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cornstalker
07-07-2019, 01:55 PM
I want to learn more about the use of handheld and WML's in a civilian defensive role. Where would be a good place to start?

My only exposure so far has been the Ballistic Radio episode about handheld lights with Chuck Haggard and a Panteo video I watched over a year ago.

1Rangemaster
07-07-2019, 02:43 PM
You should be commended for seeking out instruction and training on an important aspect of personal defense, IMO.
Hardware is important, but one can really get “into the weeds” with all the choices nowadays. Again, my opinion, but buy quality first: Streamlight, Surefire and recently Maglite all have excellent products, and get one(or two) that fit your
lifestyle/carrying circumstances. I’m enough of a nerd to where I have a couple of lights within reach, but get one asap.
Claude Werner(search “Tactical professor”) has some simple but effective suggestions. In many classes, there is a “low light” component, but these are introductions to technique and familiarization firing. GUNSITE is one place that has an evening dedicated to low light/darkness. Thunder Ranch is another immersive school with usually a dedicated session.
Rogers classes almost always include an evening session.
For research, I’d also look at some of the material by Mike Seeklander. Surefire “Field Notes” have some good and quick highlights by competent people.
FWIW, personally I have a couple of techniques-neck index and “Harries” I dry practice, and that would be a strong recommendation.
Good luck in your journey

Chuck Haggard
07-07-2019, 03:01 PM
I'm teaching a class in SLC next year on this subject.

Totem Polar
07-07-2019, 03:27 PM
I'm teaching a class in SLC next year on this subject.

Not seeing it posted on your calendar; Date-details?

SeriousStudent
07-07-2019, 03:32 PM
I'm teaching a class in SLC next year on this subject.

Yes, do tell...... :)

NETim
07-07-2019, 03:35 PM
Thunder Ranch's website has a DVD that covers use of lights among other things.

https://thunderranchinc.com/product/advanced-tactics-dvd/

JAD
07-07-2019, 03:42 PM
The DHGII Low Light class I took at TR in the nineties has held up really well. I would trust Clint and Heidi to have cautiously advanced the curriculum. There are a lot of great shooting schools, but TR is a really good fighting school.

That said, I’ve trained with Chuck Haggard, am aware that he’s an SME, and would say that if illuminating the fight is your primary focus that’s the slickest way to get there.

NH Shooter
07-07-2019, 04:37 PM
And of course among that list of light manufacturers, do not forget Malkoff. Having owned many, it is my preferred brand for serious use.

I took the Low Light Pistol Operator course at the Sig Academy, but that was 100% in conjunction with the use of a handgun. Instruction on using the light alone would be time and $$ well spent.

David S.
07-07-2019, 04:45 PM
Firearms Nation Podcast interviews Jon Dufresne on Principles of Low Light Shooting/ (https://firearmsnation.com/jon-dufresne-principles-of-low-light-shooting/)

cornstalker
07-07-2019, 05:00 PM
Firearms Nation Podcast interviews Jon Dufresne on Principles of Low Light Shooting/ (https://firearmsnation.com/jon-dufresne-principles-of-low-light-shooting/)

Boy, that podcast delivers over and over. Maybe the most informative one out there.

cornstalker
07-07-2019, 05:02 PM
I'm teaching a class in SLC next year on this subject.

Interested. If it's open enrollment, please share the details.

Chuck Haggard
07-07-2019, 05:15 PM
I've got it posted on Eventbrite, still updating my Agile site calendar.

https://www.eventbrite.com/o/agile-training-and-consulting-chuck-haggard-17832902580

Didn't mean to hijack the thread.



For study material, Ken Good's book, now an ebook, is THE manual on the subject;
http://www.nightreapersystems.com/strategies-of-low-light-engagements/

cornstalker
07-07-2019, 05:29 PM
I've got it posted on Eventbrite, still updating my Agile site calendar.

https://www.eventbrite.com/o/agile-training-and-consulting-chuck-haggard-17832902580

Didn't mean to hijack the thread.



For study material, Ken Good's book, now an ebook, is THE manual on the subject;
http://www.nightreapersystems.com/strategies-of-low-light-engagements/

Hijack away. That's exactly what I was after! Thanks!

JAD
07-07-2019, 07:55 PM
I've got it posted on Eventbrite, still updating my Agile site calendar.

https://www.eventbrite.com/o/agile-training-and-consulting-chuck-haggard-17832902580


Note that if you hang around Sunday morning you have an opportunity to study OC with Chuck; I did that class and it’s awesome. Delta flies direct to SLC from several places.

Paul Sharp
07-07-2019, 08:32 PM
I want to learn more about the use of handheld and WML's in a civilian defensive role. Where would be a good place to start?

My only exposure so far has been the Ballistic Radio episode about handheld lights with Chuck Haggard and a Panteo video I watched over a year ago.

Within the context of unarmed combatives, what role are you anticipating the light to play?

cornstalker
07-07-2019, 09:08 PM
Within the context of unarmed combatives, what role are you anticipating the light to play?

I want to learn how to properly use the light for dissuasion, striking, leverage, incapacitation through blinding. How and when to blip .vs full on torch someone. How can you screw yourself with poor technique using the light and how to avoid it. Why in the hell is there a strobe feature on so many lights today?

As far as a WML, obviously that is not for use in the context of unarmed combatives. My focus is more on the light than the gun, and I guess I lumped the use of illumination techniques together on that one. Craig mentioned that discussion on the use of a firearm in entanglement was welcomed here and I guess I took some liberty in assuming the use of a WML might fall into this forum as well. Perhaps inappropriately so on both counts.

UNM1136
07-08-2019, 12:04 AM
Low light, or flashlight training can be rather dogmatic. Always do this, never do that, or you are gonna git killed on da streetz... take as many classes as you can, and Chuck is on my list of instructors, then apply common sense and figure out what works for you. I am one of those cops that is going to be killed on da streetz by using light switches on many of my building searches. I also go to work with about 5 flashlights, handheld and weapons mounted. Kubaton, yawara, and baton techniques work, depending on the size of your light.

pat

Paul Sharp
07-08-2019, 04:27 PM
I want to learn how to properly use the light for dissuasion, striking, leverage, incapacitation through blinding. How and when to blip .vs full on torch someone.

My limited experience hitting people with handhelds is full size mag lights, and 6p sized surefire lights. The smaller handhelds worked great as an intensified choke when used as part of an Ezekiel choke from S-Mount. Knocked dude completely unconscious in less than 3 seconds. As a striking implement I’ve used it as a fist load with the bezel down hammer fist style. I struck several people in the sternum hammer fist style with the bezel being the point of impact. Very effective. I would strongly recommend against strikes to the head with the bezel in this manner as it opens up a smiley face shaped cut that is very deep, and bleeds heavily. It’s also leaves a divot in their skull. If you do strike them on the head with the light make sure it’s a situation where lethal force is good to go.

For training purposes I simply I included the light into my training sessions while rolling after hours with some friends. It took about 5 minutes to figure out how to use the light to enhance chokes, escapes, and strikes.

I’m not a fan of blipping people in the eyes. Well, let’s say sober people. Drunk dudes, homeless guys, and that type of unknown contact respond well to getting blipped or strobed. Sober, or almost sober people aren’t as affected.

blues
07-08-2019, 04:48 PM
Thanks for sharing, Paul. Good to see you around these parts again.

45dotACP
07-08-2019, 05:39 PM
I'm trying to visualize an Ezekiel choke with a light but I'm coming up short here...I only know the one where I grab my own sleeve.

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

RevolverRob
07-08-2019, 05:46 PM
I’m not a fan of blipping people in the eyes. Well, let’s say sober people. Drunk dudes, homeless guys, and that type of unknown contact respond well to getting blipped or strobed. Sober, or almost sober people aren’t as affected.

Drunk people it works well on. I've strobed belligerent drunks before and it really does disorient them.

I did recently use a blip on someone, who I assume was sober(ish), about a year ago. I was by Midway Airport about 10:30 at night to pick up a friend from a late flight, when a 'friendly' driver was upset I wouldn't let him merge into the side of my vehicle. I honked at him and he was furious. At the next traffic light he rolled down his window to both give me a mouthful and the one finger salute. I ignored him, which made him madder, and he started to get out of his car. So I rolled the passenger window down and thinking he was going to get to scream some more, he stopped getting out of his car. He opens his mouth to utter another "Fuck You!" - and I blasted him with a 1000 lumens in the face from about 8-feet away. It had the desired effect it just reset him mid-sentence. The light turned green a moment later and I took off, while he sat there for a few seconds trying to figure out what had happened. I could see in my rear view that his girlfriend was laughing at him as I drove away.

I haven't had a lot of instances where I find light to be the most useful tool, but that certainly worked. I think it's really both a matter or surprise and expectation. He was expecting me to engage verbally and instead just got hit with blinding light and the next thing he sees is my tail lights vanishing in the distance. If I hadn't been using a powerful flashlight at relatively close distance, it would not have worked nearly as well. The fact that we were on a fairly poorly lit street with minimal ambient lighting also contribute to the efficacy of it, I think. The fact that we were both in cars, so our night vision was adjusted to low ambient lighting inside the vehicle, the way light bounces around inside of a car changes those dynamics too.

Anyways, that is my single anecdotal, "I've used a flashlight on a sober person once to reset them" story.

Paul Sharp
07-08-2019, 08:23 PM
I'm trying to visualize an Ezekiel choke with a light but I'm coming up short here...I only know the one where I grab my own sleeve.

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

The hand that chops into the carotid/jugular is holding the light hammerfist style with the bezel down.

txdpd
07-10-2019, 02:43 PM
I see a lot of pros and cons to blipping the eyes. If it works great, don't get married to the idea of it. The biggest issue I see in the field with cops is that they get focused on where they are actively aiming the light and not looking at the suspect's hands. If you're distraction technique is distracting you from the things that can actually kill you, who's it working on?

jeffhughes
07-10-2019, 08:27 PM
You should be commended for seeking out instruction and training on an important aspect of personal defense, IMO.
Hardware is important, but one can really get “into the weeds” with all the choices nowadays. Again, my opinion, but buy quality first: Streamlight, Surefire and recently Maglite all have excellent products, and get one(or two) that fit your
lifestyle/carrying circumstances. I’m enough of a nerd to where I have a couple of lights within reach, but get one asap.
Claude Werner(search “Tactical professor”) has some simple but effective suggestions. In many classes, there is a “low light” component, but these are introductions to technique and familiarization firing. GUNSITE is one place that has an evening dedicated to low light/darkness. Thunder Ranch is another immersive school with usually a dedicated session.
Rogers classes almost always include an evening session.
For research, I’d also look at some of the material by Mike Seeklander. Surefire “Field Notes” have some good and quick highlights by competent people.
FWIW, personally I have a couple of techniques-neck index and “Harries” I dry practice, and that would be a strong recommendation.
Good luck in your journey

Good info for sure.

I had a few low light classes with Seeker at USSA. Good shit...

Chuck Haggard
07-12-2019, 01:18 PM
Strobes, set up correctly, not all are, used correctly, mostly not because lack of education, can work really, really well.


Strikes with small lights I teach mostly what Craig teaches in his EWO class, pikal jabs. It's by far the best way for most people in most circumstances.