in a job about as far away from guns as possible. However, I recently had a chance to qual with the M4.

It was awesome. There I am, in Washington, DC, on a military base, in a dark indoor range shooting iron sight 3 position rifle at a reduced target at 25 meters. With a real select-fire colt M4. Actually I was really surprised the lower was engraved "COLT AR-15". They really are basically the same as what the military gets! minus the happy switch, of course.

Again, I do not shoot my rifles much (you probably shoot more rifle in an average month than I will this year) At the time, I had not shot my crap carbine length bushmaster in a while (with 5.56/.223 anyway, its my dedicated .22LR conversion gun now) but had recently used my 14.5 mid-length at the PF.com Veteran's Day clinic.

The Colt felt like it was shaking itself apart. It was crazy. It did work, though, for the 50 or so rounds I got to shoot through it. It violently worked. maybe that one was over-gassed.

I admit, this is simply anecdotal and completely subjective. and my 14.5 middy and the Colt, while they have the same barrel length of 14.5" are built completely differently (HG, optic, stock, all different) so the comparison is nowhere near exact. But to me, it was a no-brainer that I made the right call in purchasing what I did.




this seemingly fanatical love for the mid-length is an odd study in marketing and psychology.


I could say the same thing about recommending a dated design mostly because

1. The military uses it
2. The manufacturer has been making it a long time.

regarding option 1: I know the military is generally pretty well-served by their M4s. but the military is also about as agile as a container ship. I mean seriously. We use windows XP. (http://gizmodo.com/5626970/hp-holds-navy-network-hostage-for-33-billion) There are no plans to upgrade. Last year (not in 2010 like the article says) we finally got outlook 2007. oh happy day. Our network is generally shit, and at a cost exponentially higher of what it should be.

Perhaps I am a bit jaded and this analogy is totally invalid and offtopic. that will be my cross to bear.

regarding option 2: Lettuce list the reasons Colt doesn't make a 16" mid-length gun

1. They don't have to
2.
3.
4.
5.

Please help me complete this list.

Again. I wish to emphasize that anyone I see at the range with a 16" Colt 6920 among a sea of bushmasters, RRA, CMMG, olympic, gets my respect and admiration for likely doing research, clearly making an informed choice, and buying just about the best. I just feel there is a slightly better choice in 2012.

TCz
04-10-2012, 11:28 PM
This seemed interesting.

http://vuurwapenblog.com/2010/05/19/beyond-the-chart-factors-affecting-ar-15-reliability/

rob_s
04-11-2012, 05:53 AM
...I just feel...

This may be the problem.

I am looking for data, not feelings and anecdotes. This is not a personal attack, simply an explanation of why we are unlikely to resolve the issue.

rob_s
04-11-2012, 06:04 AM
This seemed interesting.

http://vuurwapenblog.com/2010/05/19/beyond-the-chart-factors-affecting-ar-15-reliability/

That's outdated as it refers to the old version of the Chart, and I would say his article makes several of the reaches and jumps to conclusions without data to support them that the internet as a whole does.

Additionally, chasing gas ports is right up there with the buffer syndrome mentioned elsewhere in this thread. The good news is that when you buy a factory Colt you don't have to worry about it. :D

In fact, I would make the argument that the discussion in the link, other than the typical incomplete information relative to the gas tube length, actually makes a pretty good argument for simply buying the Colt.

seabiscuit
04-11-2012, 08:08 AM
Noob question which probably doesn't even matter when buying Colt, DD, etc.: what's the difference between a .223 chamber and a 5.56 chamber?

EMC
04-11-2012, 10:14 AM
Noob question which probably doesn't even matter when buying Colt, DD, etc.: what's the difference between a .223 chamber and a 5.56 chamber?

This:

http://ammo.ar15.com/ammo/project/ammoOraclePics/556cham.gif

What this means is, you can shoot .223 in a 5.56 chamber, but not the other way around. If you get a Colt/DD/BCM, you will get a 5.56 chamber and then you don't have to worry about it. If you go with a lower tier maker sometimes you get a tight chamber that requires reaming to cycle properly (even if they advertise it as 5.56). This can also cause pressure spiking problems with 5.56 ammunition.

peterb
04-11-2012, 10:17 AM
Noob question which probably doesn't even matter when buying Colt, DD, etc.: what's the difference between a .223 chamber and a 5.56 chamber?

http://le.atk.com/pdf/223VS556.pdf

http://www.armalite.com/images/Tech%20Notes/TECH%20NOTE%2074%20%205.56%20vs%20223%20vs%20Wylde %20090817%20Rev%200.pdf

http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=55149

seabiscuit
04-11-2012, 11:39 AM
Thanks!

fuse
04-11-2012, 01:16 PM
...I just feel...

This may be the problem.

I am looking for data, not feelings and anecdotes. This is not a personal attack, simply an explanation of why we are unlikely to resolve the issue.

Roger that.