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GJM
06-25-2019, 10:35 PM
I started shooting USPSA Carry Optics (CO) in 2016, shortly after it became a provisional division, and thought I would share some of my experiences with various pistols.

Prior to 2016, I had shot a red dot off and on, was pleased with it on harder shots, never quite satisfied up close, and generally ambivalent. My experience was all RMR, both on a Glock and a Sig 226. When CO came about, I decided to grab one of the new Glock Gen 4 19 MOS pistols, a DP Pro, and learn more about running a dot in USPSA. I shot the 19 for about six months, was generally pleased, but wished for a longer grip and an easier time making power factor with my loads.

Since I had been shooting a CZ Shadow 1 in Production, I tried to get a pair set up but never fully got my act together. About that time I was increasingly frustrated with the ten round magazine limit, competing in an area that was very Open and Limited oriented. PCC came along, and I decided to shoot "open long" for a while. I decided to get an Open gun, and as soon as I ordered one, USPSA switched to a 140mm magazine limit for CO. That suited me just fine, as I really didn't want to shoot Open, I wanted to shoot a facsimile of my carry gun, but with a red dot.

Late spring of 2017, I bought a Walther Q5, installed a Pro, and started shooting it. I really liked the trigger on the Walther. I respect the Glock design, but I always had a love hate relationship with the Glock trigger, and the Walther trigger was frankly exciting. As I shot the Walther more, I ran into some problems. The grip was short for me, I could only reliably get 20 or 21 rounds in the magazine, occasionally I would jar the sear and end up with a dead trigger when reloading aggressively, and the left rear corner of the Walther frame beat up the base of my thumb enough it brought pain with every shot.

That led me to try the CZ P09, which I had Primary Machine direct mill for a DP Pro. I really liked the P09, but after a month or so I ran into the problem where I could get click instead of bang on double action shots. That led me back to Glock, which is a familiar theme, every time stuff gets messed up, pull out a Glock. From July through November 2018 I shot a Gen 3/4 direct milled Glock 34. I seemed to be doing well with it, but I never loved the trigger, as it would seem like there would be shots that I didn't call that wouldn't hit where I thought they would.

I love HK pistols, and when I tried the VP9 previously, I just couldn't get used to the paddle mag release. When the VP9B came out, I decided to get one direct milled in November 2018, and work with it. From minute one, I felt like I had better trigger control with the VP9 than with the Glock. I shot that happily through March 2019, when I made the mistake of trying YVK's Shadow 2 trigger, and I started having serious trigger envy. I sent a VP9 to Lazy Wolf, and when I got it back,I was very happy with that trigger. Then the trigger broke, and I was back to a five pound OEM VP9 trigger. I got it fixed, and it broke again, and I was without a competition VP9.

With the Magnus Cup match happening, I grabbed a Gen 3 Glock 34 out of the safe,, and with two days Glock practice went to that match. I actually did fine, but I had three mikes on tight targets that I did not call. After that match, in a practice session, I got frustrated enough with some tight shots going awry, that I threw a Glock magazine through a USPSA target -- a first for me. During this time i was trying to get some Shadow 1 and 2 pistols set up, which was a royal pain, between the weight loss required for the Shadow 2,and dealing with metal gunsmiths. Another issue was I HATE cleaning guns, and the Glock, Walther and VP9 pistols were run them like lawnmower pistols.

About a month ago, I got a CZ Optics Ready P10F, threw a DP Pro on, and started working with it. It is a stock pistol, except a slightly lighter striker spring, and I have been thrilled with the pistols. I am yet to have a stoppage with any of the ones I have, and I feel like I have excellent trigger control with it. I just finished the Area 1 match over three days and 16 stages, and did not have a single mike shooting the P10 in the match. I also have a P10 Compact for carry, and I feel like, ergonomically, it is a product improved Glock 19. I just sent a slide to Primary Machine to direct mill a type 2 RMR.

For the last few months, my wife and I have been watching a friend shoot a 320 X5 with a GGI trigger, and between the weight of the pistol and the weight of the trigger, I keep telling him that it is closer to an Open gun than a CO division pistol. This morning, with Area 1 done, my wife and I got to the range with an X5 for the first real session. She was absolutely blown away, which is amazing, coming from a girl that has shot a Glock faithfully for a few decades. We will have to see what happens, but there is a reason that the 320 X5 is the most popular CO pistol now in USPSA.

YVK
06-25-2019, 11:38 PM
Shadow 2 is a sweet shooting gun but a pain in the ass to set up for CO. Doable though, just time and money. Assuming that Trijicon will make SRO worth spending money on, it is still impossible to have CZ directly milled for it. If I had to start from scratch, I'd probably go X5. Having shot X5 a little, I agree that it is a sweet shooting gun, even though I despise SIG. I don't know what current mounting pattern is for, but for everything else other than that, it is plate mounting only. Between one additional failure point, instances of plates flying off, and stripped screws, it might be the main limitation of this gun. That, and a requirement for Gray trigger, and less than optimal factory surface treatment.

JHC
06-26-2019, 05:37 AM
Very cool review. How would you compare and contrast the VP9 OEM trigger to the CZ P10 OEM trigger for your tight shots?

GJM
06-26-2019, 06:57 AM
Very cool review. How would you compare and contrast the VP9 OEM trigger to the CZ P10 OEM trigger for your tight shots?

I would say they are similar, but the P10F trigger is about a pound lighter.

The P10 has other advantages. It is available optics ready, where the VP9 has to be direct milled. It has a 4.5 inch barrel, making it easier to make power factor with lighter ammo. It is much easier to reload than the VP9, and the OEM mags hold 19 instead of 15. It is also very Glock like, from a maintenance perspective, and not subject to Enel’s mallet releasing the sear.

For combi carry/competition use, I think the P10F/C pistols are brilliant. They fit in many Glock holsters, point naturally, and do not seem subject to the “my Glock shoots left” ergonomics.

JHC
06-26-2019, 07:01 AM
I would say they are similar, but the P10F trigger is about a pound lighter.

The P10 has other advantages. It is available optics ready, where the VP9 has to be direct milled. It has a 4.5 inch barrel, making it easier to make power factor with lighter ammo. It is much easier to reload than the VP9, and the OEM mags hold 19 instead of 15. It is also very Glock like, from a maintenance perspective, and not subject to Enel’s mallet releasing the sear.

For combi carry/competition use, I think the P10F/C pistols are brilliant. They fit in many Glock holsters, point naturally, and do not seem subject to the “my Glock shoots left” ergonomics.



Thanks! A similar P10F comparo to the 320 X5 is surely forthcoming. Right? ;)

GJM
06-26-2019, 07:37 AM
Thanks! A similar P10F comparo to the 320 X5 is surely forthcoming. Right? ;)

I think that is inevitable — my wife has improved so much, I don’t want her to have a technology advantage over me!

Assuming reliability, accuracy and reasonable ergonomics, a lot of this is simply trigger weight and overall pistol weight.

Here are some USPSA CO weights, meaning their weight empty with their optic, and an empty 140mm magazine.

Glock 45 with Acro - 27.95 ounces

Gen 5 Glock 34 with DP Pro - 27.35

VP9 with DP Pro - 29.05

P10F with DP Pro - 29.50

320 X5 with RTS 2 - 32.60

320 X5 with DP Pro and Tungsten guide rod - 35.50

320 X5 with DP Pro and some more grip mods - 37.43

New 320 Legion X5 with Tungsten infused grip module is supposed to be about 44.0 all up.

Shadow 2 with DP Pro, and weight reductions - 44.0

spinmove_
06-26-2019, 07:55 AM
Despite my interest of your findings and comparisons, SIG’s QC and general business practices still gives me the willies.


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GJM
06-26-2019, 11:19 AM
Despite my interest of your findings and comparisons, SIG’s QC and general business practices still gives me the willies.


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I am still pissed at Sig too, but my grudges are against companies and not products, or I would pretty much be limited to a 1950’s manufacture S&W revolver, Colt 1911 and Winchester model 70.

JHC
06-26-2019, 11:23 AM
. . . limited to a 1950’s manufacture S&W revolver, Colt 1911 and Winchester model 70 . . .

I get it, I get it. But how romantic that would be!

Clusterfrack
06-26-2019, 11:44 AM
For me, the most important thing was to keep it as similar as possible to my Production guns, so I went with a Shadow2 CO conversion. I'm still focussing primarily on Production, but so far the S2 has worked great as a CO gun.

I shot p320s for a couple years, and was quite happy with them. I agree that this is probably the best out-of-the-box CO gun right now.

1911Nut
06-26-2019, 12:03 PM
"That led me to try the CZ P09, which I had Primary Machine direct mill for a DP Pro. I really liked the P09, but after a month or so I ran into the problem where I could get click instead of bang on double action shots."

What is the solution for "click instead of bang" on double action shots with the P-09?

Clusterfrack
06-26-2019, 12:15 PM
"That led me to try the CZ P09, which I had Primary Machine direct mill for a DP Pro. I really liked the P09, but after a month or so I ran into the problem where I could get click instead of bang on double action shots."

What is the solution for "click instead of bang" on double action shots with the P-09?

This has already been discussed at length in several threads. See post #278 and following:
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?32004-CZ-P09-ignition-problems/page28

1911Nut
06-26-2019, 12:24 PM
Thank you very much for the quick response. I recall the discussion, but hadn't paid all that much attention to it, as I was totally focused on Shadow 1 pistols (and still am).

But I have a CGW P-09 on the way to me and my interest has renewed. I appreciate this forum and all the knowledge base that makes it such a valuable and enjoyable resource.

MGW
06-26-2019, 12:55 PM
GJM I don't recall from the P09 thread but did you have failure to fire issues with the stock CZ P09 trigger components?

cheby
06-26-2019, 01:21 PM
why not a CZ shadow instead of Shadow 2??? It meets the weight without any extra work. The same magazines and grips as Shadow 2. Even a holster that works for Shadow 2 would be a good fit for Shadow. (Not the other way around). I shot both a lot. The same internal parts. The difference it like between G17 and G34. If you like DA/SA guns and your production gun is Shadow 2, I do not understand why you need a Shadow 2. Get a used Accushadow and you are good to go

Clusterfrack
06-26-2019, 01:23 PM
Thank you very much for the quick response. I recall the discussion, but hadn't paid all that much attention to it, as I was totally focused on Shadow 1 pistols (and still am).

But I have a CGW P-09 on the way to me and my interest has renewed. I appreciate this forum and all the knowledge base that makes it such a valuable and enjoyable resource.

I suggest that you follow the instructions in the linked thread, so you can see what it takes to cause the hammer to drop to half cock. I have been able to do it with every 09 or 07 I’ve tried, regardless of parts. For me, it takes a very contrived trigger pull. GJM and I do not agree about whether this is a problem. I understand why he thinks it is, but I do not. I’m carrying a Cajunized P07 right now.

Trukinjp13
06-26-2019, 01:23 PM
GJM I don't recall from the P09 thread but did you have failure to fire issues with the stock CZ P09 trigger components?

Yes. It was not a CGW problem.

Please go through the threads guys, this is one serious fucking rabbit hole every time it comes up. I know it’s a shot ton of info. This is not a problem that everyone has, buy one and shoot it. See if it happens to you. If so move on. If not happy trails with a badass da/sa pistol


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Clusterfrack
06-26-2019, 01:24 PM
why not a CZ shadow instead of Shadow 2??? It meets the weight without any extra work. The same magazines and grips as Shadow 2. Even a holster that works for Shadow 2 would be a good fit for Shadow. (Not the other way around). I shot both a lot. The same internal parts. The difference it like between G17 and G34. If you like DA/SA guns and your production gun is Shadow 2, I do not understand why you need a Shadow 2. Get a used Accushadow and you are good to go

The S2 fits me better, and why not go with the latest, best gun? A few $100 more and a trip to the shop isn’t a big deal in the USPSA world.

MGW
06-26-2019, 01:27 PM
Yes. It was not a CGW problem.

Please go through the threads guys, this is one serious fucking rabbit hole every time it comes up. I know it’s a shot ton of info. This is not a problem that everyone has, buy one and shoot it. See if it happens to you. If so move on. If not happy trails with a badass da/sa pistol


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I did read the thread and I didn't want to read it again. That's why I tagged GJM and asked him the question being that he's the OP and all.

cheby
06-26-2019, 01:34 PM
The S2 fits me better, and why not go with the latest, best gun? A few $100 more and a trip to the shop isn’t a big deal in the USPSA world.

Shadow has the same grips. It feels 99.99% the same with the same grips. I still have both - you are welcome to try. Regarding the "latest, best" - again - all the internal parts are the same and interchangeable. All the parts used in Shadow 2 can be used in Shadow. The frame and the slide are a little different but it is absolutely not worth any metal removal to meet the weight. I am pretty sure that the removal a of any metal from the frame and slide does not make it "better". As someone who broke a slide on Shadow and a frame on Shadow 2, I am sensitive to this type of modification.

Clusterfrack
06-26-2019, 02:10 PM
The subtle difference in backstrap contour below the beavertail makes the S2 feel better in my hands.

Springer did a clever job milling my slide for weight reduction. I can’t see how this could weaken it. The optic mount cutout is more of a concern though. Lots of metal gone there.

GJM
06-26-2019, 03:17 PM
i am disappearing shortly to go fish at a remote lodge until Monday, so I expect you will have it all argued out by the time I return, as to which CO pistol is best! As my initial post should have made clear, I am still trying to figure it out for myself, because every darn one of these pistols has its own pros and cons.

Doc_Glock
06-26-2019, 07:28 PM
GJM nice retrospective. I have always maintained that the P320 despite its issues shoots amazing.

You are talking me into a P10.

spinmove_
06-27-2019, 08:17 AM
i am disappearing shortly to go fish at a remote lodge until Monday, so I expect you will have it all argued out by the time I return, as to which CO pistol is best! As my initial post should have made clear, I am still trying to figure it out for myself, because every darn one of these pistols has its own pros and cons.

There is no best gun. It’s all just a matter of which pros and cons you’re willing to live with.


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kmanick
06-27-2019, 09:11 PM
I was shooting a Shadow 2 in Production and got a 2nd slide for it and had CZC mill it and lighten it for CO.
Sy buddy has the Shadow Target II. Very similar guns but the TII is lighter and a bit smaller in my hand.
He also has a Shadow 2 and never shoots it because of how the Target II feels in his Hand.
I go the other way , I don't like the fit of the T II in my larger hands so the Shadow 2 is a better fit.
I don't care about the internals being the same, it's how it fits you hand and how you shoot it that matters.
I'm hoping the SRO becomes more readily available soo (I have one pre ordered) and they work out any kink s they may have.
I am beginning to see a lot moe CZ's and Sig X5's dominating CO lately at the matches I've been attending

GJM
07-01-2019, 06:24 AM
Article on P10 optics ready pistols:

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2019/06/30/tfb-exclusive-pre-production-development-of-the-cz-p-10-c-pt-3/

GJM
07-01-2019, 08:43 AM
And, an interesting post by Charlie Perez on the P10 OR:

https://forums.brianenos.com/topic/273652-p10f-or-upgrades-for-competition/page/2/

Rc217
07-01-2019, 08:54 AM
I hope usuable backup irons are coming soon for the P10c series. I was able to put on a .4 Dawson sight for the p09 that looks tall enough for the delta point pro, but the integrated rear sight can’t be adjusted low enough to zero it due to the ledge of the dovetail directly behind the installed dpp.

GJM
07-06-2019, 08:48 PM
I hope usuable backup irons are coming soon for the P10c series. I was able to put on a .4 Dawson sight for the p09 that looks tall enough for the delta point pro, but the integrated rear sight can’t be adjusted low enough to zero it due to the ledge of the dovetail directly behind the installed dpp.

CZ USA sent PF member SteveB an email saying their own optics plates and BUIS for the P10 OR models are available imminently.

SigFan hooked me up with a 320 X5 Legion which should arrive Wednesday. Can’t wait! My wife and I shot our first match today with a regular 320 X5 and enjoyed them a lot. My wife has figured out how to bevel the magwell to make them near 2011 Limited guns. Hope the Dremel works on the Tungsten infused grip modules.

39824

Sigfan26
07-06-2019, 09:11 PM
SigFan hooked me up with a 320 X5 Legion which should arrive Wednesday. Can’t wait! My wife and I shot our first match today with a regular 320 X5 and enjoyed them a lot. My wife has figured out how to bevel the magwell to make them near 2011 Limited guns. Hope the Dremel works on the Tungsten infused grip modules.

39824

You have first right of refusal on the next ones I get, too!


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Clusterfrack
07-06-2019, 10:48 PM
Will you add the Grayguns competition trigger/action package, GJM?

GJM
07-18-2019, 04:13 PM
Will you add the Grayguns competition trigger/action package, GJM?

We have been using fire control units with the GGI trigger, that were in her X5 pistols, although the OEM Legion trigger is pretty darn good.

Since my wife has been shooting a pair of 320 X5 pistols and really liking them, we got her a pair of the new 320 Legions. She really likes them but has been having sporadic stoppages with both of them, using 115 ball PMC and AE which runs fine in her other X5 pistols.

After a fair amount of trouble shooting, switching slides and recoil springs, the trouble seems to be with the Legion lowers. I have no idea what is going on, but a difference is the Tungsten in the Legion lowers which may change the characteristics of the polymer lowers.

JHC
07-31-2019, 11:42 AM
We have been using fire control units with the GGI trigger, that were in her X5 pistols, although the OEM Legion trigger is pretty darn good.

Since my wife has been shooting a pair of 320 X5 pistols and really liking them, we got her a pair of the new 320 Legions. She really likes them but has been having sporadic stoppages with both of them, using 115 ball PMC and AE which runs fine in her other X5 pistols.

After a fair amount of trouble shooting, switching slides and recoil springs, the trouble seems to be with the Legion lowers. I have no idea what is going on, but a difference is the Tungsten in the Legion lowers which may change the characteristics of the polymer lowers.

Any update to observations of these or the top alternative contenders (ie P10-F)?

matt7184
08-01-2019, 04:46 AM
We have been using fire control units with the GGI trigger, that were in her X5 pistols, although the OEM Legion trigger is pretty darn good.

Since my wife has been shooting a pair of 320 X5 pistols and really liking them, we got her a pair of the new 320 Legions. She really likes them but has been having sporadic stoppages with both of them, using 115 ball PMC and AE which runs fine in her other X5 pistols.

After a fair amount of trouble shooting, switching slides and recoil springs, the trouble seems to be with the Legion lowers. I have no idea what is going on, but a difference is the Tungsten in the Legion lowers which may change the characteristics of the polymer lowers.

Which recoil spring are you using on the Legions?

I've been lucky and my older X5 and Legion eat up 115gr no issues with 10-17# recoil springs (my 320s are a lot less fussy about recoil spring rate than any other striker fire gun I've owned though). My X5s even like wolf steel case ammo and shoot it shockingly well.

Dismas316
08-01-2019, 07:52 AM
Great thread. Since I moved to CO last year I have been absorbed in the sport. Started with the 34 MOS and while it’s solid (it’s a glock), I made a move in the spring to the Shadow 2 and had CZC put the plate system for the DPP. I have never looked back. Absolutely love this gun

I had tried the Walther Q5 Steel but didn’t really like the grip, the rest of the polymer guns, the 34 imo was as good or better. Of course unlike GJM, I didn’t get to try every gun that is made, lol. Not a big fan of the Sig so the 320 X5 didn’t do anything for me the glock didn’t do. A buddy just got the 320 Legion recently and it was having some malfunctions in a match (keep having to hit the back to go back into battery). It was his first match with it, so maybe it was just some teething problems of a new gun. He let me shoot it after the match and I was surprised how gritty the trigger felt, especially dry firing it, wasn’t as bad shooting and was a little surprised it wasn’t that great. It’s just a sample of one, and one mag shot out of it, so not really all that meaningful, it felt like a heavy 320 X5 which wasn’t bad at all, but I’ll take my S2 everyday, worth every penny to have the optic plate put on it.

I really want to get the SRO optic but want to make sure the bugs are worked out. Shot a gun with one and the brightness of the dot and shape of the glass made it way easier to pick up at speed, it was awesome. Really disappointed to hear it is having issues but hopefully it’s just the usually new product kinks that get worked out.