RFI: Carbine Gas FSB Cutout DROP IN Rails?

[Magsz]

Hey guys,

Due to draconian policy, my Agency does not allow any modification to the rifle. I have however, begged, pleaded and coerced (not really) the armory staff into admitting that a drop in handguard such as the Magpul Moe SL is the SAME thing as an extruded aluminum free float DROP IN RAIL, ie it is NOT a modification.

So, having said that. What are my options these days?

Ive seen the Alpha rail from Troy.

What else is there?

I cant believe im about to say this but UTG/Leapers Pro-Line has an offering in Mlok that looks pretty damned nice:

https://leapers.com/index.php?act=prod_detail&status=utg&itemno=MTU015SSM

Thanks in advance for the feedback and suggestions!

[HeavyDuty]

I want to say Daniel Defense used to do an Omega like that. I’ve been very happy with the Omegas I’ve owned, it may be worth looking for.

[HCM]

Hey guys,

Due to draconian policy, my Agency does not allow any modification to the rifle. I have however, begged, pleaded and coerced (not really) the armory staff into admitting that a drop in handguard such as the Magpul Moe SL is the SAME thing as an extruded aluminum free float DROP IN RAIL, ie it is NOT a modification.

So, having said that. What are my options these days?

Ive seen the Alpha rail from Troy.

What else is there?

I cant believe im about to say this but UTG/Leapers Pro-Line has an offering in Mlok that looks pretty damned nice:

https://leapers.com/index.php?act=prod_detail&status=utg&itemno=MTU015SSM

Thanks in advance for the feedback and suggestions!

Delta rail from Troy - I prefer the VTAC version to the cheese grater /Alpha version. The Charlie rail if you want full pictainny.

[HCM]

I want to say Daniel Defense used to do an Omega like that. I’ve been very happy with the Omegas I’ve owned, it may be worth looking for.

The omega drop in FF is good, it’s just not extended.

[Magsz]

HCM. I dig the Troy offerings, unfortunately there is a very strange picatinny section of rail underneath the damned FSB that I absolutely loath. I have no clue why its there other than perhaps some sort of structural reinforcement.

Any other options out there?

I know that there used to be an OMEGA rail that extended beyond the FSB I THINK. As per their website, I don't think that rail is still in production.

[HeavyDuty]

The omega drop in FF is good, it’s just not extended.

I’m almost certain they used to do one.

[LittleLebowski]

I’d try the US made Leapers Pro in a New York minute.

https://www.primaryarms.com/leapers-utg-pro-handguard-15in-super-slim-free-float-model-4-15-black

[Rick62]

The Midwest Ind. version appears to be out of production. A WTB ad for that or the Omega rail may be productive. Samson appears to have a model that's still in production.

[Magsz]

I’d try the US made Leapers Pro in a New York minute.

https://www.primaryarms.com/leapers-utg-pro-handguard-15in-super-slim-free-float-model-4-15-black

UTG's drop in offering is forerunner in looks, attachment method and inner diameter/feel.

However, I cant help but get stuck in the stigma that surrounds Leapers...

Ive heard nothing but good things about the US made "Pro" stuff. Given the price, im inclined to say ^&#@ it and just go for it.

[Wake27]

UTG's drop in offering is forerunner in looks, attachment method and inner diameter/feel.

However, I cant help but get stuck in the stigma that surrounds Leapers...

Ive heard nothing but good things about the US made "Pro" stuff. Given the price, im inclined to say ^&#@ it and just go for it.

Is there any chance that if it breaks, someone will use that as evidence that you shouldn’t have been allowed to change it in the first place? I’ve seen shit like that in the army before so I know the line of thinking is out there. If so, maybe it’s not worth the gamble?


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[Magsz]

Is there any chance that if it breaks, someone will use that as evidence that you shouldn’t have been allowed to change it in the first place? I’ve seen shit like that in the army before so I know the line of thinking is out there. If so, maybe it’s not worth the gamble?


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I'm not worried about that. Im picking up what you're putting down but im not worried about it. :)

Its a 6061 extrusion. I really find it hard to believe its going to break if its installed properly. Plus, even if it does break, the rifle is still functional and ill figure it out at that time.

[Whiskey_Bravo]

Can you remove the delta ring and use the factory barrel nut?

If so, Centurion C4 series all day
***Disregard. Pretty sure I already know the answer to this since I also work for an agency with similar practices. You call it draconian. I call it pants on head retarded.

[Magsz]

Can you remove the delta ring and use the factory barrel nut?

If so, Centurion C4 series all day
***Disregard. Pretty sure I already know the answer to this since I also work for an agency with similar practices. You call it draconian. I call it pants on head retarded.

LOL!

I was trying to be nice..........I have so very many choice things to say about our weapons policy.....

I have to basically leave the rifle stock, ie no removal of the delta ring. I need something that will drop right in, in lieu of the standard plastic handguard.

[HCM]

I’m almost certain they used to do one.

They made an “ Omega X” FSB rail but the Omega X wasn’t a drop in. It required a barrel nut change.

[Magsz]

They made an “ Omega X” FSB rail but the Omega X wasn’t a drop in. It required a barrel nut change.

10-4. That wont do then.

UTG is sending me a sample to T&E. If i like it, ill buy it. Im super curious as to the quality. I spoke with their LE rep today and he told me that they have a lifetime guarantee on their products. If it breaks they will replace it.

The rails themselves are 6061 extrusions and they are hard anodized although the fella didn't specify if it was type III. I dont see why it wouldn't be. He told me that if i had any issues with the overall quality he would take care of me and I do believe him.

Ill end up doing a write up for those of us that are stuck in 1994. This may be a useful tool at a very affordable price.

[Mark D]

Delta rail from Troy - I prefer the VTAC version to the cheese grater /Alpha version. The Charlie rail if you want full pictainny.

Yup, agree this is solid choice. I mounted the Troy Delta on a S&W carbine with FSB. Easy and secure install using the standard delta ring and barrel nut.

Mine is a bit of cheese grater though, and it has that stupid section of pictainny on the bottom at the front. I eventually switched to the Magpul MOE SL because it's slightly lighter. If I needed free float or additional mounting options I'd go back to the Delta.

Edited to add: Very interested in the T&E of the unit from UTG.

[HCM]

Yup, agree this is solid choice. I mounted the Troy Delta on a S&W carbine with FSB. Easy and secure install using the standard delta ring and barrel nut.

Mine is a bit of cheese grater though, and it has that stupid section of pictainny on the bottom at the front. I eventually switched to the Magpul MOE SL because it's slightly lighter. If I needed free float or additional mounting options I'd go back to the Delta.

Edited to add: Very interested in the T&E of the unit from UTG.

The alpha version with the round holes is a cheesegrater which is why I recommend the VTAC version with the slots. Squid grips help on the Alpha.

I put a BCM KAG handstop hason the 1913 rail section under the FSB which has worked well. A magpul AFG would work too.

[LittleLebowski]

10-4. That wont do then.

UTG is sending me a sample to T&E. If i like it, ill buy it. Im super curious as to the quality. I spoke with their LE rep today and he told me that they have a lifetime guarantee on their products. If it breaks they will replace it.

The rails themselves are 6061 extrusions and they are hard anodized although the fella didn't specify if it was type III. I dont see why it wouldn't be. He told me that if i had any issues with the overall quality he would take care of me and I do believe him.

Ill end up doing a write up for those of us that are stuck in 1994. This may be a useful tool at a very affordable price.

You’re my hero. I want a more modern Leapers for the trusty old 5.45. Post a review and pics.

[Tokarev]

HCM. I dig the Troy offerings, unfortunately there is a very strange picatinny section of rail underneath the damned FSB that I absolutely loath. I have no clue why its there other than perhaps some sort of structural reinforcement.

Any other options out there?

I know that there used to be an OMEGA rail that extended beyond the FSB I THINK. As per their website, I don't think that rail is still in production.I've had the VTAC drop-in on my budget training rifle for a couple years. I didn't necessarily start out wanting the VTAC but I'm generally happy with it.

The rifle in question started out as a stock factory Ruger. I pulled the plastic forend and threw it away. Not generally liking the available carbine length forends I wanted something with a bit more versatility and went with the VTAC since it is drop-in and free float.

Turned out the Ruger front sight base is different shape on the bottom than a standard A frame so I had to saw and file the base to fit into the forend. Then I decided I didn't like the stupid Ruger heavy profile and swapped in a Ballistic Advantage pencil barrel. Already owning the VTAC, I stuck with carbine length. Were I to start over again I would have done a pencil mid-length and something like the Troy SOCC.

Yeah. The rail under the front sight sux and is mostly unnecessary. It probably does add some structural integrity and would, of course, be handy if I ran a VFG. But I don't. I wish it wasn't there but I don't really notice it when shooting.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190629/c3b3a730afd8603315605d42025a0ebd.jpg

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[Magsz]

The location of the rail on the vtac kills me. Especially given the location of the sling QD cup. Im not sure how I would add a VFG/AFG to that area and still have room for my hand with the sling swivel in that location. Granted, I dont have to use that location so its not the end of the world.

I really want to get my hands on that darned rail to give it a whirl.

Also, the UTG rail is in and its installed. Ill have a write up coming. Initial impressions are favorable, skeptical and optimistic all at once.

[Tokarev]

The location of the rail on the vtac kills me. Especially given the location of the sling QD cup. Im not sure how I would add a VFG/AFG to that area and still have room for my hand with the sling swivel in that location. Granted, I dont have to use that location so its not the end of the world.


It isn't super visible in my pic but I'm running a VTAC LPSM right behind the front sight. It works okay. Allows me to get fairly far out on the forend with my support hand. I can still reach out and around the sling to activate the light.

As mentioned I'd do it all different if starting over from scratch. But the rifle gets the job done. If and when I shoot the barrel out I'll go midlength with low pro.


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[Tokarev]

What about this? Not a full extension but it would allow a bit more real estate for sling swivels, etc.

https://www.centurionarms.com/product-p/0609-cc.htm

A Mossie rail could be added to get a light out farther on the gun.

https://arisakadefense.com/products/mossie-1913-fsb-mount

Mossie mounts installed on 11.5" guns:

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190630/997723f18c98da8f49d6f93d4f4d5764.jpg

Centurion also has a Troy-ish style that telescopes out past the front sight:

https://www.centurionarms.com/product-p/06012-p.htm

I have not used any Centurion parts but they are fairly well regarded from what I've seen on the web.

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[HCM]

What about this? Not a full extension but it would allow a bit more real estate for sling swivels, etc.

https://www.centurionarms.com/product-p/0609-cc.htm

A Mossie rail could be added to get a light out farther on the gun.

https://arisakadefense.com/products/mossie-1913-fsb-mount

Mossie mounts installed on 11.5" guns:

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190630/997723f18c98da8f49d6f93d4f4d5764.jpg

Centurion also has a Troy-ish style that telescopes out past the front sight:

https://www.centurionarms.com/product-p/06012-p.htm

I have not used any Centurion parts but they are fairly well regarded from what I've seen on the web.

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The Centurion rail is awesome but it requires cutting off or otherwise removing the delta ring so it would be a no go based on the OPs requirements. The Troy Charlie rail (drop in 1913 FSB) is a truce drop in like the delta.

[Tokarev]

The Centurion rail is awesome but it requires cutting off or otherwise removing the delta ring...

Samson maybe?

https://www.samson-mfg.com/star-exr-series.html




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[HCM]

Samson maybe?

https://www.samson-mfg.com/star-exr-series.html




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From the description on Sampson’s site:


It will require removal of the bayonet lug and sling swivel.

The sling swivel and bayonet lug are the reason the little 1913 rail portion is where it is on the Troy Delta.

Those 11.5” with the ACOG and offset BUIS are a neat set up.

[Tokarev]

Those 11.5” with the ACOG and offset BUIS are a neat set up.

Not ideal but they work OK for 1990's tech.

We got a couple thousand surplus ACOG scopes from the Marine Corps. The barrels are actually surplus too. They came from DoD and were cut to 11.5" by your associates in Altoona.

The offsets are a fairly new addition to our authorized equipment list. One of the continued complaints about the ACOG was using them at the 15 and 7 yard line portions of our qual. The offsets help in this regard.


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[HCM]

Not ideal but they work OK for 1990's tech.

We got a couple thousand surplus ACOG scopes from the Marine Corps. The barrels are actually surplus too. They came from DoD and were cut to 11.5" by your associates in Altoona.

The offsets are a fairly new addition to our authorized equipment list. One of the continued complaints about the ACOG was using them at the 15 and 7 yard line portions of our qual. The offsets help in this regard.


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I have one of those cut down SOCOM barrels on my work rifle. They shoot great. Altoona also opens up the gas ports to .070”. If you can’t have a free float the heavy barrel is the next best thing.

Offset RDS >offset BUIS but if you had tons of Aimpoint micros floating around you probably wouldn’t be running surplus ACOGs.

How are those Mossie mounted WML holding upon the 11.5” right over the muzzle device ?

[Tokarev]

How are those Mossie mounted WML holding upon the 11.5” right over the muzzle device ?

We have a mix of SOCOM and older M4 profile cut downs. The two rifles pictured here have the lighter profile. Weight with sling and empty mag is pretty close to 8.5 pounds.

The lights are holding up fine. The finish gets a little blemished but the glass stays clean. Down side is pulling the light off to change batteries. But that isn't any different than what's required with the pistol.


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[Magsz]

What about this? Not a full extension but it would allow a bit more real estate for sling swivels, etc.

https://www.centurionarms.com/product-p/0609-cc.htm

A Mossie rail could be added to get a light out farther on the gun.

https://arisakadefense.com/products/mossie-1913-fsb-mount

Mossie mounts installed on 11.5" guns:

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190630/997723f18c98da8f49d6f93d4f4d5764.jpg

Centurion also has a Troy-ish style that telescopes out past the front sight:

https://www.centurionarms.com/product-p/06012-p.htm

I have not used any Centurion parts but they are fairly well regarded from what I've seen on the web.

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That is my old setup brother.

I ran a Kley Zion mossie clone with nary an issue and a 600 lumen x300 for two years. Solid setup along with the magpul moe SL handguard.

The impetus for the change was that I wanted to attempt to free float the barrel, cover the exposed barrel in front of the front sight block and open up some lighting options via the addition of mlok.

Ive got this UTG rail on the gun and while its not bad, its just not right. Kind of like porridge that is too hot or too cold....lol.

Im still working on the writeup and pics. Give me a day or two.

PS, the centurion rail that you linked that extends underneath the FSB Is EXACTLY what im looking for with my aforementioned criteria. I just dont think anyone makes it.

[Tokarev]

That is my old setup brother.

I ran a Kley Zion mossie clone with nary an issue an a 600 lumen x300 for two years. Solid setup along with the magpul moe SL handguard.

The impetus for the change was that I wanted to attempt to free float the barrel, cover the exposed barrel in front of the front sight block and open up some lighting options via the addition of mlok.

Ive got this UTG rail on the gun and while its not bad, its just not right. Kind of like porridge that is too hot or too cold....lol.

Im still working on the writeup and pics. Give me a day or two.

PS, the centurion rail that you linked that extends underneath the FSB Is EXACTLY what im looking for with my aforementioned criteria. I just dont think anyone makes it.Options may have existed other than the Troy but I assume what may have been out there is probably discontinued. Market demand for carbine gas A-frame rails has got to be almost nil nowadays.

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[Magsz]

Options may have existed other than the Troy but I assume what may have been out there is probably discontinued. Market demand for carbine gas A-frame rails has got to be almost nil nowadays.

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Texas sized 10-4...

My agency will still be using .223 when everyone else has moved onto phaser canons. :P

[Tokarev]

Texas sized 10-4...

My agency will still be using .223 when everyone else has moved onto phaser canons. :PWe have a few 11.5 and 14.5" guns with low pros and BCM KMR or MMR forends. But they are relatively recent issue. Most of the guns we're currently using are 14.5" Colts. Some still have the round plastic handguard.

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[Magsz]

Well...

That was short lived.

I took the rifle out with the UTG pro rail and ran 300 rounds through it with the intent of getting it hot. I wanted to see if any of the mounting points were going to come loose.

My actual findings regarding shooting the thing:

The cut of this rail just doesnt work for me. My natural position of where I want my support hand is essentially right where the FSB is on a carbine gas gun. Even if i run the stock out (which i normally do anyway) I still find myself cramped. Even on my SBR's I essentially run my hand over the gas block. Its just how my body is designed I guess so this rail is a no go for ME. Once the gun got hot, I was continually burning myself on the FSB as there is a HUGE cutout on the bottom for the bayonet lug and my hand kept creeping forward. I tried variations of my normal grip by pushing my hand further back and instead "pointing" with my index finger along the 9 o'clock side of the rail. Invariably, I would end up creeping forward and burning myself on the bayonet lug.

I was also a little disappointed that the rail was a 15 inch instead of a 13. I just didnt need all of that rail out front adding extra weight as my Protac 2 weaponlight was mounted just forward of the FSB on the 3 o'clock rail in an arisaka offset mount. The setup did work marvelously with my Cloud Defensive LCS and pressure pad. I do miss that now that the rail is off of the gun.

So here is ultimately what killed it for me. I went to go check the rail today and the two indexing set screws that keep the rail from rotating on the barrel nut were loose along with two of the side mounted screws that secure the top rail to the bottom. I used high temp vibratite and degreased the threads prior to installation and the screws were still loose. Those set screws receive WAY too much heat butting up against the barrel nut. Granted, those set screws are also NOT necessary for the rail to function but I like things solid and when they come loose, I get annoyed.

So, overall, im super impressed by UTG's offering, especially at its current price point right around a hundo. I think that alot of the downsides that I found are subjective and specific to me as I tend to not want to carry a gun that I dont feel compelled to shoot at the range. I dont want to say that this rail isnt "duty" grade as I would NEVER get the gun hot to the point where I was going to get burned by the FSB in an OIS but I WANT to actually train with the damned thing and if i cant do so comfortably, the setup just doesnt work.

My holy grail would be the following:

Drop in, no modification necessary, M lok rail that uses the standard delta ring and barrel nut. The rail would be a 9 inch plus rail that would extend over the bayonet lug covering the FSB at the 3, 9 and 6 o'clock points. Its a shame that there is such a small market for this type of rail. Granted, its an even bigger shame that in 2019, working for a huge department im faced with this issue due to ridiculous policies. Basically if someone could make a free float MOE SL in a nice slim profile id be all over that shit like white on rice.

I promised pictures, ill have to get them up at some point, im just too stupid to figure out how to host them.

[Whiskey_Bravo]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190629/c3b3a730afd8603315605d42025a0ebd.jpg

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I actually really like the look of this rifle. As well as the other FSB rifles you posted.

My place still issues and for whatever reason swears by the old Surefire forends where the light is molded into a standard carbine handguard like an incandescent tumor. They also all feature the original sub 100 lumen heads.

I find them exceptional for making the dark darker and low light Targets more difficult to shoot.

I'll cease my venting for now. But just wanted to say this thread has really been interesting. I have seen several agencies lately still using that Troy/VTAC rail.

[Tokarev]

My place still issues and for whatever reason swears by the old Surefire forends where the light is molded into a standard carbine handguard like an incandescent tumor. They also all feature the original sub 100 lumen heads.

I believe Malkoff Devices makes LED upgrades for those old Surefire forends. Might be worth a poke around on his website and/or a phone call.



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[Whiskey_Bravo]

I believe Malkoff Devices makes LED upgrades for those old Surefire forends. Might be worth a poke around on his website and/or a phone call.

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You are correct. Surefire also makes an upgraded head. All of this was brought to the attention of the decision makers. They saw nothing wrong with the current issued gear.

[Tokarev]

You are correct. Surefire also makes an upgraded head. All of this was brought to the attention of the decision makers. They saw nothing wrong with the current issued gear.[emoji53]

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[SamueL]

I had the same issue with our policy. We were limited to a handful of Colt and Bushmaster models and modifications were not allowed if they required tools. I opted for a Colt 6920 Magpul and eventually had the itch for a longer rail. I ran a Troy Delta rail for a while and liked it for the benefits it provided. I went back to the Magpul MOE because I found out, once I had my concealable armor and plate carrier on, my short t-rex arms could not reach the extended real estate.

Right around the time I was looking at trying a Daniel Defense Omega 7.0, the policy drastically changed to include just about anything including homemade parts guns assembled out of spec.

I disliked the rail section on the bottom of the Delta rail but learned to live with it. I would recommend the VTAC version as others have said to lose the grater feel.

[HCM]

You are correct. Surefire also makes an upgraded head. All of this was brought to the attention of the decision makers. They saw nothing wrong with the current issued gear.

Two ways to prod them toward brighter lights-

1) Liability

2) aging work force. At 40 something it takes 4x as much light to see something in the dark vs when you were 14.

Refusal to recognize number 2 and make reasonable accommodation is an age discrimination complaint waiting to happen.

[Magsz]

I had the same issue with our policy. We were limited to a handful of Colt and Bushmaster models and modifications were not allowed if they required tools. I opted for a Colt 6920 Magpul and eventually had the itch for a longer rail. I ran a Troy Delta rail for a while and liked it for the benefits it provided. I went back to the Magpul MOE because I found out, once I had my concealable armor and plate carrier on, my short t-rex arms could not reach the extended real estate.

Right around the time I was looking at trying a Daniel Defense Omega 7.0, the policy drastically changed to include just about anything including homemade parts guns assembled out of spec.

I disliked the rail section on the bottom of the Delta rail but learned to live with it. I would recommend the VTAC version as others have said to lose the grater feel.

I have the same issue. All of that extended rail did nothing for me once I put my armor on. I dont have long or short arms but it just didn't work for me.

I MAY try the Omega rail as my gun feels a little on the heavy side as its currently set up.

[SamueL]

I MAY try the Omega rail as my gun feels a little on the heavy side as its currently set up.

I still have the DD Omega I can send you to try if you'd like. It's picatinny, not the latest awesomesauce, if that has any bearing.

[beckettt]

I'm sure the OP has a HG to his liking, but the Knight's (KAC) M4 RAS is a great rail.

[Tokarev]

Bump to see if OP got anything to work.

[M2CattleCo]

I would strongly recommend a KAC RAS and a stubby VFG to use to place the hand better for activating the light switch. If you have to have an IR laser, PEQ, whatever too, VFG with tape switch.

Workhorse:

https://photos.smugmug.com/My-First-Gallery/i-SFNbzrZ/0/2507b8d2/X3/F6F3784D-C077-46CD-B38A-E606373CD21A-X3.jpg

[SamueL]

Bump to see if OP got anything to work.

Not OP but I know he was using a Daniel Defense Omega M-Lok rail with a Streamlight Protac 2 attached via an IWC Thorntail mount.

[Moshjath]

Looks like you just got more options:

https://www.centurionarms.com/c4-mlok-rail-12in-fsp-p/081912p.htm

[Poconnor]

That mlok centurion rail is nice but expensive!

[HCM]

Looks like you just got more options:

https://www.centurionarms.com/c4-mlok-rail-12in-fsp-p/081912p.htm

Centurion rails use the GI barrel nut but are not true “drop in” parts as they require the delta ring assembly to be removed or cut away.

Nkt an option for those that can’t permanently modify Agency /GOV property weapons,

[HeavyDuty]

That mlok centurion rail is nice but expensive!

I have an older Centurion rail on one of my carbines, and it’s excellent. I have no problem spending for quality.

[Tokarev]

I thought Troy had discontinued the Delta line but I guess not.

https://troyind.com/rail-systems-accessories/rails/drop/delta

It looks like only the VTAC version is gone. I think there was also a full Picatinny version at one point too.

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[HCM]

I thought Troy had discontinued the Delta line but I guess not.

https://troyind.com/rail-systems-accessories/rails/drop/delta

It looks like only the VTAC version is gone. I think there was also a full Picatinny version at one point too.

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The pic rail version is the Charlie rail - it’s still available - https://troyind.com/rail-systems-accessories/rails/drop/charlie