Innocuous looking carbine for a petite young lady to tote long distances?

[frozentundra]

My daughter has been shooting AR pattern rifles in .22 or 5.56 for almost as long as she can remember. That form factor is really friendly for small people due to it's compact size, light weight, and adjustable length of pull. She already has a nice BCM with ELW-F upper, but I think we could use something that's less scary to plant-eating tourists and hikers. Even an unloaded M&P 15-22 in muddy girl camo seems to elicit fear responses from people who more readily accept the presence of traditional looking "hunting" rifles. The older DNR officers seem a little biased here as well.

This year she'll be turning 13 and has completed her hunters safety course, so she'll be toting her own rifle while out on public land. Uses would include close range deer hunting, target shooting/rifle training, occasional varmint hunting, extremely unlikely defensive use against back-country critters or goblins, but primarily it'll just be carried a ton in order to learn how to live life with a rifle to hand. It'll probably get knocked around real good on a regular basis.

We already stock 5.56 and 7.62x39 for other rifles, but I've also been thinking about 30-30. I do like the idea of cheaper ammo for volume of practice.

So far I've been looking at:
Ruger American Ranch in .223 or 7.62x39---This looks nice except for the LOP, which I could probably modify myself.

CZ 527 youth in .223 or 7.62x39---Backwards safety, problems with the stock cracking, 16mm scope mounts, and magazines make me hesitate here.

16" lever action rifle---I don't know much about lever guns at all. I suppose ammo would be more expensive. Not sure about ballistics vs recoil vs caliber in a short barrel.


In short: handy little carbine, of politically correct type, that's optimized for a petite girl to lug around everywhere and shoot the piss out of it. I'd really appreciate any advice from P-Fers. Thanks!

[David S.]

Ruger 77 in .357? (https://ruger.com/products/77Series77357/specSheets/7405.html) May have to shorten the LOP, tho.

[peterb]

Tikka T3x Compact?
https://www.tikka.fi/rifles/tikka-t3x/t3x-compact-0

[whomever]

I wish Ruger made an American stock with the interchangeable comb/Length of pull inserts like they do for several other rifles. Maybe someday.

Random possibilities:

1)Marlin makes a 336Y with a 12.75 LOP

2)Ruger makes a Compact American with a 12.5 LOP, but not in 223. They do make a 243 if that might work.
You might be able to buy just the stock and put it on a Ranch (but alas, only the proprietary magazine versions).

3)Here's a vid of a fellow shortening an American stock, if you or your gunsmith likes projects:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95vqHW5kk30

FWIW, I've looked at Boyd's and Magpul replacement stocks for a Ruger Ranch, and decided that it wasn't a light handy carbine anymore with them.

[ACP230]

CZ and Howa make bolt-action carbines in 7.62 X 39.
The magazines are detachable and protrude from the stock a bit.
Would that make them "scary" as well?

[nalesq]

My first “walkabout” shoulder-fired centerfire weapon as a young teenager was a World War Two era M1 Carbine. Back then, though, M1 Carbines and mags and ammo for it were quite cheap and plentiful. Don’t think that is the case anymore, unfortunately.




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[TGS]

I think a compact bolt action in 7.62x39 is the ticket. It sounds like you have a preference for the Ruger American, so you should go for that. It will be more accurate than a lever action and a better optics platform....I personally find these compact intermediate cartridge bolt guns to be handier than intermediate cartridge lever guns (which I find comparatively unwieldy; YMMV). To get the same comfortable to carry handiness factor with a lever gun, I feel like you need to drop down to pistol cartridges which doesn't quite fit what you're looking for as well.

7.62x39 has a good offering of loads these days. She won't be limited to corrosive COMBLOC surplus like decades past when people were picking SKSs out the 55 gallon drums at gunshows for $70 a pop. She can certainly buy cheap steel case ammo for plinking, but there is affordable, readily available quality brass case ammo available that is usually preferred for the bolt guns (or so I've heard).

There's also premium line ammo in 7.62x39 available that makes it an outstanding medium game cartridge just the same as any traditional American game cartridge. The Hornady SST comes to mind. Shooting varmints? Use 8M3 ammo and watch them explode.

[SecondsCount]

Tikka T3x Compact?
https://www.tikka.fi/rifles/tikka-t3x/t3x-compact-0

This would be my choice, in 223, loaded with the 75 grain Gold Dot or Hornady ELD.

Or the Mini Howa in 6.5 Grendel. You can buy the barreled actions and get whatever stock that would fit her best.

[HCM]

I've had my 527 for over 10 years. very happy with it. I believe the newer threaded barrel models have a synthetic stock.

Will the Magpul stock work with Ruger Americans in 223/300BO/7.62 ? It has spacers which would simplify your stock issues.

[pangloss]

I think TGS had a lot of good points. You could build something up from a Howa mini action. Brownell's has barrelled actions in several calibers. Tonight they show a 6.5 Grendel with a 20" barrel for $360 (LINK (https://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/receiver-parts/receivers/barreled-receivers/1500-6-5-grendel-20-threaded-heavy-barreled-mini-action-prod113624.aspx)). They also have .223, .300BLK, and 7.62x39. Boyd's has stocks down to at least 12.75" LOP (before pad, I think) and you can get laminates with pink in them.

However, if you really want to stick with a semi-auto, maybe you could cut down the stock on an Ares SCR. I've never even seen an SCR in person, so this might be a terrible idea.

EDIT: SecondsCount beat me to it!

[MolonLabe416]

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/811165381


Manufacturer: TAYLOR’S & COMPANY FIREARMS/CHIAPPA
Model: ALASKAN TAKE DOWN
SPECIFICATIONS:
Mfg Item Num: 920.349
Category: RIFLE
Action :LEVER ACTION
Caliber :.357 MAG
Barrel Length :16"
Trigger :---
OAL :34”
Weight :5.9 LBS
Stock :BLACK
Metal Finish :STAINLESS
Muzzle :---
Sights :RED FIBER OPTIC FRONT, SKINER REAR
Other Features: The Alaskan combines tradition with modern technology creating one of the fastest handling 1892 Lever Action Rifles designed specifically for the hunting market. A take-down rifle chambered in caliber .44RM or .357 Mag, and featuring the time-proven 1892 action, the Alaskan delivers serious knock-down power when using Hornady Lever evolution ammunition which the action is specifically tuned for. The sights are Skinner Express style while the barrel is drilled and tapped for "Scout Mount" optics and Weaver 61 bases. The stock and forend are made of wood with overmolded rubber "soft touch" finish, the comfortable butt stock is made of anti-shock rubber. Distributed exclusively by Taylor's Tactical.

[OlongJohnson]

I've handled a Chiappa Alaskan in .44M at an LGS, and it was as smooth as I wish Marlins were. Also cost what it would cost to make Marlins that smooth. I won't recommend a Marlin unless you're willing to take on a project to make it right.

I like the Tikka and Howa actions a lot for a bolt gun.


...if you really want to stick with a semi-auto, maybe you could cut down the stock on an Ares SCR. I've never even seen an SCR in person, so this might be a terrible idea.

This was actually my first thought. It basically adapts the recoil system of a Remington 1100 shotgun to an AR upper. Any AR upper will go on, just like with an AR lower. Only change you'll need will be mounting the optics lower due to the conventional butt stock design. They come with a black polymer stock, but take a Remington 1100/870 12ga buttstock, so in theory, anything that will go on one of those will work. You could do a matching Boyd's butt stock and AR handguard. Then you can have a .223/5.56 upper for plinking and practice and a 6.8 or 6.5G or 7.62x39 or .300 BO upper for knocking over Bambi.

[elsquid]

CZ 527 youth in .223 or 7.62x39---Backwards safety, problems with the stock cracking, 16mm scope mounts, and magazines make me hesitate here.


CZ offers a carbine with a synthetic stock, though it appears to be unlisted on their website.

https://grabagun.com/cz-527-7-62x39-syn-carbine-18-5.html

They do exist; I bought one from grabagun a while back.

— Michael

[NH Shooter]

This would be my choice, in 223, loaded with the 75 grain Gold Dot or Hornady ELD.

This. The Tikka Compact in .223 has a 1:8 twist making it a good choice for 75 grain slugs. Every other bolt gun I've looked at in .223 is 1:9 or slower.

[nycnoob]

My daughter has been shooting AR pattern rifles in .22 or 5.56 for almost as long as she can remember. That form factor is really friendly for small people due to it's compact size, light weight, and adjustable length of pull. She already has a nice BCM with ELW-F upper, but I think we could use something that's less scary to plant-eating tourists and hikers. Even an unloaded M&P 15-22 in muddy girl camo seems to elicit fear responses from people who more readily accept the presence of traditional looking "hunting" rifles.


I say you are looking at this whole thing backwards. If people are afraid of guns then changing the brand or style is not going to make friends for you. Instead there has to be a way to turn her existing BCM into a breakdown rifle. Currently our military is using this kit for M4 carbines.


http://cryhavoctac.com/qrb-kit.html

https://taskandpurpose.com/air-force-ejection-survival-packs-rifle

Now get a knapsack in some bright colors and you are all set. She gets to shoot the rifle she wants and she can carry it to your hunting spot without any undue fuss. I live in NYC and if guns are involved the crowd will never be happy. I don't try and please them, I just try to be discrete with my weapons.

40130 401314013240133

[Kyle Reese]

Have you considered the Steyr Scout rifle? They're available in .223, .308 and 6.5 CM, and they are handy, lightweight and seem to fit the bill for your requirements....

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[Clark Jackson]

I think a compact bolt action in 7.62x39 is the ticket. It sounds like you have a preference for the Ruger American, so you should go for that.

7.62x39 has a good offering of loads these days.

Concur.

If you already stock .223 and 7.62x39 it makes sense to go Ruger American in one of the two. For your stated end use I think 7.62x39 is the better choice.

And, if it's ever an option for you, the Ruger American with a Dead Air Nomad is a nice set up.

[TGS]

I would also start thinking about optics.

No point in buying a short, lightweight carbine if you're going to slap any random optic on it instead of a dedicated lightweight one. I think a lot of people get fixated on pure performance of the scope instead of what is realistically needed, and end up with something too heavy. If it were me, I'd go with low-to-mid power and an objective lens smaller than 36mm. Something like these would do nicely:

Leopold 2.5-8x36 VX-3i (https://www.swfa.com/leupold-2-5-8x36-vx-3i-riflescope.html?___SID=U)

Leopold 2-7x33 VXR (https://www.swfa.com/leupold-2-7x33-vx-r-30mm-riflescope.html?___SID=U)

Swarovski 3-9x36 Z3 (https://www.swfa.com/swarovski-3-9x36-z3-riflescope.html?___SID=U)

Or, if you really want to prioritize lightweight yet durable, Trijicon makes a 7.62x39 3x ACOG (https://www.swfa.com/trijicon-3x24-compact-acog-rifle-scope-49.html?___SID=U). I'd stay away from the tactical rifle oriented low power variables. 1) They're heavier than the above options, twice the weight or more if you get the 1-8x ones 2) Unless she's doing room clearing, she doesn't need a 1x scope.

[Clusterfrack]

The Ruger American Ranch (https://ruger.com/products/americanRifleRanch/specSheets/16976.html) in 7.62x39 looks really good. It takes Mini-30 mags.

40146

Also, what about a Mini-30? Not too tactical...

40145

[Clark Jackson]

The Ruger American Ranch (https://ruger.com/products/americanRifleRanch/specSheets/16976.html) in 7.62x39 looks really good. It takes Mini-30 mags.

Clusterfrack just changed my mind. I would go with the Ruger American Ranch in 7.62x39 (or in .223) over the Predator.

Good call. And it still comes with a threaded barrel. Nice.

[Clusterfrack]

Wow, 5.8oz including mount for the ACOG 3x. That’s awesome. The whole rifle could come in well under 7 lbs loaded, with a sling.


I would also start thinking about optics.

No point in buying a short, lightweight carbine if you're going to slap any random optic on it instead of a dedicated lightweight one.
...
Or, if you really want to prioritize lightweight yet durable, Trijicon makes a 7.62x39 3x ACOG (https://www.swfa.com/trijicon-3x24-compact-acog-rifle-scope-49.html?___SID=U). I'd stay away from the tactical rifle oriented low power variables. 1) They're heavier than the above options, twice the weight or more if you get the 1-8x ones 2) Unless she's doing room clearing, she doesn't need a 1x scope.

[mmc45414]

The Ruger American Ranch (https://ruger.com/products/americanRifleRanch/specSheets/16976.html) in 7.62x39 looks really good. It takes Mini-30 mags.
40146
Just a couple hours ago I shot my new RA-Ranch in 300BO and am pretty glad I bought it, seem s pretty cool for what it costs. So far I have a the SIG Romeo 5 knockoff on it and that might be a nice combination (low enough on the provided rail).

[frozentundra]

The Ruger American Ranch (https://ruger.com/products/americanRifleRanch/specSheets/16976.html) in 7.62x39 looks really good. It takes Mini-30 mags.

40146


I've been leaning hard toward the Ruger American Ranch in 7.62x39 for a while now. If it came with a compact stock, I would have surely purchased one a long time ago. As it is, I'd have to chop a good inch off the stock. A heavier stock totally defeats the purpose of this rifle, to me at least. There is a video on YouTube where someone cuts an American stock up and refits a different buttpad. It looks like chopping off 1" would be pretty easy with this stock, but the butpad would probably hang off the bottom of the stock a tiny bit afterward. Not a big deal to me. I could always reinforce it by epoxying a piece of 3/4" plywood shaped on a disk sander and then riddled with lightening holes if I had to.

I would also start thinking about optics.

No point in buying a short, lightweight carbine if you're going to slap any random optic on it instead of a dedicated lightweight one. I think a lot of people get fixated on pure performance of the scope instead of what is realistically needed, and end up with something too heavy. If it were me, I'd go with low-to-mid power and an objective lens smaller than 36mm. Something like these would do nicely:

Or, if you really want to prioritize lightweight yet durable, Trijicon makes a 7.62x39 3x ACOG (https://www.swfa.com/trijicon-3x24-compact-acog-rifle-scope-49.html?___SID=U). I'd stay away from the tactical rifle oriented low power variables. 1) They're heavier than the above options, twice the weight or more if you get the 1-8x ones 2) Unless she's doing room clearing, she doesn't need a 1x scope.


Wow, 5.8oz including mount for the ACOG 3x. That’s awesome. The whole rifle could come in well under 7 lbs loaded, with a sling.

I don't think I'm ready to drop ACOG money for this rifle quite yet, but that would surely be a sweet setup! I've got a Primary Ams advanced micro dot and a Holosun microdot with ACSS reticle that have both impressed the hell out of me. They are surely made in the same facility. I'd probably start by getting a low QD mount for one of those (probably the Holosun ACSS), and also a QD mount or rings for the SWFA 1-4 with Milquad DM reticle that I already have. They could be swapped back and forth depending on application. I'd be looking to buy a dedicated, lightweight, magnified optic at a later time, after we have some experience using the rifle afield with the other two configurations.

I could totally see this rifle fitted with the front sight from the Ruger PC carbine https://2rdrtx4bt29lo91s31mjhkji-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/Ruger-pistol-caliber-carbine-pcc-survival-gun-review-rifle-hunting-defense-9mm-4.jpg

and a rear like this one from XS sights. https://www.tacticalwholesalers.com/XS-Sight-Systems-XS-Low-Weaver-Backup-Ghost-Ring-WB-2000N-L_p_160600.html?gclid=Cj0KCQjwpavpBRDQARIsAPfTwizj tI3u4lveGnOKG4qRHmrFQWDHGEsmjPguQS3rGX4tf6efT3WWIC 4aAt5KEALw_wcB Although I don't know if that exact pair would line up correctly. Something like this ought to happen.

Sorry that I don't know how to upload the images correctly.



The Howa barreled actions just seem too long to me, especially in 7.62x39. Curious if anybody knows exactly what a lightweight, compact rifle built on the Howa action would weigh in at? If so, what stock would you be using?

Tikka makes damn nice rifles, but they seem a little long and heavy for this application, no? They have the worst website possible. I can't find a lightweight, compact .223 offered in their current lineup.

Marlin youth rifles look cool as hell, too! I got to hold a larger Marlin today in Walmart, and the sights were pretty awesome if you ask me!!

[OlongJohnson]

The Howa barreled actions just seem too long to me, especially in 7.62x39. Curious if anybody knows exactly what a lightweight, compact rifle built on the Howa action would weigh in at? If so, what stock would you be using?

There is a light-profile, 20-inch version. Can always cut and crown it. May not be suppressor-friendly due to the OD, though. There are a bunch of guys over on 24HourCampfire.com who lightened the factory poly stocks and were very happy with the results. Boyd's would probably end up heavier.


Tikka makes damn nice rifles, but they seem a little long and heavy for this application, no? They have the worst website possible. I can't find a lightweight, compact .223 offered in their current lineup.

You're right, the latest version of the site sux. You can also download the catalog: https://www.tikka.fi/sites/default/files/Tikka_rifle_catalogue_2019.pdf

They are actually reasonably lightweight for what they are. Is this what you're looking for? https://www.tikka.fi/en-us/rifles/tikka-t3x/t3x-lite-compact and https://choose.tikka.fi/usa/code/JRTXE312C

6.4 lb isn't ultralight, but it's pretty decent. You should find one and have the girl handle it before writing it off. The Bass Pro near here usually has a decent selection of Tikka, since they are distributed by Beretta.

[Drang]

This just popped up in my Twitter feed, although it looks to be a couple years old: 14 Awesome Rifles and Shotguns Great For Youth Shooters (https://www.getzone.com/14-rifles-shotguns-great-youth-shooters/).

The only other thing I have to add to the conversation is that some folks have interesting ideas about what would constitute an innocuous rifle for a teenaged girl to carry...

[schüler]

This. The Tikka Compact in .223 has a 1:8 twist making it a good choice for 75 grain slugs. Every other bolt gun I've looked at in .223 is 1:9 or slower.The older Tikka .223s came in multiple twists down to 1:12, always good to double check.

[schüler]

...
The Howa barreled actions just seem too long to me, especially in 7.62x39. Curious if anybody knows exactly what a lightweight, compact rifle built on the Howa action would weigh in at? If so, what stock would you be using?


Howa listed weight on these (attached screenshot) is 5.7lbs.

The Tikka JRTXE312C mentioned earlier is listed at 5.9lbs by some vendors.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190716/00a0a6b37b8255f6b64d3f58943abd80.jpg

[frozentundra]

Howa listed weight on these (attached screenshot) is 5.7lbs.

The Tikka JRTXE312C mentioned earlier is listed at 5.9lbs by some vendors. ]

That Howa is a pretty light rifle with a 20" barrel. It'd be neat to chop 4" off the barrel and 1 1/2" off the stock.

I have seen so many different weights and twist rates listed for that Tikka rifle at various vendors! It's weird that it should be so confusing.

Thanks for looking that stuff up!

[JonInWA]

Another vote for the CZ527 in 7.62 x 39. Superb craftsmanship and quite accurate, and a great value at the price.

Ruger Mini/Ranch Rifle is a decent contender, but they've gotten pretty pricey for what they are.

Best, Jon

[StraitR]

Based on how much I've enjoyed a CZ455, I'd likely give the CZ527 Youth Carbine a go if I was looking for a centerfire bolt action for my daughter.

Not sure if I saw this originally here on PF, or while I was researching a bolt for my practical rifle project last year. Either way, it's a pretty good barometer for how this gun will perform in the hands of a young lady.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xkZKseNx9E