Last Of The Breed: Marine Corps M45A1

[Amp]

Good article about the M45A1 by Justin Dyal.

https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2019/6/24/last-of-the-breed-marine-corps-m45a1/?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=insider&utm_campaign=0719

[UniSol]

Nice. I was issued one of the older Quantico built guns in my short career as Reconnaissance Marine in the early-mid 2000s.

[Randy Harris]

One of my students got one of these and it is pretty cool. Maybe not the ideal carry gun, but an intriguing piece of history nonetheless. I'd love to have one...I just wouldn't want to have to pay for it.

[LittleLebowski]

Justin Dyal is a friend of this forum, I met him at ToddG’s Memorial shoot where he spoke.

[Amp]

He's a great shooter also. I shot beside him at a Hackathorn/Vickers handgun class and it didn't matter if he was shooting a Beretta 92 or a 1911, he was burning it down.

[TiroFijo]

Are any of these 1911s still in use by the USMC? Why?? Is there anything they do that cannot be accomplished by the G19?

The article states that... "the M45 serves on with a few specialized Marine Corps units and is expected to for a few more years".

[Duelist]

Are any of these 1911s still in use by the USMC? Why?? Is there anything they do that cannot be accomplished by the G19?

The article states that... "the M45 serves on with a few specialized Marine Corps units and is expected to for a few more years".

A G19 is a great gun. But this is the USMC. Chesty Puller used a 1911 in .45 ACP. A G19 can not become a 1911, nor shoot .45. For some, that will be reason enough to never switch.

[HCM]

Are any of these 1911s still in use by the USMC? Why?? Is there anything they do that cannot be accomplished by the G19?

The article states that... "the M45 serves on with a few specialized Marine Corps units and is expected to for a few more years".

For the same reason the French Elite units still maintain .357 revolvers - panache and they are part of their image.

There is psychological value in that image both within (esprite de Corps) and when projected outside.

[UniSol]

Are any of these 1911s still in use by the USMC? Why?? Is there anything they do that cannot be accomplished by the G19?

The article states that... "the M45 serves on with a few specialized Marine Corps units and is expected to for a few more years".

I've been out of the loop for a while, but maybe institutional inertia...I don't know. The MEUSOC 1911s (the older "Quantico built" guns) have been in use for a long time by the Force Recon Companies (or Direct Action/Deep Reconnaissance platoons if the Force mission is housed inside a Division level Reconnaissance unit, like 3rd Recon Bn. in Okinawa).

[LittleLebowski]

A G19 is a great gun. But this is the USMC. Chesty Puller used a 1911 in .45 ACP. A G19 can not become a 1911, nor shoot .45. For some, that will be reason enough to never switch.

Not for this Marine.

[JonInWA]

As a former field-grade Army officer with some decent troop-leadership time, having been issued a M1911 and M1911A1 in the distant past when dinosaurs roamed the earth, I would take a Glock G19, G17 or G21 (or a Gen4 G22) in a heartbeat over a 1911-any 1911.

It's a good article-one of the best I've ever seen out of American Rifleman-but while I appreciate and enjoy my 3 1911s, in my opinion a Glock is simply a superior battlefield implement. They're lighter, less maintenance intensive, more easily field- and detail-disassembled, more weather impervious, and significantly higher capacity (which actually can be a viable consideration in a military pistol).

I understand the appeal of these USMC 1911s, but from a practical standpoint the selection of a Glock just makes far more sense-and the inherent accuracy increases of the Gen5s make it even more compelling.

As a sidebar note, I saw some of the images of the decommissioned M1945A1s that were offered; one of them had been crudely graced with a Sharpie rendition of a penis and testicles on one side of the slide. As a Gunnery Sergeant buddy of mine succinctly said, shaking his head when we were discussing it, said example had been effectively "Lance Criminalized." The authenticity of THAT example is certainly unquestioned...

Best, Jon

[JonInWA]

For the same reason the French Elite units still maintain .357 revolvers - panache and they are part of their image.

There is psychological value in that image both within (esprite de Corps) and when projected outside.

Actually, my understanding is that GIGN officers carry BOTH a MR73 in .357 magnum, and a Glock 17; the MR73 is intended to be the initial/primary pistol due to its accuracy and .357 magnum chambering (and there are several sub-variants available depending upon the GIGN officer's specific role), but after initial use or as events dictate, the officer will likely transition to the Glock.

The MR73s are retained for very pragmatic reasons, not just for romantic appeal; similarly with their selection and use of Glocks.

A new Chapuis Manhurin MR73 and/or MR88 are high on my bucket list of desirable; nice as it is, a USMC M45A1 or a Colt commercial facsimile of it, not so much.

Best, Jon

[JHC]

As a former field-grade Army officer with some decent troop-leadership time, having been issued a M1911 and M1911A1 in the distant past when dinosaurs roamed the earth, I would take a Glock G19, G17 or G21 (or a Gen4 G22) in a heartbeat over a 1911-any 1911.

It's a good article-one of the best I've ever seen out of American Rifleman-but while I appreciate and enjoy my 3 1911s, in my opinion a Glock is simply a superior battlefield implement. They're lighter, less maintenance intensive, more easily field- and detail-disassembled, more weather impervious, and significantly higher capacity (which actually can be a viable consideration in a military pistol).

I understand the appeal of these USMC 1911s, but from a practical standpoint the selection of a Glock just makes far more sense-and the inherent accuracy increases of the Gen5s make it even more compelling.

As a sidebar note, I saw some of the images of the decommissioned M1945A1s that were offered; one of them had been crudely graced with a Sharpie rendition of a penis and testicles on one side of the slide. As a Gunnery Sergeant buddy of mine succinctly said, shaking his head when we were discussing it, said example had been effectively "Lance Criminalized." The authenticity of THAT example is certainly unquestioned...

Best, Jon


And both MARSOC and the Marine SOF unit that predated them were already rolling with G19s when the M45 was being selected. An industry guy supplying them (and a made man on LF forum back then) tipped me to that. G19s listed in unclassified briefing slides of their combat pistol. As he noted, they already had the pistol they wanted.

[Danjojo]

Agree with many of previous comments.

I kind of want one just because...USMC. Very strong sex appeal and don't currently own any 1911's. Wish they marked them as decommissioned in a different way.

IMO, one or another variant of HK USP 45 should have been the only issued 45's in the past 20 years.

And not a Glock guy but I understand the G19's desirability. I carry a Walther 99/PPQ pretty often for the same reasons even though I'm really a hammer-fired DA/SA guy at heart. 2lbs with a healthy mag onboard and a grip just big enough is nice while doing everything day to day. The more active you are, the better 2lbs is.

Sweat, dust, lint, cheetos, etc. only show up on slide serrations and base of sights, can clean when you get around to it. Basic armorer skills replace jacked up or worn part without fitting/gunsmith.

Still - picky, high maintenance chicks are lots of fun despite headaches or heartbeaks and life is short.

[WobblyPossum]

He's a great shooter also. I shot beside him at a Hackathorn/Vickers handgun class and it didn't matter if he was shooting a Beretta 92 or a 1911, he was burning it down.

No kidding. I think he may have set the course record for Hackathorn’s Tri-Presidente on the second day of that class.

[UNM1136]

And both MARSOC and the Marine SOF unit that predated them were already rolling with G19s when the M45 was being selected. An industry guy supplying them (and a made man on LF forum back then) tipped me to that. G19s listed in unclassified briefing slides of their combat pistol. As he noted, they already had the pistol they wanted.

Yup. He also had several G19s, a couple with problems, but the ones that ran RAN!

pat

[HCM]

Actually, my understanding is that GIGN officers carry BOTH a MR73 in .357 magnum, and a Glock 17; the MR73 is intended to be the initial/primary pistol due to its accuracy and .357 magnum chambering (and there are several sub-variants available depending upon the GIGN officer's specific role), but after initial use or as events dictate, the officer will likely transition to the Glock.

The MR73s are retained for very pragmatic reasons, not just for romantic appeal; similarly with their selection and use of Glocks.

A new Chapuis Manhurin MR73 and/or MR88 are high on my bucket list of desirable; nice as it is, a USMC M45A1 or a Colt commercial facsimile of it, not so much.

Best, Jon

Yeah, I’m not really buying that. Like the marines adopting the M27 as a “SAW replacement” there are official reasons and real reasons.

[Mjolnir]

Are any of these 1911s still in use by the USMC? Why?? Is there anything they do that cannot be accomplished by the G19?

The article states that... "the M45 serves on with a few specialized Marine Corps units and is expected to for a few more years".

Shootability second to no polymer pistol.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[03RN]

And both MARSOC and the Marine SOF unit that predated them were already rolling with G19s when the M45 was being selected. An industry guy supplying them (and a made man on LF forum back then) tipped me to that. G19s listed in unclassified briefing slides of their combat pistol. As he noted, they already had the pistol they wanted.

Force Recon still uses them

[JSGlock34]

Thanks for posting - I've always found the last iterations of the 1911 in Army and USMC service fascinating. I enjoyed building my own replica of one of the many MEUSOC M45 variants - they're a fun rabbit hole for 1911 geeks. But in the last two decades the USMC also turned to a number of small commercial procurements to supplement the MEUSOC pistols built in-house by PWS armorers, including the Kimber ICQB, the Springfield Professional (many of which were horribly tortured into MEUSOC configuration), and (most intriguing to me) a run of Springfield Custom pistol built to USMC specifications in 2007. The Colt M45A1 was the last 1911 procurement, but personally I find it less compelling than these other models. The Colt M45A1's fielding was problematic from the start (besides the finish issues documented in the American Rifleman story, they had significant problems during testing with frame cracking).

Plus the roll mark is hideous.


Are any of these 1911s still in use by the USMC? Why?? Is there anything they do that cannot be accomplished by the G19?

Just to note, the G19 is available to MARSOC via SOCOM MFP11 funding, and they have moved on from the Colt. Force Reconnaissance is not SOCOM or MARSOC and so are limited to USMC firearms, which do not include the G19 (notwithstanding the very recent and short lived 'M007' purchase). I'm not arguing the point that the G19 is the better choice as a modern service pistol, but bureaucratically the MARSOC transition to the G19 was relatively easy to accomplish because they are a SOCOM organization. I suspect Force Reconnaissance will move to the M18 when those become available.

Besides MARSOC and Force Reconnaissance, the M45A1 has also been used by USMC Military Police SRT members.

https://c.wallhere.com/photos/4d/ed/japan_training_marine_rifles_jp_sniper_militarypol ice_okinawa-967329.jpg!d


For the same reason the French Elite units still maintain .357 revolvers - panache and they are part of their image.


Actually, my understanding is that GIGN officers carry BOTH a MR73 in .357 magnum, and a Glock 17...

GIGN's sister unit, GIPN, also issued the MR73. If GIPN's deployment after the 2015 Paris attacks offers any insight, the MR73 stays home.

But they bring all the Glocks.

http://i2.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article4943203.ece/ALTERNATES/s1227b/Charlie-Hebdo.jpg
http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnnnext/dam/assets/150108121458-07-paris-shooting-0108-super-169.jpg
https://assets.bwbx.io/images/users/iqjWHBFdfxIU/iFCJYNgVMrOU/v2/1200x809.jpg

[03RN]

Shootability second to no polymer pistol.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

http://soldiersystems.net/2015/10/06/bcm-gunfighter-history-travis-haley-an-exercise-in-compromise/

I would not argue that a lighter/higher capacity gun would make sense for a GP side arm but for someone with a direct action mission I can see the benefits of a 1911. I can get hits on multiple small moving targets at 25 yards with mine that I can not do with glocks.

[SeriousStudent]

I like mine, for purely nostalgic reasons.

39670

39671

I was briefly given a MEU(SOC) 1911 to tote during a deployment. Since I grew up carrying a 1911 as a kid, it was a familiar feeling.

I was in the FMF when we transitioned from the 1911 baby-rattles to the Italian-built Beretta's. I loved the fact that I could hit anything I aimed at with the Beretta, unlike the 1911's which had eleventy-billion rounds through it.

My boss at the time wanted me to carry a 1911, so I uttered a crisp "Aye aye, Sir" and did so.

I got this one during the Gunbroker sale/debacle. A buddy has it right now, and has wrenched on it for me. It shoots very well now. Wayne Dobbs looked it over when I got it, and recommended some work. My friend is pretty skilled, and has friends who are even more skilled. I'm sure it's very nice now. I'll get it back this fall.

Yeah, it was an impulse buy, and will eventually belong to a friend that was also a Marine. He carried a 1911 as well.

[scjbash]

He's a great shooter also. I shot beside him at a Hackathorn/Vickers handgun class and it didn't matter if he was shooting a Beretta 92 or a 1911, he was burning it down.

Justin taught a two day handgun class that a buddy hosted here so I snagged a spot. If you ever get the chance to get in a class of his I highly recommend it. I don't believe he teaches open enrollment classes very often.

[JHC]

Force Recon still uses them

That's cool!

[JonInWA]

Yeah, I’m not really buying that. Like the marines adopting the M27 as a “SAW replacement” there are official reasons and real reasons.

http://larvatus.com/manurhin-mr73-2/

A bit of a long and detailed read, but p-f member Michael Zeleny provides a detailed account of the MR73 selection and operational use with GIGN, as wella s the GIGN use of both the MR73 and Glocks in conjunction.

Best, Jon

[BillSWPA]

http://larvatus.com/manurhin-mr73-2/

A bit of a long and detailed read, but p-f member Michael Zeleny provides a detailed account of the MR73 selection and operational use with GIGN, as wella s the GIGN use of both the MR73 and Glocks in conjunction.

Best, Jon

I did not realize that the MR-73 had such an advantage in durability over Colt or S&W. It definitely makes me want one, although the price of a new one definitely reflects the difference in quality.

[JonInWA]

I did not realize that the MR-73 had such an advantage in durability over Colt or S&W. It definitely makes me want one, although the price of a new one definitely reflects the difference in quality.

The advantage over Colt and S&W didn't come as a huge surprise-what was interesting is that they felt compelled to improve on the Ruger -Six, after a period of license-building and issuing them (I believe that the sequence went: Security/Service Six to license-built Security/Service Six to Manhurin F1 to Manhurin MR88 (and now Chapuis Manhurin MR88).

What's always had me somewhat scratching my head is that if these revolvers are essentially copys or clones of the -Six, and the evolution essentially resulted in improved steel barrels and cylinders, why Manhurin felt compelled to travel away from the Ruger removable trigger group to field/detail disassemble, instead going back to a removable sideplate. The removable sideplate concept makes sense with the MR73 because of the essential action components and their manufacturing process, but to me the Ruger removable trigger group en bloc seems inherently stronger.

I agree that the Manhurin steels seem superior and offer significant durability and longevity, but Ruger -Six guns aren't exactly noted for falling apart-especially with 158 gr .357 magnum cartridges (versus the higher pressure 125 gr ones).

Perhaps it was to avoid patent infringements, or to facilitate French/Manhurin manufacturing techniques/technology, or perhaps just because they were French-vive la differance and all that....

Perhaps Michael Zeleny or others more knowledgeable will chime in.

Best, Jon

[TGS]

As for Force Recon using the 1911, every single dude I've met from Force who then didn't later leave for MARSOC, task force or OGA was very much traditional Marine Corps mindset, and it was apparent that they had a culture of looking down on the more loose/less militaristic cultured units like MARSOC. TiroFijo, the 1911 was a big oogie cookie for Marines, plain and simple. The same reason firefighters in the northeast US still like to do internal operations wearing an antique leather hat instead of a modern, objectively more safe and more comfortable dome piece, and the same reason you can still see cops in some US locales wearing a six-shooter with spare ammo carried in individual loops.


http://soldiersystems.net/2015/10/06/bcm-gunfighter-history-travis-haley-an-exercise-in-compromise/

I would not argue that a lighter/higher capacity gun would make sense for a GP side arm but for someone with a direct action mission I can see the benefits of a 1911. I can get hits on multiple small moving targets at 25 yards with mine that I can not do with glocks.

No disrespect to Mr. Haley, but the pointiest of the pointy tip of the spear units with the highest levels of direct action/in-extremis hostage rescue missions, and the highest probability of using pistols for low probability shots, have all migrated away from the 1911.

[Bucky]

The advantage over Colt and S&W didn't come as a huge surprise-what was interesting is that they felt compelled to improve on the Ruger -Six, after a period of license-building and issuing them (I believe that the sequence went: Security/Service Six to license-built Security/Service Six to Manhurin F1 to Manhurin MR88 (and now Chapuis Manhurin MR88).

What's always had me somewhat scratching my head is that if these revolvers are essentially copys or clones of the -Six, and the evolution essentially resulted in improved steel barrels and cylinders, why Manhurin felt compelled to travel away from the Ruger removable trigger group to field/detail disassemble, instead going back to a removable sideplate. The removable sideplate concept makes sense with the MR73 because of the essential action components and their manufacturing process, but to me the Ruger removable trigger group en bloc seems inherently stronger.

I agree that the Manhurin steels seem superior and offer significant durability and longevity, but Ruger -Six guns aren't exactly noted for falling apart-especially with 158 gr .357 magnum cartridges (versus the higher pressure 125 gr ones).

Perhaps it was to avoid patent infringements, or to facilitate French/Manhurin manufacturing techniques/technology, or perhaps just because they were French-vive la differance and all that....

Perhaps Michael Zeleny or others more knowledgeable will chime in.

Best, Jon

bac1023 is also pretty knowledgeable on these as well.

[TOTS]

As for Force Recon using the 1911, every single dude I've met from Force who then didn't later leave for MARSOC, task force or OGA was very much traditional Marine Corps mindset, and it was apparent that they had a culture of looking down on the more loose/less militaristic cultured units like MARSOC. TiroFijo, the 1911 was a big oogie cookie for Marines, plain and simple.

I’ll agree with this. I’m a Marine and have worked with Recon, Rangers, SF, SEALs, PJs, DEA, NSW, EOD, Marsoc, OGA, and Delta. By far, the ones with the greatest “more high-speed than you” aloof attitudes were Recon. Post relevant information: half the Recon platoons had M9s whereas the MEF Recon guys mostly had M45s.

Virtually all the Marsoc dudes have no interest in the 1911s and run the Glocks both on and off duty. Which I am kinda fine with cause I just go from one to the next asking for their issued WC magazines!

[03RN]

As for Force Recon using the 1911, every single dude I've met from Force who then didn't later leave for MARSOC, task force or OGA was very much traditional Marine Corps mindset, and it was apparent that they had a culture of looking down on the more loose/less militaristic cultured units like MARSOC. TiroFijo, the 1911 was a big oogie cookie for Marines, plain and simple. The same reason firefighters in the northeast US still like to do internal operations wearing an antique leather hat instead of a modern, objectively more safe and more comfortable dome piece, and the same reason you can still see cops in some US locales wearing a six-shooter with spare ammo carried in individual loops.



No disrespect to Mr. Haley, but the pointiest of the pointy tip of the spear units with the highest levels of direct action/in-extremis hostage rescue missions, and the highest probability of using pistols for low probability shots, have all migrated away from the 1911.

Not disagreeing but let's ask why. Are the polymer striker guns more capable? Or are they cheaper to maintain?

Quite honestly the type of handgun used for .mil ops are kinda irelevant. The few times I pulled my M9 it could have been anything and I would have been fine.

I was never the tippiest point but if I did the things I did with a benelli or saw with a handgun I'd want a 1911.

[03RN]

I’ll agree with this. I’m a Marine and have worked with Recon, Rangers, SF, SEALs, PJs, DEA, NSW, EOD, Marsoc, OGA, and Delta. By far, the ones with the greatest “more high-speed than you” aloof attitudes were Recon. Post relevant information: half the Recon platoons had M9s whereas the MEF Recon guys mostly had M45s.

Virtually all the Marsoc dudes have no interest in the 1911s and run the Glocks both on and off duty. Which I am kinda fine with cause I just go from one to the next asking for their issued WC magazines!

Which Marines carry off duty? Sorry but I never saw it.

[bac1023]

The advantage over Colt and S&W didn't come as a huge surprise-what was interesting is that they felt compelled to improve on the Ruger -Six, after a period of license-building and issuing them (I believe that the sequence went: Security/Service Six to license-built Security/Service Six to Manhurin F1 to Manhurin MR88 (and now Chapuis Manhurin MR88).

What's always had me somewhat scratching my head is that if these revolvers are essentially copys or clones of the -Six, and the evolution essentially resulted in improved steel barrels and cylinders, why Manhurin felt compelled to travel away from the Ruger removable trigger group to field/detail disassemble, instead going back to a removable sideplate. The removable sideplate concept makes sense with the MR73 because of the essential action components and their manufacturing process, but to me the Ruger removable trigger group en bloc seems inherently stronger.

I agree that the Manhurin steels seem superior and offer significant durability and longevity, but Ruger -Six guns aren't exactly noted for falling apart-especially with 158 gr .357 magnum cartridges (versus the higher pressure 125 gr ones).

Perhaps it was to avoid patent infringements, or to facilitate French/Manhurin manufacturing techniques/technology, or perhaps just because they were French-vive la differance and all that....

Perhaps Michael Zeleny or others more knowledgeable will chime in.

Best, Jon
The MR73 is quite a bit different than the MR88 or any Ruger-based Manurhin revolver.

I’m not a huge DA Ruger fan and I never cared much for the F1 or MR88. I think the MR73 is one of the finest and most durable revolvers of all time. Night and day in comparison to a Ruger.

[TOTS]

Which Marines carry off duty? Sorry but I never saw it.

MARSOC. I’m mainly referring to the CCW stuff most of the guys I see down here choose for personal weapons. It’s an AR/ Glock instagram world.

[TGS]

Not disagreeing but let's ask why. Are the polymer striker guns more capable? Or are they cheaper to maintain?


What is "all of the above", Mr. Trebek.

[Trooper224]

Not disagreeing but let's ask why. Are the polymer striker guns more capable? Or are they cheaper to maintain?

Yes, on both counts.

Look, I love the 1911. It was the first handgun I ever shot, when my dad took me to the range with him at the age of five. Pop was the command Sgt. Major with the Marine security detachment at Barbers Point, Hawaii. He wasn't really a shooter, but I think the pistol team was an excuse to get out of the office and drink beer with his buddies (on the range with beer and guns, it was a different world). It was one of those "don't tell your mom" moments that left an impression. It was also the first gun I ever fired shots in anger with during my military service and one I used in LE work for twenty years. No one loves it better than I do. That being said, there's NOTHING a 1911 does better than a plastic fantastic, or a good DA/SA gun, or a host of others. For years, I clung to the, "I just shoot it better than anything else." mantra like a lot of people do. In retrospect, it didn't even make sense at the time. I was winning bullseye matches with a wheelgun and doing quite well on SWAT with a Sig P220 and later a Glock 21. The problem was, I was emotionally attached to Gods Gun, so I convinced myself it was the best option.

When arthritis forced me to seek other options I had to eat some internal crow and admit to myself that I was wrong. The 1911 is more maintenance intensive than more modern designs, just about every more modern design in fact. I say that as someone who's run them into the ground and had to rebuild them. I've done the same with DA/SA guns and plastic fantastics and the durability and maintenance intervals don't even compare. Here at the close of the second decade in the 21st century, I can't think of a single task I'd choose a 1911 for over other pistol types. The thing is a dinosaur best left to history and recreation.

[Robinson]

Here at the close of the second decade in the 21st century, I can't think of a single task I'd choose a 1911 for over other pistol types. The thing is a dinosaur best left to history and recreation.

With respect, not for everyone sir.

I've owned/shot/carried 1911s, DA autos, Glocks, M&Ps, revolvers, etc... I would rather carry my Lightweight Commander 9mm than any of them. That doesn't mean I think the 1911 is superior to other designs, or that the military should still be issuing them. My Lwt Cmdr carries nicely. It functions properly. I Know how to maintain it. It works for me.

My basic Government Model 45 on the other hand is just for fun and because I simply like it.

[HCM]

Not disagreeing but let's ask why. Are the polymer striker guns more capable? Or are they cheaper to maintain?

Quite honestly the type of handgun used for .mil ops are kinda irelevant. The few times I pulled my M9 it could have been anything and I would have been fine.

I was never the tippiest point but if I did the things I did with a benelli or saw with a handgun I'd want a 1911.

They aren’t just cheaper to maintain, they are simpler and easier to maintain. Especially if you do high volume training.

You keeping 2 or 3 personally owned 1911s running does not equal keeping a fleet of them running, especially when you have end users who just shoot guns but have no real interest in them.

My understanding is when USMC Recon ran the Meusoc Guns they had to have two guns per shooter. They would use one during training for a deployment or a float, turn those in for PMCS / rebuild and get newly wrenched guns for actual use and the next training up.

A federal LE unit that ran 1911s for years also had to maintain a significant stock of extra guns as all guns had to be shipped to their central armory for even minor repairs.

[rcbusmc24]

Most but not all of the base swat teams have been transitioned to M9A1s... CID will most likely get M18 Sigs first to replace their M007's along with Force and the recon schoolhouse at SOI W. They are the only remaining units using m45a1. Once they have their new sigs PMO and the GPF units will start getting theirs. Talking with Dyal at my buddies shop here in jville, there are still a few m45a1's on the compound for familiarization training but none are being used operationally. All of MARSOC's glocks came from Crane/SOCOM funding not USMC dollars. Soon the only USMC pistol will be the M18.... still not sure how I feel about that.

[JonInWA]

The MR73 is quite a bit different than the MR88 or any Ruger-based Manurhin revolver.

I’m not a huge DA Ruger fan and I never cared much for the F1 or MR88. I think the MR73 is one of the finest and most durable revolvers of all time. Night and day in comparison to a Ruger.

No one is contesting the inherent qualities of the MR73, or its position at the pinnacle of mass-production combat revolvers. It's realized that the Security/Service Six/F1/MR88 has an entirely different action system than the MR73, and that they are not the precision instrument that the MR73 is; nevertheless, I personally, and probably one or two others have found the -Six series to be a very credible and well-made revolver.

What is trying to be ascertained is the evolution, rationale and comparative qualities of the F1 and the subsequent evolution of the F1 and MR88 from the -Six series. Yes, they're probably a bit of a plebeian divergence compared to the MR73, but they're still of interest, at least to me. There are Ford Model T collectors, and Rolls-Royce Silver Ghost collectors; both are of interest to automotive users and aficionados (well, at least to certain sub-sets of them); similar situation here. If you can provide any pertinent insights, they'd be appreciated; Michael Zeleny's excellent article amply covered the MR73.

Certain auto-pistol fans would turn up their noses at discussing Glocks with bespoke (or semi-bespoke, or limited production) 1911s; here at pistol-forum, I'd like to think we're a bit beyond that sort of hang-up.

Best, Jon

[45dotACP]

I can't think of a single task I'd choose a 1911 for over other pistol types. The thing is a dinosaur best left to history and recreation.

Well yeah, but so is the snub nose revolver or the lever action rifle.

But there are some niche applications for a private citizen. Especially one living in the communis....erm...progressive areas of this country with magazine capacity restrictions. At that point, if I'm only getting ten rounds, I want a full size gun that can do less than a 2 inch group at 25 yards and has a light recoil impulse. That, to me, means a 9mm 1911, so that's what I carry.

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

[Trooper224]

Well yeah, but so is the snub nose revolver or the lever action rifle.

Neither one of which would be my first choice either, unless the only other options were a cap and ball revolver and a flintlock rifle.

Make your choices and take your chances. It's up to you and I personally have no vested interest in what someone chooses to carry. If I HAD to break out Gods Gun and carry it again I wouldn't lose much sleep over it. On the other hand, one shouldn't get ones panties in bunched up status when it's pointed out that their choice isn't an optimal one. There's a rather large difference in making a choice based on legal restrictions and one made on emotion and nostalgia. Using the former to make a point is a bit of a straw man argument when we're talking about mechanical capabilities.

[45dotACP]

Don't get me wrong, I have zero disagreement that the 1911 isn't the best platform available for military or police applications. And in truth you can just get ban state mags for whatever guns are out there and be just fine, so even in that instance, the 1911 does boil down to being an emotional choice.

But I wouldn't think anybody who carries a 1911 carries it because they think it's a logically better choice than a (insert wondernine blaster).




Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

[JonInWA]

I thoroughly enjoy and appreciate my 1911s and revolvers, and certainly wouldn't feel that they (and I with them) couldn't be utilized effectively defensively if necessary. But given the option of having and having available one of my Glocks, HKs, Beretta, et al, I think I'd likely be either better served, or have a tool with greater situational applicability and flexibility than with a 1911 or revolver.

I understand situational/organizational/legal constraints that can affect or significantly limit choices. I get that. But hypothetically, if I was restricted to, say, a Glock G19 with a 10 round magazine vs a 1911 or revolver, I'd still likely choose the G19-for how it ergonomically indexes with me, for it's carryability, for its ease in reloading, for its ease in carrying spare magazines, low maintenance, weather resistance, ease in maintenance, etc.

Today's literally a case in point. My wife gave me a Colt Series 70 for an anniversary, and we plan on spending the day together at a local open air 4th of July festival, with thousands of participants. One one hand, the Series 70 (which I've vetted and am competent with) would be a nice commemorative carry choice-both as a piece of Americana, my Army background, and our relationship. However, instead I'm choosing to carry my Glock G19, for the simple reason (among the other intrinsic ones that I've discussed) that if a situation arises where I need to pass a gun to my wife (or if she needs to take it over if I'm incapacitated) the G19 is far easier for her to index with and effectively use, and its lighter weight is a significant factor in her ease of use as well. Plus it's a pick up, aim and pull trigger if necessary; no other levers or controls need to be activated or deactivated for her to use it, which, for a non-dedicated user, can be important in an impromptu emergency use situation.

Trooper224's comments sums things up nicely, in my opinion.

Best, Jon

[Andy in NH]

My understanding is when USMC Recon ran the Meusoc Guns they had to have two guns per shooter. They would use one during training for a deployment or a float, turn those in for PMCS / rebuild and get newly wrenched guns for actual use and the next training up.

Force Recon would also deploy with a Small Arms Repairer/Technician (MOS 2111) as part of the platoon to keep those guns running.

[Bucky]

I understand situational/organizational/legal constraints that can affect or significantly limit choices. I get that. But hypothetically, if I was restricted to, say, a Glock G19 with a 10 round magazine vs a 1911 or revolver, I'd still likely choose the G19-for how it ergonomically indexes with me, for it's carryability, for its ease in reloading, for its ease in carrying spare magazines, low maintenance, weather resistance, ease in maintenance, etc.


I don’t think I’d go G19 if restricted to 10 rounds. Maybe things have improved, but my experience with neutered Glock mags haven’t been 100%. I know others on here have experienced the same. Not saying I’d go 1911 either.

[M2CattleCo]

I thoroughly enjoy and appreciate my 1911s and revolvers, and certainly wouldn't feel that they (and I with them) couldn't be utilized effectively defensively if necessary. But given the option of having and having available one of my Glocks, HKs, Beretta, et al, I think I'd likely be either better served, or have a tool with greater situational applicability and flexibility than with a 1911 or revolver.

I understand situational/organizational/legal constraints that can affect or significantly limit choices. I get that. But hypothetically, if I was restricted to, say, a Glock G19 with a 10 round magazine vs a 1911 or revolver, I'd still likely choose the G19-for how it ergonomically indexes with me, for it's carryability, for its ease in reloading, for its ease in carrying spare magazines, low maintenance, weather resistance, ease in maintenance, etc.

Today's literally a case in point. My wife gave me a Colt Series 70 for an anniversary, and we plan on spending the day together at a local open air 4th of July festival, with thousands of participants. One one hand, the Series 70 (which I've vetted and am competent with) would be a nice commemorative carry choice-both as a piece of Americana, my Army background, and our relationship. However, instead I'm choosing to carry my Glock G19, for the simple reason (among the other intrinsic ones that I've discussed) that if a situation arises where I need to pass a gun to my wife (or if she needs to take it over if I'm incapacitated) the G19 is far easier for her to index with and effectively use, and its lighter weight is a significant factor in her ease of use as well. Plus it's a pick up, aim and pull trigger if necessary; no other levers or controls need to be activated or deactivated for her to use it, which, for a non-dedicated user, can be important in an impromptu emergency use situation.

Trooper224's comments sums things up nicely, in my opinion.

Best, Jon

Glock 19s might be point and shoot guns, but that doesn't automatically translate into being a point and hit gun. Simple doesn't equal easy.

1911s have almost universally been the pistol that new shooters, especially women, shoot the best with the least amount of training. It's been my experience that mastering that super complex 1911 thumb safety is easier than dealing with the width and unforgiving trigger pull of a Glock.

The plastic guns are logical if you wanna carry a whole buncha ammo on the cheap, but there are still very legitimate reasons that make a 1911 a viable sidearm.

[Trooper224]

Glock 19s might be point and shoot guns, but that doesn't automatically translate into being a point and hit gun. Simple doesn't equal easy.

1911s have almost universally been the pistol that new shooters, especially women, shoot the best with the least amount of training. It's been my experience that mastering that super complex 1911 thumb safety is easier than dealing with the width and unforgiving trigger pull of a Glock.

The plastic guns are logical if you wanna carry a whole buncha ammo on the cheap, but there are still very legitimate reasons that make a 1911 a viable sidearm.

My lone 1911 in 9mm is my wife's favorite shooter. In fact, it isn't really my gun anymore, if you know what I mean.

[JAD]

But I wouldn't think anybody who carries a 1911 carries it because they think it's a logically better choice than a (insert wondernine blaster).


I shoot 1911s measurably better than other guns, with the exception of the G17 which I also carry when I can. How well I place my first nine rounds matters much, much more to me than most other factors. So for me at least, the 1911 is first a rational choice.

I think we can consider revolvers to be likely to be an emotional choice in many cases, but making that point about the 1911 versus “modern” service weapons reflects a preoccupation with inconsequential increments.

[Rc217]

My lone 1911 in 9mm is my wife's favorite shooter. In fact, it isn't really my gun anymore, if you know what I mean.

I have really been wanting to try a 9mm double stack 1911. The capacity is there, and I have heard the new STI line is really reliable but I have been wondering if they require the same maintenance intervals as a traditional single stack.

[Trooper224]

I have really been wanting to try a 9mm double stack 1911. The capacity is there, and I have heard the new STI line is really reliable but I have been wondering if they require the same maintenance intervals as a traditional single stack.

I resisted 1911s in 9mm for years because they were finicky and unreliable. That seems to have been overcome. Unfortunately, by the time that had been accomplished I was done with the 1911 as a carry gun. So while guns like the STIs look cool, I personally have no desire to drop that kind of money on a gun just for funzzies. A few weeks ago, a young Deputy US Marshal on the SOG unit was proudly showing me is STI with an RMR mounted. While he was sharing all of the stereotypical reasons why he chose a 1911 style pistol, I just bit my tung and enjoyed looking at a cool gun. Those things sure looked cool in John Wick 3 though.

[JonInWA]

I don’t think I’d go G19 if restricted to 10 rounds. Maybe things have improved, but my experience with neutered Glock mags haven’t been 100%. I know others on here have experienced the same. Not saying I’d go 1911 either.

That's a very fair point. While the point of my hypothesis was that I'd prefer a G19 even with a neutered magazine capacity, I'd forgotten about the checkered reputation of the OEM 10 round magazines; so I'd amend my thinking to that I'd probably still prefer a G19 with neutered capacity if, and only if the magazines were reliable. Thanks, Bucky.

Best, Jon

[JonInWA]

Glock 19s might be point and shoot guns, but that doesn't automatically translate into being a point and hit gun. Simple doesn't equal easy.

1911s have almost universally been the pistol that new shooters, especially women, shoot the best with the least amount of training. It's been my experience that mastering that super complex 1911 thumb safety is easier than dealing with the width and unforgiving trigger pull of a Glock.

The plastic guns are logical if you wanna carry a whole buncha ammo on the cheap, but there are still very legitimate reasons that make a 1911 a viable sidearm.

I certainly don't deny that there are viable legitimate reasons and niches for 1911s, but I think you're missing the thrust of my thoughts. It's not that the controls on a 1911 are particularly difficult to master, but they do take some familiarization and experience with; my example was that if I needed to provide a gun to a non-dedicated shooter, that a Glock (or similar) firearm would likely be easier for them to situationally use.

I've heard from some very qualified instructors that a contemporary pistol that female students prefer is the HK VP9, not only due to it's inherent quality and accuracy, but also do to the charging handles on the slide that make it easier to manipulate the slide reciprocation when necessary, something that many with reduced upper body strength find challenging on an auto pistol.

Best, Jon

[Rc217]

I resisted 1911s in 9mm for years because they were finicky and unreliable. That seems to have been overcome. Unfortunately, by the time that had been accomplished I was done with the 1911 as a carry gun. So while guns like the STIs look cool, I personally have no desire to drop that kind of money on a gun just for funzzies. A few weeks ago, a young Deputy US Marshal on the SOG unit was proudly showing me is STI with an RMR mounted. While he was sharing all of the stereotypical reasons why he chose a 1911 style pistol, I just bit my tung and enjoyed looking at a cool gun. Those things sure looked cool in John Wick 3 though.

Like the earlier post regarding recon units bringing armorers and having to have two guns per shooter, I wonder if all of that is necessary for a 2011 style gun to continue to run through higher round counts. I feel like the extra level of maintenenace and needed end user dedication to the gun is mainly what killed the M45A1, not lack of capacity or weight. The STI apparently can compete with others on capacity and reliability, but does the end user need to be able to be their own armorer?

[Bobert1035]

Like the earlier post regarding recon units bringing armorers and having to have two guns per shooter, I wonder if all of that is necessary for a 2011 style gun to continue to run through higher round counts. I feel like the extra level of maintenenace and needed end user dedication to the gun is mainly what killed the M45A1, not lack of capacity or weight. The STI apparently can compete with others on capacity and reliability, but does the end user need to be able to be their own armorer?

Anecdotal suggestions heard in a quite a few P&S Podcasts claim that Roland's unit (whatever that was) had STIs in 40 and an armorer deployed with them to keep them running. I have no direct knowledge, just what I gathered from the discussions; hopefully someone with closer ties could chime in.

[M2CattleCo]

Like the earlier post regarding recon units bringing armorers and having to have two guns per shooter, I wonder if all of that is necessary for a 2011 style gun to continue to run through higher round counts. I feel like the extra level of maintenenace and needed end user dedication to the gun is mainly what killed the M45A1, not lack of capacity or weight. The STI apparently can compete with others on capacity and reliability, but does the end user need to be able to be their own armorer?

The same things on a 1911 that require an armorer exist on a 2011 with the addition of magazines that are generally not as good as single stack mags.

Don't forget that they bring spares and armorers for all of the other weapons too.

[TC215]

Anecdotal suggestions heard in a quite a few P&S Podcasts claim that Roland's unit (whatever that was) had STIs in 40 and an armorer deployed with them to keep them running. I have no direct knowledge, just what I gathered from the discussions; hopefully someone with closer ties could chime in.

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014/12/08/actual-special-forces-pistols-auction/

[UniSol]

As for Force Recon using the 1911, every single dude I've met from Force who then didn't later leave for MARSOC, task force or OGA was very much traditional Marine Corps mindset, and it was apparent that they had a culture of looking down on the more loose/less militaristic cultured units like MARSOC. TiroFijo, the 1911 was a big oogie cookie for Marines, plain and simple. The same reason firefighters in the northeast US still like to do internal operations wearing an antique leather hat instead of a modern, objectively more safe and more comfortable dome piece, and the same reason you can still see cops in some US locales wearing a six-shooter with spare ammo carried in individual loops.



No disrespect to Mr. Haley, but the pointiest of the pointy tip of the spear units with the highest levels of direct action/in-extremis hostage rescue missions, and the highest probability of using pistols for low probability shots, have all migrated away from the 1911.

I was gonna disagree with you here, but I left the USMC/Force for Army SF (not a long tabber), so...............I can think of many, many former Recon bubbas I have run into on the SF side, a couple that are SEALs, and others that moved on to MARSOC. I would say, from memory, it was at least 50/50 guys who embraced and really pushed the SOF culture and then the old guard who were more traditional Marine Corps mindset. I showed up to what was 5th Force Recon BN at the time from BRC with a high and tight and a pair of regular green silky USMC PT shorts, and that was thrashed out of me quickly. By the time I left I was dual-cool, long nasty hair, and gunny roll sleeves.

No arguments on the 1911 one way or the other. There was a time when you could have still argued for the 1911 being around for the IHR niche, but time marches on. And let's not forget that the M45A1 didn't just show up as the first 1911 since the olden-days. The MEUSOC 1911 has been around the whole time.

[Jeep]

[QUOTE=UniSol;900338]I. By the time I left I was dual-cool, long nasty hair . . . /QUOTE]

So this thread has me thinking about a few, only very loosely related, thing things:

1) How long will it take before beards and long nasty hair give way to high and tight haircuts among the cool guys the next time we fight in a place covered with jungles and monsoon rains? My experience living in the deep swamps of Eglin AFB has me wondering the benefits of long, nasty hair in those kinds of environments.

2) Glock 19s do pretty well in the rain. 1911's tend to rust unless they are freshly parked.

3) For those living in Communist-controlled states, Magpul 10-round Glock 19 mags do pretty well in my experience.

4) But if you are going to carry a 10-round pistol and aren't in the jungle (or in the swamps at Eglin) and want some old-style cool, a 1911 in .38 Super isn't a bad choice (though your ammunition cost will go up and it is a bit heavy to carry).

5) And most importantly, how do we get more MR-73's imported into the US?

[UniSol]

[QUOTE=UniSol;900338]I. By the time I left I was dual-cool, long nasty hair . . . /QUOTE]

So this thread has me thinking about a few, only very loosely related, thing things:

1) How long will it take before beards and long nasty hair give way to high and tight haircuts among the cool guys the next time we fight in a place covered with jungles and monsoon rains? My experience living in the deep swamps of Eglin AFB has me wondering the benefits of long, nasty hair in those kinds of environments.

2) Glock 19s do pretty well in the rain. 1911's tend to rust unless they are freshly parked.

3) For those living in Communist-controlled states, Magpul 10-round Glock 19 mags do pretty well in my experience.

4) But if you are going to carry a 10-round pistol and aren't in the jungle (or in the swamps at Eglin) and want some old-style cool, a 1911 in .38 Super isn't a bad choice (though your ammunition cost will go up and it is a bit heavy to carry).

5) And most importantly, how do we get more MR-73's imported into the US?

I spent a fair amount of time in the Philippines, Indonesia, Thailand, etc. And Okinawa. I would definitely rather have a beard just for mosquito interference. And long hair is always better than a high and tight. I never really did any VBSS work, but I don't remember the platoons that did ever complaining about the 1911s in an amphib environment....but, different times, different expectations.

And yeah, Eglin swamps are NASTY. I remember spending the whole night doing "land nav" without ever touching ground. I think it had rained for a week prior.

[Gary1911A1]

Anecdotal suggestions heard in a quite a few P&S Podcasts claim that Roland's unit (whatever that was) had STIs in 40 and an armorer deployed with them to keep them running. I have no direct knowledge, just what I gathered from the discussions; hopefully someone with closer ties could chime in.

Larry Vickers talked about that in a 1911 Build Class I took from him. As I recall he said someone in Delta was a competition shooter and convinced someone to adopt that pistol, but it didn't work out as well as their prior 1911s'.

[JAH 3rd]

I have a Gen 1 & 2 M&P full-size pistol in 45acp. Both have been 100% reliable. I realize these pistols were designed with a 10 round magazine from the start. When looking forward, who knows what legislation is coming down the road when it comes to magazine capacity. The 10 round limit was just some figure pulled out of the air. I am not aware of any science around that number......just politicians appearing to be doing something. Feel good legislation. So with an eye towards an even more restrictive magazine capacity, a 1911 with a 7 or 8 round magazine comes to mind. Something small like a S&W Shield or something along that line would be good. Throw in a revolver or two with appropriate speedloaders.

[Jeep]

[QUOTE=Jeep;900441]

And long hair is always better than a high and tight. I never really did any VBSS work, but I don't remember the platoons that did ever complaining about the 1911s in an amphib environment....but, different times, different expectations.

And yeah, Eglin swamps are NASTY. I remember spending the whole night doing "land nav" without ever touching ground. I think it had rained for a week prior.

A lot depends on your headgear. If you are wearing a helmet most of the time in jungle-like conditions, you can find lovely things like leeches and insects in that hair. (Did I mention that I hated leeches?). I had a platoon sergeant who had been a squad leader in the 4th ID during the fighting around Dak To in the Central Highlands in Vietnam. He was a black guy who always kept his hair short and told a hilarious story about one of his black troops who grew an Afro when those were the (non-regulation) fashion. The kid always kept his helmet on to hide the Afro. One day he took the helmet off because something was hurting and his fellow soldier found what amounted to a spider nest in his hair. The Afro suddenly went out of fashion in that company.

[Jeep]

I have a Gen 1 & 2 M&P full-size pistol in 45acp. Both have been 100% reliable. I realize these pistols were designed with a 10 round magazine from the start. When looking forward, who knows what legislation is coming down the road when it comes to magazine capacity. The 10 round limit was just some figure pulled out of the air. I am not aware of any science around that number......just politicians appearing to be doing something. Feel good legislation. So with an eye towards an even more restrictive magazine capacity, a 1911 with a 7 or 8 round magazine comes to mind. Something small like a S&W Shield or something along that line would be good. Throw in a revolver or two with appropriate speedloaders.

Governor Cuomo in NY passed a bill limiting pistols to 7 rounds; on finding that most had no 7 round magazines made for them, the bill was amended (or maybe it was just administrative guidance) saying you could own 10-round magazines but had to download them to 7 rounds. The federal judge hearing to case was very pro-gun control, but even he said that downloading to 7 was too stupid for words, and so threw out that requirement.

I think the 10-round limit comes from Josh Sugarman of the old Violence Policy Center. He is the one who pushed the left to be anti-'assault rifle" and I think he came up with the 10 round limit because there weren't many 10 round mags back then and the mag limit was intended as a back-door ban of the weapon. But whatever, it is now lefty dogma--they are in favor of banning mags with more than 10 rounds because everyone they know agrees with that.

[TGS]

I don’t think I’d go G19 if restricted to 10 rounds. Maybe things have improved, but my experience with neutered Glock mags haven’t been 100%. I know others on here have experienced the same. Not saying I’d go 1911 either.

That only applies to Glock single stack 10 round mags.

If you block a regular capacity double stack mag to 10 rounds it works fine.

/Red herring.

[45dotACP]

That only applies to Glock single stack 10 round mags.

If you block a regular capacity double stack mag to 10 rounds it works fine.

/Red herring.I wasn't aware there were blocked mags available for Glocks.

Then again, there are 9mm Glocks with a standard capacity of ten rounds now so if Glock blows your skirt up and you live with stupid mag limits you will likely be fine as long as you don't have a dumb roster to deal with.

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

[JSGlock34]

Just to note, the reason that the Marines bought Springfield Professionals, Kimber ICQBs, and Springfield Custom Carry pistols at various times was that PWS armorers couldn't produce enough M45 MEUSOC rebuilds as MARSOC stood up. The M45A1 was intended to reduce the armorer burden (with drop-in parts).

At a certain point, you have to consider whether the (debatable) merits of issuing a 1911 are worth the cost in man-hours. In my opinion, sidearms should demand a level of maintenance commensurate with their role on the battlefield.

In any case, here are two videos that show Force Reconnaissance and MARSOC training with their respective sidearms.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4QXUmWC1jc


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6-nuuRhOz0

[45dotACP]

Off topic, but were those guys in the MARSOC vid shooting at Rogers Shooting School?

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

[Dave Williams]

Off topic, but were those guys in the MARSOC vid shooting at Rogers Shooting School?

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

Not Rogers Shooting School, but a Rogers Range somewhere.

[HCM]

Just to note, the reason that the Marines bought Springfield Professionals, Kimber ICQBs, and Springfield Custom Carry pistols at various times was that PWS armorers couldn't produce enough M45 MEUSOC rebuilds as MARSOC stood up. The M45A1 was intended to reduce the armorer burden (with drop-in parts).

At a certain point, you have to consider whether the (debatable) merits of issuing a 1911 are worth the cost in man-hours. In my opinion, sidearms should demand a level of maintenance commensurate with their role on the battlefield.

In any case, here are two videos that show Force Reconnaissance and MARSOC training with their respective sidearms.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4QXUmWC1jc


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6-nuuRhOz0

In case anyone gets the wrong impression from the cool videos:

Make-A-Wish kid spends day as a Marine standing in line at the armory

https://www.duffelblog.com/2019/05/make-a-wish-kid-spends-day-as-a-marine-standing-in-line-at-the-armory/


TWENTYNINE PALMS, California — When eight year-old Conrad Greeley found out his leukemia was terminal, his family immediately contacted the Make-A-Wish foundation since he always wanted to spend a day living out his childhood dream of joining the Marine Corps.

Luckily, Make-A-Wish came through, and on Tuesday, Conrad met up with 2nd Battalion, 7th Marine Regiment’s Easy Company at 0400 outside the armory. The company was drawing weapons to verify serial numbers for the third time that week.


I tried to teach him how to spin up a CASEVAC 9-line but he couldn’t figure it out,” Casey said. “At least his hair is in regs.”

At 0630, the armory gates opened and Marines flooded in. As the smallest and newest boot, Conrad dutifully assumed his place at the back of the line. At 1100, just as he was getting close to the window, the armorers cut for chow.

When they came back at 1300, Conrad was informed they couldn’t issue him a rifle because Gunny hadn’t signed his weapons cards. After standing by aimlessly until 1700 for his team leader to tell him what to do, it was time for Conrad to head home.

[03RN]

[QUOTE=Jeep;900441]

I spent a fair amount of time in the Philippines, Indonesia, Thailand, etc. And Okinawa. I would definitely rather have a beard just for mosquito interference. And long hair is always better than a high and tight. I never really did any VBSS work, but I don't remember the platoons that did ever complaining about the 1911s in an amphib environment....but, different times, different expectations.

And yeah, Eglin swamps are NASTY. I remember spending the whole night doing "land nav" without ever touching ground. I think it had rained for a week prior.

IDK, as a current beard wearer and someone whose been through JWTC, spent a month training in the Philippines, and helped relief work in Indonesia after the tsunami with no beard I think I'd rather have less hair just to keep cooler and keep an eye out for crawlies.

Back when I was fishing I'd shave every summer just for that reason.

[Jeep]

In my opinion, sidearms should demand a level of maintenance commensurate with their role on the battlefield.



And that is probably the best point made on this thread. In the end, it is only a hand gun. Pistols are great to practice with because of relatively costs and because the skills carry through elsewhere. But carrying a pistol that needs constant armorer support is generally not going to be a good resource trade off.

[SeriousStudent]

In case anyone gets the wrong impression from the cool videos:

Make-A-Wish kid spends day as a Marine standing in line at the armory

https://www.duffelblog.com/2019/05/make-a-wish-kid-spends-day-as-a-marine-standing-in-line-at-the-armory/

That is brilliant. Or as they call it at the Stumps: "Wednesday."

[M2CattleCo]

And that is probably the best point made on this thread. In the end, it is only a hand gun. Pistols are great to practice with because of relatively costs and because the skills carry through elsewhere. But carrying a pistol that needs constant armorer support is generally not going to be a good resource trade off.


I don't think people realize that there are armorers for every weapons system from the handgun and carbine all the way to the heaviest artillery and even guns that the US doesn't issue, but allies use that we train. There's Glock armorers out there too.

They all need armorer support, some just need better armorers.

[Andy in NH]

I don't think people realize that there are armorers for every weapons system from the handgun and carbine all the way to the heaviest artillery and even guns that the US doesn't issue, but allies use that we train. There's Glock armorers out there too.

They all need armorer support, some just need better armorers.

A Marine Corps Infantry Battalion rates four school trained "small arms repair technicians" (MOS 2111); one SSgt., one Sgt. and two LCpls. These Marines service fourteen different weapons systems (small arms, machine guns, mortars, TOW, etc.) totaling over one thousand individual items.

A single platoon (Force Recon or not) deploying with even one 2111 to service the weapons, I think speaks more to the condition of the weapons (the MEU(SOC) pistol) rather than the armorers themselves.

[Jeep]

I don't think people realize that there are armorers for every weapons system from the handgun and carbine all the way to the heaviest artillery and even guns that the US doesn't issue, but allies use that we train. There's Glock armorers out there too.

They all need armorer support, some just need better armorers.

I'd rather have the small arms armorers spend their time on the .50's etc. rather than on rifles and on the rifles rather than the pistols. It would be nice if the pistols were robust enough that all the armorers needed to do for the vast majority of the pistols was to change the recoil springs. (And based upon my experience with Army armorers, the ones who paid attention to things like recoil springs were rare gems.)

[JSGlock34]

From DET ONE: U.S. MARINE CORPS U.S. SPECIAL OPERATIONS COMMAND DETACHMENT, 2003-2006 (https://www.marines.mil/Portals/1/Publications/DET%20ONE%20U.S.%20Marine%20Corps_U.S.%20Special%2 0Operations%20Command%20Detachment,%202003-2006%20%20PCN%2010600001300_1.pdf) by Lieutenant Colonel John P. Piedmont, U.S. Marine Corps Reserve
History Division, United States Marine Corps...(pp. 26-27)

Arming the Detachment

One of the main logistics concerns was arming the detachment with the array of specialized weapons that its mission would require. The Det One armorer was Gunnery Sergeant Mark S. Kitashima, a Colorado native who enlisted in 1988. Most notable among the assignments of his career was a tour at Quantico, Virginia, as a match armorer, working on the “MEU (SOC) .45,” the finely tuned .45-caliber M1911 pistol used by the direct action platoons of the maritime special purpose forces. His knowledge of weapons and weapons procurement would be invaluable in arming the detachment...

For an individual back-up weapon, the detachment wanted the best .45-caliber pistol available...The first answer was the MEU (SOC) .45—powerful, accurate, available in the Marine Corps supply chain, and intimately familiar to the force reconnaissance veterans in the detachment. Gunnery Sergeant Kitashima, however, knew by virtue of his Quantico tour that the MEU (SOC) pistol was not the answer to the detachment’s needs.

The MEU (SOC) .45s all came from ordnance stocks in storage sites across the country, containing millions of pistols produced during and after World War II. The best of these were selected by the Marine Corps and sent to Weapons Training Battalion at Quantico, where the match armorers at the precision weapons section then rebuilt them by hand with premium parts, mating the power of the .45 cartridge with the reliability and accuracy of match-grade arms. However, the section could only turn out 60 pistols a year. The problem with the MEU (SOC) .45 was its sustainability, not its accuracy. Each one needed to be repaired by a match armorer if it broke down. (Kitashima was a match armorer, but if Det One sub-elements were operating away from the support sections, this could be a problem.) Also, each MEU (SOC) .45 had a life span of only 10,000 rounds, which in practice worked out to two complete cycles of MEU (SOC) training and deployment. After that, it had to go back to Quantico for overhaul. Det One Marines would fire more than 10,000 rounds in training alone. Given those realities, Kitashima judged the MEU (SOC) pistol to be inadequate for the detachment’s needs.

Seems to me that the solution sets available are 1) Recruit, train, and retain more PWS armorers to build 1911 pistols to satisfy unit requirements (likely at the expense of other manpower requirements) or 2) Pick a less maintenance intensive sidearm. The USMC tried to keep the 1911 on life support by 3) Purchase and issue COTS 1911 pistols/select a less maintenance intensive 1911 pistol (the M45A1), but these solutions did not prove sustainable.

[03RN]

From DET ONE: U.S. MARINE CORPS U.S. SPECIAL OPERATIONS COMMAND DETACHMENT, 2003-2006 (https://www.marines.mil/Portals/1/Publications/DET%20ONE%20U.S.%20Marine%20Corps_U.S.%20Special%2 0Operations%20Command%20Detachment,%202003-2006%20%20PCN%2010600001300_1.pdf) by Lieutenant Colonel John P. Piedmont, U.S. Marine Corps Reserve
History Division, United States Marine Corps...(pp. 26-27)

Arming the Detachment

One of the main logistics concerns was arming the detachment with the array of specialized weapons that its mission would require. The Det One armorer was Gunnery Sergeant Mark S. Kitashima, a Colorado native who enlisted in 1988. Most notable among the assignments of his career was a tour at Quantico, Virginia, as a match armorer, working on the “MEU (SOC) .45,” the finely tuned .45-caliber M1911 pistol used by the direct action platoons of the maritime special purpose forces. His knowledge of weapons and weapons procurement would be invaluable in arming the detachment...

For an individual back-up weapon, the detachment wanted the best .45-caliber pistol available...The first answer was the MEU (SOC) .45—powerful, accurate, available in the Marine Corps supply chain, and intimately familiar to the force reconnaissance veterans in the detachment. Gunnery Sergeant Kitashima, however, knew by virtue of his Quantico tour that the MEU (SOC) pistol was not the answer to the detachment’s needs.

The MEU (SOC) .45s all came from ordnance stocks in storage sites across the country, containing millions of pistols produced during and after World War II. The best of these were selected by the Marine Corps and sent to Weapons Training Battalion at Quantico, where the match armorers at the precision weapons section then rebuilt them by hand with premium parts, mating the power of the .45 cartridge with the reliability and accuracy of match-grade arms. However, the section could only turn out 60 pistols a year. The problem with the MEU (SOC) .45 was its sustainability, not its accuracy. Each one needed to be repaired by a match armorer if it broke down. (Kitashima was a match armorer, but if Det One sub-elements were operating away from the support sections, this could be a problem.) Also, each MEU (SOC) .45 had a life span of only 10,000 rounds, which in practice worked out to two complete cycles of MEU (SOC) training and deployment. After that, it had to go back to Quantico for overhaul. Det One Marines would fire more than 10,000 rounds in training alone. Given those realities, Kitashima judged the MEU (SOC) pistol to be inadequate for the detachment’s needs.

Seems to me that the solution sets available are 1) Recruit, train, and retain more PWS armorers to build 1911 pistols to satisfy unit requirements (likely at the expense of other manpower requirements) or 2) Pick a less maintenance intensive sidearm. The USMC tried to keep the 1911 on life support by 3) Purchase and issue COTS 1911 pistols/select a less maintenance intensive 1911 pistol (the M45A1), but these solutions did not prove sustainable.

I'm just a dumb Lance Corporal but how does a weapon have a life span of 10k rounds, but then gets overhauled and continues on?

If it is shot after the overhaul then it's not the lifespan. And quite honestly the only things needed after 10k RDS are a new recoil and firing pin spring, same as a Glock.

1911s do need a little more knowledge to keep going past 60k RDS than a glock but for fucks sake we are still using M-2s and SAWs that need significantly more tlc to keep effective.

[john c]

I'm just a dumb Lance Corporal but how does a weapon have a life span of 10k rounds, but then gets overhauled and continues on?

If it is shot after the overhaul then it's not the lifespan. And quite honestly the only things needed after 10k RDS are a new recoil and firing pin spring, same as a Glock.

1911s do need a little more knowledge to keep going past 60k RDS than a glock but for fucks sake we are still using M-2s and SAWs that need significantly more tlc to keep effective.

You drive your truck 250k miles, and the engine and transmission are shot. The truck is used up; it's now worth $500. You drop $7500 for an engine and transmission rebuild, and drive it another 100k miles. I would say the lifespan of your truck is 250k miles. The fact that you rebuilt it added new life to the truck.

For match built pistols, the key issues is that they shoot loose, and lose their accuracy. The slides need to be refitted to the frame, the barrels need to be re-fit (typically a new bushing, link, and peening or welding up and filing the locking lugs), plus a new trigger job. This is as much work or more than originally match-tuning the gun. It would cost you $1000-1500 for a regular 1911 smith to do this outside. Considering the overhead of the USMC, it's much more.

This does not include the normal maintenance work of hand fitting replacement slide stops that break in use, or tuning individual magazines for each gun.

[TGS]

I'm just a dumb Lance Corporal but how does a weapon have a life span of 10k rounds, but then gets overhauled and continues on?

If it is shot after the overhaul then it's not the lifespan. And quite honestly the only things needed after 10k RDS are a new recoil and firing pin spring, same as a Glock.

1911s do need a little more knowledge to keep going past 60k RDS than a glock but for fucks sake we are still using M-2s and SAWs that need significantly more tlc to keep effective.

1) I think you're being obtuse about the word "life span". You get what he means, get over it.

2) According to this article by Pat Rogers, the rebuild is more extensive than what you're stating.
During the course of a workup/ deployment, the operator will put a lot of rounds through his pistol. It is not uncommon for the pistols to come back with 80,000+ rounds fired. The pistol will be returned to the PWS at Quantico for a rebuild. Generally, all parts save the frame (which is a U.S. Government frame last manufactured in 1945) are discarded. The frame is inspected, and if within specs, rebuilt again. There are some frames that may have had as many as 500,000 rounds fired from them.

http://www.forcerecon.com/strongmenarmed3.htm

[03RN]

1) I think you're being obtuse about the word "life span". You get what he means, get over it.

2) According to this article by Pat Rogers, the rebuild is more extensive than what you're stating.

http://www.forcerecon.com/strongmenarmed3.htm

I'm not being intentionally obtuse. The author I quoted said the lifespan was 10k rounds. Then you go ahead a post an article that supports what I said. Of course the rebuild PR describes is more extensive because it's 8x the number.

[JSGlock34]

We've talked about "armorer" support for the 1911 throughout this thread, but note the Precision Weapons Section was practically assembling and fitting new pistols from parts, as well as repairing deadlined pistols. When a MEUSOC 1911 went down hard, it wasn't like they issued a new pistol. They had to build the replacement. When that wasn't possible, they purchased COTS pistols (the Kimber ICQB got the magazine covers, but more Springfield Professionals and other Springfield Custom Shop products were procured).

These 1911s lived hard lives. Here's a Springfield Professional that clearly went back to PWS, but did not undergo a complete rebuild. It actually retains most of the original major components, including the slide, frame (note the CRG Serial number identifying it as a Professional), and Nowlin barrel. The magwell has been removed and the slide cut to add forward cocking serrations.

39844

Later, instead of butchering Pros into the desired configuration, the USMC purchased Springfield Custom shop pistols built to their specifications (very similar to the Pro but lacking the magwell and front strap serrations, while adding a lanyard loop and front cocking serrations - note the USMC serial number).

https://bingbangboomkaboom.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/usmc1911meusoc.jpg

I think these are really cool pistols and neat bits of history. But keeping the USMC equipped with semi-custom 1911s was expensive in terms of dollars and manpower.

[JSGlock34]

M45A1s still in action.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R07k9od-AOw

[rcbusmc24]

Well.... The Sig M18s have started to arrive at both the Recon units and the EOTG armories. Going forward the Special Tactics Branches are planning on running with whatever variant pistol shows up with a team as the transition is conducted. Force Platoons going out this year still have M45A1. Next year will probably be a mix. 2022 will likely be all Sig....

Honestly the biggest problem is the ammo allocation. A CQB class and certification consumes 500 k pistol. We have a allocation of 3.5 mil .45 ACP just for 2nd EOTG, our current 9mm allocation is nowhere near that and they are trying to figure out where to get the extra 9mm from going forward... 2020 shenanigans are not helping things much either...

[HCM]

M45A1s still in action.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R07k9od-AOw

Question for @RBCUSMC24

In the video (and others I've seen) some Marines are using M4s with standard 7' rails and some have longer rails which appear to be FSB cutout rails. Are the cutout rails actual DD SOCOM cut out rails or are they just standard M4s with an add on extension like the Ergo quad rail extension ?

https://www.ergogrips.net/shop/ergo-m4-4-rail/

[rcbusmc24]

Ergo extensions. Some installed by the armorer's, others personally bought. Shops here still carry them for the guys who want them....65530

[Borderland]

That's a good writeup on that pistol. I remember watching that auction thinking I should grab one of those. Lots of people hyperventilated over those over on the 1911 forum when it was happening. People who bought those got all kinds of abused crap but they were happy to have one. Some dealers bought as many as they could. I remember one guy say he bought 10. IIRC the original offering was around $1350 and they sold out faster than they could process the orders. I watched them go to around 2K before I lost interest.

[Tango]

Great to see the 1911 carrying on. On another part of the net, a story, with pics to back it up, was shared showing actual MEUSOC 1911s in the wild with the USMC. All within the last 24 months....that was pretty cool to see.

The M17 & M18 move closer but I'll be interested to see what continues to ride in the holsters of guys around the world.

[Borderland]

Great to see the 1911 carrying on. On another part of the net, a story, with pics to back it up, was shared showing actual MEUSOC 1911s in the wild with the USMC. All within the last 24 months....that was pretty cool to see.

The M17 & M18 move closer but I'll be interested to see what continues to ride in the holsters of guys around the world.

The cost to manufacture 1911's will be it's doom in a military application. I think I read someplace that those MEUSOC 1911's cost the military around 1K each. A Glock would cost the military half that much and a Sig less than that.

[ranger]

The cost to manufacture 1911's will be it's doom in a military application. I think I read someplace that those MEUSOC 1911's cost the military around 1K each. A Glock would cost the military half that much and a Sig less than that.

Special Operators are Special and we can afford to buy them the best equipment. You can buy a lot of tuned 1911s for cost of one precision munition. Special Operations 1911 would be "budget dust". Not saying that 1911s are the best solution just saying that cost would not be the real overriding issue (might be the excuse though)

[Borderland]

Special Operators are Special and we can afford to buy them the best equipment. You can buy a lot of tuned 1911s for cost of one precision munition. Special Operations 1911 would be "budget dust". Not saying that 1911s are the best solution just saying that cost would not be the real overriding issue (might be the excuse though)

Yeah, not your regular troop is it? I understand the point-of-the-spear analogy.

I was reading that a large number of SO actually preferred Glocks. That doesn't surprise me because of weight and capacity.

I'm always surprised by military priority with congress appropriations. Having been in the military and seeing some of the hardware they buy, a pistol is a wood pencil in the general scheme of things.

I'm all on board with buying whatever you need to shoot the Mujahideen.

[Tango]

The cost to manufacture 1911's will be it's doom in a military application. I think I read someplace that those MEUSOC 1911's cost the military around 1K each. A Glock would cost the military half that much and a Sig less than that.

The 1911 will not be issued in masses ala WWII due to the cost. It remains and will remain in the holsters of specialized military units because at that level, cost is not as relevant. A 12 man team deploying to XYZ has plenty of leeway in preparing for that deployment. If they feel an order for 1911s from a specified manufacturer is required, then it gets done. Yes, money matters but at that amount, it isn't going to move the needle on ounce.

[JSGlock34]

Yes and no.

SOCOM procures and issues the Glock 19 (type classified as the Mk26). Almost all affiliated units (USASOC, MARSOC, NSW, AFSOC) have transitioned to this sidearm.

SOCOM procures gear when it fulfills a requirement or capability that the base service equipment (in this case the M9) does not. Will SOCOM continue to procure the Glock when the SIG M17/18 will be available from the force provider at no added cost? Perhaps. SOF budgets have swelled over the past two decades but will spending extra for a Glock when SIGs are readily available make sense if the defense budget declines? We will see. The most recent appropriation already reduced SOCOM’s procurement budget.

The remaining 1911s in service with the USMC are predominantly in Force Reconnaissance units, and some Military Police SRTs. There are not SOCOM organizations and do not have access to the Glock via MFP-11 funds. MARSOC already turned in their 1911s. Whether Force Reconnaissance does so when the M18 becomes readily available remains to be seen.

Still 110 years in military service? Long live the 1911!

[Tango]

Yeah, not your regular troop is it? I understand the point-of-the-spear analogy.

I was reading that a large number of SO actually preferred Glocks. That doesn't surprise me because of weight and capacity.

I'm always surprised by military priority with congress appropriations. Having been in the military and seeing some of the hardware they buy, a pistol is a wood pencil in the general scheme of things.

I'm all on board with buying whatever you need to shoot the Mujahideen.

Indeed, what is needed to shoot the Mujahideen gets ordered.

Plenty of guys like the Glock, plenty of guys like the 1911. We haven't even discussed Sig or HK!!! Overall, in some areas, it is, "players choice".

[Tango]

Yes and no.

SOCOM procures and issues the Glock 19 (type classified as the Mk26). Almost all affiliated units (USASOC, MARSOC, NSW, AFSOC) have transitioned to this sidearm.

SOCOM procures gear when it fulfills a requirement or capability that the base service equipment (in this case the M9) does not. Will SOCOM continue to procure the Glock when the SIG M17/18 will be available from the force provider at no added cost? Perhaps. SOF budgets have swelled over the past two decades but will spending extra for a Glock when SIGs are readily available make sense if the defense budget declines? We will see. The most recent appropriation already reduced SOCOM’s procurement budget.

The remaining 1911s in service with the USMC are predominantly in Force Reconnaissance units, and some Military Police SRTs. There are not SOCOM organizations and do not have access to the Glock via MFP-11 funds. MARSOC already turned in their 1911s. Whether Force Reconnaissance does so when the M18 becomes readily available remains to be seen.

Still 110 years in military service? Long live the 1911!

Very well written and good information on the funding stream. A few of us discussed the M17/M18 and its effects on the armory and procurement a while back.

For quite some time, the procurement argument for a Glock, over a M9 or M1911 has been hinged in certain ways on.. Striker Fired, Polymer, High Capacity, 9MM. That tact for the buying of Glocks has worked, up until now. The M17/M18 does everything the Glock does, just as well, in the same, "polymer, striker fired, high capcity" sense. Therefore, to a certain degree, over time, the Glock becomes superfluous. As they wear out, or need replacement, the M17/M18 will be readily available and almost everyone in the unit will have cut their teeth on the Sigs. In a way, the Glock is an old man's gun!!

As you stated, budget priorities are real and big Army has plunked down a ton of cash on the M17/M18 and SUPPORT for it.

We all laughed because we see a scenario where the armory has 9MM M17/M18s for your 9MM, high capacity, polymer scenarios and........1911s for when 45ACP and single action is desired. That made us all chuckle, as the Immortal 1911 in 2021, continues to have no replacement.

[Borderland]

That made us all chuckle, as the Immortal 1911 in 2021, continues to have no replacement.



Everyone and everything can be replaced. !911 should have died with the US military 20 plus years ago. I have several but I also have other 45 ACP pistols for comparison. The HK45 is the replacement for the 1911. It just never made it into the US military arsenal because they decided they wanted a 9mm pistol. I have nothing against 9mm. I have three for carry and SD, so I agree with the military's decision. 45 ACP is dead as a combat pistol.

[Tango]

Everyone and everything can be replaced. !911 should have died with the US military 20 plus years ago. I have several but I also have other 45 ACP pistols for comparison. The HK45 is the replacement for the 1911. It just never made it into the US military arsenal because they decided they wanted a 9mm pistol. I have nothing against 9mm. I have three for carry and SD, so I agree with the military's decision. 45 ACP is dead as a combat pistol.

The HK45 is a nice gun. If it was the 1911's replacement, then it would have replaced the 1911. 9MM has indeed become King but the 1911 and 45ACP continues to ride in holsters. We've also seen the 1911 and 9MM grow massively over the past 5 years.

[Borderland]

The HK45 is a nice gun. If it was the 1911's replacement, then it would have replaced the 1911. 9MM has indeed become King but the 1911 and 45ACP continues to ride in holsters. We've also seen the 1911 and 9MM grow massively over the past 5 years.

OK, you win. 1911 is the future. 9mm made it happen. :rolleyes:

[Tango]

OK, you win. 1911 is the future. 9mm made it happen. :rolleyes:

Maybe some wires got crossed here.

M17/M18: Is the present and future sidearm for the US Military overall. It has a bright future and one that may see overall acceptance by JSOC units.

9MM: The go to round now. Good round, solid round. 10 years from now we could be shooting 38 Super for some odd reason, but 9 is King currently. The acceptance of 9MM, caused the 1911 community to build better 9MM offerings. That is good for everyone all around.

Glocks: Good guns, I happen to carry one. Currently the favorite flavor for JSOC and has performed well. How it fairs in the future, against the M17/M18 for space in the JSOC arsenal remains to be seen.

1911: Good gun, also happen to carry one. Continues to serve and fill a role. At this time, there doesn't seem to be a "replacement". Nor do I see $$$ being spent to find a replacement. So, it will continue to serve but in the reduced numbers of specialized units.

[TGS]

JSGlock34

How is the Cerakote finish holding up on the commercial guns? Regardless of Colt switching over production to the Decobond finish, was the cerakote "fixed" after the initial batch that got returned to Colt?

I guess I should ask...if I pick up one of these and it happens to be a cerakoted commercial model, should it be okay to shoot occasionally as a range toy? Or should I really go for the decobond if I plan on shooting it at all, even minimally?

[JSGlock34]

JSGlock34

How is the Cerakote finish holding up on the commercial guns? Regardless of Colt switching over production to the Decobond finish, was the cerakote "fixed" after the initial batch that got returned to Colt?

I guess I should ask...if I pick up one of these and it happens to be a cerakoted commercial model, should it be okay to shoot occasionally as a range toy? Or should I really go for the decobond if I plan on shooting it at all, even minimally?

I haven't purchased a M45A1, so I'll defer to others to share their experiences. I went down the M45 rabbit hole once, but that's a parkerized gun.

[JSGlock34]

Well.... The Sig M18s have started to arrive at both the Recon units and the EOTG armories. Going forward the Special Tactics Branches are planning on running with whatever variant pistol shows up with a team as the transition is conducted. Force Platoons going out this year still have M45A1. Next year will probably be a mix. 2022 will likely be all Sig....

Honestly the biggest problem is the ammo allocation. A CQB class and certification consumes 500 k pistol. We have a allocation of 3.5 mil .45 ACP just for 2nd EOTG, our current 9mm allocation is nowhere near that and they are trying to figure out where to get the extra 9mm from going forward... 2020 shenanigans are not helping things much either...

Spotted this on the Force Recon instagram feed (https://www.instagram.com/p/COLvbyMLz8q/) and it reminded me of this thread...guess those M18s are finding their way into holsters. How's the transition progressing?

70764

[Forte Smitten Wesson]

I can't help but wonder what became of the USMC's H&K MK23s and MK24s in all of this. Granted that the MK23 was a behemoth, but the MK24 (aka USP45 Compact) seems like a logical replacement for the 1911, yet you never hear anything about it anymore so presumably it has been phased out of service entirely.

[HCM]

I can't help but wonder what became of the USMC's H&K MK23s and MK24s in all of this. Granted that the MK23 was a behemoth, but the MK24 (aka USP45 Compact) seems like a logical replacement for the 1911, yet you never hear anything about it anymore so presumably it has been phased out of service entirely.

The USMC never really fielded either.

The MK 23 was a SOCOM program and despite the HK fan boy cult, it was a flop not used by anyone who could avoid it.

The MK 24 was a Naval Special Warfare (SEAL) program and was the Navy’s official replacement for the mk23.

rcbusmc24

[TGS]

I can't help but wonder what became of the USMC's H&K MK23s and MK24s in all of this. Granted that the MK23 was a behemoth, but the MK24 (aka USP45 Compact) seems like a logical replacement for the 1911, yet you never hear anything about it anymore so presumably it has been phased out of service entirely.

In addition to what HCM already wrote about the USMC never fielding either system, the Mk24 is the HK45 Compact, not the USP45 Compact.

[HCM]

In addition to what HCM already wrote about the USMC never fielding either system, the Mk24 is the HK45 Compact, not the USP45 Compact.

Yes. Though I suspect if the USP45 Compact had been selected as the Mk23 back in the 90s it would have been much more successful.

[Joe in PNG]

If you think about it, the design of the 1911 is as distant from the 2021 serviceman as a single shot flintlock pistol would be to the 1921 serviceman.

That the current Sig isn't really all that mechanically distant from a 1911, or that it is chambered in a cartridge older than the .45acp is kind of interesting as well.

[TC215]

In addition to what HCM already wrote about the USMC never fielding either system, the Mk24 is the HK45 Compact, not the USP45 Compact.

Yep, the USP 45 CT was the Mk23 MOD 1, adopted in the early 2000's.

[A-Train]

My buddy (a former Marine) bought one a couple years ago when they had the civilian copies come out and I finally got to shoot it a couple weeks ago during a range trip together.

He said it wasn’t as accurate as he thought it would be, so I took a few shots at 15 yards and showed him maybe it was his inadequate Marine marksmanship training (I was an Army officer, LOL!)

70898

It’s a good looking 1911 with an interesting history. Sadly it’s likely to be one of the last officially issue 1911’s in service.

[UNK]

The issue 1911s were crap worn out and one I qualified with I placed a black sticky several inches outside the bull at 4:00 to hit the X. The Quantico guns however both 1911s and M14s were the bomb.

[rcbusmc24]

We have 5 legacy M45A1s left in the armory as of now. All CQC classes going forward will be using the M18 as well as all deploying CQC certified units. Base MPs have completed their transition as well so the 1911 era is pretty much ended for the USMC.

[rcbusmc24]

I also picked this up a few weeks ago, sort of as a retirement present to myself, also just cause...

71794

Just as a aside the last contract solicitation issued when the M45A1s were purchased required that the selected pistol use the Wilson 47D 7 round magazine with metal base pad, so only a 1911 type could have ever won the contract. Some people involved in the process were pushing for things like the HK45 or the S&W M&P 45, which was new to the market at that rime but was being well recieved but neither could be supported with the legacy equipment, mags, gear or manual of arms so..... it was a 1911 or nothing, because PWS was incapable of continuing to support the MEUSOC 1911 program...

[M2CattleCo]

Things like that is why we have to be super skeptical about any mil-spec.

[Borderland]

The M45A1 isn't much different than anything Colt presently makes. It has a rail and a different recoil spring but that's about it. There really isn't that much that's special about it.

If you matched a Colt Combat Unit series with an HK45 the Colt would fail miserably in the rounds fired without a malfunction match up.

The HK45 would have been HK's entry to replace the M9. I've gone through mine and shot it enough to know it's a far superior pistol. I'm not overly impressed with my P30.

If someone wanted a 1911A1 or a M45A1 to fondle and reconnect with the past I can certainly understand that. I have my 1911A1 touchstone because I carried one, but I've never shot it. I have a Gold Cup for that. An HK45 is reliable like a hammer. But everyone knows 45 ACP is dead and buried. ;)

http://pistol-training.com/archives/4027

[Robinson]

If you matched a Colt Combat Unit series with an HK45 the Colt would fail miserably in the rounds fired without a malfunction match up.

All those 45-chambered 1911s that are supposedly out there that are incapable of functioning properly are an enigma to me.

[Borderland]

All those 45-chambered 1911s that are supposedly out there that are incapable of functioning properly are an enigma to me.

I didn't say they were incapable of functioning. They just don't function as well as a Glock, Sig or HK. If you believe they do then I'm not going to try to convince you otherwise.

[TGS]

I also picked this up a few weeks ago, sort of as a retirement present to myself, also just cause...


Nice!

Are you going to stick with the 7 round mags?

I pinched myself pretty bad with the Wilson 47, so I think I might stick with the 8 round ETM, regardless of it not being original and sticking out a quarter inch. It sports the 10 round ETM when being used for HD.

BTW, did you time the grip screws so they matched up so perfectly? If so, there's a joke in there about your M45A1 being "gunny timed".

[Robinson]

I didn't say they were incapable of functioning. They just don't function as well as a Glock, Sig or HK. If you believe they do then I'm not going to try to convince you otherwise.

I would argue that if a Colt (or some other 1911) were to "fail miserably" in a reliability comparison, that it isn't functioning properly or isn't properly maintained.

[JSGlock34]

The M45A1 competition results weren’t exactly confidence inspiring. I was surprised at the high number of cracked slides at relatively low round counts.

[Robinson]

The M45A1 competition results weren’t exactly confidence inspiring. I was surprised at the high number of cracked slides at relatively low round counts.

And as a result Colt beefed up the slide and redesigned and relocated the front cocking serrations. Problem solved. The redesign was later adopted for the entire line of Rail Guns.

[TGS]

The M45A1 competition results weren’t exactly confidence inspiring. I was surprised at the high number of cracked slides at relatively low round counts.

Well, to be fair, that's the point of destructive testing, and the slides/frames were redesigned (beefed up) to make them more rugged...hence why the earlier Colt RGs have some different dimensions/steel thickness compared to the post-M45A1 trial RGs.

eta: robinson beat me while I was typing; wasn't intentionally piling on.

[JSGlock34]

Well, to be fair, that's the point of destructive testing, and the slides/frames were redesigned (beefed up) to make them more rugged...hence why the earlier Colt RGs have some different dimensions/steel thickness compared to the post-M45A1 trial RGs.

eta: robinson beat me while I was typing; wasn't intentionally piling on.

Totally fair point. But I’d also like to think by 2011 Colt had this formula pretty figured out (particularly before entering a military competition) and yet the M45A1 had its share of hiccups. I’d like to know how Springfield Armory managed to lose the competition, especially considering their history of providing parts and some complete pistols to the Corps.

I think the surprise performer in the tests were the original Wilson 47 magazines. Impressive showing.

[rcbusmc24]

Nice!

Are you going to stick with the 7 round mags?

I pinched myself pretty bad with the Wilson 47, so I think I might stick with the 8 round ETM, regardless of it not being original and sticking out a quarter inch. It sports the 10 round ETM when being used for HD.

BTW, did you time the grip screws so they matched up so perfectly? If so, there's a joke in there about your M45A1 being "gunny timed".


Stuff from today's range day down at the Brunswick County LE Range. As you can see the .45 stuff was a grab bag of mags that I had already loaded. Mostly various Wilsons and a few Chip McCormicks....I use the 8 rounders for USPSA single stack major, other than that i'm pretty mag agnostic. All my mid tier production 1911s run with all of these mags so I don't really worry about it. The 9mm ones like those ten round Wilsons tho... The grip screws were how it came, looks my grip might have shifted the top one a little today....

71828

[LittleLebowski]

The M45A1 competition results weren’t exactly confidence inspiring. I was surprised at the high number of cracked slides at relatively low round counts.

That’s putting it mildly, given the shenanigans that went on with the testing. I’ve got a devastating email from ToddG critiquing the testing, I need to dig it up.

[Ed L]

That’s putting it mildly, given the shenanigans that went on with the testing. I’ve got a devastating email from ToddG critiquing the testing, I need to dig it up.

Would love to see it.

[JohnK]

Would love to see it.

Same!

[TiroFijo]

Well, to be fair, that's the point of destructive testing, and the slides/frames were redesigned (beefed up) to make them more rugged...hence why the earlier Colt RGs have some different dimensions/steel thickness compared to the post-M45A1 trial RGs.

eta: robinson beat me while I was typing; wasn't intentionally piling on.

The "redesign" actually involved some thickness changes in the slide or just relocation of the front grasping grooves?

What happened to the double recoil spring setup of the M45A1? Does Colt still offers it today in other models? If not, why?

[RAM Engineer]

What happened to the double recoil spring setup of the M45A1? Does Colt still offers it today in other models? If not, why?

I was wondering this myself the other day. I'm pretty sure it's still in the Delta Elite models, since that is where it originated, but I don't know about the full size 45 models. They don't advertise it as a feature anymore, that's for sure.

[gtmtnbiker98]

I was wondering this myself the other day. I'm pretty sure it's still in the Delta Elite models, since that is where it originated, but I don't know about the full size 45 models. They don't advertise it as a feature anymore, that's for sure.

My government model Competition chambered in .45 ACP has the double recoil system, as did my commander Combat Elite also in .45 ACP.

[Robinson]

The "redesign" actually involved some thickness changes in the slide or just relocation of the front grasping grooves?

What happened to the double recoil spring setup of the M45A1? Does Colt still offers it today in other models? If not, why?

They redesigned the FCS cuts and moved them further forward to eliminate any sharp edges where the lower part containing the recoil spring meets the larger part of the slide.

The dual recoil spring setup came out of the fact that during the test, the single recoil springs were pretty well trashed after several thousand rounds and weren't being replaced. Colt still uses them on several current models.

[TGS]

The "redesign" actually involved some thickness changes in the slide or just relocation of the front grasping grooves?

What happened to the double recoil spring setup of the M45A1? Does Colt still offers it today in other models? If not, why?

In addition to what was already noted, I believe the rail was also made chunkier and holsters made for the earlier rail guns are not compatible with the M45A1 style rail. The change was applied to other RG models, at least within the CCU lineup.

[TiroFijo]

In addition to what was already noted, I believe the rail was also made chunkier and holsters made for the earlier rail guns are not compatible with the M45A1 style rail. The change was applied to other RG models, at least within the CCU lineup.

Thanks! I think that about completes the M45A1 redesign. Are current 5" railed Colt frames/slides made with the same specs?

[Robinson]

Thanks! I think that about completes the M45A1 redesign. Are current 5" railed Colt frames/slides made with the same specs?

Yes. I believe the M45 (production line and Custom Shop models) and the Colt Combat Unit Pistol are the only railed models left in the Colt lineup. But even the regular production Rail Gun was made that way for the last several years until it was recently discontinued.

[jh9]

In addition to what was already noted, I believe the rail was also made chunkier and holsters made for the earlier rail guns are not compatible with the M45A1 style rail. The change was applied to other RG models, at least within the CCU lineup.

https://th.bing.com/th/id/Ra1b5ed8b878222e06b73823a5cd5a0e9?rik=LtsbsUEg6m5Y BA&riu=http%3a%2f%2ftooeleshootingsupply.com%2fwp-content%2fuploads%2f2013%2f09%2fColt-Rail-Gun.jpg&ehk=UIg3%2fqy5x3PcJwioxN4CCpB5yRbDHcwrcXhMm%2bzH0% 2bw%3d&risl=&pid=ImgRaw

https://th.bing.com/th/id/R5356cdcedd1a833f74898a922b2873b7?rik=U9GvLD5A%2by IW%2bw&pid=ImgRaw

Yeah the rail change is glaring.

I kinda sorta regret selling my m45a1. Wasn't super impressed with the decobond finish. Minimal use and you could see shiny metal bewteen the grip safety and frame, etc. But it was probably the perfect epilogue to the 1911 as a US service pistol. Seems like it lasted longer in active service than the m14 did. :rolleyes:

[Half Moon]

Seems like it lasted longer in active service than the m14 did. :rolleyes:

Naw, if we're counting niche use, we still had M-14's for topside sharpshooters on shipboard security circa the early to mid 90's. Plus 1911's, M79 boop guns, 870's, etc. We were all ready for (early) Vietnam...

[JRB]

Lots of M14's ended up in EBR chassis systems and saw wide use in OEF/OIF. Now that the M110 and other 7.62 rifles are more widespread it's a rare beast these days, but a few are still out there.


My Army element shared a facility and some space with a Marine Recon unit that just got stood down and dissolved. I'm told they had about a dozen M45A1's left in the arms room, most had already been replaced with the 'M007' aka Glock 19. They didn't get any M18's since they were being dissolved.

[DDTSGM]

Naw, if we're counting niche use, we still had M-14's for topside sharpshooters on shipboard security circa the early to mid 90's. Plus 1911's, M79 boop guns, 870's, etc. We were all ready for (early) Vietnam...

Don't they still use them to shoot lines across during underway replenishment?

[Half Moon]

Don't they still use them to shoot lines across during underway replenishment?

Could be so. I'm like a quarter century out of the loop :-) I'd like to say our line throwers when I was in were actually 308 Garands but I don't recall it distinctly enough to swear to it.

[Trooper224]

Don't they still use them to shoot lines across during underway replenishment?

I think that's all they use them for these days. I shot at a Polar Bear with an M14, back in the Cold War. That's one of my "oh yeah, well...." dinner party stories. :)

[jh9]

We were all ready for (early) Vietnam...

Just needed the right conditions...

https://xl.movieposterdb.com/07_12/1980/80736/xl_80736_4257a70d.jpg?v=2021-04-23%2000:50:45

So did the M45A1 function as a direct successor to the M45 meusoc pistol? Would that make the 1911 in continuous service since 1911 in some limited/niche capacity?

That has to be some sort of record.

[rcbusmc24]

Just needed the right conditions...

https://xl.movieposterdb.com/07_12/1980/80736/xl_80736_4257a70d.jpg?v=2021-04-23%2000:50:45

So did the M45A1 function as a direct successor to the M45 meusoc pistol? Would that make the 1911 in continuous service since 1911 in some limited/niche capacity?

That has to be some sort of record.

Yes. Until this year... 1911 to 2021( in a limited capacity).

[JSGlock34]

Transition to M18 underway...end of an era.
A U.S. Marine with Force Reconnaissance Company, 2nd Reconnaissance Battalion, 2nd Marine Division, prepares to fire during a live-fire range on Camp Lejeune, N.C., Sept. 9, 2021. Members of the Marine Corps Shooting Team supervised a range to provide specialized knowledge and feedback for Force Reconnaissance Company to further mastery of weapons techniques. (U.S. Marine Corps photo by Lance Cpl. Jacqueline C. Arre)
p/CU22P7JMsmv
p/CU11hhEM7Bx
p/CU02Jq1Kzsi

[03RN]

Transition to M18 underway...end of an era.
A U.S. Marine with Force Reconnaissance Company, 2nd Reconnaissance Battalion, 2nd Marine Division, prepares to fire during a live-fire range on Camp Lejeune, N.C., Sept. 9, 2021. Members of the Marine Corps Shooting Team supervised a range to provide specialized knowledge and feedback for Force Reconnaissance Company to further mastery of weapons techniques. (U.S. Marine Corps photo by Lance Cpl. Jacqueline C. Arre)
p/CU22P7JMsmv
p/CU11hhEM7Bx
p/CU02Jq1Kzsi

I carried my g19 for 10 years at sea after I got out so I get it but this still makes me sad:(

[TGS]

Perfect video for the July 4th weekend. 'Murica.

M45A1 still in use as of June 15th, 2022:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbIcRXYfBb8

JSGlock34 rcbusmc24

[JSGlock34]

Perfect video for the July 4th weekend. 'Murica.

M45A1 still in use as of June 15th, 2022:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbIcRXYfBb8

JSGlock34 rcbusmc24

Cool video - thanks for sharing. TGS - how's your M45A1 running? Admittedly my 1911 does not see as much use anymore since I've gone to the Staccato; I greatly benefit from the RDS these days.

[TGS]

Cool video - thanks for sharing. TGS - how's your M45A1 running? Admittedly my 1911 does not see as much use anymore since I've gone to the Staccato; I greatly benefit from the RDS these days.

A-ok. I shoot it once every few months. My current girlfriend is an immigrant that grew up around guns (police) but has never handled a gun and wants to learn how to shoot, so maybe we'll take it out this weekend!

[TGS]

I check media a few times a year. Last was July...so, I'm a few months late but still wanted to add this.

M45A1 still in use as of September 24th, 2022, as indicated by the older Safariland 6004 and stainless 1911 mags. Possibly the last deployment, every other MRF seems to have transitioned.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CjY74Cnq_oF/

[TGS]

I'm going to throw this here since it's an obvious clone and likely not to generate enough interest to warrant its own thread.

The Raider, by TISAS. The M45A1 on a Turkish budget, MSRP is about half that of the M45A1.

99970

Previously the only M45A1'ish clone that you could get was the Kimber Desert Warrior. There's several reasons I find this interesting, because it looks like they made an actual effort to build their own M45A1. Trigger guard undercut, front cocking serrations, 3-dot Novak's, and the grips are even pretty close to the actual Colt M45A1. FDE isn't the correct color, but I guess it's close enough.

Most notably, they went through the trouble of actually using a 1913 pic rail instead of a universal rail, and even beefed it up. It's thicker that most railed frames, and likely will only fit an M45A1 holster. It's not quite as thick and beefed up as the actual Colt M45A1, but that's pretty cool they went through that effort.

Lastly, the easter eggs...it's stamped "Raider", a clear nod to the Marine Raiders, albeit they only used the M45A1 for a couple years. Next it's even got the "U.S." rollmark on the frame over the light rail, similar to the actual gun. I'm curious to see what's on the other side.

If you've wanted an M45A1 just to scratch an itch but haven't been able to justify the price, this might be your ticket. Thanks to Kyle Reese for pointing this out to me.

[JonInWA]

Based on this thread, I meandered over to the Tisas website...always a dangerous activity. Anyone here got any significant with the Tisas 1911s? How's their quality, assemble, QC, accuracy, durability, etc.?

I'll admit to being a tad tempted by their 9mm Tank Commander; if they're at all decent, seems to be a pretty inexpensive way to get into the 9mm commander door...

Best, Jon

[Kyle Reese]

Based on this thread, I meandered over to the Tisas website...always a dangerous activity. Anyone here got any significant with the Tisas 1911s? How's their quality, assemble, QC, accuracy, durability, etc.?

I'll admit to being a tad tempted by their 9mm Tank Commander; if they're at all decent, seems to be a pretty inexpensive way to get into the 9mm commander door...

Best, Jon

TGS and I are heading to the range tomorrow to break in my brand new 5” 1911 9mm made by TISAS. I’ll report back and let everyone know how it went.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[wmu12071]

TGS and I are heading to the range tomorrow to break in my brand new 5” 1911 9mm made by TISAS. I’ll report back and let everyone know how it went.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I have a 4.25" railed 9mm that is in transit to my FFL right now. I should be shooting it sometime in the week of the 23rd.

[TGS]

I included the Tisas Raider in here since it's an M45A1 clone, even claimed as such by the manufacturer.

We can start a new thread about Tisas pistols in general to keep this one on track. If nobody has done it by tomorrow night, I'll create a new Tisas 1911 thread after I get back from the range with Kyle Reese.