RMR design considerations

[GJM]

I have had a long time love/hate relationship with the RMR. I love that Trijicon developed the RMR, love that they improved it with the type 2, love the battery life, love the controls, and love how durable it seems relative to other designs. I hate how small the RMR display seems when shooting it.

Some smart PF member made the observation recently, that a reason the RMR display seems small for its stated size, is part of the display is actually obscured by the emitter housing. Making the display seem even smaller is the backup sight integration with the RMR, which is very different than a design like the RMS Shield that is BUIS friendly. The RMR design probably reconciles the long running debate I have with YVK, who insisted that the published window size of the RMR was similar or larger than the Acro, where I insisted the Acro display seemed much larger than the RMR when shooting both.

This morning, I was shooting a CZ P10C (https://www.brownells.com/firearms/handguns/semi-auto/p-10-compact-9mm-black-4-15-1-threaded-prod98919.aspx?avs%7cMake_3=CZ) with a Type 2 RMR (https://amzn.to/32x8Omx), that I just got back from Primary Machine, and reflecting how much harder it was too shoot than a DP Pro/SRO sized display. That got me looking through the window from the muzzle side, and I took this picture showing how little usable display there is with the RMR, since the BUIS and emitter housing obscure so much of the RMR’s display.

40199

I hope Trijicon figures out to keep the good parts of the RMR, but improves the usable display with the next generation RMR.

[GJM]

I pulled the RMR off the P10C and put an SRO on.

Here is the view from the muzzle end.

40211

The view through the display, same BUIS as in the picture in post one.

40212

And, the whole pistol. Interestingly most of the mass of the SRO is near the belt line.

40213

[Doc_Glock]

That is a huge improvement.

[David S.]

How does the Holoson window compare?

[UNM1136]

That is a huge improvement.

Is it? If the durability is not there? I am thinking the improvement is more calculus than addition. How do we quantify values? What values are iimportant?

pat

[GJM]

Is it? If the durability is not there? I am thinking the improvement is more calculus than addition. How do we quantify values? What values are iimportant?

pat

Have to define durability. I don’t plan to drop my optic on large rocks, and if I do, I will replace it. What I do want is an optic that is more shootable than a RMR, integrates well with BUIS, and holds up to high round count shooting. Others of course, may have different priorities.

[UNM1136]

Have to define durability. I don’t plan to drop my optic on large rocks, and if I do, I will replace it. What I do want is an optic that is more shootable than a RMR, integrates well with BUIS, and holds up to high round count shooting. Others of course, may have different priorities.

Not sure we disagree. I think your standards are reasonable, and not reasonably met currently. I also would like a larger, more shootable optic. Uncle Pat used to say that firearms stuff tends to be evolutionary rather than revolutionary. Those of us running MRDS need to be open and honest about the positives and the negatives. 70% solutions, if the skillsets are there will lead to 90% solutions. The RMR is NOT perfect. But it may be the best of the currently available. If only by a couple of points.

I have seen dropped guns in relatively low stress situations. I have attended training where recovering a dropped pistol was the focus. Like I said, calculus vs. Addition. The more variables involved the harder the math.

Each shooter needs to find a line in the sand to stand upon. Those that choose MRDS on carry pistols need to be satisfied that the positives out weigh the negatives.

pat

[GJM]

Not sure we disagree. I think your standards are reasonable, and not reasonably met currently. I also would like a larger, more shootable optic. Uncle Pat used to say that firearms stuff tends to be evolutionary rather than revolutionary. Those of us running MRDS need to be open and honest about the positives and the negatives. 70% solutions, if the skillsets are there will lead to 90% solutions. The RMR is NOT perfect. But it may be the best of the currently available. If only by a couple of points.

I have seen dropped guns in relatively low stress situations. I have attended training where recovering a dropped pistol was the focus. Like I said, calculus vs. Addition. The more variables involved the harder the math.

Each shooter needs to find a line in the sand to stand upon. Those that choose MRDS on carry pistols need to be satisfied that the positives out weigh the negatives.

pat

I really do think it is a personal decision, and different people may come to reasonable, but different conclusions on red dot or not, or what red dot optic. A set up with a RMR and BUIS like I posted above, with so much of the display obscured, is close to tipping the scale to preferring iron sights for me.

I am hoping people aren’t intentionally tossing their red dot equipped pistols on the ground during training, when they could use a blue gun. I haven’t attended that kind of training, but do folks toss carbines with $2,000 LPV scopes?

[UNM1136]

I think you are right.

I am afraid I was not as clear as I could be earlier today, as I was reading and posting as my meds kicked in, leaving me really, really drowsy.

To be more clear: I by and large agree with you. If the display were any smaller I would question the utility. I have not carried my RMR'd Glock at work yet, and have been running a visible laser for the last dozen or so years. I place the durability/reliability pretty high up on the list. When you teach at basic academies and/or inservice training you see some strange things. Heck, on a couple of occasions I have seen shooters retrieving tritium capsules off the ground during night shoots when the capsule parted company from the night sights.

No intentional grounding of guns; a few accidents, though. The recovery drills were from officer survival exercises where the shooter was coached individually, and the drill was set up with the firearm on the ground, with or without a malfunction of some sort that might or might not have needed to be corrected one handed. Also, no carbines tossed, but more than a couple of carbines dropped when slings are not properly installed. We used to require a sling on all rifles showing up to class, and had to add a few minutes to the classroom instruction to insure they were correctly installed. Many cops showing up to a basic carbine course between about 2005 and 2012 or so were issued their gear and told to go to class, not because they were interested in shooting rifles, but because the departments were around here were trying to get as many rifles on the road as possible.

Sorry for the confusion.

pat

[BigT]

Ive broken a number of red dots. All from shooting, none from dropping. While I get that a duty situation may require a focus on being able to survive a drop in concrete that lands on the optic itself, but on a CCW I am far more concerned about the ability to hold up to shooting.

[GJM]

With the RMR on the CZ P10C, I ran Gabe’s test and really struggled to make the turbo times. Ran them again with the SRO on the P10C, and made the times with room to spare.

The RMR definitely slows me down up close, compared to iron sights or other red dot optics like the SRO and DP Pro.

[jeffhughes]

With the RMR on the CZ P10C, I ran Gabe’s test and really struggled to make the turbo times. Ran them again with the SRO on my P10, and made the times with room to spare.

The RMR definitely slows me down up close, compared to iron sights or other red dot optics like the SRO and DP Pro.

I’m 56, reading and distance suck. I’m a barely B class shooter who doesn’t practice enough. Good fundamentals, trained at USSA in the old days. Trained with Spencer Keepers. I took Gabe’s class pretty darn cold. 3/4 light times, 1 dark. I took that class with a stock G17 gen 5 that I shoot high with.(hd slim sights)

I’m looking forward to setting up my new P10c and P10F, one with SRO and one with an Acro and running the test again. I’m equally cold. Work shit is changing and I’m gonna get to shoot more...hope to be solid Light times this years class....