RFI - Defensive Spray

[mmc45414]

Actually AM asking for a friend, who works in a very NPE where her gun would get her fired from a really good job.

There is so much crap out there and I don't know squat. Is there a specific brand that is a go-to? Hoping for a product line that would have various size options.

[45dotACP]

Not sure how to throw up the Bat Signal for Paul Sharp...but that guy would know.

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

[wmu12071]

Not sure how to throw up the Bat Signal for Paul Sharp...but that guy would know.

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

Or Chuck Haggard.

There is a lot of buzz around POM right now but I have zero experience in the matter.

[mmc45414]

Not sure how to throw up the Bat Signal for Paul Sharp...but that guy would know.

Or Chuck Haggard.
There is a lot of buzz around POM right now but I have zero experience in the matter.

Thanks for the referrals. Hey there Paul Sharp Chuck Haggard

[wmu12071]

Thanks for the referrals. Hey there Paul Sharp Chuck Haggard

Thank you, I'm not forum literate enough to tag people.

[mmc45414]

Thank you, I'm not forum literate enough to tag people.I just recently learned :)

[JAD]

Not super useful to your friend, but Chuck teaches an excellent class on the topic, that I think has been featured multiple times at the Rangemaster conference.

Here's a good thread.
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?18959-Is-this-Sabre-Pepper-Spray-GTG

[Guerrero]

I think most folks will recommend Sabre Red, although the cool kids like John Murphy seem to be switching to POM.

[BillSWPA]

I have been buying Sabre Red lately.

Depending on the level of training of the user, I also like the ASP Key Defender. Although a smaller and larger size are available and worth considering, I like the original. It has less capacity and shorter range than the Sabre offerings, but doubles as a Kubotan/Yawara/pocket stick type weapon. Sabre offers a similar product.

[Yung]

From what I remember when they came through Arizona, both Chuck Haggard and John Murphy had good things to say about Sabre Red. Mr. Haggard was also looking into testing Defense Technology's products since they had Mk-6 cans of similar make to Sabre's. Mr. Murphy recently mentioned he'd gone with POM spray on the latest Civilian Carry Radio episode. I'd seen John Correia testing POM on some guys on the ASP channel recently.

Currently I carry Sabre Red since that's what I'd been given at CC-ASAT, but I will likely switch to DefTech in a year or so from now since that is the brand I am more familiar with as I was exposed to and carried in the military. I understand they got bought out by Safariland at some point.

In Chuck's OC class a student volunteered and was exposed to Mace pepper gel, and the results were okay but slightly mixed.

[BillSWPA]

Before I knew anything about pepper spray, I sprayed an aggressive dog with 6% Mace brand spray. The dog backed out of range, and then came right back at me. This happened a few more times, with me either missing entirely or hitting the dog a bit behind the face. The owner, who could hear something happening but could not see us, called the dog back to him. The next time I saw that dog, it charged at me, I sprayed and completely missed, and the dog stopped charging. I suspect that the dog was made sufficiently uncomfortable the previous time not to want any more spray, but only after I had already left.

[mmc45414]

I made an initial recommendation for Sabre Red. There may be some urgency so I wanted to get her a direction without too much delay.

[David S.]

IIRC from John Murphy’s class, Sabre Red has a couple different blends. Make sure you get the spicier

[SAWBONES]

I think most folks will recommend Sabre Red, although the cool kids like John Murphy seem to be switching to POM.

Over the years I've carried OC sprays from ASP, Spitfire, Sabre Red and a couple others, but never heard of POM till now.

Unfortunately, the POM website is remarkably content-free as regards detailed product information, and instead emphasizes the colors (!) of the spray containers and the colors (!) of the decorative stripe around each container, which are "catered to the modern individual", so one may "feel empowered", and "find the POM that fits your personal style", of course also emphasizing that the container is made of "FDA approved Polymer, a plastic product that is free from lead, toxins, and harmful chemicals" (since of course we all want to do our part in "saving the planet" by our choice of OC spray!) and though it does mention that the spray contains "1.40% Major Capsaicinoids", no information is provided about how this compares to other products, or whether the OC delivery is as spray, stream, foam, nor is there any mention of range.

Guess I'll just stick with Sabre Red...unless any here can give a convincing testimonial for POM, of course. :p

[mtnbkr]

At John Murphy's pepper spray class back in Feb (might have been Jan), he was still suggesting Sabre Red. However, looking at POM's site, I see they use 1.4% MCs vs SabreRed's 1.33%.

I'm a bit confused by their claim of 1.4% because elsewhere on the site they state 1.33%.

I can't imagine an extra .07% is noticeable, so maybe Mr Murphy will chime in.

That said, SabreRed is proven, so if you need something quickly, it's probably a safe bet.

Chris

[BobM]

I made an initial recommendation for Sabre Red. There may be some urgency so I wanted to get her a direction without too much delay.


Walmarts in SW Ohio usually have Sabre Red in the sporting goods department.

[John Murphy]

After some work, I found the form factor of the POM dispenser better for more people. (Women's pants are notoriously underpocketed.) Also the way they designed the thing for left/right carry was genius!

I did take the precaution of taping the rotating head into one position...for left pocket carry...since it has been my experience that if things can move they will, and I need absolute consistency. (Particularly with weapons!)

Regarding the formula, I gave it the taste test....MUY CALIENTE indeed! Their website is confusing since it lists both 1.33% and 1.4% MCC.

The video that John Correia posted illustrated the sort of effect we want to see, I think.

THE DOWNSIDE is that trainers have been promised for a long time...and have yet to arrive.

[Guerrero]

Walmarts in SW Ohio usually have Sabre Red in the sporting goods department.

I've seen that as well in other Walmarts, sometimes in sporting goods, sometimes near automotive.

[Up1911Fan]

After some work, I found the form factor of the POM dispenser better for more people. (Women's pants are notoriously underpocketed.) Also the way they designed the thing for left/right carry was genius!

I did take the precaution of taping the rotating head into one position...for left pocket carry...since it has been my experience that if things can move they will, and I need absolute consistency. (Particularly with weapons!)

Regarding the formula, I gave it the taste test....MUY CALIENTE indeed! Their website is confusing since it lists both 1.33% and 1.4% MCC.

The video that John Correia posted illustrated the sort of effect we want to see, I think.

THE DOWNSIDE is that trainers have been promised for a long time...and have yet to arrive.

I've found the pocket clip on the POM to be extremely weak as far as tension goes. Twice today when getting out of the car the spray was inside my pocket instead of clipped to it. I like the form factor, just wish it would stay put.

[Paul Sharp]

Not sure how to throw up the Bat Signal for Paul Sharp...but that guy would know.

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

Thanks dude!

I still prefer Sabre Red. Maybe it's bias on my part however, seeing Sabre Red work over and over again in a wide variety of circumstances I remain a fan. POM seems to have potential and I see some folks switching to POM. I just haven't seen enough or heard about enough folks using it live to jump ship or recommend POM. Nothing against POM or the guys recommending it. I just don't have the depth of experience with POM to have faith in it's effectiveness.

[JAH 3rd]

I remember years ago when NC DOC went to pepper spray. We had to go through training on it's use as well as being sprayed. We had a partner when sprayed. Can't remember the brand, but we were sprayed a short burst at the forehead just above the eyes. It took a second or two, but my eyes started burning, watering, and wanted to keep them shut. My partner guided me over to the water where I washed out my eyes with baby shampoo. Recovered enough as it was my partner's turn to get sprayed.

When I got home I took a shower. That spray lit me up again. At least this time I got it all off. Glad we didn't get tasers and had to go through that training.........don't tase me bro!

[Doug MacRay]

Does anyone here have any experience with Freeze +P? It's what I've been carrying for a few years now based on the recommendations of a few LEO's with experience using it.

Also, from what I've read in the past, the formulation of the spray matters just as much as the actual OC/CS/CN concentrations. Is this the case, or is a higher concentration always better?

Thanks for your insights!

[Moonshot]

The last time I tested Saber Red, the stream was quite unimpressive. About 3 feet in front of me it hit the ground. And yes, the canister had been vigorously shaken and it was not out of date.

Anyone have experience with Fox Labs? I had always heard this was the hottest, but that was a few years ago.

[fwrun]

The last time I tested Saber Red, the stream was quite unimpressive. About 3 feet in front of me it hit the ground. And yes, the canister had been vigorously shaken and it was not out of date.

Anyone have experience with Fox Labs? I had always heard this was the hottest, but that was a few years ago.

If your Sabre Red petered out at 3 feet, something was wrong and I suggest buying a new can of the same.

We carry Sabre Red at work and it works quite well. Most sprays will. The internet would have you believe that if you don’t have the hottest formula, it’s like a spritz of water to your opponent. Simply not the case. Just buy whatever your local cops are using if you are stressed about it.

With that being said, I picked up two cans of POM from the delivery driver today. Pocket clip for me and key ring for the bride. She was funny about carrying the big ugly black cans of Sabre, but the white and turquoise POM was perfectly acceptable. If that’s what it takes, I’m fine with it.

[CWM11B]

For non LE use (and what I carry daily) I like Zarc's VEXOR brand. Tested it years ago at work and it was very effective. We didn't go to it due to a very long recovery time. For creating distance/escape it fits my purposes nicely

[Up1911Fan]

Does anyone here have any experience with Freeze +P? It's what I've been carrying for a few years now based on the recommendations of a few LEO's with experience using it.

Also, from what I've read in the past, the formulation of the spray matters just as much as the actual OC/CS/CN concentrations. Is this the case, or is a higher concentration always better?

Thanks for your insights!

It's what we carry at work. Works just fine in the times it's been used.

[Street Survival]

Fox Labs works like a charm.

[mtnbkr]

I ordered one of the Pom sprays in white with a "girly" colored stripe. I'm thinking the non-tactical nature of the packaging might fly under the radar in questionable environments.

Chris

[Erik]

One question I've had is, how meaningful is the expiration date for these sprays?

[jnc36rcpd]

I've tested Bodyguard and Sabre Red up to several years after expiration date. Within a couple years, they will probably work fine. I typically allowed officers to keep expired OC if they wanted it for off-duty or to give to a loved one. This also served the department because it was that many fewer expired OC cans I needed to dispose of.

That said, I wouldn't go nuts. If the can hasn't been banged around and/or damaged, it will probably be fine for a few months to a couple of years. But, they're not that expensive and they are now marked for longer expiration dates rather than the old three year expiration. You're better off buying a new can rather than counting on my estimate.

Our Bodyguard worked great and was clearly respected even by other OC manufacturers. The Sabre Red worked even better. We tested Fox Labs. The mist blowing across a marking lot sent a major running back into headquarters.

[mtnbkr]

FWIW, my Pom canister arrived today. It would totally fly under the radar. It looks like a woman's cosmetic, perfume spritzer, or maybe even an inhaler.

Chris

[Coyotesfan97]

One question I've had is, how meaningful is the expiration date for these sprays?

The expiration isn’t for the OC it’s for the propellant. I’ve seen cans work fine at five years but I’ve seen a few cans dribble OC from the nozzle at five years.

I’ve got some old cans lying around. I’ll test them and see how they work.

[Guerrero]

On Greg Ellifritz's blog, he just came out in favor of the POM.

[Erik]

The expiration isn’t for the OC it’s for the propellant. I’ve seen cans work fine at five years but I’ve seen a few cans dribble OC from the nozzle at five years.

I’ve got some old cans lying around. I’ll test them and see how they work.

Got it. Thanks.

[Norville]

One question I've had is, how meaningful is the expiration date for these sprays?

I tested some Punch recently with a 1994 expiration date. It sprayed fine, and a crosswind assured me it was still potent.

[Keith E.]

I tested some Punch recently with a 1994 expiration date. It sprayed fine, and a crosswind assured me it was still potent.

I'm only aware of one incident where Punch didn't work as designed. Two full-grown officers with full-tube maglites were required and even that took a bit of time. I haven't seen Punch in quite a while though.

Keith

[Yung]

Ordered some POM for Mom! One snap ring and one clip. Whichever one she doesn't like as much is going to be used for test-firing, probably on me. Hopefully these guys start to offer inert units some time soon.

Here's a link to the latest Civilian Carry Radio episode with Chuck Haggard talking about OC, with Mr. Murphy and Mr. Correia as guests on the panel.

https://firearmsradio.tv/civilian-carry-radio/civilian-carry-radio-104-chuck-haggard-leo-and-owner-of-agile-training-and-consulting-on-pepper-spray-oc-spray

[Wake27]

I got two canisters of POM the other day as well. The Sabre that I’d given my wife had a very weak safety mechanism that was always getting moved around in her purse. I’m a much bigger fan of the POM’s trigger and safety and agree that the colors will probably make it easier to fly under the radar. I don’t know what it looks like, but I wouldn’t immediately guess pepper spray if I didn’t already know.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[mtnbkr]

I've been carrying my POM for a couple weeks now. Aside from the benefit of the non-tactical colors, it carries much easier than the larger Sabre with pocket clip. As a result, it has become a permanent part of my pocket dump.

Chris

[David S.]

I’ve been carrying the Pom for a couple days. I like it.

A couple nitpicks, I’d like to see a bigger finger guard for indexing the hand and keeping it out of the stream. I’d also like to see a bigger option.

I definitely prefer this trigger safety to the standard Sabre slider. I’d guess there’s less chance of pocket stuff getting underneath the POM’s trigger safety than the Sabre MK6’s.

This seems like a winner.

[fwrun]

Wife’s keychain model POM unit cracked last week near the ring and upwards towards the top of the unit. I had to remove it from her keychain, as the canister was no longer properly retained. I contacted POM about it and was informed they have a lifetime warranty on the exterior plastic. They sent a new lower half, as well as a surprise, a whole new POM keychain model. I guess it was to make up for the inconvenience, but it was a totally unexpected move.

[Guerrero]

^^^^Nice

In other news, it looks like Sabre Red (re-?)introduced a flip-top keychain model that I don't remember seeing before. Still no pocket/belt clip on it, though.

[RevolverRob]

FYI - If anyone is interested - ASP is currently outletting some of the Street Defender models about half the normal price at 26 bucks each - https://www.asp-usa.com/collections/personal-safety

[blues]

There's too many damned choices...resulting in analysis paralysis.

I may buy a small canister for both myself and the missus if I can ever decide which carries least obtrusively, with the least chance of malfunction and acceptable effectiveness.

For now my flashlight remains my "less lethal" option.

[RevolverRob]

There's too many damned choices...resulting in analysis paralysis.

I may buy a small canister for both myself and the missus if I can ever decide which carries least obtrusively, with the least chance of malfunction and acceptable effectiveness.

For now my flashlight remains my "less lethal" option.

The Key Defender has a profile about like a 3/4-sized mini-mag lite in length. In fact, the little removable mini-mag lite pocket clips fit it, so it can be clipped to the pocket. It has a flip-away safety so no concern of accidental discharge when carried in the pocket like a flashlight. My wife carries one in her pocket or purse. It's small enough there isn't a good excuse not to carry it. The downside is minimal range (~10 feet). There are also training cartridges for it, to aid in learning to draw and deploy the device. In my opinion, since the Spitfire went away, the ASP Defender series is the best choice to meet your criteria.

Of course, I do go bigger myself - what I carry right now is this: https://www.copsplus.com/sabre-sabre-red-h2o-mk-6-69-oz-stream-delivery-spray - The H2O version is easier to decon if you accidentally hit yourself with it. Still effective as a 10% OC with 1.33% MC and it has a UV marking dye in it.

That said, this is a big canister of spray compared to an ASP Defender sized package. I usually just stow it in the pocket of my "shoot me" concealment vest. My three biggest threats I carry OC for are aggressive panhandlers, including people who may approach my vehicle and refuse to back away, aggressive dogs (especially at the dog park), and aggressive dog owners (especially at the dog park).

The latter two are actually my biggest concerns. I've not seen people act so irrationally about someone grabbing an aggressive animal as they do when you grab their "wonderful pooch". Poochy wouldn't hurt a fly as he grabs a hold of a smaller dog and tries to do his best imitation of a petulant child breaking a toy...And if you move Poochy out of the way, Poochy's owner, usually mom, seems to think she is entitled to harass and/or assault you for making sure neither your dog nor Poochy ended up getting a lethal injection. :rolleyes:

[Cecil Burch]

IMO, right now POM is a definite no go.

I had the plastic crack on the unit I was testing for my daughter, and there have been at least 5 other incidents of similar breakage in a closed FB group I am in. If these cracks had all appeared after some ridiculous amount of pressure testing like trying to deploy in an entangled fight, then I would not be so concerned. I assume thin plastic to not regularly survive that level of abuse. However, in every single one of the above cases. the plastic failures came about through normal use. For example, on mine, the only stress there was to the unit was taking it out of a pocket at the end of the day and then putting it in a pocket of new pants the next morning. I am sorry, but failures there for a potential piece of emergency equipment is completely unacceptable.

Supposedly POM is "working on it", but it is unconscionable for a company to not have done a minimal and reasonable level of their own testing before releasing this to the public. I don't mind being a beta-tester for gear. I have done that a lot for holsters from different manufacturers for instance. But I knew in advance that I was to be a beta tester. It was not a sudden surprise down the road. The fact that this unit i had was earmarked for my daughter and it broke does not leave me with much warm and fuzzy feelings for this company.

Again, this is my opinion, and everyone needs to make their own choices, but until POM goes out of their way to prove they have truly fixed this, I am sticking to the proven Sabre stuff (as does the rest of my loved ones).

[BillSWPA]

The Key Defender has a profile about like a 3/4-sized mini-mag lite in length. In fact, the little removable mini-mag lite pocket clips fit it, so it can be clipped to the pocket. It has a flip-away safety so no concern of accidental discharge when carried in the pocket like a flashlight. My wife carries one in her pocket or purse. It's small enough there isn't a good excuse not to carry it. The downside is minimal range (~10 feet). There are also training cartridges for it, to aid in learning to draw and deploy the device. In my opinion, since the Spitfire went away, the ASP Defender series is the best choice to meet your criteria.

Of course, I do go bigger myself - what I carry right now is this: https://www.copsplus.com/sabre-sabre-red-h2o-mk-6-69-oz-stream-delivery-spray - The H2O version is easier to decon if you accidentally hit yourself with it. Still effective as a 10% OC with 1.33% MC and it has a UV marking dye in it.

That said, this is a big canister of spray compared to an ASP Defender sized package. I usually just stow it in the pocket of my "shoot me" concealment vest. My three biggest threats I carry OC for are aggressive panhandlers, including people who may approach my vehicle and refuse to back away, aggressive dogs (especially at the dog park), and aggressive dog owners (especially at the dog park).

The latter two are actually my biggest concerns. I've not seen people act so irrationally about someone grabbing an aggressive animal as they do when you grab their "wonderful pooch". Poochy wouldn't hurt a fly as he grabs a hold of a smaller dog and tries to do his best imitation of a petulant child breaking a toy...And if you move Poochy out of the way, Poochy's owner, usually mom, seems to think she is entitled to harass and/or assault you for making sure neither your dog nor Poochy ended up getting a lethal injection. :rolleyes:

All very good commentary, but the range of the Key Defender is more like 5 feet. The Street Defender is likely to be a bit more.

I have used a 2AA mini Maglight clip on my wife’s Key Defender.

I can often find room in a pocket for a Key Defender when I could not find room for something else.

The safety latch on. Key Defender is a bit slow to deploy, and I would plan on potentially using a Key Defender as an impact weapon first, creating the opportunity to use the spray.

The limited range and amount of spray of a Key Defender and ability to use it as an impact weapon make me more likely to recommend it for an individual with at least some training. For the untrained, I recommend a Sabre unit with greater range and more spray, figuring the use as an impact weapon is less likely.





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[RevolverRob]

All very good commentary, but the range of the Key Defender is more like 5 feet. The Street Defender is likely to be a bit more.

I have used a 2AA mini Maglight clip on my wife’s Key Defender.

I can often find room in a pocket for a Key Defender when I could not find room for something else.

The safety latch on. Key Defender is a bit slow to deploy, and I would plan on potentially using a Key Defender as an impact weapon first, creating the opportunity to use the spray.

The limited range and amount of spray of a Key Defender and ability to use it as an impact weapon make me more likely to recommend it for an individual with at least some training. For the untrained, I recommend a Sabre unit with greater range and more spray, figuring the use as an impact weapon is less likely.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Hmm, the training cartridges in my wife’s give you “end of the car” distance and our car is about 12-13’ long. The safety latch benefits from a little texturing. Either texture it with your soldering iron or grip tape.

The thing I don’t like about the Defender series besides limited range is the cone of spray, as opposed to stream. I definitely prefer stream, for distance, accuracy, and for less chance of hitting yourself with it.

[BillSWPA]

Hmm, the training cartridges in my wife’s give you “end of the car” distance and our car is about 12-13’ long. The safety latch benefits from a little texturing. Either texture it with your soldering iron or grip tape.

The thing I don’t like about the Defender series besides limited range is the cone of spray, as opposed to stream. I definitely prefer stream, for distance, accuracy, and for less chance of hitting yourself with it.

The last time my wife and I used a training cartridge was well over a decade ago. Perhaps they have improved?

When a heat cartridge is past its expiration date, I have typically discharged it to empty it before disposing of it. I would normally see about 5 feet (or less) of cone. Perhaps it had lost some pressure by that point in time?

Regardless, I think our differences in results mean I should re-test to confirm or disprove my results.

[RevolverRob]

The last time my wife and I used a training cartridge was well over a decade ago. Perhaps they have improved?

When a heat cartridge is past its expiration date, I have typically discharged it to empty it before disposing of it. I would normally see about 5 feet (or less) of cone. Perhaps it had lost some pressure by that point in time?

Regardless, I think our differences in results mean I should re-test to confirm or disprove my results.

Likewise

I’ll order some test cartridges and some fresh heat.

[Yung]

Thanks for the heads-up, Cecil.

In the meantime I took another look at their website and I realized they do have inert units available after all.

https://get-pom.com/products/pom-practice-water-units?variant=29430423224362

[Isaac]

Fox is usually what I get.

[deputyG23]

We go through a fair amount of Sabre Red in both of our jail facilities and, according to reports I have read, seems to work quite well. No complaints from staff.

[Hi-Point Aficionado]

...the range of the Key Defender is more like 5 feet. The Street Defender is likely to be a bit more...

Correct regarding both. The Street Defender advertises a ten foot range on the cartridge. For those curious, the Palm Defender has an even shorter advertised range. My daily keys are on a Key Defender to force program compliance but I keep a Piexon JPX in my manpurse if I have a tickled intuition and need some extra range. Use an ASP Street Defender on my slimmed down and optimized vacation keys to get extra range and not have to carry as much crap when bumming around places. I've disabled MK-6 cans by dropping them and gave up on the size so bummer about POM not sounding any more rugged.

[Guerrero]

How does everyone carry your spray? I have both a Sabre Red keychain model and one of the new POM's, but haven't found a good way to carry either, especially in "dress casual" clothes.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I found that Fox ran out of steam fairly quickly as compared to some other brands. I think it is a good idea to get new ones yearly of any type, just as you change smoke detector batteries.

[Hi-Point Aficionado]

How does everyone carry your spray?

I've since shortened the lead on my segregated high-use keys but support side AIWB for my Key and Street Defenders:

https://i.imgur.com/kFixxP4l.jpg

[BillSWPA]

How does everyone carry your spray? I have both a Sabre Red keychain model and one of the new POM's, but haven't found a good way to carry either, especially in "dress casual" clothes.

If I am carrying a Sabre keychain unit, it goes in a jacket for front pants pocket.

If I am carrying an ASP Key Defender, it may go in a jacket or front pants pocket, or may go in a back pocket, held mostly vertical by a wallet or business card holder in the same pocket. I have found, however, that back pocket carry of the Key Defender will put holes in some pants.

I rarely attach keys to my pepper spray. However, if attaching keys to a key defender is desired, the quick detach key ring is worth having. If keys are attached, the Key defender could be shoved inside a waistband with the keys hanging out.

[BillSWPA]

Regarding the range of the Key Defender type devices:

For the Key Defender, from the ASP website:

"The Key Defender contains six 1/2-second bursts and has an effective range of five feet."

https://www.asp-usa.com/collections/personal-safety/products/key-medium-defender

For the Palm Defender:

"The Palm Defender contains three 1/2-second bursts and has an effective range of three feet."

https://www.asp-usa.com/collections/personal-safety/products/palm-compact-defender

For the Street Defender:

"The Street Defender contains thirty 1/2-second bursts and has an effective range of ten feet."

https://www.asp-usa.com/collections/personal-safety/products/street-large-defender

I have had a Key Defender for a long time, but the number of sprays and range of the Street Defender seems quite significant for about 3/4 inch more length and a little more than 1/10 inch more diameter.

[Hi-Point Aficionado]

...I have had a Key Defender for a long time, but the number of sprays and range of the Street Defender seems quite significant for about 3/4 inch more length and a little more than 1/10 inch more diameter.

Your miles may vary but I've found the Street Defender less comfortable AIWB for a long, active day and can't wait to take it out of my waistband by late evening. It also lacks color options while being a visibly larger stick so may attract more attention than the comparably svelte and innocuously colored Key Defenders. But you pocket yours so none of that may matter.

[808sheriff]

similar thing happened with my POM unit with clip, cracked near clip. contacted POM and they sent a free unit


Wife’s keychain model POM unit cracked last week near the ring and upwards towards the top of the unit. I had to remove it from her keychain, as the canister was no longer properly retained. I contacted POM about it and was informed they have a lifetime warranty on the exterior plastic. They sent a new lower half, as well as a surprise, a whole new POM keychain model. I guess it was to make up for the inconvenience, but it was a totally unexpected move.

[mtnbkr]

Fwiw, a POM unit in white with a coral/pink ring goes undetected during bag checks at Disneyworld. There isn't enough metal to set off their not-very-sensitive metal detectors. Neither does my Seiko five watch or cellphone.

Mine hasn't cracked yet, so I'm going to keep carrying it to see if/when it does.

Chris

[mtnbkr]

Back from Disney and the POM spray was never discovered. The few times it was in my daypack it wasn't noticed during bag checks. I walked it through metal detectors nearly a dozen times without being noticed. I had one close call at Animal Kingdom where they don't use walk-through detectors. Instead, they do random wand checks. Naturally, when I'm not carrying my bag, they call me out for a wanding. They ran the wand right over the pocket holding the POM and the detector crackles a bit. She doesn't even pause and keeps going. Once she's done, she tells me to have a good evening and I'm free to go.

IMO, the POM, in non-tactical colors, is ideal for NPEs.

Chris

[BillSWPA]

Back from Disney and the POM spray was never discovered. The few times it was in my daypack it wasn't noticed during bag checks. I walked it through metal detectors nearly a dozen times without being noticed. I had one close call at Animal Kingdom where they don't use walk-through detectors. Instead, they do random wand checks. Naturally, when I'm not carrying my bag, they call me out for a wanding. They ran the wand right over the pocket holding the POM and the detector crackles a bit. She doesn't even pause and keeps going. Once she's done, she tells me to have a good evening and I'm free to go.

IMO, the POM, in non-tactical colors, is ideal for NPEs.

Chris

Very good to know.

I have carried other brands of plastic pepper spray keychain units (with key rings removed) through metal detectors, but nothing I have done even approaches this level of testing.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Yung]

Any updates on the POM plastic cracking? Has this issue been fixed?

[mtnbkr]

Any updates on the POM plastic cracking? Has this issue been fixed?

I'm still carrying the same one I bought back in July with no cracks. That includes clipping it to the pocket of some fairly thick materials like Duluth's Firehose Work Pants (not the lighter Flex versions) and use in VA's Summer, Fall, and Winter and Florida's Summer temps (25deg-100deg so far).

Based on my sample of one, they're good to go and I'd buy more. The form factor is much more suitable for EDC when you have a lot of other stuff to carry and less "scary" to the "normals".

I'm not sure I'd use the keychain version due to how the housing is a friction fit to the internal canister (allows you to orient the clip, which I do so I can get the right grip by feel), but for clipping inside a pocket, it's fine.

Chris

[SAWBONES]

Any updates on the POM plastic cracking? Has this issue been fixed?

Still carrying my POM canister daily since last June, no cracks or other breakage so far.

[awp_101]

Mine’s been carried daily since August alternating between Carhartt heavy work jeans and regular blue jeans. I’ve had the clip separate from the body a couple of times when it’s lightly snagged on something but only with the thicker Carhartts. I think the thickness of the pocket top is near the limit of what the clip mount will reliably handle.

[dontshakepandas]

I've been carrying a POM with clip for a few months with no issues as well.

Since switching from a "normal" flashlight to the Surefire Stiletto I've been pretty amazed at how much more comfortable the shape is while in my pocket and have wondered if there are any defensive spray products that offer something similar. If not, is it just not possible to manufacture? Too expensive to manufacture? I'd be fine with something quite a bit longer than the POM, but having a flatter shape would definitely increase comfort for pocket carry.

[mrozowjj]

I've been carrying a POM with clip for a few months with no issues as well.

Since switching from a "normal" flashlight to the Surefire Stiletto I've been pretty amazed at how much more comfortable the shape is while in my pocket and have wondered if there are any defensive spray products that offer something similar. If not, is it just not possible to manufacture? Too expensive to manufacture? I'd be fine with something quite a bit longer than the POM, but having a flatter shape would definitely increase comfort for pocket carry.

I've wondered the same thing; a flat pack would be much easier for me to carry than a tube. Sadly the only thing I've found close is that pepper blaster thing which I've been told kind of sucks.

[Yung]

Whoops, wrong thread.

[Keith E.]

I've found the pocket clip on the POM to be extremely weak as far as tension goes. Twice today when getting out of the car the spray was inside my pocket instead of clipped to it. I like the form factor, just wish it would stay put.

Maybe a thin strip of skateboard tape applied to the can under the footprint of the clip would help with retention until the mfr improves the clip?

Keith

[Clusterfrack]

My wife just used an entire purse-sized can of Sabre on an aggressive off-leash dog this morning. We’ve had problems with this dog and its clueless and selfish owner for years, so this was not a surprise.

Mrs. CF sprayed the dog in the face at close range, but it came back two more times, and she ended up draining the can. The animal was finally collared by the owner.

This incident mirrors my own experience with OC type sprays and canines. It does not incapacitate dogs, but may be effective in discouraging an attack.

We are hoping that the owner gets a solid dose of OC from her animal.

[Guerrero]

My wife just used an entire purse-sized can of Sabre on an aggressive off-leash dog this morning. We’ve had problems with this dog and its clueless and selfish owner for years, so this was not a surprise.

Mrs. CF sprayed the dog in the face at close range, but it came back two more times, and she ended up draining the can. The animal was finally collared by the owner.

This incident mirrors my own experience with OC type sprays and canines. It does not incapacitate dogs, but may be effective in discouraging an attack.

We are hoping that the owner gets a solid dose of OC from her animal.

Good to know. Had an experience with a pit bull a couple years ago and was wondering if OC would do the trick. Now I know.

(and knowing is half the battle)

John Murphy I think said the same thing, that OC might not be effective against large, aggressive dogs.

[Le Français]

A novel I read recently had a scene in which defensive spray, applied liberally and at close range, actually kills a dog. Some people have strange misconceptions. My own experience has been that dogs don’t like it, but it doesn’t seem to affect them as much as it affects (some/most) humans.

[blues]

Glad she's okay, CF, and that she had the mindset and wherewithal to do what needed to be done. Kudos.

[Clusterfrack]

A novel I read recently had a scene in which defensive spray, applied liberally and at close range, actually kills a dog. Some people have strange misconceptions. My own experience has been that dogs don’t like it, but it doesn’t seem to affect them as much as it affects (some/most) humans.

The only time I've had OC work decisively on a dog was when I sprayed it in the butthole. That dog stopped fighting right away and ran in circles.

[Clusterfrack]

Glad she's okay, CF, and that she had the mindset and wherewithal to do what needed to be done. Kudos.

Thanks. I'm proud of her, and she is too. This was an excellent skills and mindset test. I just ordered her some more spray and gave her mine.

[blues]

The only time I've had OC work decisively on a dog was when I sprayed it in the butthole. That dog stopped fighting right away and ran in circles.

He fell in to a burning ring of fire...

[Totem Polar]

My wife just used an entire purse-sized can of Sabre on an aggressive off-leash dog this morning. We’ve had problems with this dog and its clueless and selfish owner for years, so this was not a surprise.

Mrs. CF sprayed the dog in the face at close range, but it came back two more times, and she ended up draining the can. The animal was finally collared by the owner...

That’s a rough start to the day, and I’m sorry to hear of it for both of you. Not that you need any nannying from me, but have you considered filing a report on the non-emergency line, just to have a paper trail?

I’m sure I’m not offering up any ideas you haven’t considered, but just in case.

Actually, here’s an idea you might not have considered:

https://nihonzashi.ecwid.com/Custom-Tetsubo-Kanabo-p115010279

https://dqzrr9k4bjpzk.cloudfront.net/images/14975055/899577966.jpg

[Clusterfrack]

That’s a rough start to the day, and I’m sorry to hear of it for both of you. Not that you need any nannying from me, but have you considered filing a report on the non-emergency line, just to have a paper trail?

I’m sure I’m not offering up any ideas you haven’t considered, but just in case.

Actually, here’s an idea you might not have considered:

https://nihonzashi.ecwid.com/Custom-Tetsubo-Kanabo-p115010279

https://dqzrr9k4bjpzk.cloudfront.net/images/14975055/899577966.jpg


^^^Shrek club! Oh yeah.

I'm laughing just thinking about Mrs. CF wielding that. It looks like it's as tall as she is.

I'll discuss filing a report with Mrs CF. Thanks for the suggestion.

[Coyotesfan97]

My wife just used an entire purse-sized can of Sabre on an aggressive off-leash dog this morning. We’ve had problems with this dog and its clueless and selfish owner for years, so this was not a surprise.

Mrs. CF sprayed the dog in the face at close range, but it came back two more times, and she ended up draining the can. The animal was finally collared by the owner.

This incident mirrors my own experience with OC type sprays and canines. It does not incapacitate dogs, but may be effective in discouraging an attack.

We are hoping that the owner gets a solid dose of OC from her animal.

That’s been my experience with dogs and OC. I emptied a belt canister on an aggressive dog before it left the front door and ran to the back of the shop. The owner was getting arrested for something. Dogs don’t like foggers and the cloud of OC just like they generally don’t like fire extinguishers

[Clusterfrack]

From a cop friend:
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200430/9f416212e0b9247e2ec9b12c69c7269a.jpg

[Clusterfrack]

This is a welcome surprise: a bag of chocolate and a thoughtful and apologetic note was on our doorstep this morning.


My wife just used an entire purse-sized can of Sabre on an aggressive off-leash dog this morning. We’ve had problems with this dog and its clueless and selfish owner for years, so this was not a surprise.

Mrs. CF sprayed the dog in the face at close range, but it came back two more times, and she ended up draining the can. The animal was finally collared by the owner.

This incident mirrors my own experience with OC type sprays and canines. It does not incapacitate dogs, but may be effective in discouraging an attack.

We are hoping that the owner gets a solid dose of OC from her animal.

[Guerrero]

This is a welcome surprise: a bag of chocolate and a thoughtful and apologetic note was on our doorstep this morning.

Was it chocolate made with chili powder? ;)

[Clusterfrack]

Was it chocolate made with chili powder? ;)

It did occur to me that it could be laced with OC :D.

[rob_s]

timely bump...

what's the groupthink here for best canister if concealment isn't as much an issue? Something to keep in the bob stroller or golf cart cupholder? Any option that's going to work better on dogs than not?

Good online source?

Speaking of dogs...
Also, loving the wooden stick/baton there. Kind of an overwhelming set of options there. I wish I could get to a sporting goods store to handle a small t-ball bat for the golf cart too...

[Clusterfrack]

timely bump...

what's the groupthink here for best canister if concealment isn't as much an issue? Something to keep in the bob stroller or golf cart cupholder? Any option that's going to work better on dogs than not?

Good online source?


I'm thinking that bear spray might be a good option.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0016WVQJU

[Duelist]

The only time I've had OC work decisively on a dog was when I sprayed it in the butthole. That dog stopped fighting right away and ran in circles.

Terrible. I legit laughed.

[rob_s]

I'm thinking that bear spray might be a good option.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0016WVQJU

any idea regarding legal issues hosing humans with that. I've heard anecdotally in the past that it's not kosher to hose a human with bear spray but not sure if that's real.

[Keith E.]

any idea regarding legal issues hosing humans with that. I've heard anecdotally in the past that it's not kosher to hose a human with bear spray but not sure if that's real.


Q: Why did you spray the mugger with "bear spray"?

A: I was carrying bear spray to defend myself against aggressive dogs as there are many documented cases of "standard" OC spray not being effective for that use. I used the "bear spray as a non-lethal means of defending myself as my only other option was a firearm.

[Clusterfrack]

any idea regarding legal issues hosing humans with that. I've heard anecdotally in the past that it's not kosher to hose a human with bear spray but not sure if that's real.

Not sure if it's kosher. Maybe if its approved by a rabbi?

But, I really don't know the answer. If I was being attacked by a person and happened to be carrying bear spray, it seems reasonable to use it? Hopefully someone with actual legal knowledge will comment.

[rob_s]

Q: Why did you spray the mugger with "bear spray"?

A: I was carrying bear spray to defend myself against aggressive dogs as there are many documented cases of "standard" OC spray not being effective for that use. I used the "bear spray as a non-lethal means of defending myself as my only other option was a firearm.


Not sure if it's kosher. Maybe if its approved by a rabbi?

But, I really don't know the answer. If I was being attacked by a person and happened to be carrying bear spray, it seems reasonable to use it? Hopefully someone with actual legal knowledge will comment.

I agree with both of these conceptually, it would just be good to know. Particularly if I'm sending my wife out with this stuff telling her "yeah, use this to keep the dogs and meth-heads away" and she winds up getting hauled off or otherwise cited for hosing a person.

Moreso what I'm concerned with is that we live in a sub-rural area with a wide demographic range. You've got the goat-boot, neck-beard, gold-chain-outside-shirt bocephus motherfuckers that think it's their god-given right to let their dog roam wild because "I was born and raised out here and so was my momma!" that are likely to get all sortsa offended if their precious is sent howling down the road pawing at their eyes.

[Clusterfrack]

How about a riot-sized unit?

Sabre 920060-C Sabre Red MK-9 DPS 18.5 oz Fog Delivery Spray

https://www.copsplus.com/sabre-sabre-red-mk-9-dps-18-5-oz-fog-delivery-spray

[Coyotesfan97]

I’d have to look but bear spray probably just has a high percentage of OC. For humans the higher the percentage the longer it takes to decon. 5% works just as well as 10% for the most part.

I’ve never shot a dog on duty. Tonight I came as close as I ever have. My dog was in the car when I got out on an alarm call. He was barking. As I’m walking across the parking lot a Pit Bull comes running around the corner and target locks on me. He’s coming to bite me. I have no doubt. I had my Maglite in my left hand. I swung/pushed it at him as he closed on me (1-2 feet away) while yelling a loud PFUI( Phooey) and flipping the light so I can shine it in his eyes. It’s a Dutch command. It’s a hard harsh command. The dog backed up long enough for the owner to run up and grab it. He says he’s working his “therapy” dog off leash in the retention bastion behind the business I’m checking. The dog hears barking and breaks. I tell him he’s lucky his dogs not shot dead because if it was a patrol Officer I have no doubt there’d have been a shooting.

Another handler was driving by to go around and check the back of the business. He saw it and told me he expected to here some pops. So he pulls up and tells the guy he’s getting a dog at large ticket. The owner starts getting shitty about it to him. He claims to be a homeless vet and had a fixed blade knife and a hatchet on him. Blood pressure rises I basically tell him he needs to STFU, man up, and be happy he doesn’t have a dead dog.

Anyways I never even considered OC as an option. I had a slit second to react and used what I had in my hand. If it hadn’t worked I’d would’ve had a Pit Bull on my leg and I would’ve shot it. Dead dog and a trip to the ER along with all the bullshit about how cops always shoot dogs. That’s the only thing I wish I’d told the owner. When you hear cops always shoot dogs you tell them about tonight.

[blues]

Apropos of Coyotesfan97 post above...from Active Self Protection this morning:


https://youtu.be/3r761hZeTtU

[Clusterfrack]

Coyotesfan97, Yikes! I'm qlad that incident ended without you getting hurt or having to shoot a dog. Your story is a reminder of how situations that are hopefully rare for civilians are commonplace for LEOs. Thanks for all you do.


I’d have to look but bear spray probably just has a high percentage of OC. For humans the higher the percentage the longer it takes to decon. 5% works just as well as 10% for the most part.

I’ve never shot a dog on duty. Tonight I came as close as I ever have. My dog was in the car when I got out on an alarm call. He was barking. As I’m walking across the parking lot a Pit Bull comes running around the corner and target locks on me. He’s coming to bite me. I have no doubt. I had my Maglite in my left hand. I swung/pushed it at him as he closed on me (1-2 feet away) while yelling a loud PFUI( Phooey) and flipping the light so I can shine it in his eyes. It’s a Dutch command. It’s a hard harsh command. The dog backed up long enough for the owner to run up and grab it. He says he’s working his “therapy” dog off leash in the retention bastion behind the business I’m checking. The dog hears barking and breaks. I tell him he’s lucky his dogs not shot dead because if it was a patrol Officer I have no doubt there’d have been a shooting.

Another handler was driving by to go around and check the back of the business. He saw it and told me he expected to here some pops. So he pulls up and tells the guy he’s getting a dog at large ticket. The owner starts getting shitty about it to him. He claims to be a homeless vet and had a fixed blade knife and a hatchet on him. Blood pressure rises I basically tell him he needs to STFU, man up, and be happy he doesn’t have a dead dog.

Anyways I never even considered OC as an option. I had a slit second to react and used what I had in my hand. If it hadn’t worked I’d would’ve had a Pit Bull on my leg and I would’ve shot it. Dead dog and a trip to the ER along with all the bullshit about how cops always shoot dogs. That’s the only thing I wish I’d told the owner. When you hear cops always shoot dogs you tell them about tonight.

[Coyotesfan97]

Coyotesfan97, Yikes! I'm qlad that incident ended without you getting hurt or having to shoot a dog. Your story is a reminder of how situations that are hopefully rare for civilians are commonplace for LEOs. Thanks for all you do.

From one CF to another thank you!

[Bratch]

What’s the current group think on pepper spray in the time of ‘Rona and everyone wearing face mask? Is there any effectiveness lost in just hitting the eyes with if the mouth and nose are obstructed?

I had a guy stink eye me throughout the garden center at Lowe’s this afternoon for swapping a bad cart for a not bad cart before he could get it. He was masked up and I was thinking through how effective my POM would be with only eyes open if he tried to cause a scene.

[jnc36rcpd]

A mask may or may not reduce respiratory effects, depending upon both the mark and the type/quality of the spray. That said, every OC I've encountered will affect vision. With my current department's gel, that's all that's advertised or that I would hope for.

[David S.]

How about a riot-sized unit?

Sabre 920060-C Sabre Red MK-9 DPS 18.5 oz Fog Delivery Spray

https://www.copsplus.com/sabre-sabre-red-mk-9-dps-18-5-oz-fog-delivery-spray

(Out of my lane)

I'm not sure a fogger is a good idea for "CCW". I wonder if they make something similar in a stream or gel.

[Bratch]

(Out of my lane)

I'm not sure a fogger is a good idea for "CCW". I wonder if they make something similar in a stream or gel.

If I remember correctly Chuck Haggard has discussed using a fogger in the CCW as an areal denial role, i.e. fogging a hallway to make an escape during an active shooter event.

[Keith E.]

Apropos of Coyotesfan97 post above...from Active Self Protection this morning:


https://youtu.be/3r761hZeTtU


Did you catch the part about the first 180JHP bouncing off the skull of the would-be biter?

Keith

[rob_s]

Funnily enough, over the weekend I *almost* had a need to test the effectiveness of OC on a large dog. I was out on a bike ride with my two daughters, 9 and 11, when a large malamute looking dog, unkept, drooling, came out of a hedgerow along the front of a house. My older daughter was in the lead and stopped her bike, I was in the middle and followed suit, and youngest stopped behind me. Oldest was actually bitten, which her sister saw, a couple of weeks ago (separate story) but the older one is a dog nut and didn't seem bothered too much by the new dog, but the younger who witnessed the last bite started getting visibly stressed out. Having no OC I had left the house with my NAA .22mag in the pocket, so I palmed that and kept talking to the kids in a happy voice, trying to stay between youngest and the dog, largely to no avail due to their unpredictable movements and dealing with bikes. The dog *seemed* friendly enough and things ended without incident, but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't weighing in my mind for a moment if it would be more traumatic for my kid(s) to see me put 5 in the dog's dome or her go into some kind of shock as she stood there almost hyperventilating.

That got me thinking about this thread, thinking about every problem nail because:hammer, but also wondering if I wouldn't wind up pissing off a larger dog like that with the oc to the point that it may identify the point of pain as me.

In any event, the kids got a major earful about responsibility, who's "fault" it was that 11 got bit a few weeks ago, and my general opinion of people that say things like "it's not my fault".

Either way, I'm clicking "submit" on a shopping cart full of options from Amazon today, including a cheap 26" t-ball bat to put in the shotgun scabbard when we're carting around the 'hood.

[Clusterfrack]

rob_s, glad that worked out ok. When little kids are involved, the stakes are so much higher. When our girls were small, I was ruthless about people’s off leash dogs running up.

“Call your dog”
“Don’t worry he’s friendly!”
“Call your dog. It can’t be near my kids.”

I haven’t experienced or heard about OC enraging a dog further than it already is. I’m curious if anyone has info on that.

[Coyotesfan97]

I’ve never heard or seen that it enrages dogs. Most of my experience is it just doesn’t effect them like it does humans. What I have seen is the mist/fog stopping or diverting them. But dogs see things differently. Smoke or mist may appear to be a wall to them. That’s one of the things we expose our working dogs to. Our gas house with a decoy in a bite suit inside. A hot/burning gas CS canister. They get exposed to gas and “smoke” at the same time. They have to go through the “smoke” to find and bite the decoy. CS doesn’t stop them and they show little effects from it.

Here’s a good read from a notable K9 expert/trainer Bob Eden about exposing working dogs to OC. He notes the dog seems effected and bites harder when sprayed. Afterwards dog tries to get OC off him. Then an area search is done and the dog locates the decoy and bites the sleeve

https://www.policek9.com/html/oc.html

I’ve seen video but I can’t find it of the area search after the K9 was exposed to OC.

[jnc36rcpd]

(Out of my lane)

I'm not sure a fogger is a good idea for "CCW". I wonder if they make something similar in a stream or gel.

David, that's actually a fire extinguisher type device intended for riots and hostile crowds. Saber does produce a variety of products better suited for self defense in both stream and gel. That said, I organized and ran the OC program at my previous employer and still maintain instructor certification. For most self-defense applications (law enforcement/security or citizen), cone-shaped sprays are generally better. One has a much greater chance for immediate effects on the threat, be it two or four-legged.

Some may have a need for stream if deployment at longer distances is needed. Gel should be reserved for environments where cross-contamination would pose significant problems (health care, corrections, large crowded venues where stampedes are a possibility).

[Crusader8207]

I had the opportunity to use it yesterday on two dogs. 0800 I was taking our puppy for a walk when I walked past my neighbors house and his two pitbulls came charging down the driveway. I had the Sabre Red MK6 out and effectively sprayed both of them in the eyes. They both immediately retreated and we continued on our walk. (I was really surprised that they did and fully expected to have to shoot them). When I returned, both dogs were not outside any longer.( I have zero communication with the neighbor as he is a member of an outlaw biker club and he makes sure to not interact with me at all). I did call the S.O. to take a report and to tell the guy to keep his dogs tethered as the next incident may not have favorable outcome for his dogs. The Deputy said both dogs faces were red from the dye and the owner subsequently felt the residual effects of being exposed to the spray (hahahahaha). Side note, we live in the country and have no laws or ordinances for dogs.

[Clusterfrack]

Crusader8207, Fuckyeah!

[blues]

I had the opportunity to use it yesterday on two dogs. 0800 I was taking our puppy for a walk when I walked past my neighbors house and his two pitbulls came charging down the driveway. I had the Sabre Red MK6 out and effectively sprayed both of them in the eyes. They both immediately retreated and we continued on our walk. (I was really surprised that they did and fully expected to have to shoot them). When I returned, both dogs were not outside any longer.( I have zero communication with the neighbor as he is a member of an outlaw biker club and he makes sure to not interact with me at all). I did call the S.O. to take a report and to tell the guy to keep his dogs tethered as the next incident may not have favorable outcome for his dogs. The Deputy said both dogs faces were red from the dye and the owner subsequently felt the residual effects of being exposed to the spray (hahahahaha). Side note, we live in the country and have no laws or ordinances for dogs.

I know I don't need to say it, but be careful and safe, brother. There are few people I trust less in the world.

[Crusader8207]

I know I don't need to say it, but be careful and safe, brother. There are few people I trust less in the world.

Thank you and will do.

[Crashpad]

I ordered a couple of these to mount to my mountain bikes.
https://www.sabrered.com/pepper-spray/magnum-120-pepper-spray-flip-top

After having to empty my daily carried Mk6 unit to keep from getting bit recently while out riding and then encountering a separate situation near the trail head that could have easily turned into me needing to spray a crackhead (and not having any more OC on me!) I've decided that the bikes get their own cannister. Since I won't be limited by pocket space why not go bigger.

[David S.]

I ordered a couple of these to mount to my mountain bikes.
https://www.sabrered.com/pepper-spray/magnum-120-pepper-spray-flip-top

This is what I’d want for the non- concealed role.

[Fish 14]

If I were her I'd take my chances and carry on the job. There's 1,000s of good paying jobs out there but only one chance at life.

[Chuck Haggard]

I haven't run through the whole thread, so might be repeating stuff.

My go-to OC spray recommendations for carry for most people included the Sabre MK6 "Red" streamer, the POM units, and the Sabre/ASP key stick/kubotan sprayer.

For larger units the Sabre mk3 sized Red in cone shaped mist or the Crossfire streamer.

No gel. Period, regardless of what Sabre recommends. It's too fucking slow to take effect, period. 30+ seconds is way too long in a fight.

What type of spray? is completely determined by your needs. Cone is the A answer in OC spray, and the most effective way to use it for police work or personal defense.

The risk of "overspray" or "blow back" is greatly overstated.

[Yung]

I ordered this with its 'ert' counterpart for my mom, along with two inert cone Mk3s for me, from Streicher's on June 22nd and got a shipping notice on September the 28th.

I took a few minutes to walk my mom through pulling the pin and depressing the plunger, and then firing at me while seated, and while standing and moving. She got to see the realistic range for best saturation, which was between 3 to 5 yards, so she knows that in the event she needs to spray someone, she really needs to be moving. I finished by setting my shot timer for a 3 second par and demonstrated how close an intruder could advance from most likely points of entry, versus how all that time gets eaten up going from a kicked-back-on-the-couch start to retrieving the canister from where it is staged just a couple feet away.

61180

[dustyvarmint]

I've taken Chuck's class 2x and MDFI's class 1x. Also been sprayed 2x in the military.

Based on Chuck's recommendation I have always consistently carried the MK6 Sabre Red even if the form factor isn't the greatest. The molded clip is strong, but it easily slides off a belt. So, it gets clipped in my right front pocket. It isn't infallible, though. Within about 4 runs (I'm a runner) one lost its button never to be recovered.

61319

Sabre Red does make a POM keychain form factor in spray, but you gotta search for it. I don't like them as my immediate grasp always puts my index finger over the nozzle. Chuck has told me they are more for pre-risk area grasp than emergency grasp.

61320

Recently, being in SE Wisconsin, I've picked up 2 Sabre Red MK9 canisters for the wife's use from the passenger side of the car and for house use. One is the DPS fogger and one is the Home Defense gel. In my research and in talking to Chuck I feel I should have gone with two foggers.

Although some good peeps are recommending POM I'm staying away due to the breakage issues mentioned in this thread.

happy OCing, Jerry

[blues]

Although some good peeps are recommending POM I'm staying away due to the breakage issues mentioned in this thread.

happy OCing, Jerry

Been carrying the POM pocket clip version pretty religiously now for several months. In and out of pockets several times daily...depending on clothing changes for working out, yard work, walking the dog, mailbox runs or going to town. No issues with the clip nor the spring loaded cap (thus far).

Of course I've just jinxed myself so...expect a breakage report any day now. ;)

Wife carries the key chain version...not quite as religiously.

[rob_s]

Been carrying the POM pocket clip version pretty religiously now for several months. In and out of pockets several times daily...depending on clothing changes for working out, yard work, walking the dog, mailbox runs or going to town. No issues with the clip nor the spring loaded cap (thus far).

Of course I've just jinxed myself so...expect a breakage report any day now. ;)

This is the type to which you are referring?
https://www.amazon.com/POM-Pepper-Spray-Flip-Pocket/dp/B08995CV7Y

[RoyGBiv]

This is the type to which you are referring?
https://www.amazon.com/POM-Pepper-Spray-Flip-Pocket/dp/B08995CV7Y

That's the one I'm carrying. No breakages after a year plus.
When I leave the house these days, I swap my pocket knife for this POM clip version. Better for maintaining social distances.
The flip top has seen its share of thumb flicking. Still operating nominally.

FWIW.

[camsdaddy]

I am curious if spray has an expiration date? Yesterday while walking my dog two dogs came off of a neighbors porch and the three began growling. I had dog in strong hand and sabre red in off hand. After a few loud verbal commands the owner came and called their dogs. As I was walking off I was thankful to have it but i also couldn't remember when I bought it.
Is Sabre or POM the go to?

[dustyvarmint]

When I leave the house these days, I swap my pocket knife for this POM clip version. Better for maintaining social distances.

Hah! That's exactly what I do!!! I swap my clipped flipper knife for the MK6.

[blues]

This is the type to which you are referring?
https://www.amazon.com/POM-Pepper-Spray-Flip-Pocket/dp/B08995CV7Y

Correct...except I only have one, and a different color.

[blues]

I am curious if spray has an expiration date? Yesterday while walking my dog two dogs came off of a neighbors porch and the three began growling. I had dog in strong hand and sabre red in off hand. After a few loud verbal commands the owner came and called their dogs. As I was walking off I was thankful to have it but i also couldn't remember when I bought it.
Is Sabre or POM the go to?

If you pull off the bottom part of the POM shell, the expiration date is listed on the canister. Usually about three years or so from date of purchase in our case.

[Joe S]

Some time ago, someone had posted a good beginner's how-to video on OC use. I searched this thread and a few others to no avail. I had just picked up some Sabre Red for the mother and sister in law, who finally agreed with recent events that they would carry it (only took 8 years or so).

They're both sharp and fairly aware ladies, but seriously under matched when it comes to a potential physical altercation. Anyone have any good videos on the basics of use? Not a longer MUC, or OC vs. Whatever video.

Thanks.

[Guerrero]

Some time ago, someone had posted a good beginner's how-to video on OC use. I searched this thread and a few others to no avail. I had just picked up some Sabre Red for the mother and sister in law, who finally agreed with recent events that they would carry it (only took 8 years or so).

They're both sharp and fairly aware ladies, but seriously under matched when it comes to a potential physical altercation. Anyone have any good videos on the basics of use? Not a longer MUC, or OC vs. Whatever video.

Thanks.

John Correia at Active Self Protection Extra did a nine(!) part series of Chuck Haggard's OC class. Here's the first part:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQ12QQ4TfWo

[scw2]

Is Sabre or POM the go to?

That seems to be the consensus. The POM's clip is a potential point of failure, but a benefit of the design/color makes it seem less tactical to a cursory search. Personally, my wife has no desire to carry a sabre OC but given the nicer looking package of the POM, she's more open to carrying so that could be a positive as well for certain family members.

[Coyotesfan97]

I am curious if spray has an expiration date? Yesterday while walking my dog two dogs came off of a neighbors porch and the three began growling. I had dog in strong hand and sabre red in off hand. After a few loud verbal commands the owner came and called their dogs. As I was walking off I was thankful to have it but i also couldn't remember when I bought it.
Is Sabre or POM the go to?

I think it was blues who told me where to find the expiration date on the POM. The expiration date is really for the propellant rather than the OC. The pressure might have lowered with age as propellants can leak. I’ve seen plenty of “expired” units that sprayed fine and the agent still worked. :cool: But I’ve also seen a few where the agent dribbled out.

[Coyotesfan97]

That seems to be the consensus. The POM's clip is a potential point of failure, but a benefit of the design/color makes it seem less tactical to a cursory search. Personally, my wife has no desire to carry a sabre OC but given the nicer looking package of the POM, she's more open to carrying so that could be a positive as well for certain family members.

I have the POM in gray with the orange stripe. I’ve had it for about a year and it’s EDC. No issues with the clip. I also bought another for my oldest daughter.

[camsdaddy]

I think it was blues who told me where to find the expiration date on the POM. The expiration date is really for the propellant rather than the OC. The pressure might have lowered with age as propellants can leak. I’ve seen plenty of “expired” units that sprayed fine and the agent still worked. :cool: But I’ve also seen a few where the agent dribbled out.
I guess my spray was my primary. If it had drizzled I would have used my back up of a 642. I had no intentions of getting bit.

[Coyotesfan97]

I guess my spray was my primary. If it had drizzled I would have used my back up of a 642. I had no intentions of getting bit.

The few units I’ve seen fail were pretty expired.

[RAM Engineer]

I've taken Chuck's class 2x and MDFI's class 1x. Also been sprayed 2x in the military.

Based on Chuck's recommendation I have always consistently carried the MK6 Sabre Red even if the form factor isn't the greatest. The molded clip is strong, but it easily slides off a belt. So, it gets clipped in my right front pocket. It isn't infallible, though. Within about 4 runs (I'm a runner) one lost its button never to be recovered.

61319



I can't find the Mk6 form factor sprays on Sabre's website to save my life. Have they discontinued it? I sent an email to Sabre asking, but have not gotten a response.

[dustyvarmint]

I can't find the Mk6 form factor sprays on Sabre's website to save my life. Have they discontinued it? I sent an email to Sabre asking, but have not gotten a response.

I think it is in the LE section where I cannot also get to immediately. I've found Sabre to not have the greatest customer service. At any rate, get it here. Just got one from them.

https://www.copsplus.com/sabre-sabre-red-h2o-mk-6-69-oz-stream-delivery-spray

happy OCing, Jerry

[Clusterfrack]

I guess my spray was my primary. If it had drizzled I would have used my back up of a 642. I had no intentions of getting bit.

One of the times I used OC on dogs, the nozzle was clogged with pocket lint. Some spray came out, but not in a good stream. The situation involved two GSD's trying to kill my dog, and a substance-impaired owner. This was before CCW was legal on school grounds, where the dog park was, so I had no backup. Not good... My dog managed to get his jaws on the male GSD's throat and he hung on and got dragged around underneath. After a few failed attempts to spray the female in the face while she was barking at me, she turned to attack my dog and I grabbed her tail and sprayed her in the butthole at close range. That worked quite well.

[blues]

I can't find the Mk6 form factor sprays on Sabre's website to save my life. Have they discontinued it? I sent an email to Sabre asking, but have not gotten a response.

Looks like it's a "Deal of the Day" on Cops Plus. https://www.copsplus.com/sabre-sabre-red-h2o-mk-6-69-oz-stream-delivery-spray

No experience with the product or website.

[UNK]

This thread delivers the hot sauce. Ive seen the kimber unit in a pocket dump photo here on PF. Lost River I think.
Its limited to two shots I believe but also looks perfect for pocket carry. Any input on these?

[kobuksonhwacha]

This thread delivers the hot sauce. Ive seen the kimber unit in a pocket dump photo here on PF. Lost River I think.
Its limited to two shots I believe but also looks perfect for pocket carry. Any input on these?

https://www.abc4.com/news/local-news/man-who-loses-eye-after-being-pepper-sprayed-sues-city-of-st-george-3-officers/ The Pepperblaster/JPX line of products is a *bad* idea. The above incident is not an isolated one. I carried a Pepperblaster before I was old enough to obtain my CCW and stopped. If you want a capable unit with some range for pocket carry the Sabre MK-6 will still probably be your best bet.

[UNK]

https://www.abc4.com/news/local-news/man-who-loses-eye-after-being-pepper-sprayed-sues-city-of-st-george-3-officers/ The Pepperblaster/JPX line of products is a *bad* idea. The above incident is not an isolated one. I carried a Pepperblaster before I was old enough to obtain my CCW and stopped. If you want a capable unit with some range for pocket carry the Sabre MK-6 will still probably be your best bet.

Thanks K appreciate it.

[jnc36rcpd]

I evaluated the Phazzer Enforcer for my previous agency and later for an article in "New York Tactical". The Phazzer was designed as competition to the more established Axon Taser. The Enforce. in addition to its electronic probes, can also discharge Pepperball, impact rounds for suspects or glass, paint, and a pepper blast. Apart from my concerns about reloading into a bay likely covered with OC, I expressed concerns about the eye safe distance of the OC blast. I received some vague assurances that it was nothing to worry about. Even if we had adopted the Phazzer product, I wouldn't have approved the pepper blaster.

As much as I'd like to competition with Axon, I'd stick with established products unless you have in-house capability for valid testing. That means Taser and OC products and designs like Sabre Red.

[Lost River]

This thread delivers the hot sauce. Ive seen the kimber unit in a pocket dump photo here on PF. Lost River I think.
Its limited to two shots I believe but also looks perfect for pocket carry. Any input on these?

Twas not me.

I rarely carry spray, other than big cans of bear spray every now and then. I actually gave my daughter Kimber my big bottle of bear spray to keep in her car for travelling. I figure if it works for bears, it will work for A-holes who think the pretty little girl is defenseless. I additionally advised her that it is preferable that she not to shoot them if she can just hose them with bear spray, but its really her choice.:D

I also told her that my old philosophy used to be "One Can-One Man". Just hose the living shit out of them.

I had to use the crap multiple times early in my career and I hate the stuff, as I am very much affected by it, so I try of avoid it at all costs. In fact I completely quit carrying it many years ago. Leaves me too vulnerable.

That unfortunately did not stop me from getting sprayed not once, but TWICE while working. I was fighting suspects, rolling on the ground, the usual stuff and called for help. Both times, female cops arrived to "help". Both times instead of diving in, they sprayed both me and the suspect/s.

On one I actually got written up because of the things I said to the worthless @$%^ after my face stopped burning, and I was able to breath. Apparently I offended her..


Sidebar,
Recently I have spent a BUNCH of time in Grizzly country in various parts of MT and have not bothered with spray. I have been carrying my Glock 30S with some hot loaded hardball ammo, or my 4" Redhawk and 305 grain Hard cast SWCs.

https://i.imgur.com/GKaKNFp.jpg

The number of people who not only don't take any precautions (such as spray, if they don't like guns) but actively bait the bears to shred their asses up, by their (beyond stupid) habits/behavior is incredible. We call them "tourists/transplants"..

[UNK]

Twas not me.

I rarely carry spray, other than big cans of bear spray every now and then. I actually gave my daughter Kimber my big bottle of bear spray to keep in her car for travelling. I figure if it works for bears, it will work for A-holes who think the pretty little girl is defenseless. I additionally advised her that it is preferable that she not to shoot them if she can just hose them with bear spray, but its really her choice.:D

I also told her that my old philosophy used to be "One Can-One Man". Just hose the living shit out of them.

I had to use the crap multiple times early in my career and I hate the stuff, as I am very much affected by it, so I try of avoid it at all costs. In fact I completely quit carrying it many years ago. Leaves me too vulnerable.

That unfortunately did not stop me from getting sprayed not once, but TWICE while working. I was fighting suspects, rolling on the ground, the usual stuff and called for help. Both times, female cops arrived to "help". Both times instead of diving in, they sprayed both me and the suspect/s.

On one I actually got written up because of the things I said to the worthless @$%^ after my face stopped burning, and I was able to breath. Apparently I offended her..


Sidebar,
Recently I have spent a BUNCH of time in Grizzly country in various parts of MT and have not bothered with spray. I have been carrying my Glock 30S with some hot loaded hardball ammo, or my 4" Redhawk and 305 grain Hard cast SWCs.

https://i.imgur.com/GKaKNFp.jpg

The number of people who not only don't take any precautions (such as spray, if they don't like guns) but actively bait the bears to shred their asses up, by their (beyond stupid) habits/behavior is incredible. We call them "tourists/transplants"..

I remember the day in the Quonset hut getting my first exposure to gas. You know you thoroughly exposed when the snot streams reach your knees and your skin feels on fire.