Combative training or martial arts for kids

[Gun Nerd]

I’m looking for a starter option for my kids (9 year old daughter and 5 year old son).

My own background includes judo as a grade school kid in the ‘70s, a semester of wrestling class in high school PE, some dabbling in escrima and JKD in the ‘90s, and a couple of rec center fencing classes. (Every 20 years I get the bug and decide again it’s not for me.).

I’ve also taken the InSights Training Center unarmed defense class from John Holschen (three times, because John is awesome). Ideally, I’d like to find something like that, but tailored to kids’ capabilities and attention spans.

Any suggestions will be appreciated.

[MGW]

If you can find a good kids BJJ class I would start there. Do a search for Gracie Bully Proof. From what I’ve seen it’s a really good program but any good jits program will have a good kids curriculum. I think wrestling would be a really good base too but it can get really competitive and intense (mostly for the parents) in a hurry. Judo is awesome too but maybe not as an introduction to combatives.

If you don’t mind sharing your general location there are lots of people here that could point you in the direction of a good gym or two.

[Gun Nerd]

If you don’t mind sharing your general location there are lots of people here that could point you in the direction of a good gym or two.

I’m in northern Virginia. Thanks!

[spelingmastir]

Wrestling is generally the cheapest and makes them the toughest. It also becomes harder to find as an adult.

[EPF]

I’m looking for a starter option for my kids (9 year old daughter and 5 year old son).

My own background includes judo as a grade school kid in the ‘70s, a semester of wrestling class in high school PE, some dabbling in escrima and JKD in the ‘90s, and a couple of rec center fencing classes. (Every 20 years I get the bug and decide again it’s not for me.).

I’ve also taken the InSights Training Center unarmed defense class from John Holschen (three times, because John is awesome). Ideally, I’d like to find something like that, but tailored to kids’ capabilities and attention spans.

Any suggestions will be appreciated.

I’m in NOVA and my daughters have been training BJJ for 3 years. There are several great kids programs in the area. I would simply try a few or pick one that is logistically best for your family since traffic is such a nightmare. My girls have greatly benefitted from bjj both mentally and physically. They absolutely love it and I’ve never had to force them attend class.

I will admit that’s it’s very pleasing when my 11 year old daughter regularly triangle chokes older and larger boys. :cool:

The wrestling idea is also great, but IMO that road leads to bjj eventually as well.

[Cecil Burch]

I’ve also taken the InSights Training Center unarmed defense class from John Holschen (three times, because John is awesome). Ideally, I’d like to find something like that, but tailored to kids’ capabilities and attention spans.



John Holschen is a treasure in the training community and is an amazing wealth of knowledge.

Having regularly had students as young as 13 in my road courses, as well as my weekly classes (and being a father to two now adults), I don't think that a class like that should exist. I have yet to see one, and I don't think one ever will. The main problem is that it can be tough enough to get adults to accept certain realities of the world and of violence (a few years ago in NYC, I had a woman absolutely refuse to contemplate using any kind of weapon at all to defend herself with, even with the knowledge that a friend of hers had been raped), and trying to do so on kids would be so much harder. IMO, they need more time understanding the world. Where that kind of learning works best is on a constant basis by a parent/guardian/mentor, not in a two day fire hose course. They will learn these things best in bits of piece as they go through life and learn about the world in general.

What is beneficial is a physical activity that keeps them fit, arms them with skills and knowledge and does not screw them up.

I would stay away from a striking based system to start with. While that is a useful skill for later, the amount of trauma a kid will take - even with careful control - is too much. I am of the camp that a grappling method is best. Any of BJJ, wrestling, or Judo would work fine.

Plus and minuses of them -

wrestling - easy to find for kids. There are tons of clubs and camps, as well as a goodly number of public schools have it. Nothing will teach someone to control where a fight goes better than wrestling, and they will be fit and tough as hell. On a basic level, if you do not get heavy into competing all the time, it is not expensive sport to start, especially if your child's school has a team. Negatives are that it is tough on the body and that outside of being able to throw a guy hard and hit him with the planet, there are not a lot of things directly applicable to finishing a fight when you need to protect yourself.

Judo- all the positives of wrestling, with the bonus of having a lot more options to end a fight. Also, in judo your kids will get the single most useful skill set that will ever have from a grappling system - the ability to take a hard fall and not get injured. I have the students in my weekly Fundamental class do a lot of breakfalls because I tell them "you may never need to defend yourself physically and you may never compete, but at some point in your life you will trip and fall hard, and breakfalls WILL save you". It also tends to be a really affordable art. The negatives are that it is bit harder to find a good judo club, and it is even harder on the body than wrestling. I love judo almost as much as I do BJJ, but I have to really be careful how much I do it with my soon to be 55 year old body. There is a strong argument that judo and wrestling is better for kids than adults to do because their bodies are more resilient and can recover from tings better, but I still am a bit nervous at the accumulation even so.

BJJ - easy to find now thanks to it's popularity. Most schools have dedicated kids program and have put time into developing it. It already has self-defense as a base so there is usually that aspect still important in the kids program even if the adult program is more competition oriented. And most importantly, of the grappling systems it is the least traumatic to the body. The negatives include that it tends to be more expensive than the other two, and with the popularity of it, there are now some schools that are not really legit so you have to do your research.

[Gun Nerd]

All,

Thanks for the thoughtful and detailed comments, and especially to Cecil for the thorough breakdown.


John Holschen is a treasure in the training community and is an amazing wealth of knowledge.

Having regularly had students as young as 13 in my road courses, as well as my weekly classes (and being a father to two now adults), I don't think that a class like that should exist. I have yet to see one, and I don't think one ever will.

I wasn't really thinking of a two-day class for kids (which would be a challenge in terms of attention span) - more of a system that I could look at for a few tools relevant to kids.

In a fit of enthusiasm and because I had a coupon code, I bought a Century "Bobby Bully." The kids have fun smacking it but I quickly realized they may not have the strength to do much more than annoy an adult attacker.

I'll look around at BJJ options. Both of my kids took local rec center classes from a BJJ place but the (very young) instructor was hampered by lack of command presence and over-complicating things for his audience.

GN

[UNK]

I can wholly recommend boxing and wrestling if you can find it for the 9 yr old.
Locally we have one high school that has a youth wrestling program administrated through parks and rec.
There is also a local MMA center that has a youth program
There is also a youth boxing program through i believe a police org or dept. It might be called Cobra but Im not sure.

[RoyGBiv]

My martial arts background is very.... Modest. Wrestling in HS, intramural wrestling and a year of TKD in college. My oldest did karate through blue belt before switching to swimming in 8th grade. My youngest earned a black belt in TKD at 14. He never did get comfortable with the contact elements of TKD, so I don't know how useful it would be in the real world.

I would definitely point my kids towards BJJ today. As early as I could find a good class at the appropriate level. I believe the experience of rolling with an opponent in a non impact environment helps kids clear some hurdles that more traditional MA don't. I don't know any 10 year old that wants to get punched or kicked. I don't know any 4 year old that doesn't love wrestling.

[UNK]

What i saw when both of my kids boxed was not much impact to start.
Typically they were teamed with an experienced boxer who could control their punches.
Sparring was more of a tap than a hit.
They were started with stance movement bag work and endurance training which wasnt near enough to get them through one round. They both collapsed at the end of their first round. However with time they both were able to go numerous rounds of sparring well beyond the three round requirement
I think that is the advantage of boxing. You have full contact eventually.
The importance of the skill set of the coach cannot be emphasized strongly enough. My kids coach was a former professional boxer with many years of working with kids. And he had a lot of champions at all levels up to nationals and international.
A lot of kids come and go in boxing, It is most definitely not for everyone.

[Gio]

I think it's extremely hard to beat wrestling for kids that age. I started my son at age 5 in youth wrestling in Northern Virginia and the programs there were awesome. We've since moved back down to Georgia, he's going on 9 now with 4 years of experience under his belt, and he's an absolute beast against kids his age. I've been really impressed at what the sport has done for his mental and physical toughness. I've asked him if he was nervous from pressure during other endeavors in his life: swim meets, soccer games, school tests, etc and his response is always, "no, this is nothing compared to a wrestling match."

[45dotACP]

I really can't do much else but echo what Cecil is saying.

Also, this sentiment is probably universal, but I wish I got into BJJ as a kid. With work and grown up obligations, my training volume is puny compared to some of these murdercats who have been rolling three or four times a week since age 9.

If you have a daughter I'd very strongly recommend Brazilian Jiu Jitsu because of the types of threats that face women. If a girl starts training at age 9, by the time she has to deal with shit headed dudes she may have a significant amount experience with conditioning, takedown skills, the stress of competition, and some degree of refinement to her core grappling skills. Those are skills (especially from guard) that allow her to break or render unconscious, a larger assailant. At the very best, any dude dumb enough to attack her will suffer a broken limb or be rendered unconscious while she escapes. Even if that isn't possible, she can stand a better chance at surviving the attack, and taking less damage than someone unequipped to handle a groundfight.

Just my .02 in spite of how morbid it seems.

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[Gun Nerd]

All,

Thanks for more great comments.

I know that in BJJ there are a lot of fine points in terms of screening instructor credentials, “lineage,” etc.

Here’s one local gym: https://www.testudobjj.com. How does it look to those in the know?

GN

[amyacker]

What do you want out of a marial art? In addition to focus and discipline, what else?

[Cecil Burch]

All,

Thanks for more great comments.

I know that in BJJ there are a lot of fine points in terms of screening instructor credentials, “lineage,” etc.

Here’s one local gym: https://www.testudobjj.com. How does it look to those in the know?

GN



I would say that gym deserves a try for sure. Looks legit, and I am fascinated by the instructor - a high level judoka who seems to have embraced BJJ and got a black belt in that. Very interesting, and has a lot of promise for what he can teach.

[Gun Nerd]

I would say that gym deserves a try for sure. Looks legit, and I am fascinated by the instructor - a high level judoka who seems to have embraced BJJ and got a black belt in that. Very interesting, and has a lot of promise for what he can teach.

Cool, thanks!

GN

[jc000]

All,

Thanks for more great comments.

I know that in BJJ there are a lot of fine points in terms of screening instructor credentials, “lineage,” etc.

Here’s one local gym: https://www.testudobjj.com. How does it look to those in the know?

GN

Gun nerd, I know Testudo BJJ – one of their kids just medaled in a kids tournament we ran the other week. Definitely a solid, known-quantity school.

I’m in NOVA and train BJJ as do my two sons, 8 and 11. Please feel free to PM me with any questions on area schools. Tons of great options, including many within my local affiliation.

[Gun Nerd]

Gun nerd, I know Testudo BJJ – one of their kids just medaled in a kids tournament we ran the other week. Definitely a solid, known-quantity school.

I’m in NOVA and train BJJ as do my two sons, 8 and 11. Please feel free to PM me with any questions on area schools. Tons of great options, including many within my local affiliation.

Great feedback, thanks!

[Mister X]

If it were my kids, I'd limit their training to maybe learning some basic self-defense skills safely at the most. I'd be extremely cautious with a daughter.

Any extensive martial arts training comes with some fairly serious risks and I just wouldn't want to subject my children to it and I don't to the dismay of those who know my background. I've seen kids(usually teenagers) experience some pretty bad injuries in karate, wrestling, judo and BJJ over the years that will negatively affect them for the rest of their lives. I imagine many resent their parents for not doing a better job of looking out for them.

I can't see grappling really being much safer than striking systems in general, just different risks and none of them good, but it all depends on the specific program.

You have to think long term regardless.

https://www.bjjee.com/articles/long-term-effects-of-a-lifetime-of-grappling-competition-training/

[Chuck Whitlock]

Also, in judo your kids will get the single most useful skill set that will ever have from a grappling system - the ability to take a hard fall and not get injured.

This right here. I took a couple of years of judo/karate as a young teenager via a city youth program. I'm 50 now, and there have been numerous times in my adult life that breakfalling has saved me from potential injury. I do wish that BJJ had been a thing locally then.



If it were my kids, I'd limit their training to maybe learning some basic self-defense skills safely at the most. I'd be extremely cautious with a daughter.

Any extensive martial arts training comes with some fairly serious risks and I just wouldn't want to subject my children to it and I don't to the dismay of those who know my background. I've seen kids(usually teenagers) experience some pretty bad injuries in karate, wrestling, judo and BJJ over the years that will negatively affect them for the rest of their lives. I imagine many resent their parents for not doing a better job of looking out for them.

I can't see grappling really being much safer than striking systems in general, just different risks and none of them good, but it all depends on the specific program.

You have to think long term regardless.

https://www.bjjee.com/articles/long-term-effects-of-a-lifetime-of-grappling-competition-training/

Not just combatives, though. I recall having breakfast at a hotel on a roadtrip, along with a traveling girls sports team....IIRC, it was soccer.....but a coach and some parents were talking about a number of 14-15 year old girls having reconstructive surgery for blown out knees and such. I have the distinct impression that the risks are much higher on the hardcore competition circuit than from class participation.

[Cecil Burch]

Not just combatives, though. I recall having breakfast at a hotel on a roadtrip, along with a traveling girls sports team....IIRC, it was soccer.....but a coach and some parents were talking about a number of 14-15 year old girls having reconstructive surgery for blown out knees and such. I have the distinct impression that the risks are much higher on the hardcore competition circuit than from class participation.


Absolutely. Having had a son who did club lacrosse all through high school, and a daughter that did basketball, soccer, and track, and both of them did BJJ (my son started at 4 and my daughter at 10), I can tell you the incidence of severe injury was exponentially greater in the sports outside of BJJ. During the years my kids were in the kids BJJ class, there was not one child who ever missed training due to an injury suffered in BJJ - not just mine, but literally no other kid in the group - , even when they competed. The same could not be said for the other sports. Seeing the number of 15/15/16 year olds go down with ACL injuries - especially in lacrosse and basketball - was stunning.

[45dotACP]

Yeah my high school had athletic trainers and physical therapists at the sidelines of many games. As a student, I took an athletic training class and we were taught how to do a lachman and anterior drawer test to identify blown ACLs and a lot of the students of that class would attend athletic events. Compared to wrestling, the basketball and football programs had far more injuries. Never went to a rugby game but those guys and gals beat the fuck out of each other and I heard an interview with John Danaher that he really fucked his leg up doing rugby before he ever went into BJJ.

Of note, cheerleaders often wound up with a ton of pretty nasty injuries and almost all of them suffered repetitive strain injuries.

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[Mister X]

Not just combatives, though. I recall having breakfast at a hotel on a roadtrip, along with a traveling girls sports team....IIRC, it was soccer.....but a coach and some parents were talking about a number of 14-15 year old girls having reconstructive surgery for blown out knees and such. I have the distinct impression that the risks are much higher on the hardcore competition circuit than from class participation.


I don't know anything about kiddie BJJ classes, but I have to question the motivation and purpose for them. I know a lot of places used to offer "pre-karate" and that never made much sense to me either. They're not learning any practical or functional skills. And if the intent is to build a foundation through the guise of play, why? What's the benefit that you can't get elsewhere in a more positive and safer environment where the kid learns a more useful skill? Even if the kids classes are conducted safely, where does it ultimately lead? Teenagers and college age kids are often extremely reckless and don't always fully grasp the immediate risks and future consequences of their actions.

Parents have to realize how much influence they have on the thinking of their children and sometimes question and analyze the reasons behind their own actions and motivations. Plus peer pressure is real and applies just as much to adults as it does to kids. We see the same group thought dynamic in politics, on gun forums and in martial arts styles and organizations where people are very much influenced, if not unknowingly indoctrinated to accept the groups opinions as fact and their views as being healthy and normal even if they're clearly not to those outside of the group. Just look at the Gracie family or the latest fitness trend that is crossfit. What if the child is extremely talented, where it does it go from there? Adults choosing to do something of their own free will is one thing, but influencing, coercing or directly forcing a child into something that isn't healthy, constructive and in their overall best interest is really irresponsible parenting IMO.

[45dotACP]

stuff.

Dude, I think you might be overthinking this. Combat sports don't instill any innate sense of violence. That exists independently. If your kid is reckless or a sociopath then sure, don't teach them to fight.

Broadly speaking, most of the kids/teens I've met through BJJ aren't the ones with multiple visits to the principal's office.

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[Cecil Burch]

I don't know anything about kiddie BJJ classes, but I have to question the motivation and purpose for them.


So you know nothing about something specific, but decide you are capable of criticizing it? Okay. Makes perfect sense.

People who DO KNOW, from real world actual experience, have said otherwise to your opinion, but you continue to insist you have insight. It might behoove you to actual look into something firsthand, or at the very least actually THINK about the facts before you continue making yourself heard.

[Mister X]

So you know nothing about something specific, but decide you are capable of criticizing it? Okay. Makes perfect sense.

People who DO KNOW, from real world actual experience, have said otherwise to your opinion, but you continue to insist you have insight. It might behoove you to actual look into something firsthand, or at the very least actually THINK about the facts before you continue making yourself heard.


I don't know much about them in the sense of structuring and organizing a young children's BJJ class specifically. I talked quite a bit with Royce, Rickson and Rodrigo in the early 90's about their philosophy on training children and watched a few classes. I just have a different perspective. And I think my experience with teaching youth wrestling, karate and judo is relevant to understanding the topic. I can't say anyone has ever accused me of lacking real world experience on this issue, the martial arts in general or of failing to think through my viewpoint, but I guess there's a first time for everything. No biggie.

I read through all the posts on the thread, and considered what was presented. Am I not allowed to offer an alternative opinion here?

[45dotACP]

There's some irony in the fact that the article posted mentioned Megaton as one of the guys who regularly competes without injury...I think Cecil might know him but I'm not 100 percent sure...

I guess some of the points being made just aren't consistent. First it's stated that kids might get injured in a contact sport. Kind of a given. That is a risk in any sport of course, and many youth athletes injure themselves. The injuries associated with a sport like football or cheerleading or basketball or soccer are just as serious and probably more likely.

Next the arguement that it may be irresponsible to teach adolescents how to fight because they're dangerous or reckless. Yet there are fights amongst untrained kids (and adults) all the time. There are youth hunters. There are youth competitive shooters. We let teens drive. Is responsibility a habit or a chronological age?

The fear of indoctrination mentioned in the same breath as college aged kids. Yet where else are you exposed to numerous charismatic types of various ideologies who will absolutely attempt to indoctrinate you?

All of these things are a risk even in isolation of the martial arts, as per the BJJEE article linked. Just sitting at a desk all day will probably injure you and leave you with debilitating lifestyle illnesses that you will hate yourself for developing.

TL;DR Is it truly reasonable to argue that practicing martial arts is actually bad for a kid? I do not think so.

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[Gun Nerd]

All,

By way of update, the kids have been training at Testudo for about a month. The instructors are fantastic with kids (I wish I could command the same attention) and the kids love it.

Last week on the way to class, my five-year-old announced that he wants to be a BJJ instructor when he grows up. And yesterday, when there was no class due to a local competition, they put on their gis and started rolling in the living room.

I just wish the schedule for adult classes worked for me!

[03RN]

A focused supervised outlet for agression is probably the most important thing for boys.

Self confidence and the ability to defend themselves from the world is probably the most important thing for girls.

[03RN]

I don't know much about them in the sense of structuring and organizing a young children's BJJ class specifically. I talked quite a bit with Royce, Rickson and Rodrigo in the early 90's about their philosophy on training children and watched a few classes. I just have a different perspective. And I think my experience with teaching youth wrestling, karate and judo is relevant to understanding the topic. I can't say anyone has ever accused me of lacking real world experience on this issue, the martial arts in general or of failing to think through my viewpoint, but I guess there's a first time for everything. No biggie.

I read through all the posts on the thread, and considered what was presented. Am I not allowed to offer an alternative opinion here?

You are questioning the purpose of kid bjj classes in one post and say you teach youth wrestling, karate, and judo in another.

I would think the purpose would be the same.

[Clusterfrack]

If it were my kids, I'd limit their training to maybe learning some basic self-defense skills safely at the most. I'd be extremely cautious with a daughter.

Any extensive martial arts training comes with some fairly serious risks and I just wouldn't want to subject my children to it and I don't to the dismay of those who know my background. I've seen kids(usually teenagers) experience some pretty bad injuries in karate, wrestling, judo and BJJ over the years that will negatively affect them for the rest of their lives. I imagine many resent their parents for not doing a better job of looking out for them.

I can't see grappling really being much safer than striking systems in general, just different risks and none of them good, but it all depends on the specific program.

You have to think long term regardless.

https://www.bjjee.com/articles/long-term-effects-of-a-lifetime-of-grappling-competition-training/

I totally understand your concerns. But a good dojo will train responsibly. Football, girls soccer, and gymnastics to name a few have significant injury risks—far above martial arts.

Why would you be more concerned about girls getting injured? Self esteem, mental toughness, and physical fitness all trump a few broken bones in my opinion as a parent of girls.

My tattoo artist is a nationally ranked no-gi BJJ competitor, and her daughter is well on her way. If you asked them, I’m guessing they would emphatically disagree with your concerns.

[Oukaapie]

I’ll provide an alternative view. Look at places convenient to get to where the instructors are good with kids. Avoid arse holes and pony tails. Have the kids try a couple classes, go with what they like. Keep them happy, keep them In shape, not hating training or you. Supplement their training with easy real stuff. All kids training have massive gaps.

Get some focus mitts for home, work basic pad drills with a focus on cover and counterpunch rather than fancy foot work and head movement. Add some knees and elbows, some easy sparring with dad and if they love it take them to boxing or Thai boxing.

If they like grappling, awesome. A million great suggestions already provided. Still cover the mitt work and some fun sparring.

[spelingmastir]

One pattern I’ve seen is that many of the kids that are the best at a given art have a parent that is active in it. What message are you giving your kids when you enroll them in something that you don’t do?

[Polecat]

I started mine off in Jujitsu when he was 6 and when she turned 6. He is a purple belt shes just a bit behind. Their Shihan is a great Dad is his own right, which parlays over to an insightful kiddo instructor. He understands the inattention, the desire to give up, and yet is able to reassure them, bolster their confidence and not give them anything they don’t earn.

He is cautious and careful with respect to sparring, sizes them up carefully with one another. I throw in some BJJ during the school breaks for variety and just to let them see what else is out there. They also do private boxing lessons 1 to 2 hours a month. My daughter loves the less structured BJJ and boxing. It has done so much for his self esteem and her coordination. We did a Bully Proof seminar this last summer which they loved. He is starting to learn The Bo and is way pumped about that.

Best part is when he gets an appetite to roll just before bed. He’ll go “ Daddy, can you bring it!” Too funny, drives his momma nuts.

[Gun Nerd]

Given where we are in this movie, any thoughts on the Gracie University online courses?

https://www.gracieuniversity.com/Pages/Public/Courses

They have a bunch of free ones for kids, but I haven’t made the time commitment to pre-screen. We also have a friend whose 10-year-old daughter wants some training - but when things open up, she has other sports commitments that will conflict with BJJ.