Underwood .45 ACP and .45 Super Hard Cast in Clear Ballistics Gel

[5pins]

https://i.imgur.com/34usmtfl.jpg?1

Test Gun: Colt 1911.
Barrel length: 5 inches.
Ammunition: Underwood .45 ACP +P and .45 Super 255gr Hard Cast.
Test media: 10% Clear Ballistics Gel.
Distance: 10 feet.
Chronograph: Caldwell Ballistic Precision Chronograph G2.
Five shot velocity average: 891, 1078fps
Gel Temperature 70 degrees.

The second installment of the Underwood hard cast woods load we take a look at the .45 ACP+P and the .45 Super. Both of these loads use the same 255gr hard cast Hi-Tek coated bullet.

I got a five shot average velocity of 891fps with a high of 902fps and low 888fps. Underwood lists their velocity of 925fps for this load.

https://i.imgur.com/icN0h7Dl.jpg?1
Ten yards offhand five shots .45 ACP +P

With the .45 Super load, I got an average velocity of 1078fps with a high of 1082fps and a low of 1073fps. The advertised velocity from Underwood for this load is 1075fps.

https://i.imgur.com/jNzQDpNl.jpg?1
Ten yards offhand five shots .45 Super

I used the same pistol with both of these loads even though the pistol is not set up for the Super round. I did have one failure to feed.

https://i.imgur.com/n3pX0vSl.jpg

The .45 ACP didn't show any sign of excessive pressure even though it's listed as +P. The .45 Super, on the other hand, flatted primers and primer flow into the firing pin hole.

https://i.imgur.com/lWcp04vl.jpg?1

Starting with the +P loading the first round had a velocity of 873fps and penetrated to 53.5 inches. The recovered weight was 247.8 grains. The second round hit the gel block at a velocity of 895fps and penetrated to 50 inches. It's recovered weight was 247.6 grains.

https://i.imgur.com/re3GIhll.jpg?1

The first round through the sheet metal had a velocity of 906fps and penetrated to 21.25 inches. It's recovered weight was 247.6 grains. Round two had a velocity of 920fps and penetrated to 18.75 inches. The recovered weight of the second round was 249.3 grains.

https://i.imgur.com/rF7WlxPl.jpg?1

With the Super load, the first round in the bare gel had a velocity of 1072fps and passed completely through all four gel blocks and was not recovered. I really didn't expect that much penetration so I didn't put a piece of body armor behind it. Learning from the first shot, I put the armor behind the last block and shot another round into the bare gel. It also passed through but bounced off the body armor and was found on the floor next to me. It's velocity was 1075fps and the recovered weight was 251.3 grains.

https://i.imgur.com/nkgQdt1l.jpg?1

Through the angled sheet metal the first round had a velocity of 1059fps and penetrated to 28.5 inches. The recovered weight was 242.8 grains. The second round passed through the sheet metal at a velocity of 1061fps and exited the side of the block at the 24 inches mark.

https://i.imgur.com/qZY7ypAl.jpg?1

These loads exceeded my expectations by quite a bit. The .45 Super round is only the third round to pass completely through all 64 inches of gel. Sharing that title with the Underwood 147gr hard cast and the Double Tap 200gr FMJ 10mm.

The +P version was also the winner in the .45 ACP department with a max penetration of 53.5 inches, about 11 more inches then the next best, the Cutting Edge solid at just a little over 42 inches.

[Tokarev]

That's pretty crazy.

So if I remember all your testing, a traditional hardcast bullet has shown deeper penetration than the "x-treme" version with the flutes is that right?



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[JHC]

Thanks so much! That is amazing. And let me add BEAR to this thread, BIG BEARS. GJM

[5pins]

That's pretty crazy.

So if I remember all your testing, a traditional hardcast bullet has shown deeper penetration than the "x-treme" version with the flutes is that right?



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Yes., in bare gel. With the sheet metal the difference isn't as large.

[GJM]

Yes., in bare gel. With the sheet metal the difference isn't as large.

Now that you have tested 9, 40, 45 with hard cast and penetrator loads, I am very interested in your thoughts on the field pistol load. I prioritize reliability first, then bullet performance and shootability, but you and others may feel differently, and that could influence your choices.

[TiroFijo]

That 45 ACP load has about 20% more recoil impulse than a normal SAAMI load (230 gr @ 850 fps). That's inevitably translates into faster rearward slide speed, harder impact on the frame, and coupled with more powerful recoil springs a faster cycle time. This is probably out of the ideal envelope for reliable and durable functioning.

They don't call them "recoil operated" for nothing...

[Wayne Dobbs]

Now that you have tested 9, 40, 45 with hard cast and penetrator loads, I am very interested in your thoughts on the field pistol load. I prioritize reliability first, then bullet performance and shootability, but you and others may feel differently, and that could influence your choices.

I think your priority list is correct, GJM. If the pistol won't function reliably, all else is moot.

[45dotACP]

If you're going to put in any regular practice running a 45 with ammo that hot, it is advisable to switch to a heavy mainspring and a much heavier recoil spring. I'd just off the wall suggest a 23lb mainspring or higher and at least a 20 or 22lb recoil spring.

Also, I'd be running a 7 round mag or get fresh springs in that one. The reason you got that high angled jam was because the slide was running too fast for the magazine spring to present the round.

And I can't believe I'm saying this, bit if you can get a shock buffer to work, I'd also suggest it. That way you avoid beating the gun to pieces.

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[5pins]

Obviously, reliability is most important above all. So far the only problem I have had is with the .45 Super and 10mm Hard Cast. With the Super, it was a classic case of the slide velocity moving to fast for the magazine. If this pistol was properly set up for shooting the super it may not have happened. The bullet profile of the Underwood bullet isn't much different than other common .45 ACP bullets.

https://i.imgur.com/dx5CYjIl.jpg?1

On the other hand, the bullet profile on the 10mm hard cast is the main culprit. The wide flat nose has a tendency to hit the slide stop locking the slide to the rear.

If I were to carry my 1911 for the woods, at this point I would use the Underwood hard cast +P loading, after running a few boxes through it. This is assuming I didn't handload for it. Even if the super was reliable I would pick it because it just shot better, not much different than a hot 230 ball round.

I would also pick the Underwood Hard Cast in 9mm and .40. Assuming they continue to function properly.

[Tokarev]

https://www.outdoorlife.com/bear-defense-gun-shootout-magnum-revolvers-vs-10mm-autos/

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[5pins]

https://www.outdoorlife.com/bear-defense-gun-shootout-magnum-revolvers-vs-10mm-autos/

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I think I will side with the semi auto on this one.




Another guy in New Mexico failed to stop a black bearquickly enough with his 10mm, even with multiple hits. The bear was gnawing onhim when he tried a head shot. The gun jammed. He cleared the jam while thebear continued to dine on his leg and finally killed the bruin. Rescuers had tocut the bear’s jaws off his leg.



What he does not tell you is the guy was using hollowpoint ammo, Hornady Critical Duty IIRC. He also fails to mention that the guyshot 6 rounds before the malfunction, how many rounds does a revolver carry?This may have turned out differently had the guy used some form of non-expandingammo. But lets say the only way to stop the bear was a shot to the head. Inthat case a revolver would not had been any better and instead of clearing a malfunctionhe would have been trying a reload on a single action revolver.



Contrast that with my friend, Alaska resident and guideLucas Clark. A large brown bear attacked him. He shot it with his .500 S&W,and the bear fell down and politely died.
[/QUOTE]


Shot placement? [QUOTE]

[JHC]

The Alaskan got the better of that argument for sure. Not the best treatment of the topic we've seen here eh? ;)

[03RN]

I think I will side with the semi auto on this one.




Another guy in New Mexico failed to stop a black bearquickly enough with his 10mm, even with multiple hits. The bear was gnawing onhim when he tried a head shot. The gun jammed. He cleared the jam while thebear continued to dine on his leg and finally killed the bruin. Rescuers had tocut the bear’s jaws off his leg.



What he does not tell you is the guy was using hollowpoint ammo, Hornady Critical Duty IIRC. He also fails to mention that the guyshot 6 rounds before the malfunction, how many rounds does a revolver carry?This may have turned out differently had the guy used some form of non-expandingammo. But lets say the only way to stop the bear was a shot to the head. Inthat case a revolver would not had been any better and instead of clearing a malfunctionhe would have been trying a reload on a single action revolver.



Contrast that with my friend, Alaska resident and guideLucas Clark. A large brown bear attacked him. He shot it with his .500 S&W,and the bear fell down and politely died.



Shot placement?







What kind of malfunction? Sounds like he was close. Was it a contact shot that caused the auto to malf? A 7 shot l frame or 8 shot n frame would have worked.

Maybe if he used solids he'd of reached the vitals in 6 in which case any 6+ gun would of been fine.

[willie]

A heavier mainspring will be more effective than a heavier recoil spring in slowing down slide velocity, though that too needs replacing. Don't overlook a heavier firing pin spring. I would increase the magazine spring weight. One reason is so that the ammo column will rise fast enough to match slide velocity. Don't laugh. That's a factor. Another is that increased upward pressure from a heavier mag spring might retard slide velocity slightly. Has anyone noticed how strong that S&W .45 Shield mag springs are? And that the slide bottom contacting ammo column has machine cut grooves to retard slide velocity. Slide Guide brand of grease has a stiff version. This too would slow down the slide.

[GJM]

Or, you can use an HK USP FS 45, which runs Super ammo without modification.

While I found my 10mm Government models to do pretty well with a modest diet of heavy loads, the 1911 was unsatisfactory for my use as a field gun in Alaska. Heavy, especially for its capacity, small trigger guard, fine controls and trigger for wet or cold hands, pointy exterior, with open areas like the hammer to attract crud.

[willie]

Or, you can use an HK USP FS 45, which runs Super ammo without modification.

While I found my 10mm Government models to do pretty well with a modest diet of heavy loads, the 1911 was unsatisfactory for my use as a field gun in Alaska. Heavy, especially for its capacity, small trigger guard, fine controls and trigger for wet or cold hands, pointy exterior, with open areas like the hammer to attract crud.

I agree that the HK 45 is a much better choice for 45 Super loads. Since the op is an experimenter who will be able to make his 1911 run with heavy loads, the rest of us might consider using another platform for Super ammo.

[OlongJohnson]

I think I will side with the semi auto on this one.



Another guy in New Mexico failed to stop a black bearquickly enough with his 10mm, even with multiple hits. The bear was gnawing onhim when he tried a head shot. The gun jammed. He cleared the jam while thebear continued to dine on his leg and finally killed the bruin. Rescuers had tocut the bear’s jaws off his leg.

What he does not tell you is the guy was using hollowpoint ammo, Hornady Critical Duty IIRC. He also fails to mention that the guyshot 6 rounds before the malfunction, how many rounds does a revolver carry?This may have turned out differently had the guy used some form of non-expandingammo. But lets say the only way to stop the bear was a shot to the head. Inthat case a revolver would not had been any better and instead of clearing a malfunctionhe would have been trying a reload on a single action revolver.

What kind of malfunction? Sounds like he was close. Was it a contact shot that caused the auto to malf? A 7 shot l frame or 8 shot n frame would have worked.

Maybe if he used solids he'd of reached the vitals in 6 in which case any 6+ gun would of been fine.

If this is the one I remember reading about, there was one or more contact or near-contact shots after they got tangled up. Some bear fur got stuck in the gun (barrel-to-slide lockup, maybe?) and kept the slide from returning to battery.

That might be a reason to go with a regular USP 45 FS for outdoors use instead of a version with an O-ring, if you're someone who ponders that question. Some of the other dimensions lead to a thou or two more clearance here and there on the regular model as well; H&K personnel have recommended the regular FS over O-ringed versions for ultimate hard-use, hard-environment reliability.

Although the magazine holds fewer rounds, a G20 feels like a 2x4 in my XXXL hands. A USP 45 FS is just right, and I expect to get a first accurate round on target faster with a USP than with a Glock in general. I'm a weirdo, though. The USP still holds 62.5 percent more rounds than an 8-shot N-frame .357, and 116.7 percent more than a six shooter. Being able to go back and forth between HST and Super by swapping mags doesn't suck.

----------

Back to the original post, did anyone else notice that the +P rounds still had powdercoating where the lands rubbbed, but the land areas on the Super bullets were shiny lead? I'm wondering how many rounds it would take to lead up the lands in the barrel.

Reminds me of Berry's advice about limiting velocity with its standard plating; they sell thick-plated bullets for faster loadings.

Comparing the hard cast to Underwood's pics of the 230gr Gold Dot, it looks like the GD has a wider nose than the hard cast's meplat. My understanding is that in general, a wider meplat with sharper edges leads to greater wounding effects.
https://www.underwoodammo.com/collections/handgun-ammo/products/45-super-230-grain-bonded-jacketed-hollow-point?variant=18785711423545
Seems like if you were in charge of a bullet design, having the exact same profile as a GD in a hard cast flat nose would make some sense. If a gun is vetted with GDs, the shape of the bullet at least wouldn't be a reason for it to have issues.

[Jeep]

Or, you can use an HK USP FS 45, which runs Super ammo without modification.

While I found my 10mm Government models to do pretty well with a modest diet of heavy loads, the 1911 was unsatisfactory for my use as a field gun in Alaska. Heavy, especially for its capacity, small trigger guard, fine controls and trigger for wet or cold hands, pointy exterior, with open areas like the hammer to attract crud.

As a penalty for irritating my troop commander, I spent some quality time one very cold February in the mountains a bit southeast of Fairbanks. My view is that the small 1911 trigger guard alone disqualifies it in very cold weather. Basically you want the largest trigger guard possible so you can have a glove that is large enough to keep your trigger finger from freezing. But, of course, in February you don't need to worry about bears. (Wolves? Oh yeah--you definitely need to worry about them--they're real hungry in February)

[Tokarev]

As a penalty for irritating my troop commander, I spent some quality time one very cold February in the mountains a bit southeast of Fairbanks. My view is that the small 1911 trigger guard alone disqualifies it in very cold weather. Basically you want the largest trigger guard possible so you can have a glove that is large enough to keep your trigger finger from freezing. But, of course, in February you don't need to worry about bears. (Wolves? Oh yeah--you definitely need to worry about them--they're real hungry in February)Wasn't a large trigger guard something spec'ed out for the M9 back in the day?

Glock also has a very small trigger guard. One of the reasons I wonder why the gun has such worldwide acceptance.

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[JAD]

I wonder if gloves that would be helpful in Fairbanks in February would preclude shooting just about anything. One forum member has written about wearing under gloves with snowmobile mitts that he practices throwing off quickly.

[Jeep]

I wonder if gloves that would be helpful in Fairbanks in February would preclude shooting just about anything. One forum member has written about wearing under gloves with snowmobile mitts that he practices throwing off quickly.

What we did was wear GI wool gloves under heavy mittens that were attached to our parkas. You could take off the mitten somewhat fast, and then had something of a glove.

But in live fire exercises in the real cold it didn't work that well. We needed a mitten with a separate trigger finger glove--and didn't have it. The theory behind one of those would be that you normally kept your trigger finger in the mitten part where the fingers mutually keep each other somewhat warm, and then thrust it into the glove portion when you need it.

The truth is that military operations in the real cold are extremely difficult to carry out.