Thinking of making a short 11-87

[That Guy]

So I have this Remington 11-87 Express. The gun came with a 28" vent rib barrel that seems ridiculously long to me. I never actually used that barrel, I got a 21" barrel with "rifle" sights that seemed a more reasonable length. However the gun never worked quite reliably, especially with a magazine extension, so it has lately just been sitting in the safe while I got an 870 Police I have had much better success with.

While our new firearms law is meant to be more restricting, one little oopsie they made is shortening the minimum length requirements for long guns rather significantly. Which got me thinking... Since that 11-87 never did work the way I wanted to with a magazine extension, what if I were to make a shorty version of it? Just because I can, and because the anti-gun politicians would freak out if they ever knew they made a gun like that legal. :) I could take that unnecessary 28" barrel (that I am stuck with, anyways, due to legal technicalities) and lop that down to... Well. How short could it go? I know there are 14" version in the US, but couldn't the barrel be shortened a tad more and still be the same length as the hand guard? Or is there some reason why 14" was the length of the short barrel version?

How much skill would shortening the barrel require? Have angle grinder, will cut, or..? Of course for better shot patterns having the cut barrel re-threaded for chokes would probably be the wisest move. Some sort of a sighting system would have to be put on the barrel, but I'm thinking the vent rib could help here.

A simpler choice would of course be to leave the gun as is, perhaps sell the extra barrel and just use the gun for skeet or trap. But not being all that mature, I get a kick out of the idea of creating a gun that until a short time ago would have been incredibly illegal. :)

Before I fire up the ol' angle grinder, has someone here shot one of those short barrel 11-87's? What can you tell me about shooting one?

[Dorsai]

Ok, I'm going to dive in here. Making a semi-auto shotgun work properly is in my opinion, harder than most semi-auto rifles. First, shotguns are normally expected to run with a variety of ammunition ranging from skeet loads up to slugs and buckshot. Low brass, lower pressure, lower velocities up to hard recoiling, high brass, higher pressure rounds. For practice and fun, most people prefer to shoot the lower cost, lower recoiling loads. That doesn't matter with a pump, but it does when you are trying to tap off the right amount of gas. When you shorten a barrel from 28" to say 12", you need to balance the gas port size, recoil spring and magazine spring. These are rough guidelines because I'm not intimately familiar with the gas system of the 11-87, other than the fact that I couldn't get one to run right.
Moving forward, gas ports. The size of the gas port determines how much gas gets in to run the piston. Barrel length past the gas port(s) determines your dwell time, how long there is gas in the barrel before the shot and wad leave the muzzle and pressure in the barrel drops precipitously. When you shorten the barrel down to the handguard and close to the gas port, you reduce the dwell time to almost nothing. That means the port has to be big enough to get all the gas it needs in basically one shot. So you're dumping a big load of very hot, high pressure gas into the port to the piston and op rods.
Your recoil spring both returns the bolt carrier to chamber another round, but it also buffers some of the recoil and is critical to the timing. You fire a round, the shot column moves down the barrel, gas enters the gas port and causes the piston and op rods to push the carrier to the rear, unlock the bolt, extract the spent shell, stop the rearward travel AND start the bolt carrier forward to pick up the next shell that was just placed on the lifter, and chamber it. If the bolt carrier is moving too fast, it may run faster than the shell stops can release the new shell, the magazine spring push it onto the lifter and get the shell up to where it can be loaded into the chamber.

I think you're beginning to see the complexity here. One of the reasons you might have had problems with the 21" barrel is the wrong ammunition. Those barrels are designed to use high brass, high pressure buckshot and slugs. The gas ports are sized appropriately and they don't deliver enough gas to run the system if you're using cheap Winchester 100rd #8 birdshot. If you reduce the barrel length to 12", you are probably going to limit it to one or two loads. Lower pressure won't deliver enough gas and it won't run. Too heavy loads will deliver the gas, but they will overpressure the system and the gun may run, but it will beat itself to death.

Anyway, that is the extent of my knowledge. I KNOW there are people here who know more than I do, both in a general sense and also specific to the 11-87. Good luck with your project!

[Bigghoss]

Should you do it: Yes

How do you do it: I have no idea.

[peterb]

NHShooter might be a good resource:
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?37084-1187P

His comment from another thread:
“A handful of years ago I did some work on a 1187 Premiere that was sitting in the safe feeling unloved. I had the stock shortened by an inch (the most that can be chopped off), the 26-inch pressure-compensated barrel cut to 18-3/4" and the RemChokes reinstalled, and a few other parts and pieces. The project worked out well, and the shortened 1187 cycles perfectly with Federal reduced recoil LE 00 9-pellet buck and slugs.”

[NH Shooter]

Shortened 1187s can be made to operate reliably within limitations. My shortened-from-both-ends Premier handles well for a defensive-use SG and is a blast to shoot.

First step: what is the marking on the barrel? Some are set up for target loads (large gas ports), some 21" versions for hunting with slugs (small gas ports) and others with large ports and pressure compensation for both target and full power loads (Premier barrels).

In the photo below, the pressure compensation feature can be seen on the barrel on the bottom: it's essentially a steel clip that works like a pressure relief valve to bleed off excess pressure;

40128

Mine started off at 26" with large ports and pressure compensation, and is marked for use with 2-3/4" and 3" shells. It was shortened to 18-3/4" and functions just fine with Federal LE reduced-recoil 00 buck (9-pellet) and reduced-recoil slugs, but will not cycle the even lighter reduced-recoil 00 buck 8-pellet loads. Of course, full power loads function fine and the pressure compensation feature minimizes beating-up the action. The 1187 is a soft-shooting SG to start with so the 9-pellet reduced-recoil loads are easy on the shoulder.

Your 28" might be Premier/Field, Trap or Skeet (see chart below). Any can be made to work shortened, but the small gas ports of the Trap barrel may need to be opened to .116 or .120". Just be aware that going much below 18" is going to require full power loads even with larger gas ports to ensure good function. If you stay somewhere between 18 and 21 inches you should have no issues with functioning of the LE reduced-recoil loads, which are ideal for a defensive use SG. Once you identify which barrel you have assumptions can be made about what loads it will cycle reliably with.

FWIW, the recoil spring assembly extends into the stock. If you remove the butt pad you can take a measurement to see how much can come off the stock, if you wish to shorten it from that end too. I was able to take an inch off of mine, bringing it down to about 12.5 inches LOP.

Feel free to post specific questions and I'll do my best to help. Good luck!

Edit: gas port info;

Model 11-87 Barrels

12ga 30” Premier/Field - .101” / # 38 (2 ea. barrel)
12ga 28” Premier/Field - .101” / # 35 (2 ea. barrel)
12ga 26” Premier/Field - .116” / # 32 (2 ea. barrel)
12ga 30” Special Purpose - .101” / # 38 (2 ea. barrel)
12ga 26” Special Purpose - .116” / # 32 (2 ea. barrel)
12ga 30” Trap - .116” / # 32 (2 ea. barrel)
12ga 28” Trap - .120” / # 31 (2 ea. barrel)
12ga 28” Skeet - .125” / 1/8" (2 ea. barrel)
12ga 21” Spl Purpose Deer .083” / # 25 (2 ea. barrel)

[That Guy]

Thank you for your comments, gentlemen.


First, shotguns are normally expected to run with a variety of ammunition ranging from skeet loads up to slugs and buckshot.

I wouldn't expect this "shorty" to run everything I manage to stuff into the magazine tube. Hell, it doesn't do it now either with the 21" barrel. I have no hope in hell of getting a 24g skeet load to cycle. A 28g sporting load will cycle if I pull the gun back to my shoulder tightly with both arms, but will fail immediately if using a proper push-pull technique. For reliable cycling, I have to go with a 32g hunting load, full power buckshot load, or full power slug. That's just the way this gun is. If it continues to work that way with the shortened barrel, I don't feel I've lost any capability.


One of the reasons you might have had problems with the 21" barrel is the wrong ammunition.

Not as such. While I have tried low pressure ammunition with that barrel and it has indeed failed to feed with it, this came as no surprise to me since the 21" barrel clearly states it is not supposed to be used with low pressure ammunition. My issues with the gun have been related with trying to get a magazine extension to work reliably, and the occasional mystery jam with high power ammunition.



First step: what is the marking on the barrel? Some are set up for target loads (large gas ports), some 21" versions for hunting with slugs (small gas ports) and others with large ports and pressure compensation for both target and full power loads (Premier barrels).

In the photo below, the pressure compensation feature can be seen on the barrel on the bottom: it's essentially a steel clip that works like a pressure relief valve to bleed off excess pressure;

Thank you for the info!

My 28" barrel is marked for use with either 2 3/4" or 3" shells and has the pressure compensation feature.

[NH Shooter]

Thank you for the info!

My 28" barrel is marked for use with either 2 3/4" or 3" shells and has the pressure compensation feature.

Excellent! At 18-3/4" it should cycle everything but light target loads fine.

Magazine tube problems - how did you remove the dimples?

[That Guy]

Excellent! At 18-3/4" it should cycle everything but light target loads fine.

Yes, well, the idea was to shorten the barrel to somewhere around 12" to 14"...



Magazine tube problems - how did you remove the dimples?

I used a gun smith.

[NH Shooter]

Yes, well, the idea was to shorten the barrel to somewhere around 12" to 14"...

https://www.capitolarmory.com/remington-le-1187-police-14-sbs.html

Gas ports may need to be opened up.

[BN]

I don't know if this applies to 11-87's or not.

Years ago I got an 1100 with a deer barrel. 21" I think. It wouldn't work reliably with low brass loads. The Gunsmiths at Cylinder and Slide worked on it when I was at Second Chance one year. They progressively opened up the gas ports in the barrel until it functioned with low brass. I think the thought at the time was that you couldn't go real short with the barrel because you wouldn't get enough gas for it to work. If it means anything, after years of shooting, the barrel started to peen where the bolt locked up.

[Drang]

https://www.capitolarmory.com/remington-le-1187-police-14-sbs.html

Probably couldn't ship overseas...

[NH Shooter]

Probably couldn't ship overseas...

No, just pointing out that a 14-inch barrel is available from the factory, so the gas port size data is established and out there.

[Drang]

No, just pointing out that a 14-inch barrel is available from the factory, so the gas port size data is established and out there.

Got it, thought that was a special offer, not a Remington catalog listing.

[willie]

Easiest way to remove dimples is drilling through them. Not going below 14 inches might be the simplest route since you are limited on receiving replacement parts should you need to replace springs and such. One source for information and expertise is any warranty center of a major manufacturer. Technicians at one may be trained on various models.
FN comes to mind.

[That Guy]

No, just pointing out that a 14-inch barrel is available from the factory, so the gas port size data is established and out there.

I belatedly remembered that the Kuhnhausen manual on my Remington 870 was not a manual on the 870, but rather on Remington shotguns in general. Off to the bookshelf! However, I was quite surprised to see no mention of port sizes for barrels under 21". (Neither did I see any mention on shortening barrels.)

Anyways, I thought "sod it" and chopped the barrel off. It ended up being 35cm, or about 13.8" long due to how the support struts of the vent rib were arranged on it. And naturally I messed up the initial cut so the end of the barrel was not even near square, so I had to work on it with a file... Still not quite right, but I figured it was close enough to take out to the range.

Initially handling the gun, the balance feels flat out weird. Not wrong, just... different. A sporting shotgun enthusiast who is used to front-heavy guns would probably lose their mind trying to swing with this thing, but if you think of it as a different type of firearm than a sporting shotgun, it does not feel inherently bad in any way. Doing room clearing in my house for a grand total of half a minute or so, this thing handles incredibly well indoors compared to a regular shotgun! Very, very handy and nimble piece of kit.

At the range, I first loaded the gun full of 24 gram skeet shells. I knew there was no hope in hell it'd cycle with those, but I thought after some DIY gunsmithing with primitive tools, starting off with low pressure ammunition might be a good idea. And yup, the gun didn't even try to cycle. No surprise there. Next up, a 28 gram sporting load caused short stroking. So the gun was actually trying to cycle with these! This was a positive sign. The short barrel definitely seems to need a bit more gas than the 21" barrel, but not ridiculously more. Next up were a few different full power buckshot loads. These functioned without a hitch. Slugs, a couple of sporting loads were surprisingly weak and failed to cycle, but hunting slugs worked just fine. -0 body hits from 25 meters were not a problem, but I will need a bit more refined aiming reference for, say, head shots. I'll have to shoot the gun more and in colder weather, but initially it seems to work just fine with full power ammunition. And it's not very picky about which full power ammunition it's fed, either.

Patterns were rather large, but then again the ammunition I used was mostly left-overs that hadn't performed very well in other guns. Point of impact was surprisingly high. Then again, I was shooting with just what was left of the rib, so it might be I just don't know how to aim with this thing. I'll get one of those fibre optic beads for the gun, some different ammunition and see where it shoots then. Might want to finish squaring off the end of the muzzle, too, in case that has an effect. I am tempted to try to cut threads for a choke into the barrel, but the tool for making those is rather expensive and I would have to turn it by hand, so... We shall see. (Another alternative would be to hire a gunsmith to do that, but... I haven't had the best of experience with local gunsmiths.)

Since everyone loves pictures... Here she is:

40218

Would a +1 extension or one of those magazine cap lights fit there without poking past the muzzle?

New barrel compared to the 21" "short" barrel:

40219

[JJN]

If anyone CONUS is inclined: http://www.midwest-distributors.com/Remington-1187-Short-Barrel-Shotgun--Scattergun-Technologies_p_265.html.

[mmc45414]

If anyone CONUS is inclinedThat sure seems like a strong value...

[MistWolf]

So I have this Remington 11-87 Express...However the gun never worked quite reliably, especially with a magazine extension...

Have you tried replacing the O ring and seals in the gas system?

[Brian T]

Would a +1 extension or one of those magazine cap lights fit there without poking past the muzzle?


Yes. Let it. It serves to protect your muzzle in the event of a drop (especially more important if you thread it for chokes). Thats why Remington factory extensions protrude past the muzzle.

As for recoil springs, back in the day Wolff made a competition 1100/1187 spring kit. I dont know if they still do, but it might be worth a call. Kinda pricey, but worth it. I tuned my customized 1187 Premier with it back around 2002.

Dammit, I still love the 1187 so. I am getting in to Benelli M1s, which makes me chuckle because my slicked up 1187 was built to compete against them 18 years ago (sigh....). But there is something that keeps me eye-balling older Remington 870s.

If I thought I could make a Magpul 870 stock work, it would screw things up for me even more

[That Guy]

Yes. Let it. It serves to protect your muzzle in the event of a drop (especially more important if you thread it for chokes). Thats why Remington factory extensions protrude past the muzzle.

Huh. I thought that was so the extensions would work with the Remington bayonet adapter they sold to U.S. DoD back in the day.

[Brian T]

Huh. I thought that was so the extensions would work with the Remington bayonet adapter they sold to U.S. DoD back in the day.

I've heard different things by different Remington peeps over the years. Enough hat I would say it's probably dual-purpose.

[willie]

I think that Rem factory extensions protrude past the muzzle only if the barrel is 18 inches.

[That Guy]

I think that Rem factory extensions protrude past the muzzle only if the barrel is 18 inches.

Nope. A 21" barrel and a Remington +3 extension also protrudes past the barrel.

[Chain]

Can't help but think of Payne's shotgun in Stephen Hunter's Point of Impact:
He touched the cut-down Remington 1100 in its custom under-shoulder rig beneath his left arm. In the long tube under the barrel there were six double-ought 12-gauge shells. In each shell were nine .32 caliber pellets. He could fire fifty-four bullets in less than three seconds. Got lots of stuff done with that.

[willie]

Mine is a +2 extension. Did not know that Rem sold +3 ones. Learned something. I have a box of extensions and prefer +1 versions. They don't change balance and give the weapon an unwieldy or awkward handling feeling. Personal experience has been that they can negatively affect reliability. Spring can hang up on juncture of extension and mag tube. The extra pressure from longer spring can distort shells and also can cause shells to jump prematurely past shell latch or interruptor. These events have occurred in my weapons over a 35 year period. When using an extension, loading up a mag tube and then not checking the weapon from time to time may result in a terrible surprise.