P30 auto slide release - training around the issue

[2xAGM114]

I've read here and other sites about the "feature" where the P30 can slide release on its own when a mag is inserted firmly. It doesn't happen 100% of the time but often enough to be a inconsistent distraction.

My question is how people are training around the issue. I release the slide by using a hand on the back of the slide and pulling rearward versus using the slide lock lever. If the slide releases on its own some of the time, it can subconsciously disrupt the thought process for the split second it takes to recognize it. If I release the slide in the same way every time and the slide has already released on its own, I have at times cycled the slide again without needing to and dumped a round in the dirt inadvertently.

How do you train for something that only happens part of the time?

Has HK ever addressed the issue? I have never heard whether it was mag or gun related.

[JJN]

Todd taught a method where the thumb ride the release and you drive the gun up into the thumb. This ensured a deliberate auto forward for lack of a better term. There was a thread on TPI about it and maybe here and/or p-t.com

[UNM1136]

^^^^^^^This.


I use this method and teach it across platforms. I tell people to apply light, steady pressure to the slide lock/release with thumb and to continue the motion of firmly seating the magazine once it is seated so the gun is essentially pushed into the stationary thumb.

I don't like auto forward feature. I have seen too many otherwise switched on shooters try to spank thier guns until the slide drops. In my experience if it doesn't work the first time it ain't going to go. I see no reason to spank a gun...

pat

[Default.mp3]

My auto-forwarded is actually extremely consistent on my P30LS, although I use 20 round and 25 round magazines. That being said, I have practice enough that if the slide doesn't go forward, I will intuitively hit the slide release. For me, it simply took practice; I also safe the gun when reloading, so it can get a a bit complicated if I also have to hit the slide, yet it's not been a major issue for me, even under the pressure and time constraints of drills in a class (I haven't gone dry in a match in a long time, but I don't recall it ever being an issue there, either). The safety manipulation is also why I don't ride the slide lever when reloading as taught by Todd.

[HCM]

Auto forwarding is not a feature, it’s a malfunction. The inconsistency the OP mentioned is the reason why.

That said if you can’t modify your reload or grip to eliminate it, then the TLG method is the best coping mechanism.

[MGW]

Practice Todd’s method a lot under time pressure. I’ve accidentally dropped the slide before the magazine was seated a couple of times resulting in an empty chamber. It’s operator error but something to be aware of.

[HCountyGuy]

Todd’s technique sounds interesting, and definitely something I’ll give a try.

If I understand it correctly, keep your thumb flagged above the slide release and use the momentum of inserting the mag to let the gun ride up so that the thumb hits the release?

[2xAGM114]

So the consensus is this "feature" in not something that can be fixed. Not even by HK. That's disappointing.

I may be in the minority but any handgun you trust for personal defense should 100% reliable and have duplicatable behaviors 100% of the time.

Anyone have a YouTube video of Todd G's technique?

Thanks.

[HCM]

So the consensus is this "feature" in not something that can be fixed. Not even HK. That's disappointing.

Anyone have a YouTube video of Todd G's technique?

Stronger slide lock spring or see if the mag is hitting the internal lobe of the slide lock ?

It can be “fixed” by not slamming the mag in so hard and keeping your fingers away from the slide lock lever.

[HopetonBrown]

Anyone have a YouTube video of Todd G's technique?

Thanks.

I believe it's called "pre-loading".

After you press the magazine release, your dominant thumb moves to the slide stop. The force of the mag insertion presses the gun up with the slide release up and into your thumb, dropping the slide.

[Weaponeer]

So the consensus is this "feature" in not something that can be fixed. Not even by HK. That's disappointing.

I may be in the minority but any handgun you trust for personal defense should 100% reliable and have duplicatable behaviors 100% of the time.

Anyone have a YouTube video of Todd G's technique?

Thanks.

Not sure why it needs to be fixed. It surprised me the first time but after doing some research I accepted that that is function of the pistol. It happens with my VP9 and Steyr M9 also. If it loading a magazine aggressively doesn’t release the slide I use the slide release. Dealing with this should be as reflexive as clearing a stovepipe malfunction.

Actually, I kinda like the feature. [emoji854]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Artemas2]

Once you seat the mag and are already mentally prepared to to press the slide release how much does it matter if the slide is forward or not?

Same thing with using the overhand method. Is it costing you time to mentally notice the slide is now forward and you can start your grip sooner than if you had to complete the hand travel an rack the slide back?

Are you seeing a noticeable difference on the timer or is it just a feeling of slowness because it is not what you planed to accomplish.

Different issue but similar concept:
I use a high grip and have bigger hands, most of the time my slide does not lock back at all so I often use a over hand rack. When it does lock back I use the slide release because I am already pressing it after putting in a new mag. The mental "WTF!" stutter happens while I am still in motion and has minimal effect on my reload time.

Try a different attitude towards the issue before making any gun/parts changes. Maybe it will help

[HopetonBrown]

Not sure why it needs to be fixed. It surprised me the first time but after doing some research I accepted that that is function of the pistol. It happens with my VP9 and Steyr M9 also. If it loading a magazine aggressively doesn’t release the slide I use the slide release. Dealing with this should be as reflexive as clearing a stovepipe malfunction.

Actually, I kinda like the feature. [emoji854]


Some people demand repeatability, and for many who see it as a feature will stand there staring at the gun for longer than they realize when it doesn't auto-forward.

If you watch people reload, the slower ones complete the reload as a series of individual steps, as opposed to a fluid motion. I'd wager the ones who see auto-forwarding as a feature would be from the former camp.

Ken Hackathorn said that inserting the magazine at an angle instead of in line with the mag well often is the reason why a gun auto-forwards.

(if it's actually not called auto - forwarding I will feel dumb).

[Default.mp3]

If you watch people reload, the slower ones complete the reload as a series of individual steps, as opposed to a fluid motion. I'd wager the ones who see auto-forwarding as a feature would be from the former camp.I see it as a feature, and I don't think I'm too slow (it's been awhile since I've done a FAST, but my reloads were usually 1.7 - 1.9). It's not like it's hard to train yourself to recognize that the slide is still locked back, and to hit the slide release, when it's a gun with as big a slide release as an H&K P-series, as you move from your workspace to extension, without any real loss of time. If you're gonna rely specifically on auto-forwarding, going as far as to ignore other manipulations when it fails and end up constantly tapping the magazine to force it, then yes, that's extremely silly, but using it conjunction with a slide release seems to me to be very viable.

[SsevenN]

Always seems like reloads are overthought. Insert the magazine, have whatever finger you release with indexed and perform the releasing motion after the magazine is seated, auto forwarding won't change the speed or outcome.

[Sauer Koch]

I’ve had this happen twice with my P30 during a course. Made me stop and thing “wth just happened”, but I also thought, “cool” and just moved on.
They are VERY sensitive! I’ve hit mine many times, and had no idea that I touched it...and I even swapped mine for the short model, and I still find a way to ride it.

[archangel]

I have short thumbs, and on some guns - particularly ones with thumb safeties - it can be awkward getting my strong hand thumb to the slide release. I've standardized on using my weak hand thumb to hit the slide release. If the slide auto-forwards, I see that as a bonus manipulation that I don't need to do. If it doesn't, or I don't catch whether or not it did, I just hit the slide release anyway. No harm in hitting the slide release if the slide is already forward.


I think I posted something similar a while back, but there is a very simple reason why some guns auto-forward.

In order for the slide to cycle normally, the slide release has to stay down, and not catch the slide. Some gun designs (like the 1911 and the M&P 2.0) do this via a detent. Others, like the Glock, orginal M&P, and the P30, us a spring. The spring holds the slide release down until the stronger magazine spring in an empty mag pushes it up to engage the slide.

Keep that in mind - the slide release spring is pulling in the down / disengage direction.

With the slide locked back, the only thing keeping the slide lock up is the friction / contact between the release and the slide. Pull the slide back, that friction / contact goes away, and the slide release is pulled back down by the spring.

When a new mag is slammed into the gun, the impact is going to move the gun a little bit. That movement will be along the angle of the grip, but we can break it down into an "up" vector and a "forward" vector. It's the latter that we're interested in.

As the frame moves forward, the slide, being heavy, is going to resist moving. If the forward vector of the mag-slamming-home-impact is strong enough, the slide's resistance to moving can compress the recoil spring slightly. It only needs to do that just enough for the slide-to-slide-release contact to be overcome by the slide release spring pulling down, and the slide release will disengage and drop the slide.

ANY gun that has a spring pulling the slide release down will auto-forward if a mag is slammed in hard enough. A lighter frame, heavier slide, stronger slide release spring, weaker recoil spring, or steeper grip angle (Glock, I'm looking in your direction) will all make it more likely.

[Mark D]

My P2000 auto-forwards a lot. I don't claim any special level of expertise, but if the slide doesn't drop automatically, I've never had a problem hitting the lever and getting back to shootong, or assessing, or whatever's required. Different strokes I supoose.

[HopetonBrown]

I've never had a problem hitting the lever and getting back to shootong, or assessing, or whatever's required. Different strokes I supoose.

I don't believe the question was whether it was humanly possible, but rather how long it took to realize it's happened and then react accordingly.

[That Guy]

ANY gun that has a spring pulling the slide release down will auto-forward if a mag is slammed in hard enough.

And as archangels post explains, inserting the magazine with a push that is at about a 45 degree angle towards the muzzle maximizes the possibility that auto-forwarding happens. Inserting the magazine this way reduces the amount of force necessary to make the gun auto-forward significantly, and in my opinion makes auto-forwarding a very repeatable and consistent behaviour - at least with the two pistols I shoot most often, a Beretta PX4 and Walther P99.

(From which follows that if you view auto-forwarding of the slide as a negative thing, taking care not to include this forward directed force vector in your magazine insertion reduces the possibility of it happening.)

[ViniVidivici]

I've had it happen a fair amount with various Glock pistols. I've never seen it as a problem. Never slowed me down.

[Default.mp3]

I don't believe the question was whether it was humanly possible, but rather how long it took to realize it's happened and then react accordingly.Reacting to it doesn't need to take any extra time, though, since you can observe it and hit the slide release while moving the gun away from your workspace and getting back to your two handed grip.

[HopetonBrown]

Reacting to it doesn't need to take any extra time, though, since you can observe it and hit the slide release while moving the gun away from your workspace and getting back to your two handed grip.I understand how the reload process works, thanks. But for a lot of dudes, something that works 95% of the time will leave them confused for a second when it doesn't work the 5% of the time.

Reminds me of how some teach an AR reload by turning the carbine to view the ejection port to ensure a double feed didn't occur, then to continue with the reload. But when a double feed actually does happen, they're already 2 steps into the reload before it registers in their brain what they actually saw.

[Default.mp3]

I understand how the reload process works, thanks. But for a lot of dudes, something that works 95% of the time will leave them confused for a second when it doesn't work the 5% of the time.Sure, but are we catering to the LCD shooters here, or assuming that the posters here are competent shooters that are willing to practice to get things right? I have certainly seen my fair share of folks fruitlessly tapping at mags to try to get the auto forward, but they generally weren't going to break 5 seconds on their reloads even if the gun had auto forwarded on insertion.

Learning to recognize that you gun hasn't auto forwarded and going to hit the slide release after making that realization is not difficult, IMO; the slide not going forward is very easy to recognize, IME, as not only is there a fairly obvious visual sign (far more so than the AR chamber check, IMO), but also a distinct lack of tactile feedback, as the slide not going forward is a quite noticeable interruption in how a reload should feel, along with the less obvious missing audio cue of the slide going forward.

[JTQ]

My question is how people are training around the issue. I release the slide by using a hand on the back of the slide and pulling rearward versus using the slide lock lever.
I would change your slide release technique to use the slide stop.

The P30 has a pretty sizable slide stop that is ambidextrous. Automatically hitting the slide release (or if you prefer the slide stop) after the mag change would ensure the slide drops and you don't have the potential of ejecting a live round as you would with your current technique if your gun should happen to autoforward and you didn't catch it.

[hufnagel]

My only possible concern is, I've deliberately trained to NOT use the slide stop to release the slide, and go for the overhand release. The reason being it's cross-platform universal, especially since i'm left handed and not a lot of handguns are ambidextrous. About the only thing I've done so far is to try and train to actually see the state of the slide after reload to determine if I need to overhand or not. I'm personally aiming for the "Student of Weapons Craft" status, and not the highest speed gamer.

[JTQ]

My only possible concern is, I've deliberately trained to NOT use the slide stop to release the slide, and go for the overhand release. The reason being it's cross-platform universal, ...
Less so if you're using a gun with a slide mounted safety/decocker.

It seems so much of the training these days is "Glock-centric". I get it since they are so popular, but some guns just beg for you to use the slide stop/slide release since they are so large and convenient (and usually faster).

People can use whatever technique they want, but using the slide stop would fix the OP's problem, without a mechanical fix to the gun.

[hufnagel]

Less so if you're using a gun with a slide mounted safety/decocker.


am I truly the only person in the universe that's NEVER had that problem with a Beretta 92?
i'm being serious about that. I've never accidentally tripped the safety on my M9-22 (can't on a 92G, so that don't really count) during all the practice I've done with that firearm, and it's extensive. I also trained my thumb to "kick" the lever every time I do a reload, so even if I did activate it deliberately to practice disengaging it, it'd be deactivated by the time I present, and the worst I'd have is a DA pull.

[HopetonBrown]

I'm personally aiming for the "Student of Weapons Craft" status, and not the highest speed gamer.

When did it arise that "powerstroking" is more tactical, and using the slide release is for gamer fagz?

"I personally am not a fan of reaching over the top of the slide. I’ve seen too many bad things happen using that technique." -Pat McNamara

Mike Pannone didn't like the power stroke method, either, among the reasons were that it crosses your limbs which is a position of weakness.

I've personally witnessed more guys screw up the overhand slide rack than I have screw up pressing the slide stop.

Stick them on a timer and when they go to pull the slide back, they won't pull it back far enough, then they go to assume their support grip, realize the slide is still back, then have to try again.

[That Guy]

The reason being it's cross-platform universal

In my opinion, shooting a handgun in general is not cross-platform universal. If you want to shoot one pistol well, there's always some tweak to your technique that you have to do to accommodate that particular make and model of pistol. It's better to just try to become as good as possible at shooting your pistol, rather than worry about shooting all the guns (that you don't even carry or own).


When did it arise that "powerstroking" is more tactical, and using the slide release is for gamer fagz?

When did Magpul start releasing DVD's? :)

[UNM1136]

Battle field pickups not withstanding, the cross platform issue a valid arguement, but not one I would press.

I try to add stress when I shoot, even if it is only against a timer.or against another shooter, or monetary pressure. I have never shot anyone, but I have pointed guns at A LOT of people, under stressful conditions where pressing the trigger, frankly, would have been easier than checking my fire for whatever reason I needed to.

I teach the power stroke, and the slide release to the people I teach. I no longer buy the gross motor skills vs fine motor skills argument (thank you Hilton and TLG). And I have, over the last 25 years interchangibly carried 5 and 6 shot revolvers, striker fired pistols of both the partially tensioned and fully tensioned types, TDA, DAO, and single action conditions one, three, and four. Ten minutes of dry fire and I am acclimated to my platform of the day. I have never had to do more than acclimate to the handgun of the day. I also have no problem going from strong side hip, AIWB, 4 o'clock OWB/IWB, SOB, crossdraw and shoulder holster. Traditional tactical think would say that I am AFU. I also put partially depleted magazines back in mag pouches rather a pocket after a tac load. Not only am I gonna get kilt on da streetz, I am likely going to Hell for such blasphemy.

Can I honestly say that I can't screw up? Nope. Do I think my way is ideal for everyone? Nope. Do I think I am a special unicorn of the gun world? Nope.

What I do think is that as adaptive animals we sell ourselves short. I am absolutely willing to risk my life, the lives of those I love, and the lives of those I am charged to protect, on being able draw, fire, and manipulate various guns I am familiar with from any position I may be carrying.

All that said, south paws need to make things work for themselves. There is a saying among firearms instructors about the wrong handed....

pat

[Erick Gelhaus]

Not sure if it's a L/H thing or more related to how I reload, but every pistol I have been issued or carried has auto forwarded at least as often as not - except for the M&P 2.0s.

Anyway, when the slide doesn't go forward on its own after I've seated the magazine, I'll get it back in battery on my own. How do I know? By feel &/or seeing its still back. Once either of those indicators I go for the slide or the ambi slide stop depending on the pistol.

[2xAGM114]

Thanks all for the responses. Dryfire has yielded some good results. Will keep at it.

[2xAGM114]

"I personally am not a fan of reaching over the top of the slide. I’ve seen too many bad things happen using that technique." -Pat McNamara


I've personally witnessed more guys screw up the overhand slide rack than I have screw up pressing the slide stop.

Stick them on a timer and when they go to pull the slide back, they won't pull it back far enough, then they go to assume their support grip, realize the slide is still back, then have to try again.

Shack. "Short-stroking" is a real thing for me on the P30sk, not on the full sized P30 as yet. Often enough that I wouldn't want to F with it in a self defense scenario. I've since returned to the slide release.