The Riddle of Steel (Challenge)

[guymontag]

Any aficionados of Steel Challenge here? Want to talk about it?

Rankings, favorite stages, strategies, etc.

I’m about to take a drive but would love to hear some good conversations and banter.

[Stony Lane]

The standard Steel Challenge stages need to become, more or less, classifiers (as in USPSA). One or two should be shot each match, then many different (and changing match to match) combinations of plates should be used for the other stages.

[GJM]

While I wouldn’t give up USPSA for Steel Challenge, I love it as an additional activity. We had a thread on it, started back in December.

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?34354-Steel-Challenge-for-skills-development

I shoot PCC and Carry Optics in Steel Challenge, and my wife shoots Carry Optics.

[David S.]

I shoot outlaw steel matches at my local club occasionally. I really like it a lot.

[olstyn]

The standard Steel Challenge stages need to become, more or less, classifiers (as in USPSA). One or two should be shot each match, then many different (and changing match to match) combinations of plates should be used for the other stages.

On the outside looking in, I'm confused that it doesn't operate that way. Wouldn't people get extremely bored extremely quickly otherwise?

[GJM]

On the outside looking in, I'm confused that it doesn't operate that way. Wouldn't people get extremely bored extremely quickly otherwise?

Each stage is simultaneously simple, in that there are just five targets, and very intense in that there are just five targets. We are not shooting against other competitors at a local match, we are shooting against the national 100 percent peak times. It is very hard to lay down four good runs on each stage in a Steel Challenge match, and striving for that level of performance with the required consistency to have 4/5 good runs can be a life time pursuit.

[YVK]

As it often happens, the experience is will be affected by the way things are run by your local club. I shot exactly one match, on GJM's encouragement. As far as shooting is concerned, I enjoyed the challenge. Very few formats show in such a definitive way that shooting is not about your best run and hosing but about consistency and going one for one. That said, by the end of a match I was nearly infuriated by the flow. We shot four stages, starting at about 9 am, and finished at 1 or 2 pm. That thing, by my estimate, should've been done in 2 - 2.5 hours. However, everyone shoots two divisions and nearly everyone's second division is some sort of rifle, be it .22 or PCC, with the whole unbagging, chamber flags and stuff. Based on that, at this point I relegated the SC into "unless I have absolutely nothing better to do" category. Hopefully, your experience is faster.

[Medusa]

I recently started steel challenge as supplemental to idpa and USPSA. I enjoy it, and feel each discipline helps with the others. I’m new at everything still, this being about the fifth month of my first season.

I do agree with a certain amount of frustration at numerous .22 lr malfs, long guns being slow to deploy, etc., and almost wish they had a day just for pistols from the holster. But then again, i truly enjoy meeting older shooters who maybe used to do USPSA but don’t want all the movement as they’ve aged. Lots of them still flat get it done on steel, and that makes me happy.

[olstyn]

Each stage is simultaneously simple, in that there are just five targets, and very intense in that there are just five targets. We are not shooting against other competitors at a local match, we are shooting against the national 100 percent peak times. It is very hard to lay down four good runs on each stage in a Steel Challenge match, and striving for that level of performance with the required consistency to have 4/5 good runs can be a life time pursuit.

I absolutely get that it's technically challenging and skill building, but I feel like it would become a mental slog very quickly for me, given that a significant part of what I enjoy about USPSA is the puzzle solving aspect of stage planning. Steel challenge, if run with only the same standard stages each time, would completely remove that aspect. I still think it would be fun to do a few times, or occasionally over the long term, but I can't see myself doing steel challenge anywhere near as regularly as I do USPSA.

[Tom Duffy]

However, everyone shoots two divisions and nearly everyone's second division is some sort of rifle, be it .22 or PCC, with the whole unbagging, chamber flags and stuff. Based on that, at this point I relegated the SC into "unless I have absolutely nothing better to do" category. Hopefully, your experience is faster.

I believe they recently changed the rule. If you're shooting PCC or rimfire rifle, you unbag at the safe table and walk the gun to the line with muzzle pointed straight up and gun flagged when it's your turn. Saves a lot of time.

Annoying to me is the time taken dealing with malfunctions, particularly rimfire, but also with reloaded ammunition. Always seem to have somebody who brings a new gun to a match and doesn't know the point of impact. He tries to figure it out while expending the full 30 seconds per run sending lots of ammo down range. None of these guys are P.E. Kelley. :). I think a match should be limited to using only one gun instead of two; this would really move things along.

[Zincwarrior]

On the outside looking in, I'm confused that it doesn't operate that way. Wouldn't people get extremely bored extremely quickly otherwise?

Well if they are following standard Steel Challenge rules and setup, they can send all the officcial stages in for classification just like USPSA does its classifiers. Our local club sends all its "official" stages in for classification.

I like it. Its not something I want to do every weekend, but it can really focus you on shooting skills really fast. You focus even faster when some 8 years girl comes up and just wipes the floor with you...

Additionally, in central Texas its very nice during the hot parts of the year (like right now). No running around taping, scoring or shooting. Plus ROs can easily be rotated - there seems to be a lot more enthusiasm helping run the pad or run a shooter. When its 105 in the shade, this is officially a big deal.

[guymontag]

The standard Steel Challenge stages need to become, more or less, classifiers (as in USPSA). One or two should be shot each match, then many different (and changing match to match) combinations of plates should be used for the other stages.

Often I've seen 4 standard stages and one "outlaw" stage at our matches and it works quite well. I would not want to shoot a SC match with only one or two standard stages...


While I wouldn’t give up USPSA for Steel Challenge, I love it as an additional activity. We had a thread on it, started back in December.

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?34354-Steel-Challenge-for-skills-development

I shoot PCC and Carry Optics in Steel Challenge, and my wife shoots Carry Optics.

Awesome GJM, I will look into it - I want to discuss skill development so I may revive that one if I see some of what I am looking for - I will make an in-depth post after I read through that thread.


I recently started steel challenge as supplemental to idpa and USPSA. I enjoy it, and feel each discipline helps with the others. I’m new at everything still, this being about the fifth month of my first season.

I do agree with a certain amount of frustration at numerous .22 lr malfs, long guns being slow to deploy, etc., and almost wish they had a day just for pistols from the holster. But then again, i truly enjoy meeting older shooters who maybe used to do USPSA but don’t want all the movement as they’ve aged. Lots of them still flat get it done on steel, and that makes me happy.

This is what aggravates other competitors the most, other than safety violations. After shooting enough matches it isn't too hard to balance being kind to "new&inexperienced/having an off day shooters" by simply timing them out and letting them know ahead of time in the shooter's meeting on the importance of match flow.

[guymontag]

Well if they are following standard Steel Challenge rules and setup, they can send all the officcial stages in for classification just like USPSA does its classifiers. Our local club sends all its "official" stages in for classification.

I like it. Its not something I want to do every weekend, but it can really focus you on shooting skills really fast. You focus even faster when some 8 years girl comes up and just wipes the floor with you...

Additionally, in central Texas its very nice during the hot parts of the year (like right now). No running around taping, scoring or shooting. Plus ROs can easily be rotated - there seems to be a lot more enthusiasm helping run the pad or run a shooter. When its 105 in the shade, this is officially a big deal.

Feel free to reply in PM, do you shoot in the Austin area?

I think that many shooter's don't lend SC enough credit in the sense that you have to focus on shooting well at speed - those peak times are no jokes. Taking out movement and stage planning gives SC a different shooting experience.

[GJM]

Feel free to reply in PM, do you shoot in the Austin area?

I think that many shooter's don't lend SC enough credit in the sense that you have to focus on shooting well at speed - those peak times are no jokes. Taking out movement and stage planning gives SC a different shooting experience.

Steel Challenge as a pursuit can be reduced to a draw and four transitions, repeated four out of five times on any particular stage. While there is not stage planning in the traditional sense, serious competitors are very particular as to the order they engage the targets, and that order often varies by shooter.

If you check the Steel Challenge classifications, you will see that many top USPSA shooters are also very accomplished Steel Challenge shooters. The steel encountered in a typical USPSA match seems pretty easy after shooting Steel Challenge.

[guymontag]

Steel Challenge as a pursuit can be reduced to a draw and four transitions, repeated four out of five times on any particular stage. While there is not stage planning in the traditional sense, serious competitors are very particular as to the order they engage the targets, and that order often varies by shooter.

If you check the Steel Challenge classifications, you will see that many top USPSA shooters are also very accomplished Steel Challenge shooters. The steel encountered in a typical USPSA match seems pretty easy after shooting Steel Challenge.

I remember Enos' book or forum? discussing the "traps" and shooting order, etc. I am sad there aren't too many videos I could find of the top shooters shooting the stages like you would see in USPSA.

But this gets into what I would like to discuss with yall - so what stages do you shoot in what ways? Any tricks along the way? Everyone is different but I am striving to hit as close as possible to peak times myself in Carry Optics and Production and there aren't too many people discussing the finer details - I think it would be fun.

[Zincwarrior]

Feel free to reply in PM, do you shoot in the Austin area?

I think that many shooter's don't lend SC enough credit in the sense that you have to focus on shooting well at speed - those peak times are no jokes. Taking out movement and stage planning gives SC a different shooting experience.


For steel challenge: USPSA out of ARC. Probably not this month as I am losing too many Sundays with IDPA and promised to MD a match there, but likely in August.

Also Copperas Cove runs two steel matches a month. These are action steel though (poppers and falling steel) so a bit different.

As to methods, I generally shoot right to left. I am not much of a help as I will forget a plate if I get complex. Plus I am only a hack C shooter.

[guymontag]

I shoot Carry Optics and Production - both about the same level, A-M.

I recently had a few breakthroughs on the "faster" stages like Roundabout and Smoke and Hope - without consistent practice I've dropped about a second off of those two stages, almost sub-10 on S&H and mid 11s on Roundabout. It was a mental shift on how I engaged the targets that helped.

Now Five-to-Go has been one of my better ones in the past but I am off on it now - I think the fastest has been low 14’s for me? How are y’all shooting this one?

I’ve made some strides on Pendulum, and my times have slowly gone down to about A-class level but I’ve reached a plateau on this one – and I don’t know if or how to potentially dryfire out of this one. How are y’all shooting on this one? Any M or GM level performance here?

[GJM]

I shoot Carry Optics and Production - both about the same level, A-M.

I recently had a few breakthroughs on the "faster" stages like Roundabout and Smoke and Hope - without consistent practice I've dropped about a second off of those two stages, almost sub-10 on S&H and mid 11s on Roundabout. It was a mental shift on how I engaged the targets that helped.

Now Five-to-Go has been one of my better ones in the past but I am off on it now - I think the fastest has been low 14’s for me? How are y’all shooting this one?

I’ve made some strides on Pendulum, and my times have slowly gone down to about A-class level but I’ve reached a plateau on this one – and I don’t know if or how to potentially dryfire out of this one. How are y’all shooting on this one? Any M or GM level performance here?

I have a 12.95 on Pendulum in Carry Optics, just over 100 percent. I shot it the first or second Steel Challenge match I went to, and didn’t know then that Pendulum is supposed to be real hard. :). I just shot it left to right.

[guymontag]

For steel challenge: USPSA out of ARC. Probably not this month as I am losing too many Sundays with IDPA and promised to MD a match there, but likely in August.

Also Copperas Cove runs two steel matches a month. These are action steel though (poppers and falling steel) so a bit different.

As to methods, I generally shoot right to left. I am not much of a help as I will forget a plate if I get complex. Plus I am only a hack C shooter.

Then you and I have likely run across one another, Falling Steel and ARC are my main ones, at least two years ago and starting now - I should be at Tuesday Night Steel next week.


I have a 12.95 on Pendulum in Carry Optics, just over 100 percent. I shot it the first or second Steel Challenge match I went to, and didn’t know then that Pendulum is supposed to be real hard. :). I just shot it left to right.

It's definitely a more mental stage for some - it's interesting how some people choke on Pendulum and some choke on Smoke and Hope. I take it with those times you are in the M to GM range?

[GJM]

Then you and I have likely run across one another, Falling Steel and ARC are my main ones, at least two years ago and starting now - I should be at Tuesday Night Steel next week.



It's definitely a more mental stage for some - it's interesting how some people choke on Pendulum and some choke on Smoke and Hope. I take it with those times you are in the M to GM range?

Yes

[guymontag]

Yes

Awesome! Do you feel like shooting PCC helps with CO and vice versa? Any dry fire tips you’d like to share that you felt helped along the way?

I recently did attempt something Eric G. mentioned in a podcast - switching up how you shoot. While he was referring to drills I applied it to the stages as my drills, so I changed how I engaged the targets each time. So FTG I did far to near and then near to far, etc. and for S&H I did the left two first and then the right two first and I found it extremely helpful in keeping aware of what mistakes I was making and what I was doing well. Times didn’t change too much from the A-M range either.

[GJM]

Awesome! Do you feel like shooting PCC helps with CO and vice versa? Any dry fire tips you’d like to share that you felt helped along the way?

I recently did attempt something Eric G. mentioned in a podcast - switching up how you shoot. While he was referring to drills I applied it to the stages as my drills, so I changed how I engaged the targets each time. So FTG I did far to near and then near to far, etc. and for S&H I did the left two first and then the right two first and I found it extremely helpful in keeping aware of what mistakes I was making and what I was doing well. Times didn’t change too much from the A-M range either.

My experience is that shooting a pistol translates to carbine skills, but not vice versa, as I am continuously reminded when watching PCC shooters in USPSA try to start shooting a pistol again after an extended period with a PCC.

Shooting a PCC at Steel Challenge as a second gun is an easy way for me to refam the carbine.

I have done almost no dedicated Steel Challenge practice, meaning setting up stages and drilling them. I practice fundamentals like the draw and transitions, and assume it will translate into Steel Challenge results. That is probably a poor way to roll if you are super into Steel Challenge, but I am using Steel Challenge as a skills builder rather than my primary shooting game.

[Zincwarrior]

My experience is that shooting a pistol translates to carbine skills, but not vice versa, as I am continuously reminded when watching PCC shooters in USPSA try to start shooting a pistol again after an extended period with a PCC.

Shooting a PCC at Steel Challenge as a second gun is an easy way for me to refam the carbine.

I have done almost no dedicated Steel Challenge practice, meaning setting up stages and drilling them. I practice fundamentals like the draw and transitions, and assume it will translate into Steel Challenge results. That is probably a poor way to roll if you are super into Steel Challenge, but I am using Steel Challenge as a skills builder rather than my primary shooting game.

Same, and mostly just for fun.

[AKDoug]

I like steel challenge simply for the fact that I don't have to really run anywhere. While I'm losing serious weight, I still don't enjoy running through practical shooting stages. I like the simplicity of shooting a series of targets as fast as you can with instantaneous feedback to be very rewarding.

[Bart Carter]

I shoot it for fun, PCC and CO. It is great training for acquiring a proper sight picture and having a good trigger press. You quickly find out when you try to go too quick for your ability. But its good to find that point.

[Mark D]

I really enjoy Steel Challenge. It's popular enough here that my club runs two matches per month. They shoot all 8 official stages, and usually wrap it up sometime between 1230 and, on a very slow day, 1400.

I like the ability to shoot a lot without taping, while getting instantaneous feedback from the steel.

I usually shoot my carry gun, a P2000 LEM. There's usually a couple of other guys shooting defensive pistols, and then a ton of folks shooting rimfires and PCC.

It doesn't get boring or repetitive to me. Maybe because I'm always trying to figure how to get faster. As a B/C shooter, I have plenty of room for improvement.

Mike Seeklander did a nice podcast with Max Michel that gets into the weeds of how Max's strategy.

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/max-michel-world-champion-shares-his-steel-challenge/id969281516?i=1000420703002

[Bart Carter]

...I like the ability to shoot a lot without taping, while getting instantaneous feedback from the steel.

... There's usually a couple of other guys shooting defensive pistols, and then a ton of folks shooting rimfires and PCC...

No taping or resetting is really nice.

Also, it is great to bring out any gun you want to get better with. Your really have to hold the sights properly and have a good trigger press. You just can't blast away as you do on some paper targets. (Except for smoke and hope. :p)

Being able to call your shots without waiting for the steel to ring is another important skill you can acquire.

[guymontag]

Mike Seeklander did a nice podcast with Max Michel that gets into the weeds of how Max's strategy.

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/max-michel-world-champion-shares-his-steel-challenge/id969281516?i=1000420703002

Awesome!! I actually had that link saved for when I had time - I listened to it and it had some great information - I was trying to distill action shooting down a bit more, and I think I’ve settled on the big three that I want to focus on for the next few months 1.Trigger Control, 2. Transitions, and 3. Movement (USPSA and some Outlaw matches).

I have the white wall drill, and the beep drill for trigger control, also the Vogel trigger drill.

What are y’all doing for transitions? Hopkins drill?

[GJM]

Awesome!! I actually had that link saved for when I had time - I listened to it and it had some great information - I was trying to distill action shooting down a bit more, and I think I’ve settled on the big three that I want to focus on for the next few months 1.Trigger Control, 2. Transitions, and 3. Movement (USPSA and some Outlaw matches).

I have the white wall drill, and the beep drill for trigger control, also the Vogel trigger drill.

What are y’all doing for transitions? Hopkins drill?

Read up on JJ’s bump transition method, or better yet take his class.

[Bart Carter]

Read up on JJ’s bump transition method, or better yet take his class.

When I looked on his site, all the class dates were for 2018. Got a link for us?

[guymontag]

Read up on JJ’s bump transition method, or better yet take his class.

Researching now! Any dry fire transition drills you do as well?


When I looked on his site, all the class dates were for 2018. Got a link for us?

I reached out to him via Instagram/email but that didn’t work out earlier this year (late response and I booked another class), the website that does work is:

https://www.regonline.com/builder/site/Default.aspx?EventID=2567071

But I haven’t fooled with it to navigate different courses, if it’s possible...

[45dotACP]

Out of curiosity, would there be any drawback to shooting both a rimfire and a centerfire pistol?

I just did an outlaw steel match at a local club and had an absolute ball. The strategy of USPSA is fun, but steel matches are a different sort of fun and I kinda like the high focus on transitions, so I figured a rimfire and centerfire pistol set up as to be similar (m&p 22 and a M&P9, 22/45 and a 1911) would be good for transition practice.

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[Zincwarrior]

Out of curiosity, would there be any drawback to shooting both a rimfire and a centerfire pistol?

I just did an outlaw steel match at a local club and had an absolute ball. The strategy of USPSA is fun, but steel matches are a different sort of fun and I kinda like the high focus on transitions, so I figured a rimfire and centerfire pistol set up as to be similar (m&p 22 and a M&P9, 22/45 and a 1911) would be good for transition practice.

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I've seen people do that. I don't imagine its an issue (just not at the same time John Wick style...)

[RJ]

No taping or resetting is really nice.

Also, it is great to bring out any gun you want to get better with. Your really have to hold the sights properly and have a good trigger press. You just can't blast away as you do on some paper targets. (Except for smoke and hope. :p)

Being able to call your shots without waiting for the steel to ring is another important skill you can acquire.

I have to say I am seriously starting to think about getting back to SC instead of USPSA once things get a bit more bearable weather wise here in FL (it was 97 today in Tampa with a heat index of 107 I think it was.)

My local club does SC and I've done a match three or more years ago - I remember it being hugely fun and I am not sure why I haven't done more.

I have a very few USPSA matches, honestly, so not nearly the length of time that many of you have. Mostly due to travel and work comittments. And not to bag on USPSA but the few matches I've done this year have been remarkable at how little actual shooting there is, relative to the time spent on the day. Most of the time is standing around waiting, then resetting and taping for your squad. Then more waiting. All for maybe four or five stages and a classifier.

SC I liked for the same reasons above - you get RIGHT NOW feedback as you hear that "ping!" with a hit. No taping, and you get multiple runs. Sure it's stand and blast but seriously - it was a lot of fun.

I will definitely give it a try again soon.

[AKDoug]

One thing I like about steel is the instant feedback. When I pop a C right off the draw in practical, I just keep rocking on and hope I'm fast enough on all the other targets. Pop a clean miss (which might be a C on an practical target) in steel and you're often done for that round if you're competitive. Steel forces me to draw and get my crap together right F'n now...

[45dotACP]

I'd say steel challenge matches are probably an ideal way to introduce new shooters to competition. There's a division for just about everything, the rimfire divisions are cheap to shoot and look fun as hell, and there's not as much movement and therefore less risk or 180 violations so and the RO can closely watch safety.

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[GJM]

This breakdown of divisions and classifications for Steel Challenge just got posted on Enos.

42199

[Sauer Koch]

I shot SC once a few months ago; much fun! It’s like drag racing, but with guns instead of cars. There is waiting in any shooting sport, some more than others, but overall, it was a great time.

[CraigS]

I shot SC for 2 years and then we moved and I haven't found a local club doing it. I enjoyed it but two things I don't like; 1- if you miss it's hard to know was I high, low, left right? 2- It's also hard to know if you missed. When I asked here the consensus was that you can't wait to hear it or see if it shakes a little because that would make you way too slow. I like the IDPA targets because a miss is still counted (although a second is added to your score) and I can see how I missed. OTOH, if I find a match I will shoot it.

[RJ]

I have to say I am seriously starting to think about getting back to SC instead of USPSA once things get a bit more bearable weather wise here in FL (it was 97 today in Tampa with a heat index of 107 I think it was.)

My local club does SC and I've done a match three or more years ago - I remember it being hugely fun and I am not sure why I haven't done more.

I have a very few USPSA matches, honestly, so not nearly the length of time that many of you have. Mostly due to travel and work comittments. And not to bag on USPSA but the few matches I've done this year have been remarkable at how little actual shooting there is, relative to the time spent on the day. Most of the time is standing around waiting, then resetting and taping for your squad. Then more waiting. All for maybe four or five stages and a classifier.

SC I liked for the same reasons above - you get RIGHT NOW feedback as you hear that "ping!" with a hit. No taping, and you get multiple runs. Sure it's stand and blast but seriously - it was a lot of fun.

I will definitely give it a try again soon.

Thanks for the reminder. Will go look for the SC schedule at my local range since it is getting slightly less like Hell here in Tampa.


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[RJ]

New SC web site, apparently:

https://scsa.org/whatschanged

[Zincwarrior]

Thanks. It works fine (old one did too) without any glitches for my stuff.

It hasn't magically bumped me to GM though. So annoying!:cool:

[jeffhughes]

Well run steel challenge matched(or at least squads) are fun. I know several USPSA GMs that use it for practice. I used to belong to a club that left 5 stages set up on an ongoing basis. I loved going out on a weekday and using the stages for differing drills.

Steel is also a terrific way to introduce a newer shooter to the sport. One or two steel matches will give them some confidence going into uspsa or IDPA.

Note, there are many outlaw “steel challenge” challenge matches. The two clubs in my area that have dropped affiliation with the national organization, but still run good matches.

Outlaw steel matches(not steel challenge) are among the most fu. You can have with a gun on...

[EdSeyer211]

I kinda find it enjoying. I'm just not that fast enough. LOL