quickest/cheapest route to USPSA PCC from where I am now

[rob_s]

I currently have a 9mm SBR that is set up for Colt mags and the upper has a 6-8" barrel (I honestly can't remember) with a handguard that extends over the suppressor. It also wears an old diamond reticule Eotech that has no batteries but I'm not sure if it works anyway.

The cheapest route, but likely the most fiddle-fart, would likely be to just get a new handguard, remove the can, and shoot the upper/gun/optic I have, but I really don't want to sink the time into all that, and I'm looking for an easy-button, even if it costs more money. Of course, I'd prefer not to sink another $1k into this endeavor either as I'll probably only make the time to shoot the thing a couple of times a year.

Issues with current setup:

As I understand it, suppressors are a no-go for USPSA PCC, so I'm trying to sort out the "easy button" to getting something I can go shoot. I can't just take the can off as it would leave the handguard extending past the muzzle which for me is a no-go.
the optic probably isn't viable, and likely isn't worth chasing around after to try and make it so.



For issue 1, is there a known-good, relatively inexpensive but still relatively reliable, upper that I can just drop on to the SBR lower that I have? I don't care too much if the new upper is an SBR but it might be kinda nice if it was given that I already have the lower.


For issue 2, is there a known-good, relatively inexpensive, optic & mount that I can get to attach to the new upper?

current carbine, complete setup
39523


suppressor removed
39524

[rob_s]

This would seem to be the cheapest route (https://www.samson-mfg.com/evolution-series-standard.html), but I'm not sure even the 7" version would be short enough. Theoretically though I could just detach the current handguard and drop this one in it's place, and shoot the matches unsuppressed.

of course, for how often I actually shoot any of this, I could also probably just take my current handguard to the workshop and lop off the requisite amount...

[Dan_S]

http://fidelisfirearms.com/2011/01/03/colt-9mm-10-5/

[Norville]

Taccom makes a screw on barrel extension. The idea being 9mm doesn’t gain anything out of a 16” barrel. It’s intended to be pinned and welded, but in your case not necessary.

https://taccom3g.com/product/light-weight-barrel-extension/

[rob_s]

Taccom makes a screw on barrel extension. The idea being 9mm doesn’t gain anything out of a 16” barrel. It’s intended to be pinned and welded, but in your case not necessary.

https://taccom3g.com/product/light-weight-barrel-extension/

Not a bad idea. If it attached to my yhm flash hider suppressor mount it would be great.

I just don’t want to completely give up the suppressed 9mm function.

[Norville]

At one time they would do custom work, but probably too busy now.

Magpul hand stop kit to keep your hand behind the muzzle?

It may affect your stance, but that’s all that I’ve got short and of a new upper.

[olstyn]

The idea being 9mm doesn’t gain anything out of a 16” barrel.

Admittedly kind of off topic for this thread, but how much experimenting has been done with slower powders in 16" PCCs? I imagine that N320 or Titegroup is completely done burning in the first few inches of barrel, and after that, you're just losing velocity to friction, but something like 3N38, AA#7, etc., that people use loading 9mm major might stand to gain from the longer barrel. I feel like it would be amusing to be slinging 100-grain bullets at 1300 FPS for 130 PF, if such a thing is possible. :)

[rob_s]

Looks like PSA is having a sale. Might be the easiest way to go...

https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-gen4-16-9mm-nitride-1-10-13-5-lightweight-m-lok-railed-upper-with-bcg-ch-5165449632.html

[Chuck Whitlock]

Taccom makes a screw on barrel extension. The idea being 9mm doesn’t gain anything out of a 16” barrel. It’s intended to be pinned and welded, but in your case not necessary.

https://taccom3g.com/product/light-weight-barrel-extension/


Not a bad idea. If it attached to my yhm flash hider suppressor mount it would be great.

I just don’t want to completely give up the suppressed 9mm function.

I was thinking of a faux suppressor, but that would work, too.

[HCM]

Re: your optic-

EoTech does not repair pre-2009 optics but if you contact them you can send the dead/defective optic in for credit allowing you to purchase any new EoTech Holographic sight via their website at 50% off.

I just did this with my 2007 vintage 552 after the window began to de-laminate.

[andre3k]

Your setup is fine for PCC except for the can / barrel length issue. I would just swap in a longer barrel, screw a brake on, and maybe a trigger if you need if you need it. Optic is pure personal preference in this situation.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

[rob_s]

Your setup is fine for PCC except for the can / barrel length issue.
Yes, precisely why I’m asking about the easiest way to correct for that.


I would just swap in a longer barrel, screw a brake on, and maybe a trigger if you need if you need it.
That is way more fiddle fuck than I’m interested in. I was looking more for the “yhm has a fake can that you can attach to your mount” or “psa is having a sale in complete uppers and you can drop one right on your gun for just $320 right now”.


Optic is pure personal preference in this situation.
Let’s assume I don’t know enough about the current state of the bargain optic market to have a “personal preference”.

[andre3k]

Yes, precisely why I’m asking about the easiest way to correct for that.


That is way more fiddle fuck than I’m interested in. I was looking more for the “yhm has a fake can that you can attach to your mount” or “psa is having a sale in complete uppers and you can drop one right on your gun for just $320 right now”.


Let’s assume I don’t know enough about the current state of the bargain optic market to have a “personal preference”.


A barrel swap is 30 mins of effort. Not much fiddle fuck to it, especially on a 9mm, you don't have a gas system to deal with. Take your chance with a PSA complete upper and trust their guys assembled it right, but since you want to keep suppressed SBR as an option it might be a decent choice.

Then buy a Holosun 510C, or any Holosun dot. Done.

[rob_s]

A barrel swap is 30 mins of effort. Not much fiddle fuck to it, especially on a 9mm, you don't have a gas system to deal with.
I've done it dozens of times, and no it's not, but I tend to measure my time differently than most people, from getting up out of my chair to being actually done and back to doing something I really wanted to be doing int he first place, and in my case there's at least a half an hour of digging around trying to find the tools I know I have somewhere. That phase of my life is well past.


Then buy a Holosun 510C, or any Holosun dot. Done.
that's good to know, and consistent with things i'm reading elsewhere. thanks!

[SteveB]

PM sent on the upper. I use and like the Holosun 510C-GR.

[mmc45414]

It is my understanding that the reason for no suppressors is issues with the timers, and I wonder if the fake cans might redirect the sound enough to be a challenge for the timers. Just speculating, based on how quiet my 16" 9mm is.

[rob_s]

It is my understanding that the reason for no suppressors is issues with the timers, and I wonder if the fake cans might redirect the sound enough to be a challenge for the timers. Just speculating, based on how quiet my 16" 9mm is.

I used to shoot a local steel match with this upper, and there was definitely an issue with the timer picking up. I liked it, because it meant I got to shoot more. :cool:

It's definitely possible to pick it up, but it's all about timer placement, which is easy at static steel and not so much at run-n-gun.

ETA, video.

https://youtu.be/azSXz8VKbhI

[rob_s]

Went out today and hung around the range for a uspsa classifier. I think I figured out the easiest/shortest route...

Since time is the issue here, and I'm tied up for pretty much every weekend for the rest of my natural life between kids/work/travel/etc., there's no real reason to get hasty. I "need" a new optic for the gun anyway, so I'll do that first. then it needs to be zeroed (when I have no idea) and I can do that with the can and handguard I have now, and also make note of the shift, if any, with and without the can. Then if I actually get the chance to shoot in a match, take the chop saw to the existing handguard, and go shoot the match with the 7" barrel I have now.

[ranger]

I have two PSA "AR9s". I have an early "AR9" that uses Colt mags - it works, eats every kind of 9mm I feed it, and locks back when empty. I have a new "AR9" that uses Glock mags - it works, eats every type of 9mm I feed it, does NOT lock back on empty mags.

I would get a cheap PSA AR9 16 inch upper to use with your existing lower and mags. Make sure the PSA upper will work with the Colt style SMG mags. Add the RDS of your choice - I am using a very old TASCO PDP3 on mine because it was in the basement and works.

[rob_s]

I would get a cheap PSA AR9 16 inch upper to use with your existing lower and mags.

Curious about the 16"...

I've read a few differing opinions on this here and there, but the primary reason for going 16" seems to be not dealing with NFA, which I've already done, so is there another benefit?

I got a chance to half-assed shoot another guy's gun on an old stage yesterday after the match, and in running that stage I could see some advantages to the maneuverability of the shorter barrel on stages designed for pistols particularly.

[ranger]

Curious about the 16"...

I've read a few differing opinions on this here and there, but the primary reason for going 16" seems to be not dealing with NFA, which I've already done, so is there another benefit?

I got a chance to half-assed shoot another guy's gun on an old stage yesterday after the match, and in running that stage I could see some advantages to the maneuverability of the shorter barrel on stages designed for pistols particularly.

I enjoy shooting my SIG MPX 8 inch SBR; so, yes - if you already have the NFA settled you may want a shorter upper. PSA has a 10.5 inch 9mm upper on sale (of course!) for $320 for 4th of July.

[Clusterfrack]

I have to post this somewhere, so I'll put it in this thread. At a local USPSA match yesterday, we had three PCC shooters on our squad. It slowed things down quite a bit, due to fooling with cases, flags, and other issues. I got swept by one shooter as she was trying to bag her PCC. Then that same shooter DQed by breaking the safe angle because navigating USPSA stages with a long gun is challenging.

Another shooter had a carbine built from JP parts, and it would not run for more than 5 or 10 shots at a time without a major malfunction. This wasn't surprising to me because most of the AR-related malfunctions I've witnessed have involved JP parts or guns.

So, do I wish PCC weren't a thing in USPSA? Yes. Yes I do.

[rob_s]

I have to post this somewhere, so I'll put it in this thread. At a local USPSA match yesterday, we had three PCC shooters on our squad. It slowed things down quite a bit, due to fooling with cases, flags, and other issues. I got swept by one shooter as she was trying to bag her PCC. Then that same shooter DQed by breaking the safe angle because navigating USPSA stages with a long gun is challenging.

Another shooter had a carbine built from JP parts, and it would not run for more than 5 or 10 shots at a time without a major malfunction. This wasn't surprising to me because most of the AR-related malfunctions I've witnessed have involved JP parts or guns.

So, do I wish PCC weren't a thing in USPSA? Yes. Yes I do.

I can certainly understand the frustration, and I've witnessed the issues and even been annoyed by them myself since I used to shoot handgun and rifle at steel matches many years ago (never both in the same match, which frankly can be another complaint).

first the easy part...
malfunctions are a thing no matter what, and frankly they should be dealt with the same way no matter what. I don't know how to be "fair" about it since USPSA is so into range lawyering, but multiple malfs should equal a dq.

for the harder part...
nobody wants to admit it, but slings are a big part of the answer. I ran a carbine match for many years where we shot USPSA-style stages and we discussed and tested bagging, racks at the stage, and slings, and ultimately slings proved time and again to be the only way to go. Rifle slung in the safe area, muzzle down, in front of your body, ejection port out, flag inserted. control your muzzle when you bend or stoop, failure to do so gets you ejected.

for the hardest part...
some people shouldn't be allowed to shoot at all, let a lone long guns, on action stages. Because of the issues we saw in the millenial age (I should be allowed to do anything I want!), we implemented a qualification process for our matches. A few times a year we had people shoot a qual if they wanted to be able to come out and shoot with us, and sometimes we'd qual a new shooter right on the spot. It involved shooting at a target which was ultimately un-scored (but if too many misses were noted we'd refuse to pass the shooter). We required standing, kneeling, prone, reloads, and transition to handgun (I think). It kept out the riffraff and, like a lot of tests, kept a lot of the idiots from ever even showing up.

[olstyn]

I have to post this somewhere, so I'll put it in this thread. At a local USPSA match yesterday, we had three PCC shooters on our squad. It slowed things down quite a bit, due to fooling with cases, flags, and other issues. I got swept by one shooter as she was trying to bag her PCC. Then that same shooter DQed by breaking the safe angle because navigating USPSA stages with a long gun is challenging.

How did she have the opportunity to DQ for something else *after* sweeping you? She should have been DQed right then.

[ST911]

Another shooter had a carbine built from JP parts, and it would not run for more than 5 or 10 shots at a time without a major malfunction. This wasn't surprising to me because most of the AR-related malfunctions I've witnessed have involved JP parts or guns.



malfunctions are a thing no matter what, and frankly they should be dealt with the same way no matter what. I don't know how to be "fair" about it since USPSA is so into range lawyering, but multiple malfs should equal a dq.

On my wish-list... # of stoppages (TBD) during a stage results in a DQ for that division entry. But I'm a snob that shoots guns and ammo that work.

[Clusterfrack]

How did she have the opportunity to DQ for something else *after* sweeping you? She should have been DQed right then.

I wasn’t the RO, so I didn’t have the power to DQ. Also, the way the PCC “safety table” was set up made it ambiguous where you could point the muzzle.

[olstyn]

I wasn’t the RO, so I didn’t have the power to DQ. Also, the way the PCC “safety table” was set up made it ambiguous where you could point the muzzle.

Fair enough, but having seen enough people do it at matches, what's difficult about flag it, muzzle up, walk that way to the safety table and bag it there? Edit: Or do you mean she somehow swept you from the safety table? (If so, ick, poor setup choices!)

[Clusterfrack]

Fair enough, but having seen enough people do it at matches, what's difficult about flag it, muzzle up, walk that way to the safety table and bag it there? Edit: Or do you mean she somehow swept you from the safety table? (If so, ick, poor setup choices!)

She swept me from the PCC bench, which was not an official safety area. Her gun was turned fully around and aimed downrange where targets were being reset. I hate staring down a rifle barrel.

The PCC rules are completely random. Uncase at the berm, some random bench with inadequate backstop, wherefuckingever apparently.

[bofe954]

She swept me from the PCC bench, which was not an official safety area. Her gun was turned fully around and aimed downrange where targets were being reset. I hate staring down a rifle barrel.

The PCC rules are completely random. Uncase at the berm, some random bench with inadequate backstop, wherefuckingever apparently.

Not sure what is random:

10.5 Match Disqualification –Unsafe Gun Handling

10.5.19 Failing to point the muzzle of a PCC at a side berm or back stop during casing/uncasing or removing/replacing on a conveyance or sweeping any person with the muzzle of a PCC, whether loaded or not, even if a chamber flag is inserted. Side berms/backstops may be used for casing and uncasing or removing from/placing on conveyances only. All other gun handling with the PCC, e.g., sight pictures, turning dots on/off, etc., must be accomplished in a safety area or under the direct supervision of a Range Officer. The berm/backstop is not required while removing/returning a properly flagged PCC from/to a vehicle providing all other safety rules are followed.

[Clusterfrack]

Thanks for posting that. I'm not complaining about the already clear rules about muzzling someone. It's the casing/uncasing at a "berm" or "back stop" that causes problems.

How high does the berm need to be?
How close to muzzling people is ok when uncasing?
Does the backstop need to be bulletproof?
What exactly does "inserted" mean for a chamber flag?

I've seen a very wide range of procedures, and many of them made me uncomfortable. Interestingly, 3-gun shooters are virtually unanimous about this not being a problem in any way. However, I do not think different safety procedures should be applied to USPSA for PCC vs. handguns.


Not sure what is random:

10.5 Match Disqualification –Unsafe Gun Handling

10.5.19 Failing to point the muzzle of a PCC at a side berm or back stop during casing/uncasing or removing/replacing on a conveyance or sweeping any person with the muzzle of a PCC, whether loaded or not, even if a chamber flag is inserted. Side berms/backstops may be used for casing and uncasing or removing from/placing on conveyances only. All other gun handling with the PCC, e.g., sight pictures, turning dots on/off, etc., must be accomplished in a safety area or under the direct supervision of a Range Officer. The berm/backstop is not required while removing/returning a properly flagged PCC from/to a vehicle providing all other safety rules are followed.

[bofe954]

How high does the berm need to be? The berm is your range's berm, it is how high the range's berm is, not an anthill in the middle of the bay
How close to muzzling people is ok when uncasing? How close to 180 is OK? If someone is muzzled it's a DQ, if not it isn't.
Does the backstop need to be bulletproof? the backstop is your range's backstop, is your range's backstop bulletproof?
What exactly does "inserted" mean for a chamber flag? It's either in or out, if they are muzzling someone it doesn't matter, if they are walking around not shooting it needs to be there. It gets removed at make ready and inserted at hammer down.


8.3.7.3 If the gun proves to be clear, the competitor must holster/flag his firearm. A carbine must then be transported with the muzzle reasonably vertically up or down,while scoring is done, and then off the stage to a rack or case. Flagged carbines may also be cased at this time and transported off the stage in the case. When casing PCC’s, the muzzle must point at a side berm or backstop. Failure to point the muzzle at a side berm or back stop during casing will result in a DQ per 10.5.19

Here's definition of a berm for you:

Berm- A raised structure of sand, soil, or other materials used to contain bullets and/or to separate one shooting bay and/or COF from another.

I'm not at your match, but "PCC bench" and people muzzling each other without getting DQ'd sounds more like a nobody knows and enforces the rules issue than a USPSA PCC issue. The rulebook is online, I'm not going to paste the whole thing here.

I'ev shot a couple 4 stage local matches with a PCC, but for the record, I don't care if PCC exists or not. Since it does, and I don't want to get muzzled either, it makes sense to know the rules and enforce them. If there are problems with your match, talk to who runs it about the rules. If that doesn't work have your area director talk to them, or talk to someone at NROI.

Are there RO classes offered in the area? Are the people who run matches RO's? Are you an RO? Can you help them run a safe match?

[Clusterfrack]

bofe954, I can see how you might get the impression that the club is at fault for not enforcing the rules. That's not the case at all. This club hosts Level 2 and Level 3 matches, and has a NROI Range Master / RM Instructor. The MD has his act together, and was on my squad when all this happened.

The problem is with poorly written PCC rules and inadequate safe areas for PCCs.

Handguns can only be handled in a safe area, which typically include a table with the safe direction and boundaries clearly shown.

As you can see from the definition of berm in A3 that you posted above, a berm can be simply a separator between bays rather than a hard bulletproof barrier. This leads to people uncasing and handling their PCCs with muzzle pointed down at a low berm while people are visible directly behind the berm. This isn't against the rules, but it should be.

Chamber flags for PCC don't have to be actually in the chamber. This means that people can use any object that holds the bolt out of battery as a chamber flag.

So, we have PCC shooters handling their guns in places that weren't designed as safe areas, with muzzles close to sweeping people, without direct supervision of an RO, and without a chamber flag that prevents a round from being in the chamber. That's not a solid safety protocol.

I'll add a story to underscore this. My buddy was shooting his PCC at a match, and when he finished a stage he dropped the mag, racked the bolt, dropped the bolt, and pulled the trigger. BANG. DQ. His extractor had jumped the case rim and left a round in the chamber. Without a true chamber flag, he would have been one RO mistake (forgetting to say 'hammer down' before saying 'flag') away from walking around with a chambered round in his PCC. This makes me cringe, thinking about how inadequate the berm procedure is.

On the other hand, if I somehow come off a stage with a round in my handgun's chamber, there are only two places I would be handing that gun: a safety area with hardened backstop, or at the next stage where an RO would be there to DQ me.

[bofe954]

bofe954, I can see how you might get the impression that the club is at fault for not enforcing the rules. That's not the case at all. This club hosts Level 2 and Level 3 matches, and has a NROI Range Master / RM Instructor. The MD has his act together, and was on my squad when all this happened.

If the MD was on your squad, you were swept, and the shooter was not DQ'd, the MD made a mistake, period, read the rule. There is no exemption for muzzling someone with a PCC

The problem is with poorly written PCC rules and inadequate safe areas for PCCs.

Handguns can only be handled in a safe area, which typically include a table with the safe direction and boundaries clearly shown.

As you can see from the definition of berm in A3 that you posted above, a berm can be simply a separator between bays rather than a hard bulletproof barrier. This leads to people uncasing and handling their PCCs with muzzle pointed down at a low berm while people are visible directly behind the berm. This isn't against the rules, but it should be.

Chamber flags for PCC don't have to be actually in the chamber. This means that people can use any object that holds the bolt out of battery as a chamber flag.

So, we have PCC shooters handling their guns in places that weren't designed as safe areas, with muzzles close to sweeping people, without direct supervision of an RO, and without a chamber flag that prevents a round from being in the chamber. That's not a solid safety protocol.

I'll add a story to underscore this. My buddy was shooting his PCC at a match, and when he finished a stage he dropped the mag, racked the bolt, dropped the bolt, and pulled the trigger. BANG. DQ. His extractor had jumped the case rim and left a round in the chamber. Without a true chamber flag, he would have been one RO mistake (forgetting to say 'hammer down' before saying 'flag') away from walking around with a chambered round in his PCC. This makes me cringe, thinking about how inadequate the berm procedure is.

I have seen the same thing happen with pistols, the shooter needs to see an empty chamber, that's why RO's tell people to slow down during unload and show clear. If the shooter is irresponsible, it doesn't matter what kind of gun they have.

On the other hand, if I somehow come off a stage with a round in my handgun's chamber, there are only two places I would be handing that gun: a safety area with hardened backstop, or at the next stage where an RO would be there to DQ me.

From the rule I posted above "Side berms/backstops may be used for casing and uncasing or removing from/placing on conveyances only. All other gun handling with the PCC, e.g., sight pictures, turning dots on/off, etc., must be accomplished in a safety area or under the direct supervision of a Range Officer."

There is no handling, you remove the PCC from the case, chamber flag is in it. You then point the barrel straight up or straight down. If there is a round next to the chamber flag it will be there until the RO tells you to make ready, at which point it will be found and you will DQ. After the hammer down flag is back in, PCC walked back to the berm and cased. The only time anyone should be messing with a bolt, dryfiring, messing with a dot is in the safety area. Same as pistol. Read the rule. Your berm situation sounds odd to me, but if they uncase into a berm and muzzle someone tipping up the PCC they are still DQ'd. If I were uncasing on your range, I'd want to make sure no one could get in front of my muzzle while I was uncasing.

I'm really not trying to be a condescending asshole about this, but getting muzzled at a match is pretty much the definition of "problem with the match" especially if nothing is being done to fix it. It isn't PCC's fault, the rules are clear.

[Clusterfrack]

I don't want to sidetrack this thread anymore than we already have. To answer your points: MD didn't see me get swept. I dealt with that myself in a conversation with the shooter. I made the call not to ask that she be DQed for something only I saw. We disagree about whether PCC uncasing at the berm is unsafe. I think it is, and have made my opinion clear to the MD. He agrees with me--even as a PCC shooter, but the rules are what they are. The berms at this range are similar to what I've seen at many other ranges that host USPSA. They are tall toward the targets, and not-so-tall near the back.

[jandbj]

This would seem to be the cheapest route (https://www.samson-mfg.com/evolution-series-standard.html), but I'm not sure even the 7" version would be short enough. Theoretically though I could just detach the current handguard and drop this one in it's place, and shoot the matches unsuppressed.

of course, for how often I actually shoot any of this, I could also probably just take my current handguard to the workshop and lop off the requisite amount...

https://www.samson-mfg.com/sx-m-lok-series-7-handguard-clearance.html
Same barrel nut, perhaps?
https://www.kakindustry.com/ar-15-parts/upper-parts/barrels/kak-industry-slim-flash-can

[rob_s]

Still kinda trying to figure this out (pre-new years resolution is to get to some matches next year).

Option 1: get a 10.5" (https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-gen4-10-5-9mm-1-10-nitride-9-lightweight-m-lok-railed-upper-with-bcg-ch-5165449633.html) upper and one new optic (current optic is dead) and just take the can on/off for matches

upside is least amount of added junk in the house (I'd try to sell or give away the current 7" upper)
downsides would be potential zero shift when I want to go from shooting 'coons in the yard to shooting cardboard and steel at the range



Option 2: get a 12 (https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-pa-9-gen4-10-5-9mm-1-10-nitride-12-slanted-m-lok-railed-upper-with-bcg-ch-5165449744.html)-16" (https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-gen4-16-9mm-nitride-1-10-13-5-lightweight-m-lok-railed-upper-with-bcg-ch-5165449632.html?avad=252061_e17cbda69&utm_source=Avantlink&utm_medium=Referral&utm_campaign=ale) upper and a new optic for both uppers and just swap the uppers back and forth

upside is having a more dedicated solution for each application
downside is primarily cost, plus just genera bulk
also, what is that abortion on the muzzle of the 12"?

[ranger]

I would go with 2 uppers and optimize each for the "dedicated" task.

[p7fl]

OP:
I took an Aimpoint H-2 off a backup 223 Colt that was zeroed for 50 yards. With NO adjustments it zeroed at 30 yards on a Colt 9. If you are going to shoot USPSA, action steel or SC picking a zero is preference, not a fixed rule. 30 was fine with me and I went back and forth with the H-2 until I found a dedicated Aimpoint.
As far as a SBR goes, look around at matches…very few people use SBRs. If it made any significant difference all the shooters would be E-filing

[rob_s]

Decided that (a) the timing of these events makes is relatively unlikely I'll get to one soon, but that I'd like to have a gun I *could* shoot in one if the need arises. Also decided that one gun/upper is better than two, and since my real "need" is homestead critter control it's more important to have the can mounted.

https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-gen4-10-5-9mm-1-10-nitride-9-lightweight-m-lok-railed-upper-with-bcg-ch-5165449633.html

All of which led me to just now place the order for the 1.05" PSA upper. Optic TBD.

[rob_s]

Looking at replacement optics, keeping in mind my "dual purpose" usage. it appears that the C-More (https://www.amazon.com/C-MORE-Systems-Tactical-Railway-Aluminum/dp/B00D4L67D6/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_2?dchild=1&keywords=c-more%2Bpolymer%2B6moa&qid=1579519751&s=sporting-goods&sr=1-2-fkmr0&th=1&psc=1) is the optic of b=choice for gaming, followed by the Holosun 510C (https://www.amazon.com/HOLOSUN-510C-Elite-HE510C-GR/dp/B079PH36FX). Given that I'm going to be using this for critter control, and then hopefully some games, would the latter be a slightly more "robust" or otherwise better or more flexible option for home use?

They seem to be around the same price. I wouldn't be buying a new optic at all if the one currently on the gun wasn't totally dead.

[jbrimlow]

Adjustment on the Holosun is way better. The Cmore doesn't have any clicks or anything, so zeroing it is a pain. Once it's set, it works.

Pretty sure battery life is better on the Holosun too. Anyway, I'd tell you to go Holosun, and would probably only use Cmores if I had some lying around.

[ranger]

I like my old school C More on my SIG MPX PCC.

[Clusterfrack]

Looking at replacement optics, keeping in mind my "dual purpose" usage. it appears that the C-More (https://www.amazon.com/C-MORE-Systems-Tactical-Railway-Aluminum/dp/B00D4L67D6/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_2?dchild=1&keywords=c-more%2Bpolymer%2B6moa&qid=1579519751&s=sporting-goods&sr=1-2-fkmr0&th=1&psc=1) is the optic of b=choice for gaming, followed by the Holosun 510C (https://www.amazon.com/HOLOSUN-510C-Elite-HE510C-GR/dp/B079PH36FX). Given that I'm going to be using this for critter control, and then hopefully some games, would the latter be a slightly more "robust" or otherwise better or more flexible option for home use?

They seem to be around the same price. I wouldn't be buying a new optic at all if the one currently on the gun wasn't totally dead.

We have a lot of PCC shooters, including 2 GMs, who use Trijicon MROs. Some shooters also have a 2nd RDS on an angle mount.

I wouldn't use a C-More if you gave me one. I had one on an Open gun before I sold it, and it was poorly made, hard to zero, didn't hold zero, had poor battery life, and was not in any way water resistant. Relatively few people around here use them anymore, even for Open. Sorry ranger... I really hate them.

[rob_s]

Got the upper mounted, and all the parts swapped over. Pretty happy in general, even if it did add about 4" to the overall length suppressed.

Issue I'm having now is that my Colt mags are requiring a hard slap to seat, and don't drop free. This is bolt-forward, mags fully loaded or downloaded, doesn't matter.

Just to reitterate, this is the upper I bought, with the understaning that it works with Colt mags/lowers. The previous RRA upper that was on this lower had no issues. The lower is an Anvil arms registered SBR with permanent magwell block.

https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-gen4-10-5-9mm-1-10-nitride-9-lightweight-m-lok-railed-upper-with-bcg-ch-5165449633.html

47707


47708


previous upper with can attached
47709

[rob_s]

Might also be of interest to see the "competition" configuration. Old upper shown beside it for comparison. This is before I moved the FH/suppressor-mount over.

47724

[p7fl]

It doesn't change the need for an extra push on insertion but try using magpuls on the mag, they offer a better grip and take out some of the sting when hitting the base. Cost is about $3.00 each.

[rob_s]

Got some more fiddle-fart time. Tried inserting on an open bolt and still had an issue, albeit slightly less of one, getting the mag to seat. The issue appears to be that they got cute with the internals of the upper. You can see where the mag is already wearing on the aluminum (the upper is still un-fired).

I thought I had a pinned mag block but now that I look at the lower it appears that I do not (see second pic, no pins, no set screw, maybe just held in with mag catch?). Maybe there's a way to adjust the block lower? Right now my plan is to take a dremel to the wear spot in the upper...

48482

48483

[rob_s]

Got the laser and optic mounted, along with al, the plastic bits and whatnot. So it’s “done”, pending reso,union to the mag seating issue and any adjustments made after shooting.

Coon mode, wherein the laser would be the primary sighting device
48665


Gamer mode, wherein the Holosun would be the primary sighting device
48666


And yes, the light does intrude into the sight picture, but in looking through it and focusing down range, it seems pretty much a non-issue. I *may* wind up trying to find a way to raise the optic.
48667

[GJM]

The TLR-8 is blocking too much of your downrange view for gaming use. I, and a number of friends, use the cheesy Crimson Trace rail mounted green laser which is very small by comparison.

[rob_s]

The TLR-8 is blocking too much of your downrange view for gaming use. I, and a number of friends, use the cheesy Crimson Trace rail mounted green laser which is very small by comparison.

that's what I'm figuring.

Funnily enough, I suspect that had I gone with a T-1 sized optic on a lower 1/3 mount I likely wouldn't see the light body at all, or certainly far less of it.

This gun has to work for coons first, and (seemingly ever less likely) gaming opportunities second, so I may leave it as-is for the moment. I don't want to lose the light/laser, and I don't want to have to take it on and off, and I don't think i want to go to a 45* offset for the laser... Doesn't leave me a lot of options just yet, but I'm confident I can get it figured out once I get to shoot it.

[rob_s]

Did some more fiddling with the PCC just now in anticipation of getting to shoot a match on 5/31. Found a ton of mags, some of them pre-loaded, a LULA (thank god), chamber flag, and even found a custom Cane and Derby mag pouch (I shouldn’t need more than one, right?)

Looks like mags seat fine with bolt to the rear, or no bolt at all, but damn near refuse to seat with the bolt forward, although they will with a good smack.

Remind me, do we lube the snot out of 9mm ARs like we do the big boys or do we run them dry?

Bore-sighted the Holosun and the laser at about 20ft in my work shop, about 3-4” high at that distance. My guess is that will get me through the match if I can’t get out to formally zero. If I do, what do we like for laser and optic zeros for PCC?

Did a brief function check in the yard with the can on just now. Few rounds of BVAC 147, a few rounds of AE 124, and a few rounds from my miscellaneous can that includes steel cased wolf, aluminum cased I dunno what, and a mix of various brass cased. When firing the first round of BVAC I got a pretty nasty failure to eject that required tools to clear, but after that zero issues. Pick of stuck case below.

54557

[p7fl]

At that club, the generic ready position is, rifle butt on hip, strong hand at side, rifle held by off-side hand.
You can aim a laser at the 1st target and fire on the beep. No need to raise PCC to the shoulder.
Stages run about 23 rounds so carrying one emergency mag should be fine.
If not, I don't want to be on the range :-)
Also, I have extra TF +10 extensions if you want to go to 40 rounds on start.

[rob_s]

Shot the match today. 8 stages, pretty fun.

Too many malfunctions! After the first couple of stages had at least one double feed per stage, sometimes more. Anyone have recommendations on anything I can or should check? I shot BVAC 147 grain pretty much exclusive, all thought Colt steel 32 round mags.

Scores
https://practiscore.com/results/new/108426

[ranger]

Are you having issues with 124 FMJs? Have you tried 115 FMJs?

[rob_s]

Are you having issues with 124 FMJs? Have you tried 115 FMJs?

other than a dozen or so rounds into the dirt, the only ammo I've really put through the new upper in any quantity was the 147 grain BVAC I show in the match yesterday. Somewhere on the order of 200 rounds yesterday. No issues for the first 3 stages (75 rounds or so), and then started having problems pretty much every stage thereafter.

[rob_s]

Just a quick personal update, I shot a match yesterday with exclusively 115 and 124 grain ammo, and the gun ran like a top. Half the match was even some old Blazer that I was a little hesitant to use but it ran "flawlessly".

[rob_s]

Another update...

Shot another match yesterday. Managed to shoot all but one stage with the old Blaser I shot last month and it ran great. I think it may be 115 grain.

I shot one stage with a mag of brass-cased ammo that I’m pretty sure is 147 grain and had one malf. Non-diagnostic clearing in the. Idle of the stage means I don’t know exactly what the problem was.

If we weren’t dealing within these ammo shortages I’d likely just order some 115 blaser since I know that works, but (a) no idea when that may be doable, (b) I really prefer 147 in my Glock’s so hate having to keep two different ammo types in the same caliber, (c) I have about 1k in 147 grain on hand and just got 500 rounds of 124 federal.

I guess I’ll try the 124 next month since I have it and am out of the Blaser now.

[GJM]

I think it is great that you are shooting matches again. Something to consider might be whether you should shoot Carry Optics in USPSA, and reserve PCC for Steel Challenge, since pistol skills allow you to shoot the carbine, but not necessarily vice versa.

[rob_s]

I think it is great that you are shooting matches again. Something to consider might be whether you should shoot Carry Optics in USPSA, and reserve PCC for Steel Challenge, since pistol skills allow you to shoot the carbine, but not necessarily vice versa.

I kinda want to get there eventually, but I’m not really in it for the skills development. Right now my schedule freed up to allow me one Sunday afternoon a month, and the action steel “outlaw” match is really fun without a lot of work.

At some point I intend to give the pistol a go again, but I’ll probably sign up for a paper USPSA match for the handgun since paper misses aren’t quite as embarrassing. ;) :o

I’m also not willing to make time in the schedule right now for practice, although if I plan to get back on the pistol train I’ll, probably at least interrupt my morning coffee routine for some dry fire, particularly draws, reloads, and presentations and transitions, with a little trigger work mixed in.

The PCC has allowed me to get into the game with very low barrier, minimal gear (one of the things I love about sporting clays AND PCC is the minimal gear and nothing on my belt/waist, and confidence-building ease of hits. Albeit probably also building in some sloppy fundamentals that I’m not too worried about right now.

Trying to get the wife signed up for one of Randy’s ladies only classes because if I can get her interested in pistol games (she already shoots clays) that’ll increase my trigger time (although also increase my costs...). I’m looking to join the range where we shoot matches and clays because I *think* members can rent the bays unsupervised.

[GJM]

My biggest performance gain to date, came from my wife starting to shoot matches.

[olstyn]

My biggest performance gain to date, came from my wife starting to shoot matches.

That's VERY easy to believe. Having an enthusiastic training partner simply must be a huge asset.

[rob_s]

Zeroing my PCC finally today.

Finding the Holosun not to be bright enough, sadly.

Also getting an odd repeated marking on every case. I’m presuming it’s nothing to worry about since the gun is running fine.

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80916