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GJM
06-19-2019, 05:36 PM
Here is my thinking as of mid June 2019.

For carry and hard core defensive use today, the RMR type 2 (https://amzn.to/2IXCL6f) is the only high probability choice, unless an Aimpoint Micro works for your situation.

The RMS Shield is unproven, and leaving aside the current model is not waterproof and I know nothing about the new waterproof model, I am not aware of enough of them enduring high round counts to view them as viable.

The SRO clearly has teething problems, between the adjustments moving, and emitter problems experienced with multiple units even in our small sample. Hopefully it gets sorted out, but as of today, the SRO is at best, a “buy from Amazon” proposition, so you can return it for a no hassle credit, like my friend and I are doing.

The unmodified DP Pro is a real crap shoot. Some people report crazy high round counts, but my wife and I have broken 31 of them, making them hard to depend on. The three prototype ruggedized ones we have are working well, so with Leupold set to standardize those changes soon, the Pro may still be the gaming optic of choice.

The C-More RTS2 may be a niche gaming choice, but it doesn’t have universal mounting support, has less than ideal CS support for broken units, and I think is best on a frame mounted pistol.

The Vortex units seem to be hit and miss. I don’t know enough about the Burris and other lower end units to form an opinion.

The Acro is clearly an unknown. Aimpoint promised Aimpoint battery performance and reliability, and we know half that claim is wrong, so it remains to be seen on reliability, and whether it is overall viable. In any event it is harder to conceal, with a display to small for competition, making it a niche rather than universal solution.

A few months ago, I was convinced that 2019 was the year we finally got great new red dot choices that brought the PMO mainstream. Today, I think Aimpoint and Trijicon have snatched defeat from the jaws of victory with the SRO and Acro introductions, and realistically only after months of high round count use by multiple users, will we have an idea whether there is anything better than the RMR for defensive use and the DP Pro for competition.

TCB
06-19-2019, 06:14 PM
Can’t wait to see what the next generation of PMRDO brings to the table. Seems like the ground work has pretty much been laid.

YVK
06-19-2019, 06:26 PM
"Limited division" and "Ameriglo sights" have become interesting concepts again.

GJM
06-19-2019, 06:27 PM
If I was designing a handgun red dot, I would:

1) offer a choice of two display sizes, one optimized for competition, and another for defense.

2) have at least six month battery life, and an easy to change battery compartment. The DP Pro battery compartment is excellent, and neither the SRO nor Acro battery compartments are as good. Wouldn’t go smaller than a 2032 battery, unless it wouldn’t cut into the six months of life.

3) have an RMR/SRO style auto-manual set-up with dedicated up and down buttons. I am nervous of motion detectors that sleep the optic. Probably need auto or sleep to make battery life.

4) consider BUIS compatibility, which for example, is tough with the DP Pro. Allowing the smallest possible BUIS optimizes usable display.

5) offer +/- a 3 and 6 moa dot size.

6) if possible use the Acro style mounting arrangement, so you have a large screw and cross bolt rather than screws we all eventually strip. This could pave the way for a QD or at least quick to remove optic.

theJanitor
06-19-2019, 06:46 PM
If I was designing a handgun red dot, I would:

1) offer a choice of two display sizes, one optimized for competition, and another for defense.

2) have at least six month battery life, and an easy to change battery compartment. The DP Pro battery compartment is excellent, and neither the SRO nor Acro battery compartments are as good. Wouldn’t go smaller than a 2032 battery, unless it wouldn’t cut into the six months of life.

3) have an RMR/SRO style auto-manual set-up with dedicated up and down buttons. I am nervous of motion detectors that sleep the optic. Probably need auto or sleep to make battery life.

4) consider BUIS compatibility, which for example, is tough with the DP Pro. Allowing the smallest possible BUIS optimizes usable display.

5) offer +/- a 3 and 6 moa dot size.

6) if possible use the Acro style mounting arrangement, so you have a large screw and cross bolt rather than screws we all eventually strip. This could pave the way for a QD or at least quick to remove optic.

in the months and weeks leading up to the ACRO debut, the whole internet was crazy about enclosed emitters. It's not on your list, though.

For ME, all I wanted my type1 RMR to have is a top mounted battery, and MAYBE a little taller window, otherwise I'm happy with my RM06

TCB
06-19-2019, 07:01 PM
I wonder if some sort of crystal shroud (like the material they use for good watch faces, not what is on the end of wizard staffs) (although if it takes some sort of wizardry to produce the ideal PMRDO I’m in) could be developed to enclose the emitter / lens area of a RMR type optic? The enclosed emitter thing is important to a segment of the shooting world as is being able to survive hard falls.

GJM
06-19-2019, 07:18 PM
I would love a closed emitter design, as long as it came with an otherwise good feature set.

Darryl Bolke thinks Aimpoint could have used the Acro mounting system on a micro, to facilitate use on a pistol, and probably have been better off.

farscott
06-19-2019, 07:48 PM
I wonder if some sort of crystal shroud (like the material they use for good watch faces, not what is on the end of wizard staffs) (although if it takes some sort of wizardry to produce the ideal PMRDO I’m in) could be developed to enclose the emitter / lens area of a RMR type optic? The enclosed emitter thing is important to a segment of the shooting world as is being able to survive hard falls.

I assume the watch crystal material is synthetic sapphire. If so, I would suggest something like Corning's Gorilla Glass. The synthetic sapphire is very scratch resistant, but it is brittle. It tends to fracture quite spectacularly when it fails. Gorilla Glass survives phones pretty darn well and is a good transmitter of light.

LittleLebowski
06-19-2019, 08:03 PM
To say that I’m disappointed that the pistol mounted RDS forum moderator hasn’t reviewed the Holosun HS507c (https://amzn.to/2Fm5e4z) is an understatement.

Moderator status: under review

:D

littlejerry
06-19-2019, 08:58 PM
To say that I’m disappointed that the pistol mounted RDS forum moderator hasn’t reviewed the Holosun HS507c (https://amzn.to/2Fm5e4z) is an understatement.

Moderator status: under review

:D

I'm honestly much more excited about Holosun products vs any of the legacy companies these days.

ssb
06-19-2019, 09:21 PM
I gave up and went RMR Type 2 today. It looks to be the least-bad option for EDC. For me, the flaws are the bottom-load battery, the BUIS obstructing much of an already-small window, and the reports of loss of emitter window. I'd take an enclosed emitter but it's not a priority for my use - the optic will be under a shirt or indoors or at at an outdoor range in decent weather for 98% of my shooting, the remaining 2% being the rain I seem to encounter at training courses.

The ACRO battery life is a disappointment, but to be honest I still feel like I would've gone RMR anyway because of the profile of the optic.

Sigfan26
06-19-2019, 09:23 PM
To say that I’m disappointed that the pistol mounted RDS forum moderator hasn’t reviewed the Holosun HS507c (https://amzn.to/2Fm5e4z) is an understatement.

Moderator status: under review

:D

He needs to use his title and call Holosun to get a 508T to review.


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ArgentFix
06-20-2019, 01:16 AM
Here is my thinking as of mid June 2019 ...

This is why I subscribe here. Thank you, GJM.

Dagga Boy
06-20-2019, 01:38 AM
SHOT Show 2012 I was wearing this concealed under a polo shirt AIWB the entire show.....I really wish people would have maybe taken my input on the subject. Mark Housel and I ruined at least one slide and it took a year to get this right. Sadly, I was dismissed as not having any knowledge on the process by multiple places in the industry and sort of gave up and now I just eat popcorn and watch dumpster fires.

BWT
06-20-2019, 02:11 AM
SHOT Show 2012 I was wearing this concealed under a polo shirt AIWB the entire show.....I really wish people would have maybe taken my input on the subject. Mark Housel and I ruined at least one slide and it took a year to get this right. Sadly, I was dismissed as not having any knowledge on the process by multiple places in the industry and sort of gave up and now I just eat popcorn and watch dumpster fires.

Alright, I’m curious. What is the thinking with the additional barrel length?

GJM
06-20-2019, 08:20 AM
To say that I’m disappointed that the pistol mounted RDS forum moderator hasn’t reviewed the Holosun HS507c (https://amzn.to/2Fm5e4z) is an understatement.

Moderator status: under review

:D

I knew I was forgetting an optic! My wife and I have three Holosun 507 units between us.

They fit an RMR footprint, and are they are less expensive than the Trijicon/Acro. My first one broke in just a few days, while the one on my wife’s number four Glock 34 continues to run. On my replacement 507, I have a big scratch on the lens. The only other optic I have that has scratched like that is an RMS, where a piece of brass hit the lens and made a small divot.

Overall, they seem less desirable than an RMR for carry, but with a display small enough to not make them great for competition. My experience suggests quality is hit or miss, and the lens is susceptible to scratching. Up/down buttons are very small.

Tom Duffy
06-20-2019, 08:22 AM
I find myself wondering what the next generation RMR is going to look like. While I have no problem with the width of the optic, I'd really like a taller window to facilitate picking up the dot initially. My 2 Type 2s see limited use since they're not mounted on match type guns, but my Type 1 just keeps chugging along.

GJM
06-20-2019, 08:24 AM
Headed off today for a three day match with a bunch of friends shooting CO. My wife is bringing four optics (note we focus on slides with optics as opposed to pistols). I have just two, since the SRO, which was my number three failed, but I have a third DP Pro pre zeroed with me. My friend, Rich, loaned me a 320 X5/to try in practice, but got nervous only having two pistols with him, so he will have three. YVK has two and some spare stuff. Talionis only has one VP9, but I told him that was too risky so I am bringing along a VP9/DP Pro slide so he has back-up. That is the state of red dot competition sights today!

UNK
06-20-2019, 08:39 AM
Having been forced into trifocals I was really hoping, like many others I’m sure, this was going to be the year of the dot.
I bought a pistol specifically for this project but unfortunately it sits in the safe unused.
Looking at a vehicle purchase this year and reading reviews it looks like this phenomena of products released with problems is not specific to the firearms industry.
At least there is progress in the RDS market and one consolation is there should be a glut of reconditioned optics available this year.
GJM If Leuopold’s next gen sight fixes the reliability issues would it not be visble as a ccw optic? Are those available now or soon?

Gio
06-20-2019, 09:14 AM
I've been saying it for years, but RDS are just not ready for prime time duty use yet.

Lots of high speed, low drag, low coefficient of friction units (DoD special operations and LE SWAT) are literally forcing the adoption of RDS because they are addicted to the flat range accuracy they get from an RDS, but it's a fad not unlike those same units all adopting 1911 pistols in the late 90's-early 2000's with all the drawbacks of those as mass issue duty weapons. When you think about the intended use of a duty pistol for these units as a backup/insurance policy, it makes no sense to add a significant mode of failure to it.

I think as a concealed carry or plain clothes option for shooters (especially enthusiasts who will keep up with battery changes and checking zero on occasion) with aging eye sight, an RMR is viable and low enough risk of failure if you have separate training and carry guns that you can get away with it. For a mass issue, "let's give this to 36 SWAT operators and only issue them one pistol/optic," it's a bad idea waiting for a disastrous consequence. For reference, I was one of the "enthusiasts" trying to get my team of non-enthusiast operators to change their recoil spring and firing pin spring once a year on their 1911's, and doing that was like pulling teeth.

JAH 3rd
06-20-2019, 09:16 AM
I know we are talking pistols here. Only shot a red dot once on a pistol and it showed me how jittery I was when aiming. I have a couple of Vortex red dots on two different rifles/carbines. Personal preference here, but I look for a dot that has a red/green combo as well as a couple of dot sizes. I do this because I am new to the dot sight concept and like options.

LittleLebowski
06-20-2019, 09:50 AM
I've been saying it for years, but RDS are just not ready for prime time duty use yet.

Lots of high speed, low drag, low coefficient of friction units (DoD special operations and LE SWAT) are literally forcing the adoption of RDS because they are addicted to the flat range accuracy they get from an RDS, but it's a fad not unlike those same units all adopting 1911 pistols in the late 90's-early 2000's with all the drawbacks of those as mass issue duty weapons. When you think about the intended use of a duty pistol for these units as a backup/insurance policy, it makes no sense to add a significant mode of failure to it.

I think as a concealed carry or plain clothes option for shooters (especially enthusiasts who will keep up with battery changes and checking zero on occasion) with aging eye sight, an RMR is viable and low enough risk of failure if you have separate training and carry guns that you can get away with it. For a mass issue, "let's give this to 36 SWAT operators and only issue them one pistol/optic," it's a bad idea waiting for a disastrous consequence. For reference, I was one of the "enthusiasts" trying to get my team of non-enthusiast operators to change their recoil spring and firing pin spring once a year on their 1911's, and doing that was like pulling teeth.

Damn, what a solid post.

LockedBreech
06-20-2019, 09:56 AM
I've been saying it for years, but RDS are just not ready for prime time duty use yet.

Lots of high speed, low drag, low coefficient of friction units (DoD special operations and LE SWAT) are literally forcing the adoption of RDS because they are addicted to the flat range accuracy they get from an RDS, but it's a fad not unlike those same units all adopting 1911 pistols in the late 90's-early 2000's with all the drawbacks of those as mass issue duty weapons. When you think about the intended use of a duty pistol for these units as a backup/insurance policy, it makes no sense to add a significant mode of failure to it.

I think as a concealed carry or plain clothes option for shooters (especially enthusiasts who will keep up with battery changes and checking zero on occasion) with aging eye sight, an RMR is viable and low enough risk of failure if you have separate training and carry guns that you can get away with it. For a mass issue, "let's give this to 36 SWAT operators and only issue them one pistol/optic," it's a bad idea waiting for a disastrous consequence. For reference, I was one of the "enthusiasts" trying to get my team of non-enthusiast operators to change their recoil spring and firing pin spring once a year on their 1911's, and doing that was like pulling teeth.

For the last few months I was really gung-ho on finally getting an RDS setup, thinking of G45 MOS. That changed when I started actually exploring the options. Like you said, there seems to be a major drawback of just about every one on the market, and even the very best ones the best you can get for battery life or reliability is "It'll probably work."

So I took a second to re-evaluate how and why I use handguns, and I ended up deciding that if I ever do an RDO, it'll just be for a range/gaming gun, not serious use. I have enough years on various iron sight setups that I am instantly comfortable with my currently preferred Ameriglo CAPs, and you have to have fairly back luck to have a good set of loctited irons fail you. The "why add a mode of failure" logic in your post was exactly what talked me out of it.

UNM1136
06-20-2019, 10:29 AM
I've been saying it for years, but RDS are just not ready for prime time duty use yet.

Lots of high speed, low drag, low coefficient of friction units (DoD special operations and LE SWAT) are literally forcing the adoption of RDS because they are addicted to the flat range accuracy they get from an RDS, but it's a fad not unlike those same units all adopting 1911 pistols in the late 90's-early 2000's with all the drawbacks of those as mass issue duty weapons. When you think about the intended use of a duty pistol for these units as a backup/insurance policy, it makes no sense to add a significant mode of failure to it.

I think as a concealed carry or plain clothes option for shooters (especially enthusiasts who will keep up with battery changes and checking zero on occasion) with aging eye sight, an RMR is viable and low enough risk of failure if you have separate training and carry guns that you can get away with it. For a mass issue, "let's give this to 36 SWAT operators and only issue them one pistol/optic," it's a bad idea waiting for a disastrous consequence. For reference, I was one of the "enthusiasts" trying to get my team of non-enthusiast operators to change their recoil spring and firing pin spring once a year on their 1911's, and doing that was like pulling teeth.

As much as I hate to admit it, as a patrol cop, yes...And also yes. That said I am trying to get my agency to approve my Glock 17.4 MOS with an RMR. My aging eyes shift every year...how long before an RDS is a "reasonable accommodation" for aging cops?

pat

HeavyDuty
06-20-2019, 10:30 AM
I started down the RDS path for two reasons - my eyes. This getting old crap ain’t for sissies.

I’m putting my toe in the water with a 19.5 MOS and a RMR, if it works out I’ll have my carry 26.5 direct milled for an RMR, too. I don’t see myself putting a RDS on more than these two at this point. I do have high hopes the ACRO will shake out, that was my initial choice for the 19.

Trukinjp13
06-20-2019, 10:58 AM
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190620/d147bd0ada689050b8cd2902233162f8.jpg

Guess you can call me lucky. My junk still works. Thousands of rounds through it and has been all over this country in multiple environments. Was done by Atei in December of 2017. Will keep carrying happily along until otherwise.


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David S.
06-20-2019, 11:14 AM
As it stands in June 2019,

The RMR is the Glock 19 of pistol mounted optics.

Prove me wrong.

;)

Gio
06-20-2019, 11:29 AM
As it stands in June 2019,

The RMR is the Glock 19 of pistol mounted optics.

Prove me wrong.

;)

I've personally seen multiple RMR's go down. Type 2's and RM06's. Dot's fade or disappear altogether. They almost without fail lose zero internally after a drop. Usually zero returns after a few shots fired down range. I guess if the first couple rounds after a drop don't matter to you it's good to go.

Bart Carter
06-20-2019, 11:34 AM
My eyes are no longer what they were when I was younger. I even need different glasses when I run a mill, read a magazine or TIG weld. I feel confident that with iron sights I am proficient with my pistol at 7 yards for C zone hits. Not so much using the sights for a perfect sight picture, but for helping to align the pistol with a NPOA.

So, for me, a MRD is my current and future choice. Currently I have Vortex Venoms on several pistols. Maybe not the best choice for rock testing, but with tens of thousands of rounds, I have never experienced a problem. This is to the point that I feel confident to carry with a Venom.

As another benefit, training with a MRD has made me a better shooter. My presentation to NPOA is better because the dot has to be there, you don't align two different points to get on target.

LittleLebowski
06-20-2019, 11:51 AM
I've personally seen multiple RMR's go down. Type 2's and RM06's. Dot's fade or disappear altogether. They almost without fail lose zero internally after a drop. Usually zero returns after a few shots fired down range. I guess if the first couple rounds after a drop don't matter to you it's good to go.

I've seen the same with my RMR, the dot disappears and I have to whack it to bring it back. I've bent the battery contacts, got the appropriate plate installed, good batteries, etc.

GJM
06-20-2019, 01:17 PM
If you take the articles written on the 1911, which describe them as enthusiast choices requiring extra attention, you could probably substitute”red dot” for “1911” and be spot on.

Dagga Boy
06-20-2019, 01:39 PM
Alright, I’m curious. What is the thinking with the additional barrel length?

It looks smooth, but is actually threaded under a smooth thread protector. It was made for me years ago and has a matching can that was left at my old agency. I carried it at SHOT with a regular barrel and non extended magazines.

LOKNLOD
06-20-2019, 01:46 PM
Man. I'd really like to spend some time with a red dot. I think it would be an interesting challenge and benefit my iron shooting. So what's the default recommendation in June 2019?

Sounds like despite recent releases my best bet may still be a type 2 RMR.

Is there a factory optics-cut gun worth a crap? Just slap it on a MOS glock? Any optics-cut DA/SA guns worth a darn? I haven't really wanted to mess with milling one...

Quotron
06-20-2019, 01:57 PM
I would love a closed emitter design, as long as it came with an otherwise good feature set.

Darryl Bolke thinks Aimpoint could have used the Acro mounting system on a micro, to facilitate use on a pistol, and probably have been better off.

I don't have direct experience with a slide mounted Micro, but it appears from reading that they are prone to suffer rheostat failures - some say within 10,000 rounds.

Mr_White
06-20-2019, 02:10 PM
SHOT Show 2012 I was wearing this concealed under a polo shirt AIWB the entire show.....I really wish people would have maybe taken my input on the subject. Mark Housel and I ruined at least one slide and it took a year to get this right. Sadly, I was dismissed as not having any knowledge on the process by multiple places in the industry and sort of gave up and now I just eat popcorn and watch dumpster fires.

What are you gonna do with a dumpster fire if not pop some popcorn and watch? :)


Headed off today for a three day match with a bunch of friends shooting CO. My wife is bringing four optics (note we focus on slides with optics as opposed to pistols). I have just two, since the SRO, which was my number three failed, but I have a third DP Pro pre zeroed with me. My friend, Rich, loaned me a 320 X5/to try in practice, but got nervous only having two pistols with him, so he will have three. YVK has two and some spare stuff. Talionis only has one VP9, but I told him that was too risky so I am bringing along a VP9/DP Pro slide so he has back-up. That is the state of red dot competition sights today!

FWIW, I'm still shooting irons and I'm bringing four pistols so I can be sure not to run out. ;)

GJM and many others have harangued me endlessly about getting a dot. I've had irons fail too, but at the moment I do feel like they are probably a better bet than any of the available dots. The real reason I have stuck with irons is that my eyes are still doing ok with them (who know how long that will last though) and it seems to me that red dots on pistols are SUCH a work in progress, that I don't want to spend any money or energy investing in technology that is surely going to be eclipsed in the coming several years. I'm sure I will jump on the red dot train eventually; I'm just holding out as long as I can.

Mr_White
06-20-2019, 02:12 PM
Man. I'd really like to spend some time with a red dot. I think it would be an interesting challenge and benefit my iron shooting. So what's the default recommendation in June 2019?

Sounds like despite recent releases my best bet may still be a type 2 RMR.

Is there a factory optics-cut gun worth a crap? Just slap it on a MOS glock? Any optics-cut DA/SA guns worth a darn? I haven't really wanted to mess with milling one...

If it's going to be used as a trainer only, then I don't think any of the issues discussed matter much. If I got a dot today, that is what it would be for me, and I'd set it up as cheaply and expediently as possible. So that probably would mean simply getting an MOS gun and an optic that was a pretty good price and calling it good.

Bart Carter
06-20-2019, 03:00 PM
...Is there a factory optics-cut gun worth a crap? Just slap it on a MOS glock? Any optics-cut DA/SA guns worth a darn? I haven't really wanted to mess with milling one...

Well, HK, Glock, Walther and Springfield have proven models with plates that accommodate most MRDs. Do you have a favorite?

There are also manufacturers that offer a plate that replaces the rear sight for MRD mounting. Probably the cheapest way to test the waters. I have no research on those, but you could Google.

Maca
06-20-2019, 03:54 PM
Zero issues in 5k+ rounds through a 19x with rm06 type 2, milled by atei.

Yes, my early type1 had a connectivity issue which were fixed by trijicon. My other RMRs have never had any issues.

What’s the statistical probability of being involved in a shooting as a civilian? And then compound the probability of a dot dying at the same time... not likely.

What’s clearly evident is that shooting around barricades and from odd positions, the dot is faster than irons. It’s also faster for any small target beyond 15 yards.

And if the dot does go out, I have irons for backup.

Anyone convinced that dots are a fad need to spend a day on a non flat range to see the remarkable benefits the technology offers.

Trukinjp13
06-20-2019, 03:59 PM
Man. I'd really like to spend some time with a red dot. I think it would be an interesting challenge and benefit my iron shooting. So what's the default recommendation in June 2019?

Sounds like despite recent releases my best bet may still be a type 2 RMR.

Is there a factory optics-cut gun worth a crap? Just slap it on a MOS glock? Any optics-cut DA/SA guns worth a darn? I haven't really wanted to mess with milling one...

I really like the CZ optics ready setup if you do not need to stay with a specific platform. They have good ergos, a great trigger, Glock sized pistols, reliable, and inexpensive. They come with good buis and the dot is low in the slide for being a factory option. Find a OR CZ and a rmr 2 on sale. You will be gtg for a minimal investment considering.


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Jim Watson
06-21-2019, 03:14 PM
Anyone convinced that dots are a fad need to spend a day on a non flat range to see the remarkable benefits the technology offers.

I think it takes more than a day. A friend has dawdled with one and sees no advantage. People I know who have gotten serious for a while are getting real results.

David S.
06-21-2019, 03:24 PM
The slow fire accuracy came pretty quick, but it took me 6 months of daily dry practice to really get the speed back to irons. At least a half hour each day running a specific dry fire program.

Gio
06-21-2019, 09:16 PM
And if the dot does go out, I have irons for backup.

Anyone convinced that dots are a fad need to spend a day on a non flat range to see the remarkable benefits the technology offers.

Yea it’s faster at distance and small targets and great on the range. That’s why competition shooters have been using them since the early 90’s. The problem is they don’t really offer any advantage inside 15 yards where most gunfights happen, and they add a massive failure mode to the pistol of something that could go wrong. I think they’re fine for concealed carry use by an enthusiast who maintains and monitors their own equipment, but they are still a poor choice for serious duty use and mass issue.

Trukinjp13
06-21-2019, 11:12 PM
Yea it’s faster at distance and small targets and great on the range. That’s why competition shooters have been using them since the early 90’s. The problem is they don’t really offer any advantage inside 15 yards where most gunfights happen, and they add a massive failure mode to the pistol of something that could go wrong. I think they’re fine for concealed carry use by an enthusiast who maintains and monitors their own equipment, but they are still a poor choice for serious duty use and mass issue.

I would disagree. Inside 15 yards it has some pretty big advantages for me. Most of which are definitely not the flat range. But moving, behind cover, from awkward positions, one handed dominant or not, it is much easier to make hits with the mrds than irons.

I guess if we are talking about a gunfight where we are squared up and no one is moving and there is no obstructions or obstacles to worry about then it probably is not that much better.




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miller_man
06-22-2019, 06:06 AM
I would disagree. Inside 15 yards it has some pretty big advantages for me. Most of which are definitely not the flat range. But moving, behind cover, from awkward positions, one handed dominant or not, it is much easier to make hits with the mrds than irons.

I guess if we are talking about a gunfight where we are squared up and no one is moving and there is no obstructions or obstacles to worry about then it probably is not that much better.




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Also, to mention one of the biggest advantages at any distance with the dot - target focused shooting.

GJM
06-22-2019, 07:21 AM
For me, there were two keys to regaining close in speed with the red dot on a pistol.

1) realize you don’t need to bring the dot into the scoring zone, and hold it steady — you just need to release the shot with the dot somewhere in the scoring zone.

2) you need to be visually patient, and look for the dot on close targets, rather than point or index shoot. That second point may seem opposite, but up close, waiting to see the dot speeds me up.

Dave Williams
06-22-2019, 07:44 AM
George I'm interested to see what you can do with the RMR. I feel like if you really made a commitment to it you'd do just as well as anything else. Last summer I was getting acclimated to a red dot and shot about 10 Rogers tests with a G34 MOS with an RM02. I topped out at 102, but made tons of errors. I feel like I could have done an advanced score with more dry fire and commitment. I was used to a g19 so the 34 wasn't indexing for me very well.

Rc217
06-22-2019, 08:15 AM
I don’t think professionals are only looking for flat range accuracy. I think the points here mentioned about shooting from cover or awkward positions are very valid. Additionally, shooting from a shield, gas mask, or nvg’s is much easier with a red dot. Shooting with strong or weak hand only is also improved for individuals like K9 handlers. There is also the additional benefit of a target focus with both eyes open vice a hard front sight focus (I realize many effectively shoot irons with both eyes open but many shooters do not). I also believe there is value for a plainclothed officer or civilian for that matter who is present during an active shooter or similar event. They would have a more effective weapon with more range and accuracy from cover. With all of that being said, I don’t think it is a great idea to just allow large numbers of individuals to mount any rds they can get their hands on because it does take a level of maintenance, practice, and dedication that they may not understand up front or fail to accomplish for the sake of having what is new.

Trukinjp13
06-22-2019, 09:52 AM
I don’t think professionals are only looking for flat range accuracy. I think the points here mentioned about shooting from cover or awkward positions are very valid. Additionally, shooting from a shield, gas mask, or nvg’s is much easier with a red dot. Shooting with strong or weak hand only is also improved for individuals like K9 handlers. There is also the additional benefit of a target focus with both eyes open vice a hard front sight focus (I realize many effectively shoot irons with both eyes open but many shooters do not). I also believe there is value for a plainclothed officer or civilian for that matter who is present during an active shooter or similar event. They would have a more effective weapon with more range and accuracy from cover. With all of that being said, I don’t think it is a great idea to just allow large numbers of individuals to mount any rds they can get their hands on because it does take a level of maintenance, practice, and dedication that they may not understand up front or fail to accomplish for the sake of having what is new.

Your last point is huge. And why it piggybacks what GJM said about replacing it with 1911. It does take dedication and training to truly grasp all the benefits and downsides. And honestly with the problems some have. The bigger the department the bigger the possibility for failures.




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Rc217
06-22-2019, 10:52 AM
Your last point is huge. And why it piggybacks what GJM said about replacing it with 1911. It does take dedication and training to truly grasp all the benefits and downsides. And honestly with the problems some have. The bigger the department the bigger the possibility for failures.




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I completely agree. When I was first exposed to red dots on pistols I adapted to it quickly and felt like everyone should have one immediately. At this point I would still choose to have it for myself but would be against a department level policy that just lets everyone mount whatever optic they want, however they want, and simply pass a static qual to start carrying on duty.

GJM
06-22-2019, 03:50 PM
I have shot an RMR enough to form an opinion — that I like the RMR more than iron sights but less than other optics with a larger display for performance shooting.

I believe, circa June 2019, the red dot is not ready for adoption by mainstream LE users. Enthusiast users and specialized personnel yes, but a train wreck in the making for whole departments. Hopefully the optics become more mature, and widespread adoption makes sense soon when their value/performance approaches what an Aimpoint on a rifle offers.

Trukinjp13
06-22-2019, 04:15 PM
I hope the updated deltapoint pro turns out gtg. But it took Leupold a long time to get here.

The Acro really needs a improved battery situation and extending the hood to better protect the glass.

The SRO may have simply just been released too soon. Trijicon should hopefully have the main issues rectified and ready for the RMR 3.0

The RMR type 2 is and will be the best bet for concealed carry and possibly even duty. But maybe have spares available.

I have high hopes that one way or another we will get to a point where we can fully trust and agree on a option. The good thing is companies are making more and more. And we the end users are breaking them to show what needs fixed. We may all have different uses and what our expectations may be. But all data points should be taken seriously. This is how a truly great product is built. I personally can not see one optic that will check every box for everyone. But we all deserve the right fit for us.




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Gadfly
06-22-2019, 04:16 PM
HSI has tested pistol red dots twice. Allegedly on round 3... first two times, none passed endurance testing (10k rounds). Third test? I am not holding my breath...

The Dots on rifles are bigger, sturdier, and don’t get slammed at 10 Gs every round...

I expect in our lifetime we will get there. Just not yet.


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Clark Jackson
06-22-2019, 06:33 PM
Yea it’s faster at distance and small targets and great on the range. That’s why competition shooters have been using them since the early 90’s. The problem is they don’t really offer any advantage inside 15 yards where most gunfights happen, and they add a massive failure mode to the pistol of something that could go wrong. I think they’re fine for concealed carry use by an enthusiast who maintains and monitors their own equipment, but they are still a poor choice for serious duty use and mass issue.

Disagree.

karmapolice recently shot "Advanced" using an MRDS in a standardized and objectively scored course, which has a lot of targets closer than 15-yards.

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?37059-Unplanned-ACRO-and-Glock-plus-Surefire-durability-test&p=894923&viewfull=1#post894923

Gio
06-22-2019, 11:30 PM
Disagree.

karmapolice recently shot "Advanced" using an MRDS in a standardized and objectively scored course, which has a lot of targets closer than 15-yards.

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?37059-Unplanned-ACRO-and-Glock-plus-Surefire-durability-test&p=894923&viewfull=1#post894923

But would he really not have made advanced with irons?

My agency recently asked me to document some actual performance data comparing the two. Here’s some from this weeks range session: g17 with dpp and g34 with irons. So far I don’t see the difference inside 15.

Each drill shot 4x each
7 yd bill drill (all A’s)
G34 avg: 1.63
RDS avg: 1.68

15 yd bill drill
G34 avg: 2.07
RDS avg 2.03

25 yd bill drill
G34 avg: 2.78 (avg 4A/2C, no clean runs)
RDS avg: 2.51 (avg 5A/1C and a few clean runs)

7 yd FAST
G34 avg: 3.78
RDS avg: 3.81

10 yd El Pres:
G34 avg: 4.47, avg 10A/2C
RDS avg: 4.48, avg 10A/2C

Accelerator drill (2-2-2 reload 2-2-2 on 5-15-25 yd target)
G34: 5.51 avg. 9A/3C
RDS: 5.42 avg 10A/2C
Speed on the 25 yd target was definitely faster for RDS

25 yd doubles drill:
G34: avg .35 splits with 70-75% A’s
RDS: avg .32 splits with ~80% A’s.

HCM
06-23-2019, 12:46 AM
HSI has tested pistol red dots twice. Allegedly on round 3... first two times, none passed endurance testing (10k rounds). Third test? I am not holding my breath...

The Dots on rifles are bigger, sturdier, and don’t get slammed at 10 Gs every round...

I expect in our lifetime we will get there. Just not yet.


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They will fail until someone, who is someone in DC decides they want one, then they will magically pass.

GJM
06-23-2019, 08:36 AM
I don’t believe that you can extrapolate from the experiences of karmapolice or Gio to the general population of shooters, and make a definitive statement on the difference in performance with a red dot vs iron sights. There are a number of variables in play including what tests are chosen, shooter skill level, lighting conditions and shooter eyesight.

I look at the red dot evaluation as involving three main different variables.

1) speed. With less red dot experience, shooters are typically faster up close with iron sights, and at somewhere around 10-15 yards, they become progressively faster with a red dot as the distances increase. Greater experience with the red dot brings that crossover distance closer, and ultimately may even it out completely up close. However at longer distances, the red dot will always be faster, and it is why we don’t see shooters using iron sights in open class.

2) accuracy. Less experienced shooters will be more accurate with a red dot, once the shooter understands wobble, as the dot takes less skill, since it is a single aiming point. At somewhere around 10-15 yards, the red dot becomes an accuracy advantage for all shooters. With reduced light, cross eye dominance, or older eyes, the red dot becomes even a greater advantage.

3) technology. Here is where the red dot suffers. While speed with the dot is a training issue, and red dot accuracy gains are nearly a given, the technology is where the rubber meets the road. As we have discussed in this thread, the red dot is expensive, requires an enthusiast level of attention, and the available choices are not as reliable as the service pistols they ride on.

ranger
06-23-2019, 09:04 AM
Agreed with GJM - heard same arguments in USPSA about red dots in open and simultaneously optics in the Army. With enough customer demand, the RDS market will improve. We no longer wonder if our rifle RDS will fail.

I remember my first optic equipped Open pistol (single stack 38 Super) with a "Awesome Dawson" scope mount specifically designed to facilitate swapping the TASCO PDP3 RDS - back in those days we had similar failures with RDS.

1Rangemaster
06-23-2019, 10:11 AM
I have had experience with Rogers ranges. I can state that there is a learning curve to RDS, but once the work is done, the shooting is subjectively easier and objectively more accurate. Case in point: I have cleaned, for example, a Rogers exercise where the weapon starts with 6 rounds loaded. “Failure drill” on first two targets, a reload, and three plates further down range engaged. I’ve done it with iron sights and an ACRO. Subjectively, the ACRO string “felt” easier; objectively hits were more centered.
I’d add to GJMs list the fact that the sighting is different-that is, focus on target and not have to move eye focus back and forth.
I’m in agreement that the RDS require a dedicated user.

Clark Jackson
06-23-2019, 11:32 AM
But would he really not have made advanced with irons?

My agency recently asked me to document some actual performance data comparing the two. Here’s some from this weeks range session: g17 with dpp and g34 with irons. So far I don’t see the difference inside 15.

I'm sure he would have made Advanced with irons because an MRDS doesn't make a bad shooter good. Similarly, I don't believe the MRDS makes a good shooter bad at under 15-yards. Hence the reason I used karmapolice's recent accomplishment as an example.

IMO, if you can improve your shooting >15-yards (some say >10-yards), and have no or negligible degradation of performance inside that distance real consideration should be given to utilizing that tool.

Gio, I'd be interested in seeing more of your data if you continue your agency's evaluation process and are able to share it.

I don't know your particular situation, but it would be cool if you could get two identical weapon platforms for your data collection and compare a closed emitter MRDS to an open one. I say this because I've heard there may be an advantage with the closed system (ACRO) in regards to dot acquisition over non-enclosed competitors.

I've heard a lot of variance (which is okay) on the time investment with dry-fire required to become proficient with dot acquisition prior to attempting a side-by-side with irons. I'm interested what your dry-fire regimen looked like with your MRDS prior to your data collection and if you are continuing how it differs from your iron sights dry-fire regimen.

What is your take on the time needed (approximately) before an individual can really do a good A/B comparison on their personal performance?

GJM
06-23-2019, 11:51 AM
I had heard the Acro’s closed emitter design offered an advantage in acquiring the dot, but I have not observed it. The number one advantage of the closed emitter for me is all weather capability, and the number two for me, is that the Acro doesn’t accumulate debris like the “ash tray” that open emitters become.

Trukinjp13
06-23-2019, 10:01 PM
Spent some time out with the type 2 today. 400 more rounds shot. Dot still works as advertised. I did try something I have never tried. While it has taken hits before and there was never a issue. After reading a comment about losing zero after a big hit it peaked my interest. I tried to drop it on a hard object a few times and instantly shot. It never faltered. I felt like a moron to be honest but I wanted to make sure I was not blowing smoke from defending mine.

It really does make shooting anywhere past 10 yards fun. The biggest advantage to me is shooting on the move or from cover. I shot right and left handed from a few positions as well. Shade or direct sunlight. It makes it damn easy to make good hits. I am never one that has done well past 15 yards. With the dot I can make consistent and accurate groups. At one point I could not miss at 35 yards on steel. Something with irons I would have great difficulty to make consistently.

I agree that someone who is truly great with irons will not see as big of a difference. But I still believe that even they will be faster and more accurate when you leave the flat range and shoot more dynamically.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190624/599020780e1699b9cf92f79224e38530.jpg


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BigT
06-24-2019, 06:18 AM
Some of my own observations on the dots themselves and what they do.

I've had one shield become unworkable due to cleaning it wrong and turning the lens frosted.

The other one is working fine so far after a thousand odd rounds but like other auto adjustable dots becomes unusable in conjunction with a wml.

I've had two DPP's go down. Both with the motion sensor failing. I still really like the DPP for its visibility and its biggest issue for me on a carry gun is the sail of a front BUIS making most holsters a challenge.

I've popped a lens on a Docter optics model C and seen a few others pop. I've also broken a battery connection off on a Docter IPSC, though the others I'm seeing are working alright so far.

Everyone I know with any manner of Vortex has had them fail with any sort of real use.

So far my Holosun 507C is running well at 4500 rounds. The ones I've heard of failing seem to die quickly, but it does seem rare. A buddy is running a green dot one and that is very interesting to me for the same reason I use green fibres in iron sights.

Still early days with my ACRO as its on my match gun not the beater. The enclosed emitter does seem to help protect it from washout when the sun is just in the wrong place. The small lens may get it moved from that gun though. Battery life is a problem. I had a battery fail after only two months. With it living switched off in the safe most of the time.

I've found the dot to be an advantage at all distances. Once of course I had put the work in to learn it. Its not slower at close range but does offer better accuracy at speed. Its faster and more accurate at distance and more forgiving on tight shots. And the greater Situational Awareness of not taking focus back to the front of my gun is appealing.

Reliability isn't 100% yet, but then again I've seen enough broken iron sights to know they're not perfect either. I think it was Chuck Pressburg who said that currently with dots we are still in a place that we role the dice and take the gamble that the dot doesn't fail in the middle of your gunfight. Its a gamble I am willing to take even with them not being perfect.

LittleLebowski
06-24-2019, 06:21 AM
Some of my own observations on the dots themselves and what they do.

I've had one shield become unworkable due to cleaning it wrong and turning the lens frosted.

The other one is working fine so far after a thousand odd rounds but like other auto adjustable dots becomes unusable in conjunction with a wml.

I've had two DPP's go down. Both with the motion sensor failing. I still really like the DPP for its visibility and its biggest issue for me on a carry gun is the sail of a front BUIS making most holsters a challenge.

I've popped a lens on a Docter optics model C and seen a few others pop. I've also broken a battery connection off on a Docter IPSC, though the others I'm seeing are working alright so far.

Everyone I know with any manner of Vortex has had them fail with any sort of real use.

So far my Holosun 507C is running well at 4500 rounds. The ones I've heard of failing seem to die quickly, but it does seem rare. A buddy is running a green dot one and that is very interesting to me for the same reason I use green fibres in iron sights.

Still early days with my ACRO as its on my match gun not the beater. The enclosed emitter does seem to help protect it from washout when the sun is just in the wrong place. The small lens may get it moved from that gun though. Battery life is a problem. I had a battery fail after only two months. With it living switched off in the safe most of the time.

I've found the dot to be an advantage at all distances. Once of course I had put the work in to learn it. Its not slower at close range but does offer better accuracy at speed. Its faster and more accurate at distance and more forgiving on tight shots. And the greater Situational Awareness of not taking focus back to the front of my gun is appealing.

Reliability isn't 100% yet, but then again I've seen enough broken iron sights to know they're not perfect either. I think it was Chuck Pressburg who said that currently with dots we are still in a place that we role the dice and take the gamble that the dot doesn't fail in the middle of your gunfight. Its a gamble I am willing to take even with them not being perfect.

Excellent post. I've been saying for 10 years that I'll wait for the next generation of red dots. I'm continuing with that.

Hambo
06-24-2019, 07:06 AM
What are you gonna do with a dumpster fire if not pop some popcorn and watch? :)

True, but the popcorn usually has a funky taste from all the smoke.


I've had irons fail too, but at the moment I do feel like they are probably a better bet than any of the available dots.

92F front sight FTW. You can't improve them, but they never fly off. ;)


Thanks for all the updates and beta testing GJM. Until you post a serious winner I'll be the guy over in the corner putting orange paint on front sights.

GJM
06-24-2019, 07:14 AM
Excellent post. I've been saying for 10 years that I'll wait for the next generation of red dots. I'm continuing with that.

I had this exact discussion with Gabe over the weekend. While that makes perfect sense from a technology perspective, it doesn’t take into consideration the learning curve with a dot. I am still learning, but it takes years not months.

Minor miracle, but nobody on our squad had a dot failure over a three day match. That was one SRO and three DP Pros, two of which were the prototype ruggedized Pro units. Maybe this is the moment that dots have become reliable. ;)

Will be checking my Acro battery as soon as I get home to see it — went on high intensity a week ago Friday.

David S.
06-24-2019, 07:16 AM
Steve Anderson says that shot calling is much easier with a RDS than iron sights. Having struggled for years with the concept, it's one of major the reasons I started playing with the dot. I've found his statement to be 100% accurate for me, and it might be the number one benefit of the system inside 15 yards.

HeavyDuty
06-24-2019, 07:23 AM
Some of my own observations on the dots themselves and what they do.

I've had one shield become unworkable due to cleaning it wrong and turning the lens frosted.

The other one is working fine so far after a thousand odd rounds but like other auto adjustable dots becomes unusable in conjunction with a wml.

I've had two DPP's go down. Both with the motion sensor failing. I still really like the DPP for its visibility and its biggest issue for me on a carry gun is the sail of a front BUIS making most holsters a challenge.

I've popped a lens on a Docter optics model C and seen a few others pop. I've also broken a battery connection off on a Docter IPSC, though the others I'm seeing are working alright so far.

Everyone I know with any manner of Vortex has had them fail with any sort of real use.

So far my Holosun 507C is running well at 4500 rounds. The ones I've heard of failing seem to die quickly, but it does seem rare. A buddy is running a green dot one and that is very interesting to me for the same reason I use green fibres in iron sights.

Still early days with my ACRO as its on my match gun not the beater. The enclosed emitter does seem to help protect it from washout when the sun is just in the wrong place. The small lens may get it moved from that gun though. Battery life is a problem. I had a battery fail after only two months. With it living switched off in the safe most of the time.

I've found the dot to be an advantage at all distances. Once of course I had put the work in to learn it. Its not slower at close range but does offer better accuracy at speed. Its faster and more accurate at distance and more forgiving on tight shots. And the greater Situational Awareness of not taking focus back to the front of my gun is appealing.

Reliability isn't 100% yet, but then again I've seen enough broken iron sights to know they're not perfect either. I think it was Chuck Pressburg who said that currently with dots we are still in a place that we role the dice and take the gamble that the dot doesn't fail in the middle of your gunfight. Its a gamble I am willing to take even with them not being perfect.

Any observations on the RMR? That seems to be the most commonly used RDS right now outside of competition.

BigT
06-24-2019, 07:31 AM
Any observations on the RMR? That seems to be the most commonly used RDS right now outside of competition.


We don't have that many guys using them hard here. The dude with the green Holosun had a Dual illumination RMR fail. And I see a few at matches , but as a rule they're not super popular on match guns because of the small lens.

That said Our last two Production Optics Level 3 matches have been won by a shooter with an RMR. But that shooter is a beast.

Most of the non competition shooters I know using them aren't putting on massive rounds counts. Ive not used one personally for more than a couple shots.

txsapper
06-24-2019, 07:36 AM
Based on everything coming out on all the forums, what is the general consensus? Stick with the RMR/RMR2 for duty/hard use and wait for the Acro to get the battery issues resolved (if that will ever happen), or go with the Acro and just work through the battery issues. Both seem to be durable for duty use.

Also, if the tint on the glass seems to be an issue with battery life/usage in bright light, has anyone thought about putting a small piece of light colored window tint on the glass and see if that helps?


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BigT
06-24-2019, 08:01 AM
Based on everything coming out on all the forums, what is the general consensus? Stick with the RMR/RMR2 for duty/hard use and wait for the Acro to get the battery issues resolved (if that will ever happen), or go with the Acro and just work through the battery issues. Both seem to be durable for duty use.

Also, if the tint on the glass seems to be an issue with battery life/usage in bright light, has anyone thought about putting a small piece of light colored window tint on the glass and see if that helps?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

For now I would personally lean towards an Acro with a monthly battery change and a good BUIS

In fact as soon as I can convince GLOCK to sell MOS slides separately I will do exactly that.

TCB
06-24-2019, 07:16 PM
For now I would personally lean towards an Acro with a monthly battery change and a good BUIS

In fact as soon as I can convince GLOCK to sell MOS slides separately I will do exactly that.

Yup, I’ve personally had to power wash my pistol clean (I was covered head to toe in a lot of mud) after working a group I’m a very muddy field and another time IN the Rio Grande when the water was low and the mud was deep. I did some drills the other day with the front lense of the ACRO totally occluded and had no problems making good hits at 25 yards and with it totally off my BUIS were very useable. A quick wipe to the rear lense to be able to see the dot is fairly easy with a finger or even your tongue if your hands / gloves are super muddy and I’m going to do some more experimenting with both lenses occluded and try out the Sage Dynamics guy’s trick of putting a witness line on the top of the optic as a windage reference. Once we get enough data on the battery life of the ACRO on its different settings a maintenance schedule should be fairly easy to work up. And again...can’t wait for the #nextgenPMO to come out, but I believe it’s close enough to start seriously training and employing them.

Gio
06-24-2019, 08:33 PM
I'm sure he would have made Advanced with irons because an MRDS doesn't make a bad shooter good. Similarly, I don't believe the MRDS makes a good shooter bad at under 15-yards. Hence the reason I used karmapolice's recent accomplishment as an example.

IMO, if you can improve your shooting >15-yards (some say >10-yards), and have no or negligible degradation of performance inside that distance real consideration should be given to utilizing that tool.

Gio, I'd be interested in seeing more of your data if you continue your agency's evaluation process and are able to share it.

I don't know your particular situation, but it would be cool if you could get two identical weapon platforms for your data collection and compare a closed emitter MRDS to an open one. I say this because I've heard there may be an advantage with the closed system (ACRO) in regards to dot acquisition over non-enclosed competitors.

I've heard a lot of variance (which is okay) on the time investment with dry-fire required to become proficient with dot acquisition prior to attempting a side-by-side with irons. I'm interested what your dry-fire regimen looked like with your MRDS prior to your data collection and if you are continuing how it differs from your iron sights dry-fire regimen.

What is your take on the time needed (approximately) before an individual can really do a good A/B comparison on their personal performance?

I have access to a dpp and an rmr at the moment and will get an SRO in the near future. I’m working on getting an acro sent to me as well for testing. My agency does very detailed and scientific testing of the actual optics themselves, but I’ve been asked to informally provide input on performance as an end user/shooter.

For me it took less than one dry fire session to transition to an RDS and be able to hit identical times on basic weapon handling drill. Im sure it helped I had a solid index already developed, and I can see how shooters without that index could have trouble finding the dot. To me though, the transition was not a problem at all. I think to do a good comparison your 7 yard drill times need to be identical. If you can draw to an A zone in .9 with irons but it takes 1.2 with an rds, you probably won’t be able to conduct a meaningful performance evaluation yet.

Don’t get me wrong, I am the first to want to squeeze every tiny performance advantage out of my duty setup. My issue with rds in general though is I don’t think it provides a real advantage in 99% of gun fights based on statistics and actual gun fighting/shooting reviews, which makes the potential risk of failure worth it. There are of course outliers, and I can point to a handful of real world shootings at >25 yds with a pistol where an rds could have made a difference. I’m hopeful we’re knocking on the door of that kind of optic reliability, but I am also disappointed in all the negative reports of these new 2019 optics.

With regard to nvg’s and optics, my experience has been that an IR laser is a much more user friendly aiming method with nvg’s than anything else. With the new TLR1 VIR release, I would go that route on a pistol for dedicated nvg use.

BigT
06-25-2019, 10:06 AM
So My Shield RMS is getting replaced under warranty

The lens is cracking where it meets the frame.

870 rounds in.

JodyH
06-25-2019, 07:14 PM
Trijicon RMR dual illuminated still working perfectly match after match after match on my wife's PPQ Q5.
The Dual illuminated RMR on my 19X has been 100% despite quite a bit of deliberate abuse.
Third dual illuminated RMR on my Glock-a-RONI has again been 100%.

Trijicon SRO serial #1148 was dead on arrival, even after trying multiple new batteries it refused to come on. Sent it back to Trijicon two weeks ago, it's currently scheduled to be back in my grubby little paws tomorrow.

I still consider pistol mounted dot sights to be toys at this stage in their development.

LOKNLOD
06-26-2019, 08:08 PM
Trijicon RMR dual illuminated still working perfectly match after match after match on my wife's PPQ Q5.
The Dual illuminated RMR on my 19X has been 100% despite quite a bit of deliberate abuse.
Third dual illuminated RMR on my Glock-a-RONI has again been 100%.

Trijicon SRO serial #1148 was dead on arrival, even after trying multiple new batteries it refused to come on. Sent it back to Trijicon two weeks ago, it's currently scheduled to be back in my grubby little paws tomorrow.

I still consider pistol mounted dot sights to be toys at this stage in their development.

Which size/shape/color dot are your dual-illums?

Jeff22
06-27-2019, 02:54 AM
"realize you don’t need to bring the dot into the scoring zone, and hold it steady — you just need to release the shot with the dot somewhere in the scoring zone."

I have about 3200 rnds through an RMR06 series 3 on a Glock 34, including a one day class at the Vortex Academy and a two day class with Modern Samurai Project.

I think RDS sights offer a huge advantage in shadowy lighting conditions to those of us with old eyes.

The RDS are authorized as options at both departments I work at. A mix of Trijicon RMRs and various Vortex RDS. It will be interesting to see how this works out over time. None of those people shoot as much as I do.

I'm an instructor and most of the people I instruct have Glocks with iron sights. For that reason I have not switched for duty use.

One of my USPSA shooting buddies just put a Trijicon SRO on one of his guns. It'll be interesting to see how that works out for him over time.

Bart Carter
06-27-2019, 08:57 AM
...Everyone I know with any manner of Vortex has had them fail with any sort of real use....

Well, I have shot in excess of 20,000 rounds with my Vortex Venoms. Over 10K with one. I just replaced my 1st one that I physically damaged by putting my pistol through a narrow portal and it got hit upon recoil. The Vortex warranty can't be beaten. They didn't care that it was my fault, they sent me a brand new one within a couple of days.

I average 1 or two matches every weekend. I have yet to see a Vortex go down. I have friends with Vortexes and don't know of any that have failed. I was surprised to see a Vortex on a Tactical Performance Center's instructor last time I was there.

It is impossible to know real failure rates. The manufacturers sure won't tell us. Even if they did, you don't know the kind of use the optics have. I know of no optic that has had a zero failure rate.

Just another viewpoint, YMMV.

JodyH
06-27-2019, 10:33 AM
Which size/shape/color dot are your dual-illums?
9moa green dot.
Best color for the typical background in my area (desert southwest).
The dual illuminated dot doesn't have the "bloom" that a red dot has and the 9moa isn't nearly as big as it sounds in actual use.
I've found that my 2.5moa SRO red dot appears much larger than it is and the RMR dual illum green dot appears much smaller and I find no difference in them under actual use outside of extreme accuracy tests (say 1" dots at 10Y) and even then I have to manually dim my 2.5moa to see any advantage.
My primary use is for USPSA carry optics and it'd have to be one hell of a small target for a max brightness (bright direct sunlight) 9moa to obscure and the washout issues the dual illuminated are prone to in low light is a non factor at the range.

btw: Trijicon replaced my dead on arrival SRO with a brand new one (serial number 1000 higher) and I spent an hour this morning zeroing and playing with it.

Right now i'm in a holding pattern of just playing with dot sights on pistols.
Maybe in another generation or two of refinement the SRO/ACRO/HE508T will be where I'm good with switching over to them completely.

OldRunner/CSAT Neighbor
06-27-2019, 02:08 PM
9moa green dot.
Best color for the typical background in my area (desert southwest).
The dual illuminated dot doesn't have the "bloom" that a red dot has and the 9moa isn't nearly as big as it sounds in actual use.
I've found that my 2.5moa SRO red dot appears much larger than it is and the RMR dual illum green dot appears much smaller and I find no difference in them under actual use outside of extreme accuracy tests (say 1" dots at 10Y) and even then I have to manually dim my 2.5moa to see any advantage.
My primary use is for USPSA carry optics and it'd have to be one hell of a small target for a max brightness (bright direct sunlight) 9moa to obscure and the washout issues the dual illuminated are prone to in low light is a non factor at the range.

btw: Trijicon replaced my dead on arrival SRO with a brand new one (serial number 1000 higher) and I spent an hour this morning zeroing and playing with it.

Right now i'm in a holding pattern of just playing with dot sights on pistols.
Maybe in another generation or two of refinement the SRO/ACRO/HE508T will be where I'm good with switching over to them completely.

Jody thx for the MOA info. etc. & keep us updated on the SRO as I used my 2.5 moa SRO in a USPSA match Sun. for the 1st time w/ zero issues & *something* def. improved my shooting vs. my previously used Vortex Venom.

Clark Jackson
07-04-2019, 11:48 AM
I've been saying it for years, but RDS are just not ready for prime time duty use yet.

Lots of high speed, low drag, low coefficient of friction units (DoD special operations and LE SWAT) are literally forcing the adoption of RDS because they are addicted to the flat range accuracy they get from an RDS, but it's a fad not unlike those same units all adopting 1911 pistols in the late 90's-early 2000's with all the drawbacks of those as mass issue duty weapons. When you think about the intended use of a duty pistol for these units as a backup/insurance policy, it makes no sense to add a significant mode of failure to it.

I think as a concealed carry or plain clothes option for shooters (especially enthusiasts who will keep up with battery changes and checking zero on occasion) with aging eye sight, an RMR is viable and low enough risk of failure if you have separate training and carry guns that you can get away with it. For a mass issue, "let's give this to 36 SWAT operators and only issue them one pistol/optic," it's a bad idea waiting for a disastrous consequence. For reference, I was one of the "enthusiasts" trying to get my team of non-enthusiast operators to change their recoil spring and firing pin spring once a year on their 1911's, and doing that was like pulling teeth.

+1. Good post.

I absolutely agree that mass issuance is "a bad idea waiting for a disastrous consequence." Well said. Given current technology the applicability for self-defense use favors concealed carry enthusiasts.

Current optic/mounting solution pricing pushes most non-enthusiasts out of the conversation. I think this is a good thing. However, that free-market rudder is useless when a mass issuance is introduced.

I don't have a ton of time on a PMRDS, but I do have a few thousand rounds on a DPP and much less on a few other big brands. Despite the ruggedness, I am not a fan of the RMR2. The window size, parallax issues, and disappearing dot with polarized sunglasses = no bueno for me. I'm sure I could practice my way out of disliking the RMR2... if I had to, but I don't so I won't. :cool:

I am a fan of the DPP window and battery compartment. I'm not a fan of auto-sleep or a design that allows water to pool over the emitter.

For me, the PMRDS is an advantage for shooting on the move, shooting from unconventional/awkward positions, and for shooting faster/more accurately at distances beyond 7-yards. When shooting closer (7-yards and in) I like the PMRDS for high-percentage shots, but the off-set can make low-percentage shots less fun.

The PMRDS may do a lot of things well, but it absolutely will not magically transform a bad shooter into a good shooter. I think there is a fair amount of people who want a mass issuance because of the perception PMRDS use turns lead into gold, and/or because the PMRDS provides the user a bat-signal for verification of sub-culture legitness.

As an aside Gio, I would add one more fad item your list:
1) 1911
2) PMRDS
3) Crye Multicam everything.

The same collective mindset that pushes for premature adoption of technology similarly advocates for LE use of multicam uniforms. Outside of highly specific circumstances where operationally necessary this it is just another example of 4TM. (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?37208-Trying-to-Touch-the-Magic-4TM) The same is true for emergent technologies like PMRDS.

David S.
07-05-2019, 07:38 AM
The RDS simplifies one of the marksmanship fundamentals. To some degree, I believe that makes shooting easier.

"Magically makes you a good shooter" is a straw man.

JHC
07-08-2019, 09:35 AM
https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2019/07/08/romeozero/


"SIG offers a reasonably-priced solution to the dilemma. The ROMEOZero will be less than an inch wide – about .9″. It’s also only 1.6″ long. I didn’t weigh it, but it can’t be more than an ounce with the battery because it uses what SIG refers to as a “Weapons Grade” polymer housing. It will feature a SpectraCoat HD lens, and offer 8 selectable brightness settings. Brilliantly, the ROMEOZero will have rear sights integrated into the back of the optic itself, thus, iron sight use is still an option if the optic goes down or is turned off. And in spite of the fact that this optic will be assembled in the USA, it will have an MSRP of $199.99."

"Importantly, the ROMEOZero will have a 20,000 hour battery life using a CR1632 battery."

"Tentatively speaking, this unit will ship this summer, possibly before the end of July."



39916

Up1911Fan
07-08-2019, 10:26 AM
https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2019/07/08/romeozero/


"SIG offers a reasonably-priced solution to the dilemma. The ROMEOZero will be less than an inch wide – about .9″. It’s also only 1.6″ long. I didn’t weigh it, but it can’t be more than an ounce with the battery because it uses what SIG refers to as a “Weapons Grade” polymer housing. It will feature a SpectraCoat HD lens, and offer 8 selectable brightness settings. Brilliantly, the ROMEOZero will have rear sights integrated into the back of the optic itself, thus, iron sight use is still an option if the optic goes down or is turned off. And in spite of the fact that this optic will be assembled in the USA, it will have an MSRP of $199.99."

"Importantly, the ROMEOZero will have a 20,000 hour battery life using a CR1632 battery."

"Tentatively speaking, this unit will ship this summer, possibly before the end of July."



39916

Fingers crossed that it's ccw reliable. I woukd like to put a small rds on a 43X to compliment my 19/RMR.

GJM
07-08-2019, 02:31 PM
On a number of the 320 models, Sig has an optics plate that incorporates the rear sight, making me wonder about their BUIS strategy. Having a rear sight on the optic that plays with the front sight already on the pistol is a great solution. Hope it works in practice.

I finally was able to order another SRO today, and look forward to receiving and shooting it.

OldRunner/CSAT Neighbor
07-08-2019, 03:51 PM
On a number of the 320 models, Sig has an optics plate that incorporates the rear sight, making me wonder about their BUIS strategy. Having a rear sight on the optic that plays with the front sight already on the pistol is a great solution. Hope it works in practice.

I finally was able to order another SRO today, and look forward to receiving and shooting it.

Will the next one be a 5 MOA & any updates on your Boss's SRO or your bud that has two?

GJM
07-08-2019, 03:54 PM
Will the next one be a 5 MOA & any updates on your Boss's SRO or your bud that has two?

I haven’t been able to find a 5 moa SRO yet. My wife hasn’t been shooting her SRO, as it has been on a Glock and she has been shooting an X5 lately. Friend’s SRO is over 6,500 and going strong.

OldRunner/CSAT Neighbor
07-08-2019, 04:03 PM
I haven’t been able to find a 5 moa SRO yet. My wife hasn’t been shooting her SRO, as it has been on a Glock and she has been shooting an X5 lately. Friend’s SRO is over 6,500 and going strong.

Looking forward to your feedback & also good to hear on your buds. Shot my 2nd USPSA w/ mine Sat., a 3G on Sun w/ zero issues in all 3 matches but I'm not a high rd. count fella w/ only 500 rds. thus far.

GJM
07-08-2019, 04:11 PM
Looking forward to your feedback & also good to hear on your buds. Shot my 2nd USPSA w/ mine Sat., a 3G on Sun w/ zero issues in all 3 matches but I'm not a high rd. count fella w/ only 500 rds. thus far.

My gut says the SRO will be good, as long as you don’t routinely bounce the optic on rocks, but we will all know a lot more in six months.

JHC
07-08-2019, 06:17 PM
Range report

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2019/07/08/tfb-review-sig-sauer-romeozero/


"A final observation was that even on a day with intermittent clouds conversely paired with blinding sunlight the ROMEOZero’s dot remained very crisp and spherical as one would only hope. It did not “bleed” or look fuzzy even in bright sunlight. I appreciated this a lot because I have played with a lot of red dots that obviously work well in low light and become next to useless in bright light situations."

CLaw
07-08-2019, 07:03 PM
My gut says the SRO will be good, as long as you don’t routinely bounce the optic on rocks, but we will all know a lot more in six months.

GJM, did you have an early report of an STO failing to hold zero? If so, do you have an update on this issue?

OldRunner/CSAT Neighbor
08-02-2019, 04:35 PM
" The unmodified DP Pro is a real crap shoot. Some people report crazy high round counts, but my wife and I have broken 31 of them, making them hard to depend on. The three prototype ruggedized ones we have are working well, so with Leupold set to standardize those changes soon, the Pro may still be the gaming optic of choice. "

C&P'd this from GJM's first post in this thread as I'm WTB two of the *ruggedized* DPP's, have they been released yet & if so anyone know where you can find them @ something less than MSRP?

GJM
08-02-2019, 04:44 PM
" The unmodified DP Pro is a real crap shoot. Some people report crazy high round counts, but my wife and I have broken 31 of them, making them hard to depend on. The three prototype ruggedized ones we have are working well, so with Leupold set to standardize those changes soon, the Pro may still be the gaming optic of choice. "

C&P'd this from GJM's first post in this thread as I'm WTB two of the *ruggedized* DPP's, have they been released yet & if so anyone know where you can find them @ something less than MSRP?

Soon (tm)

OldRunner/CSAT Neighbor
08-02-2019, 05:16 PM
Soon (tm)

I can wait & will attempt to throttle back the other DPP buyer, an LE TL that just got back from SIG's 2 day PMO instructor class w/ his Capt. & wants one for his game STI Marauder.

They both are very skilled shooters & already have been T&E'ing RMR's as they *may* transition the tact. team first to RMRs then depending on other factors *could* roll out PMO's to patrol deputies.

Clark Jackson
08-03-2019, 09:00 AM
I can wait & will attempt to throttle back the other DPP buyer, an LE TL that just got back from SIG's 2 day PMO instructor class w/ his Capt. & wants one for his game STI Marauder.

They both are very skilled shooters & already have been T&E'ing RMR's as they *may* transition the tact. team first to RMRs then depending on other factors *could* roll out PMO's to patrol deputies.

This tact team first mindset is so confusing. I'll start a separate thread so I don't derail this one too much, but this concept of "tact team first and maybe later other people" appears to be quite pervasive. If an MRDS has evolved to the point of being reliable enough for "tact team" use I would argue it's reliable enough for anyone in the LE or civilian worlds. MIL might be a slightly different story.

cpd2110
08-04-2019, 07:59 PM
This tact team first mindset is so confusing. I'll start a separate thread so I don't derail this one too much, but this concept of "tact team first and maybe later other people" appears to be quite pervasive. If an MRDS has evolved to the point of being reliable enough for "tact team" use I would argue it's reliable enough for anyone in the LE or civilian worlds. MIL might be a slightly different story.

The tac team first can be a positive thing. Typically they shoot more than anyone on the department. They also take outside classes and do more training that would show issues. Those issues whether equipment or end user can be addressed before the rest of the agency gets mrds. In my agency all firearms instructors are or were SWAT. This has proven a good thing for us as we teach guns and tactics. It is proven if SWAT officers struggle with a new tactic or piece of equipment then your average non-tactical officer will struggle more. In my agency swat getting something first isn’t have and have nots, it’s working the kinks out before it goes live for all. We just did this with a new taser we are now deploying. Very different from the old ones. Experienced officers had issues and questions that new officers don’t know to ask.

GJM
08-04-2019, 08:48 PM
This tact team first mindset is so confusing. I'll start a separate thread so I don't derail this one too much, but this concept of "tact team first and maybe later other people" appears to be quite pervasive. If an MRDS has evolved to the point of being reliable enough for "tact team" use I would argue it's reliable enough for anyone in the LE or civilian worlds. MIL might be a slightly different story.

Let’s take the Tac team discussion to a sub forum other than the red dot sub forum, as this particular thread and the whole sub forum are focused on red dot equipment and technique.

Thanks,

George

GJM
08-04-2019, 09:05 PM
My SRO is performing great. Approaching 5,000 rounds, still on the original battery. The windage and elevation witness marks have not moved. This is a 2.5 moa model, and I have a 5 moa one waiting for a direct milled P10F slide to return from Primary Machine. I use it in auto and manual — probably should get the manual out again and refresh myself on the lock out and in modes.

kmanick
08-04-2019, 09:19 PM
Just mounted my 5MOA SRO on my Shadow 2 tonight. Will zero it tomorrow night and run some drills with it.
I'll post thoughts and pics tomorrow night after I shoot with it , for those that may be interested.

Lon
08-04-2019, 09:22 PM
Approaching 5,000 rounds, still on the original battery.

Not sure that really tells us anything about battery life. That’s like, what? 2 days of shooting for you? 😎

That’s jealously rearing it’s ugly head.

BigT
08-05-2019, 07:00 AM
Some info points

My Acro has had the same battery in it since the 15th of June. Its been on my carry gun since the beginning of April with normal carry brightness adjustments. Still going strong though I will be replacing it soon as preventative maintenance. Battery is a Panasonic.

A shooter we have long term testing the Noblix (new name for Docter) IPSC model passed 4000 rounds this weekend on a Toni systems dovetail mount on a Shadow 2

Aray
08-05-2019, 09:52 AM
As it stands in June 2019,

The RMR is the Glock 19 of pistol mounted optics.

Prove me wrong.

;)

I just printed out the return label to return my RM06 to Trijicon for the second time. I got back from repair the first time last November. I have trust issues.

HeavyDuty
08-05-2019, 04:55 PM
I just printed out the return label to return my RM06 to Trijicon for the second time. I got back from repair the first time last November. I have trust issues.

What issues are you seeing?

Aray
08-06-2019, 08:32 AM
What issues are you seeing?

Dot goes on and off randomly during recoil. Blink blink.

Jay Cunningham
08-06-2019, 08:35 AM
Dot goes on and off randomly during recoil. Blink blink.

That's a feature not a bug so as to catch your attention. If it just boringly stayed illuminated, you'd lose interest.

HeavyDuty
08-06-2019, 10:42 AM
Dot goes on and off randomly during recoil. Blink blink.
Is this the latest version? I thought they had that issue resolved.

I have a brand new RMR waiting for my 19.5 MOS to arrive, hopefully this week.

Aray
08-07-2019, 06:09 AM
Is this the latest version? I thought they had that issue resolved.

I have a brand new RMR waiting for my 19.5 MOS to arrive, hopefully this week.

Gen 1

s0nspark
08-07-2019, 06:37 AM
Gen 1

I assume you are employing the usual tweaks? (tape shims, adjust the battery contact)

My Gen 1 was similarly Blinky until I dialed in enough tape on the battery.

I was very conservative when adjusting the battery contact, as I tend to break things without meaning to ;-)

HeavyDuty
08-08-2019, 08:46 AM
Gen 1

Ok, mine is Gen 2.

GJM
08-08-2019, 12:44 PM
Red dot pistol optics and their mounting interfaces mean more sized things to come loose. Not as a replacement for a dedicated driver set on the bench, but my wife found this to carry in our shooting bag, and it seems to cover the sizes we encounter.

41082

GJM
08-10-2019, 09:45 PM
The SRO (https://amzn.to/2Z0DyJw) continues to perform well. In fact, it has been working well enough, that I have started taking it for granted that it will work. Dot has been durable, battery lasts, controls are intuitive, auto mode adjusts well, and manual mode works as expected. The display is large enough that I have no complaints. Will be interesting how many rounds it lasts.

HCM
08-10-2019, 10:37 PM
Red dot pistol optics and their mounting interfaces mean more sized things to come loose. Not as a replacement for a dedicated driver set on the bench, but my wife found this to carry in our shooting bag, and it seems to cover the sizes we encounter.

41082

Amazon link https://www.amazon.com/Wheeler-Multi-Tool-Gunsmithing-Maintenance-Convenient/dp/B07794SK15/ref=sr_1_46?crid=14S04ZB0LGNA7&keywords=wheeler+gunsmithing+tools&qid=1565494427&s=gateway&sprefix=Wheeler+%2Caps%2C169&sr=8-46

miller_man
08-11-2019, 09:33 AM
The SRO continues to perform well. In fact, it has been working well enough, that I have started taking it for granted that it will work. Dot has been durable, battery lasts, controls are intuitive, auto mode adjusts well, and manual mode works as expected. The display is large enough that I have no complaints. Will be interesting how many rounds it lasts.

Getting almost desperate waiting for mine to come in :mad:. Glad to hear more good things about it.

OldRunner/CSAT Neighbor
08-11-2019, 01:36 PM
The SRO (https://amzn.to/2Z0DyJw) continues to perform well. In fact, it has been working well enough, that I have started taking it for granted that it will work. Dot has been durable, battery lasts, controls are intuitive, auto mode adjusts well, and manual mode works as expected. The display is large enough that I have no complaints. Will be interesting how many rounds it lasts.

Sim. results here w/ my SRO but my rd. count now is only 1250+ after a short Jedlinski refresher class plus 1 steel, one 3G & 3 USPSA matches using it. All w/ the original batt. but it get's powered down when not in use so ......

kmanick
08-11-2019, 03:08 PM
The SRO (https://amzn.to/2Z0DyJw) continues to perform well. In fact, it has been working well enough, that I have started taking it for granted that it will work. Dot has been durable, battery lasts, controls are intuitive, auto mode adjusts well, and manual mode works as expected. The display is large enough that I have no complaints. Will be interesting how many rounds it lasts.
I 'm only at 800 rounds but mine has been perfect so far. No movement on the adjustment screws at all , the dot is clear and sharp and very bright at higher settings.
I'm shooting walls of steel down in Rhode Island next weekend, my first match with it, I will probably put another 2-300 rounds through it before then and re check
adjustment settings but I really have no reason to think it's not going to deliver at this point.
Still using battery that was in it wehn delivered, I power it down when not in use, but I also carry batteries with me in my range bag, so not worried there.
So far so good :cool:

GJM
08-12-2019, 08:20 PM
My slide came back from Primary and I start using the 5 moa SRO tomorrow.

41270

41271

kmanick
08-12-2019, 09:14 PM
Some pics on the shadow 2

https://i.imgur.com/ubn7ExL.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/R4sGrnN.jpg
plenty of clearance from the port
https://i.imgur.com/sQmemMp.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/8pX8GB3.jpg

Bucky
08-13-2019, 04:13 PM
Some pics on the shadow 2

https://i.imgur.com/ubn7ExL.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/R4sGrnN.jpg
plenty of clearance from the port
https://i.imgur.com/sQmemMp.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/8pX8GB3.jpg

Someday I’ll do something like this.

ranger
08-13-2019, 09:05 PM
Amazon link https://www.amazon.com/Wheeler-Multi-Tool-Gunsmithing-Maintenance-Convenient/dp/B07794SK15/ref=sr_1_46?crid=14S04ZB0LGNA7&keywords=wheeler+gunsmithing+tools&qid=1565494427&s=gateway&sprefix=Wheeler+%2Caps%2C169&sr=8-46

Mine just came in - very nice multi-tool for shooting bag

GJM
08-13-2019, 09:43 PM
Shot the SRO 5 moa today for the first time. Definitely prefer it to the 2.5 SRO and the DP Pro 2.5. Could see getting rid of a bunch of other red dots.

OldRunner/CSAT Neighbor
08-13-2019, 09:56 PM
All ears as I’m in need of another PMO (using a 2.5 SRO) for a new game pistola & then something closer to year end for a Staccato P DUO ..... hmmmm ...........

HeavyDuty
08-14-2019, 05:52 AM
Had my 19.5 MOS with RM07 out for the first time yesterday. I’m impressed so far - the larger dot of the 07 was a good choice for me. I can see going RDS on more guns...

kmanick
08-14-2019, 06:49 AM
Shot the SRO 5 moa today for the first time. Definitely prefer it to the 2.5 SRO and the DP Pro 2.5. Could see getting rid of a bunch of other red dots.


Really? you saw that much of a difference? I 've been on the fence about what size to gt for my M&P
maybe I'll just stick with the 5MA on both

Trigger
08-14-2019, 07:20 AM
Shot the SRO 5 moa today for the first time. Definitely prefer it to the 2.5 SRO and the DP Pro 2.5. Could see getting rid of a bunch of other red dots.

That sucking sound you hear is the national supply for SROs suddenly drying up.

GJM
08-14-2019, 07:41 AM
With a 2.5 it is common to increase the intensity of the dot to make the dot appear larger. That means you can’t run the optic on the auto setting of the SRO. Blooming the dot also makes the dot brighter relative to the target. My preference is to be looking at the targets, but still be able to quickly pick up the dot, and the 5 makes that easier for me. A larger dot also appears more stable to me.

flyrodr
08-14-2019, 09:41 AM
A larger dot also appears more stable to me.

I'm glad you said that! I have found myself thinking that I shoot a bit more accurately (when shooting groups) with a larger dot (5-6 MOA) than a smaller dot, and all I could figure was that I couldn't see as much wobble and thus tended to press the trigger more smoothly instead of seeing the smaller dot moving over the target center and "mini-jerking" the trigger.

STI
08-14-2019, 10:07 AM
Has someone put a SRO on a 43X and if so, are there pictures of it?

GJM
08-14-2019, 10:21 AM
Has someone put a SRO on a 43X and if so, are there pictures of it?

Just Google images of Dolly Parton and you will get a pretty good idea of what it would look like.

RAM Engineer
08-14-2019, 01:41 PM
Will a Glock previously milled for an RMR accept a SRO with it's front overhanging lens?

HeavyDuty
08-14-2019, 02:05 PM
That said, I anxiously await development of quality RDS to fit 43/48 sized weapons.

kmanick
08-14-2019, 02:56 PM
That said, I anxiously await development of quality RDS to fit 43/48 sized weapons.

Shield makes one now ....Quality? ......that's up for debate
https://www.shieldpsd.com/portfolio-posts/reflex-mini-sight-compact

dontshakepandas
08-14-2019, 03:07 PM
Will a Glock previously milled for an RMR accept a SRO with it's front overhanging lens?

Unless you have your rear iron sight forward of the optic then it should still work. If your iron sight is forward of the optic, you'd have to remove it for the SRO to work.

HeavyDuty
08-14-2019, 10:04 PM
Shield makes one now ....Quality? ......that's up for debate
https://www.shieldpsd.com/portfolio-posts/reflex-mini-sight-compact

I’ve heard of too many problems with these for me to consider the current generation. But, this along with the new Romeo Zero are movement in the right direction.

miller_man
08-16-2019, 03:13 PM
FINALLY have a 5 moa SRO in route to me. Eurooptic have them in stock (well, as of now) and for a good price too.

GJM
08-16-2019, 03:37 PM
FINALLY have a 5 moa SRO in route to me. Eurooptic have them in stock (well, as of now) and for a good price too.

$490 shipped, and I just got two more — best price I have seen.

https://www.eurooptic.com/Trijicon-SRO-Sight-Adjustable-LED-50-MOA-Red-Dot-SRO3-C-2500003.aspx

ranger
08-16-2019, 03:54 PM
Thanks - 1 on order. Now what to put it on? Will be reviewing options this weekend.

Norville
08-16-2019, 03:56 PM
$490 shipped, and I just got two more — best price I have seen.

https://www.eurooptic.com/Trijicon-SRO-Sight-Adjustable-LED-50-MOA-Red-Dot-SRO3-C-2500003.aspx


OK, there went $517 (with tax) in a hurry ;)


I just picked up a new DPP and shipped one back to Leupold last week.

GJM
08-16-2019, 03:56 PM
Thanks - 1 on order. Now what to put it on? Will be reviewing options this weekend.

Glock, P10 and 320 X5 Legion are the normal suspects.

ranger
08-16-2019, 03:59 PM
Glock, P10 and 320 X5 Legion are the normal suspects.

Agreed - those are the ones I am considering! MIL pricing on Glock and CZ P10 may push me their way.

kmanick
08-16-2019, 07:59 PM
$490 shipped, and I just got two more — best price I have seen.

https://www.eurooptic.com/Trijicon-SRO-Sight-Adjustable-LED-50-MOA-Red-Dot-SRO3-C-2500003.aspx

I was shooting walls of steel down in Rhode Island today when I got the email that EuroOptics got them back in stock
already sold out again :(
I wanted to pick up another one for my M&P 9L

Up1911Fan
08-16-2019, 11:09 PM
If my carry gun has an RMR, any reason not to put an SRO on a training gun or should I just stick with the RMR?

dontshakepandas
08-16-2019, 11:21 PM
If my carry gun has an RMR, any reason not to put an SRO on a training gun or should I just stick with the RMR?The only downside I can think of would be if you "abused" the larger window. The SRO will be a lot more forgiving of your presentation so even if it isn't perfect you'll still see the dot where the RMR could result in the dot outside the window. A sloppy draw when you have to pull your carry gun would be a bad time to learn that you've developed a bad habit.

If you plan to compete with the training gun also then the SRO may be the better option as you can always practice with the RMR occasionally or with dry fire.

If you aren't competing, will only be using it for training, and don't intend to move the carry gun to an SRO down the line I'd probably go with another RMR.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

HeavyDuty
08-17-2019, 07:08 AM
The only downside I can think of would be if you "abused" the larger window. The SRO will be a lot more forgiving of your presentation so even if it isn't perfect you'll still see the dot where the RMR could result in the dot outside the window. A sloppy draw when you have to pull your carry gun would be a bad time to learn that you've developed a bad habit.

If you plan to compete with the training gun also then the SRO may be the better option as you can always practice with the RMR occasionally or with dry fire.

If you aren't competing, will only be using it for training, and don't intend to move the carry gun to an SRO down the line I'd probably go with another RMR.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk
Beat me to it - my thoughts exactly.

flyrodr
08-17-2019, 03:46 PM
If my carry gun has an RMR, any reason not to put an SRO on a training gun or should I just stick with the RMR?

Well, having several RMR-equipped pistols, and having just recently put an SRO on one of them, what I found out was that I immediately wished I could replace a couple more. It's like going from looking out the peephole on the door to just opening the door and seeing everything out there. The view'll spoil you!

I'm thinking that the SRO's larger window will typically show the shooter that he can do better, and thus if using the RMR, the shooter can see if he can dig out a bit of speed/accuracy to get nearer the performance seen with the SRO.

Or something . . .

mrozowjj
08-18-2019, 03:26 AM
I'm a little out of the loop. What's all this talk about a newer Deltapoint?

mrozowjj
08-18-2019, 03:36 AM
9moa green dot.
Best color for the typical background in my area (desert southwest).
The dual illuminated dot doesn't have the "bloom" that a red dot has and the 9moa isn't nearly as big as it sounds in actual use.
I've found that my 2.5moa SRO red dot appears much larger than it is and the RMR dual illum green dot appears much smaller and I find no difference in them under actual use outside of extreme accuracy tests (say 1" dots at 10Y) and even then I have to manually dim my 2.5moa to see any advantage.
My primary use is for USPSA carry optics and it'd have to be one hell of a small target for a max brightness (bright direct sunlight) 9moa to obscure and the washout issues the dual illuminated are prone to in low light is a non factor at the range.

btw: Trijicon replaced my dead on arrival SRO with a brand new one (serial number 1000 higher) and I spent an hour this morning zeroing and playing with it.

Right now i'm in a holding pattern of just playing with dot sights on pistols.
Maybe in another generation or two of refinement the SRO/ACRO/HE508T will be where I'm good with switching over to them completely.

I've seriously thought about getting that 9 MOA green circle for years because I think green dots pop better.

kmanick
08-18-2019, 09:45 AM
"btw: Trijicon replaced my dead on arrival SRO with a brand new one (serial number 1000 higher) and I spent an hour this morning zeroing and playing with it."
in case anyone is tracking these for problems , mine is at #31XX (https://pistol-forum.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=31XX) zero problems as of yet, 1100 rounds through it so far. :cool:

Norville
08-19-2019, 04:06 PM
$490 shipped, and I just got two more — best price I have seen.

https://www.eurooptic.com/Trijicon-SRO-Sight-Adjustable-LED-50-MOA-Red-Dot-SRO3-C-2500003.aspx


Well, they charged my card but don’t have an SRO to ship me. No idea on next delivery.

Obviously their website does not reflect real time inventory. If you leave your money with them apparently you are in the queue for the next shipment. If you cancel you have your money refunded and take your chances on availability.

GJM
08-19-2019, 04:39 PM
Well, they charged my card but don’t have an SRO to ship me. No idea on next delivery.

Obviously their website does not reflect real time inventory. If you leave your money with them apparently you are in the queue for the next shipment. If you cancel you have your money refunded and take your chances on availability.

Sorry to hear that. I received tracking and my two are on the way.

Norville
08-19-2019, 05:21 PM
Sorry to hear that. I received tracking and my two are on the way.


I got a FedEx tracking update from a shipper in PA this morning. Thought it was the SRO, turns out to be refrigerator water filters via Amazon :D

ADK
08-21-2019, 06:27 PM
With a 2.5 it is common to increase the intensity of the dot to make the dot appear larger. That means you can’t run the optic on the auto setting of the SRO. Blooming the dot also makes the dot brighter relative to the target. My preference is to be looking at the targets, but still be able to quickly pick up the dot, and the 5 makes that easier for me. A larger dot also appears more stable to me.

GJM, in your opinion, does the 5 MOA dot allow you to reliably run in auto mode all the time? Does it work reliably in low/variable light? With my 2.5 MOA SROs, I have to set them one click down from full brightness during the day, two clicks down at night (for indoor lighting). The auto adjust goes entirely too dim/small indoors and in variable lighting conditions. With my 3.25 MOA Type 2 RMRs, auto mode provides adequate brightness in all but the most extreme differential lighting conditions (ie aiming into very bright distant area from very dark area). Whatcha think? Is the 5 MOA SRO auto mode "bet yo life" reliable in virtually all lighting conditions? (Asking only about the auto brightness aspect--I am fully aware that the SRO may break against objects that the RMR would break, or something like that.) Thanks!!!

Simong
08-21-2019, 07:15 PM
My first RDS, also got a Brownells G-19 slide with the window cut for RMR.
I hope my learning curve will be quick.

If all goes well a Trijicon RSO will follow.

Simong.

GJM
08-22-2019, 12:29 AM
GJM, in your opinion, does the 5 MOA dot allow you to reliably run in auto mode all the time? Does it work reliably in low/variable light? With my 2.5 MOA SROs, I have to set them one click down from full brightness during the day, two clicks down at night (for indoor lighting). The auto adjust goes entirely too dim/small indoors and in variable lighting conditions. With my 3.25 MOA Type 2 RMRs, auto mode provides adequate brightness in all but the most extreme differential lighting conditions (ie aiming into very bright distant area from very dark area). Whatcha think? Is the 5 MOA SRO auto mode "bet yo life" reliable in virtually all lighting conditions? (Asking only about the auto brightness aspect--I am fully aware that the SRO may break against objects that the RMR would break, or something like that.) Thanks!!!

I can’t answer all the questions you have.

I run the 5 SRO in auto almost exclusively for matches and practice. Inside the house, messing around in varying light conditions, it also seems fine to my eyes in auto. However, I don’t like bright things in my eyes and am sensitive to reflections. My wife and friend, Rich, prefer to run the SRO in manual, about one click up from auto in training and competition use. I like the 5 moa dot enough that I am about to sell my two 2.5 SRO units and standardize on the 5 moa units.

secondstoryguy
08-22-2019, 12:54 AM
I'm relatively new to the RDS game and have been running an ACRO on a G34 MOS for the last 5 months in a duty capacity (SWAT/Patrol). I've been pleased with it and believe that RDS offer more advantages than disadvantages for LEO applications. These advantages include making the pistol easier to shoot in general and extending the effective range of the handgun(often a patrol officers primary weapon), low-light effectiveness, and for SWAT use under NODs. These outweigh the fact that you have to keep them clean, train with them more often and ensure battery changes are done.

I do not, however, believe that they are ready for large scale blanket issue to patrol folk without more advances in technology and additional training. Our agency allows RDS sights on personally owned pistols but we require the individual to undergo additional formal training prior to using the weapon on duty.

I probably should have gone with a Type 2 RMR but I drank the cool aid too early and got the ACRO before I learned about battery life, however, I've had pretty good luck with the ACRO overall. I work 12 hour shifts and generally work about 16 days a month plus training days. My routine is to turn the sight down all the way on my days off and when I'm at home only turning it on when I go on duty. When I'm on duty its a few settings down from max which is generally a good balance for night work under white light (WML) and bright daylight. Using this technique and changing batteries every couple of months I have not had it go dead on me and changing batteries takes about a minute.

ranger
08-23-2019, 07:48 PM
Thanks - 1 on order. Now what to put it on? Will be reviewing options this weekend.

Well it is on order but none in stock and no ETA from Trijicon. Little disappointed in eurooptic ordering system. Will wait a few weeks. My optic plate for CZ P10 F is on back order too :(

ADK
08-24-2019, 10:55 AM
I can’t answer all the questions you have.

I run the 5 SRO in auto almost exclusively for matches and practice. Inside the house, messing around in varying light conditions, it also seems fine to my eyes in auto. However, I don’t like bright things in my eyes and am sensitive to reflections. My wife and friend, Rich, prefer to run the SRO in manual, about one click up from auto in training and competition use. I like the 5 moa dot enough that I am about to sell my two 2.5 SRO units and standardize on the 5 moa units.

Thanks GJM

kmanick
08-25-2019, 10:39 AM
Thanks GJM
I'm really liking the 5MOA as well, I've had 3,4, 6 and 8 MOA's from other vendors on all of my competition guns
this SRO dot is by far the sharpest and clearest I've come across so far.

Trukinjp13
08-25-2019, 02:09 PM
The Rmr type 2 (https://amzn.to/34gN1R2) is still working like new. I am really looking forward to the type 3. Hopefully it has a top change battery and adjustable intensity with lockout.

The consistency of the dot is awesome. Especially in transitions and on the move. My main gripe is the Glock. I think a p10c would be a step up for me with the mrds. Ergos and trigger are far better imho.

I did figure out my sticky mag problem with the magpuls are the tangodown grip plug/tool. The bases just barely drag. Which also explains why the tangodown will fall out during shooting. I have pulled the plug (hehe) but it did help fulfilling that grip.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190825/0e52d139d975a552ff981d22dc1b4910.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190825/ce3c3ca0690ddd7870fc3e5fb9ace7aa.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

RAM Engineer
09-01-2019, 04:29 PM
Holosun 508T Green Reticle on its way to me!

Lon
09-01-2019, 06:39 PM
Holosun 508T Green Reticle on its way to me!

Interested in a review of that when you get to it.

BigT
09-16-2019, 05:20 AM
I've just landed back from the European Handgun Champs in Serbia. Bloody brilliant match by the way.

Some observations. By DPP worked fine, though I had one instance of it being off when it shouldn't have been. Its possible but unlikely that I switched it off, though I suspect the motion sensor is going on this one. Its on about 9-10k rounds. It did eat a brand new duracell battery I put in it in four days of being on for 4-5 hours a day, which is much quicker than I've lost batteries before.

My buddies DPP shit the bed. This one had a motion sensor go at between 2-3k rounds and was sent back to Leupold for repair. Less than a 1000 rounds later the board has moved dramatically and he had to shoot half a 24 round stage point shooting. He is obviously unimpressed.

Same a fair amount of SRO's and Acros.

PO was won with a Shield.

GJM
09-16-2019, 05:44 AM
I've just landed back from the European Handgun Champs in Serbia. Bloody brilliant match by the way.

Some observations. By DPP worked fine, though I had one instance of it being off when it shouldn't have been. Its possible but unlikely that I switched it off, though I suspect the motion sensor is going on this one. Its on about 9-10k rounds. It did eat a brand new duracell battery I put in it in four days of being on for 4-5 hours a day, which is much quicker than I've lost batteries before.

My buddies DPP shit the bed. This one had a motion sensor go at between 2-3k rounds and was sent back to Leupold for repair. Less than a 1000 rounds later the board has moved dramatically and he had to shoot half a 24 round stage point shooting. He is obviously unimpressed.

Same a fair amount of SRO's and Acros.

PO was won with a Shield.

In my experience, anytime a Pro acts odd, it is failing, and I would pull it.

Norville
09-16-2019, 04:08 PM
In my experience, anytime a Pro acts odd, it is failing, and I would pull it.

I would agree. I’d swap it out before it lets you down in a match.

BigT
09-17-2019, 12:19 AM
Oh yeah mines going back at the same time as his, with instructions I want it replaced with the new style one.

Trukinjp13
10-22-2019, 03:28 PM
I only ran another 100 rounds through my rmr2, still works just fine.

My main reason for this update is how much better the dot has made me with irons. I was primarily shooting the dot for awhile and recently picked up a vigil commander. As soon as I started shooting the vigil I realized how much better I was tracking the front sight. I know, I know, it shoots softer than the Glock. But that did not make this big of a difference. I was pretty happy with this but it also made me hate that fat front sight even more. I run the smaller dot and love it. So I ordered a narrower more visible front for the vigil. If you are thinking about going with the dot, or even just experimenting. Give it a try, it may improve your irons game.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

GJM
10-22-2019, 04:53 PM
I only ran another 100 rounds through my rmr2, still works just fine.

My main reason for this update is how much better the dot has made me with irons. I was primarily shooting the dot for awhile and recently picked up a vigil commander. As soon as I started shooting the vigil I realized how much better I was tracking the front sight. I know, I know, it shoots softer than the Glock. But that did not make this big of a difference. I was pretty happy with this but it also made me hate that fat front sight even more. I run the smaller dot and love it. So I ordered a narrower more visible front for the vigil. If you are thinking about going with the dot, or even just experimenting. Give it a try, it may improve your irons game.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

After primarily shooting a dot for a few years, when I shoot an iron sighted pistol now I default to target focus.

Trukinjp13
10-22-2019, 11:33 PM
After primarily shooting a dot for a few years, when I shoot an iron sighted pistol now I default to target focus.

Speaking of target focus. My steel plate at 50 yards was completely covered by the front sight. Which was a bummer because with the dot I still had a clear target and could see where I was hitting the plate. The narrower front should hopefully help with this. Just another advantage to the mrds over irons. Not something you would likely do in a self defense scenario, but still a data point.

I appreciate all of your insight into the mrds. Have learned quite a few things from your experiences.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

GJM
10-23-2019, 06:53 AM
Competition use update.

While this is always subject to new information, as of October 2019, based on my experience and that of two other shooters, I rate the Sig Romeo 3 Max as the best Carry Optics competition red dot. The glass is great, and where other optics get multiple dots with a low forward sun angle, the Max does not. The dot is bright and comes in a 3 and 6 moa dot size. There is quite a bit of adjustment in dot intensity in the range useful for outdoor shooting. It fits on a RTS2 mounting solution. The main negative is the up and down buttons move easily, and you need to be careful when grabbing the optic, as you could move intensity. It is not built as tough as an RMR, but then it is not designed as an EDC optic.

Next, after the 3 Max, I would pick the SRO for competition. It has the RMR footprint, top loading battery, choice of dot sizes, pretty good software, and it seems reasonably robust if not rock dropping tough. Negatives are the glass is very thick, and you can get double dots in a low forward sun angle, the optic protrudes enough forward it can be difficult in certain installations, and the buttons take too much pressure to move. The auto adjust is passable outside, but nearly as good as the RMR for EDC, especially inside against a light background.

cornstalker
10-23-2019, 07:09 AM
Competition use update.

While this is always subject to new information, as of October 2019, based on my experience and that of two other shooters, I rate the Sig Romeo 3 Max as the best Carry Optics competition red dot. The glass is great, and where other optics get multiple dots with a low forward sun angle, the Max does not. The dot is bright and comes in a 3 and 6 moa dot size. There is quite a bit of adjustment in dot intensity in the range useful for outdoor shooting. It fits on a RTS2 mounting solution. The main negative is the up and down buttons move easily, and you need to be careful when grabbing the optic, as you could move intensity. It is not built as tough as an RMR, but then it is not designed as an EDC optic.

Next, after the 3 Max, I would pick the SRO for competition. It has the RMR footprint, top loading battery, choice of dot sizes, pretty good software, and it seems reasonably robust if not rock dropping tough. Negatives are the glass is very thick, and you can get double dots in a low forward sun angle, the optic protrudes enough forward it can be difficult in certain installations, and the buttons take too much pressure to move. The auto adjust is passable outside, but nearly as good as the RMR for EDC, especially inside against a light background.

Have you had any electronic or mechanical failures with the Romeo 3 Max yet?

GJM
10-23-2019, 07:43 AM
Have you had any failures with the Romeo 3 Max yet?

Yes. I think between my friend, my wife and I, we have over six of them. On one, from the factory, the windage adjustment didn’t have enough tension, and we returned it. On a second, my wife dropped a slide with one onto the floor of the hotel room, and it developed a small crack at the edge of the lens. I am still using the cracked one as an experiment, and so far it is fine.

1Rangemaster
10-23-2019, 08:08 AM
GJM, for informational purposes:
Seeing any of the (relatively rare) ACROs in practical competition?
I know you prefer wide glass view-just curious.

GJM
10-23-2019, 08:21 AM
Next, after the 3 Max, I would pick the SRO for competition. It has the RMR footprint, top loading battery, choice of dot sizes, pretty good software, and it seems reasonably robust if not rock dropping tough. Negatives are the glass is very thick, and you can get double dots in a low forward sun angle, the optic protrudes enough forward it can be difficult in certain installations, and the buttons take too much pressure to move. The auto adjust is passable outside, but nearly as good as the RMR for EDC, especially inside against a light background.

Happy fingers — SRO auto adjust is NOT as good as the RMR for EDC.

On the Acro, I saw a few at Gunsite on LE pistols, but not yet in USPSA. Maybe if a hurricane is forecast, we will see some come out and play.

TAZ
10-23-2019, 08:34 AM
Talk about timing. Was just about to get on here to discuss the low sun angle issue. I was on the range yesterday and ran into this as the sun was going down. Was getting very frustrated towards the end with the reflection dots.

Does the SRO address this better as I’m assuming the lens is deeper under the hood?

GJM
10-23-2019, 09:04 AM
Talk about timing. Was just about to get on here to discuss the low sun angle issue. I was on the range yesterday and ran into this as the sun was going down. Was getting very frustrated towards the end with the reflection dots.

Does the SRO address this better as I’m assuming the lens is deeper under the hood?

From worst to best with a low sun angle — RMR, DP Pro, SRO, Romeo 3 Max.

BigT
10-23-2019, 09:44 AM
Happy fingers — SRO auto adjust is NOT as good as the RMR for EDC.

On the Acro, I saw a few at Gunsite on LE pistols, but not yet in USPSA. Maybe if a hurricane is forecast, we will see some come out and play.

FWIW I saw a good few Acro's at the EHC in Serbia last month, including on Angus's gun.

1Rangemaster
10-23-2019, 11:41 AM
Thanks for the info, gentlemen.
Single anecdote: low sun angle(over berm)causes an “artifact”(purplish flare)on my Acro, but I could see the 3.5 dot clearly and plate rack down range-engaged successfully.
I only have fair experience w/one other unit(RMR2), and I would put the Acro ahead in terms of visibility(RMR sort of washes out to my eyes).
Dilemma with Acro as discussed before is its battery life. For personnel who will pay attention, it is workable and my preference due to sealed nature.
I’d hazard to say most LE won’t, though...
In the competition realm, easy day; competitors I would think just change the inexpensive battery before a major match.
Lens/dot smaller than others, but bigger than RMR.

BigT
10-23-2019, 01:04 PM
Not scientific but I'm getting much better perceived battery life in my Acro from the Panasonic that replaced the one that it shipped with.

1Rangemaster
10-23-2019, 05:51 PM
BigT:
Could you provide some data, please?
GJM has a thread where, if I recall correctly, level 8 gave about one month before dimming, level 9 around two weeks and level 10(highest) around 7 days. That is really problematic on a “carry” gun for general use/issue.
I, and others, monitor the dot intensity and change battery monthly. If there’s a better one, plenty of folks would want to know...
I am currently running the Renata brand, recommended by US Aimpoint personnel, changing monthly.
Thanks in advance for any info.

BigT
10-24-2019, 09:55 AM
@BigT (https://pistol-forum.com/member.php?u=419):
Could you provide some data, please?
GJM has a thread where, if I recall correctly, level 8 gave about one month before dimming, level 9 around two weeks and level 10(highest) around 7 days. That is really problematic on a “carry” gun for general use/issue.
I, and others, monitor the dot intensity and change battery monthly. If there’s a better one, plenty of folks would want to know...
I am currently running the Renata brand, recommended by US Aimpoint personnel, changing monthly.
Thanks in advance for any info.

Unfortunately thats why I said not scientific and better "perceived" battery life.

I haven't done a GJM and tried to kill the battery. I've been carrying the gun most of the time so the adjustment has varied depending on requirements. Same battery since Mid August.

Im using the Panasonic because thats what I could find :)

GJM
10-24-2019, 10:01 AM
It is supposed to be single digits each night of my upcoming elk hunt, with a high in the 20’s/30’s each day, so it will be interesting to see how my Acro does with cold.

1Rangemaster
10-24-2019, 11:27 AM
Thanks, BigT. I too manage mine carefully.
Somebody in a thread earlier was cutting the strip packaging the Renata batteries come in, and putting a single pack inside the back cavity of tithe GLOCK receiver. Seemed like a good idea, so I have a spare there.
GJM: always look forward to your report-good hunting, sir!

YVK
11-16-2019, 08:42 AM
I am here at the junction of sunny UT, AZ, and NV states, shooting a TPC class. Started day 1 with two optic guns, finished the day shooting irons. A DPP died in its usual fashion, sliding the battery contact about as far as I ever seen it. That followed by attachment screws loosening on my SRO, despite being mounted with all the prescribed voodoo of screw prep, threadlocking, and using a good torque wrench. Under 2000 rounds since it has been mounted.

So, the 11/16/2019 red dot optic update: don't forget how to shoot irons.

Doc_Glock
11-16-2019, 11:51 AM
I am here at the junction of sunny UT, AZ, and NV states, shooting a TPC class. Started day 1 with two optic guns, finished the day shooting irons. A DPP died in its usual fashion, sliding the battery contact about as far as I ever seen it. That followed by attachment screws loosening on my SRO, despite being mounted with all the prescribed voodoo of screw prep, threadlocking, and using a good torque wrench. Under 2000 rounds since it has been mounted.

So, the 11/16/2019 red dot optic update: don't forget how to shoot irons.

Thanks for continuing the beta test. This is absolutely why I got out of the red dot game three years ago: drama of various sorts despite what we hear from experts saying they are reliable. In my hands it was unending little dramas/breakages (multiple RMR milled Glock combos).

Duke
11-16-2019, 12:57 PM
Up to 6500 trouble, drama and re-zero Free rounds on an RM06 type 2.

Another 2k on an RM06 Type one (bought by mistake - but identical function to the other )

Maybe the red dot thing isn’t set and forget.

But my slide-Miller installed front suppressor sight came loose on day one - the dot has not.

EVP
11-17-2019, 05:37 PM
I am here at the junction of sunny UT, AZ, and NV states, shooting a TPC class. Started day 1 with two optic guns, finished the day shooting irons. A DPP died in its usual fashion, sliding the battery contact about as far as I ever seen it. That followed by attachment screws loosening on my SRO, despite being mounted with all the prescribed voodoo of screw prep, threadlocking, and using a good torque wrench. Under 2000 rounds since it has been mounted.

So, the 11/16/2019 red dot optic update: don't forget how to shoot irons.


YVK, was this with a direct milled gun or a plate/MOS type gun?

YVK
11-17-2019, 09:36 PM
YVK, was this with a direct milled gun or a plate/MOS type gun?

CZ custom aluminum adapter plate.

Jay Cunningham
11-18-2019, 12:40 PM
Thanks for continuing the beta test. This is absolutely why I got out of the red dot game three years ago: drama of various sorts despite what we hear from experts saying they are reliable. In my hands it was unending little dramas/breakages (multiple RMR milled Glock combos).

Who are you going to believe? The experts? Or your own lying eyes?

UNM1136
11-18-2019, 04:45 PM
Who are you going to believe? The experts? Or your own lying eyes?

You knew this was coming....


https://youtu.be/2PTEqZURh4o
pat

s0nspark
11-19-2019, 08:11 AM
Thanks for continuing the beta test. This is absolutely why I got out of the red dot game three years ago: drama of various sorts despite what we hear from experts saying they are reliable. In my hands it was unending little dramas/breakages (multiple RMR milled Glock combos).

The biggest takeaway I had from shooting dot guns for a few years was that I could, actually, shoot well with irons. Sounds silly now but I had convinced myself I couldn't see the irons well enough but that wasn't my problem at all LOL

Dots are great for dry fire and mixing into the training regimen, though... I still use one for that.

jeep45238
11-19-2019, 06:36 PM
The biggest takeaway I had from shooting dot guns for a few years was that I could, actually, shoot well with irons. Sounds silly now but I had convinced myself I couldn't see the irons well enough but that wasn't my problem at all LOL

Dots are great for dry fire and mixing into the training regimen, though... I still use one for that.

The best thing I've heard for red dots - they make all of your pistol shooting better, including irons. However, shooting irons won't make you better at shooting a red dot.



I have very limited experience in it, but my understanding is that since the sight alignment part is gone, and it's real easy to find out if the pistol returns to the same place (can't find the dot? not returning to the same place) - that it forces technique development to improve every other aspect of shooting a pistol.

s0nspark
11-19-2019, 06:49 PM
The best thing I've heard for red dots - they make all of your pistol shooting better, including irons. However, shooting irons won't make you better at shooting a red dot.

I have very limited experience in it, but my understanding is that since the sight alignment part is gone, and it's real easy to find out if the pistol returns to the same place (can't find the dot? not returning to the same place) - that it forces technique development to improve every other aspect of shooting a pistol.

Yep! It helped me take my focus off of refining the perfect sight picture and onto what I did after ;-) It also pushed me to be more consistent with my presentation as well...

All in all, not what I expected to get out of the experience but more than worth it in hindsight.

YVK
11-20-2019, 08:51 PM
YVK, was this with a direct milled gun or a plate/MOS type gun?


Upon inspecting the optic and screws, I found that I have to correct my previous post: this optic was mounted with a use of VC3. The prep, curing etc, was according to the instructions as was the use of a torque wrench. This was the first time I used Vibratite. The last one too.

GJM
11-20-2019, 09:15 PM
Upon inspecting the optic and screws, I found that I have to correct my previous post: this optic was mounted with a use of VC3. The prep, curing etc, was according to the instructions as was the use of a torque wrench. This was the first time I used Vibratite. The last one too.

As I believe I reported previously, I also had a bad experience where a plate secured with Vibra-Tite came loose. Went back to blue loctite and no further issues.

Clay1
11-20-2019, 09:42 PM
As I believe I reported previously, I also had a bad experience where a plate secured with Vibra-Tite came loose. Went back to blue loctite and no further issues.

This is how my adventures go, buy a $23 bottle of VC3, have had no issues with Blue, but thought that I would try something new. Haven't even opened the bottle and am now wondering if I really should try something new when Blue has always worked for me.

WobblyPossum
11-20-2019, 09:58 PM
That’s enough to convince me to stick with the Blue Loctite that’s always worked for me as well.

HeavyDuty
11-20-2019, 10:25 PM
My RMR on a C&H plate was mounted using Vibra-Tite per Nick’s method and is holding tight.

BigT
11-20-2019, 11:46 PM
I've always used blue loctite. Haven't had any issues but I do make dure to let it cure properly.

YVK
11-21-2019, 01:17 AM
I have mounted, dismounted, and remounted optics using blue loctite dozens of times. Same method, clean-degrease, apply loctite primer, dip screws into the blue, twist to get about 270 degrees coverage, torque them down, let optic sit there for 24 hours. I had a screw come out once, a side screw on an Atom plate. This VC3 thing came with something, so I thought I'd try. Funny, it didn't hold the optic but can't get the dried out shit out of threads.

Up1911Fan
11-21-2019, 05:20 PM
My RMR on a C&H plate was mounted using Vibra-Tite per Nick’s method and is holding tight.

Same.

Clay1
11-21-2019, 06:07 PM
Maybe it's less about which product we use, Blue or VC3; but rather about HOW you use it. Kind of like a guy told me in a gun store: All those Glocks shoot low left.

Whatever product you use, you must apply it in a way that allows your chosen product to give you the results that you want.

HCM
11-21-2019, 11:40 PM
My RMR on a C&H plate was mounted using Vibra-Tite per Nick’s method and is holding tight.


Same.

Same.

YVK
11-22-2019, 05:24 AM
I am curious what's your (VC guys) shooting schedule like, I mean in terms of frequency and density of repetitive stress. My optic was mounted in mid September and had several thousand rounds through, including several days of 600 to 900 rounds training. The day it failed was about 600 rounds day, and person who ran it repeatedly used the optic to rack the slide. I had read the thread here and mounted exactly how it was described there.

GJM
11-24-2019, 09:21 AM
Here is my thinking as of mid June 2019.

For carry and hard core defensive use today, the RMR type 2 (https://amzn.to/2IXCL6f) is the only high probability choice, unless an Aimpoint Micro works for your situation.

The RMS Shield is unproven, and leaving aside the current model is not waterproof and I know nothing about the new waterproof model, I am not aware of enough of them enduring high round counts to view them as viable.

The SRO clearly has teething problems, between the adjustments moving, and emitter problems experienced with multiple units even in our small sample. Hopefully it gets sorted out, but as of today, the SRO is at best, a “buy from Amazon” proposition, so you can return it for a no hassle credit, like my friend and I are doing.

The unmodified DP Pro is a real crap shoot. Some people report crazy high round counts, but my wife and I have broken 31 of them, making them hard to depend on. The three prototype ruggedized ones we have are working well, so with Leupold set to standardize those changes soon, the Pro may still be the gaming optic of choice.

The C-More RTS2 may be a niche gaming choice, but it doesn’t have universal mounting support, has less than ideal CS support for broken units, and I think is best on a frame mounted pistol.

The Vortex units seem to be hit and miss. I don’t know enough about the Burris and other lower end units to form an opinion.

The Acro is clearly an unknown. Aimpoint promised Aimpoint battery performance and reliability, and we know half that claim is wrong, so it remains to be seen on reliability, and whether it is overall viable. In any event it is harder to conceal, with a display to small for competition, making it a niche rather than universal solution.

A few months ago, I was convinced that 2019 was the year we finally got great new red dot choices that brought the PMO mainstream. Today, I think Aimpoint and Trijicon have snatched defeat from the jaws of victory with the SRO and Acro introductions, and realistically only after months of high round count use by multiple users, will we have an idea whether there is anything better than the RMR for defensive use and the DP Pro for competition.

I figured it was time for a red dot update, after an active summer of shooting. Almost every one of my shooting friends is either shooting a red dot dot in competition, for carry, or is in the process of running a red dot.

For carry, the RMR 2 is still the safest choice for most users. I don’t like the display, and the listed display dimensions are misleading, as the emitter housing protrudes into the display, making the usable display considerably smaller. However the auto dot intensity feature is category leading, the controls (on/off, change modes and intensity) work well, the battery lasts a long time, the footprint is common and it integrates with BUIS, although BUIS make a small display even smaller. I do wish it had a “doctor” mode that leaves it in auto without my override, as my friend YVK keeps leaving his on the high manual setting instead of auto and running his battery out.

The Acro seems to be reliable, it is harder to conceal, the display is small for competition, and the battery needs to last longer. Hopefully Aimpoint introduces one at SHOT with a 2032 battery or equivalent. The Acro or a T1 is still the choice for rolling in the snow or being out in the rain. The rear lens does not accumulate debris like the “ash tray” rear lens on most open emitters, although I regularly put my thumb’s finger print on the rear lens when holstering.

For smaller pistols, the Romeo Zero is still very new, although my friend, Talionis, is quite pleased with it so far on his 365 XL. The talk is the Zero is made by Shield, which would not be a surprise as it shares the same footprint. I have a Glock 43X being milled by Primary Machine for a RMSC right now.

For competition use, I believe the Sig Romeo 3 Max and Trijicon SRO are top of the pack.

First some thoughts on the others. The DP Pro, as shipped new or repaired, is back to historical levels of reliability, and soon will be even more reliable as Leupold continues to improve the product. However, by current standards the display is small and the lens distorts with multiple dots present in low forward sun angles. I continue to see Vortex red dots as budget options — and at the recent USPSA area match a squad-mate had his battery cap fly off downrange during a stage. The Holosun is for someone on a budget with an RMR footprint, but the display is still small for competition.

The Trijicon SRO and Sig Romeo 3 Max are very attractive for competition. The Romeo 3 Max uses the same footprint as a C-More RTS2 and is apparently made in the same factory in Japan as the RTS2. MOS adapters are available for the Glock, Springer adapter plates are available for the 320 X5/Legion, and it can be direct milled. It has little frame to block down range view, the display is large and clear, the controls are straightforward, it has lots of adjustment in the usable dot intensity range, the dot is bright, it is available in 6 moa, and its best feature is, it only has one dot in a low forward sun angle. The negatives are it is not built tough enough to beat on things, it doesn’t integrate well with BUIS as the emitter housing is tall, the battery doesn’t last as long as the SRO (although it has a side drawer to allow battery changes), and the up and down buttons move too easily, meaning you shouldn’t use the housing when manipulating the slide as you may adjust the optic intensity or even turn it off. The 3 Max has no auto mode but it does have MOTAC to sleep the optic if you leave it on.

The SRO fits a RMR footprint, although it’s “snorkel” may protrude forward in some installations, either collecting blast in the lens or even brass, causing a stoppage in rare instances. The lens is large, the controls work well, the battery lasts a long time, and the SRO has proven durable by red dot standards. It is available in 5 moa plus two smaller sizes. Opposite of the 3 Max, the buttons are almost too stiff, the auto intensity does not work well in certain light conditions, and in a low forward sun, you can get two dots. Two dots is better than the six with a RMR or DP Pro, but not as good as the one with the 3 Max.

Right now, I see the SRO and Max 3 as the two best choices for competition, although hopefully SHOT will bring more options for competition and carry.

flyrodr
11-24-2019, 09:56 AM
I figured it was time for a red dot update, after an active summer of shooting.

GJM - - - Thanks for a very informative status/update! Very much appreciated!!

YVK
11-24-2019, 10:58 AM
Since GJM has been endowed with moderator powers, maybe he can make that post a sticky: other than Talionis's SIG optic dying within next 1-2 thousand rounds, the state of affairs is unlikely to change in next 5 years.

Simong
11-24-2019, 03:41 PM
Little over 2 month now since I got my G19 back from Johnny Glocks with the 507C mounted on top.
I would estimate about 2K of factory ammo from 115 to 147-GR.
Zero problems with the RDS, excellent accuracy and the trigger is excellent as well.

Simong.

GJM
11-26-2019, 08:36 AM
Here is a link to an Enos thread, with pictures, on the “two dots” with an SRO in a low sun angle:

https://forums.brianenos.com/topic/279852-sro-with-2-red-dots/

Dismas316
11-26-2019, 09:06 AM
Here is a link to an Enos thread, with pictures, on the “two dots” with an SRO in a low sun angle:

https://forums.brianenos.com/topic/279852-sro-with-2-red-dots/

Have you heard of the Romeo 3 having the two dot issue that the SRO has? I haven’t heard of an issue but I also don’t see nearly as many shooters using that as I do the SRO.

GJM
11-26-2019, 09:33 AM
Have you heard of the Romeo 3 having the two dot issue that the SRO has? I haven’t heard of an issue but I also don’t see nearly as many shooters using that as I do the SRO.

It does not, see post 202 above.

Dismas316
11-26-2019, 09:36 AM
It does not, see post 202 above.

Ah yes missed that line, thanks.

Talionis
11-26-2019, 10:37 PM
Since GJM has been endowed with moderator powers, maybe he can make that post a sticky: other than Talionis's SIG optic dying within next 1-2 thousand rounds, the state of affairs is unlikely to change in next 5 years.

It will definitely get me kilt innastreets when it dies, too.

YVK
11-27-2019, 09:30 AM
You're practically a dead man walking. Not only because SIG optic, but mainly because the SIG pistol that you carry; there is a thread about this somewhere. Your assassins will, of course, be armed with HKs just because you quit their shooting team.



Sorry for the thread drift, couldn't help myself.

Talionis
11-27-2019, 08:32 PM
You're practically a dead man walking. Not only because SIG optic, but mainly because the SIG pistol that you carry; there is a thread about this somewhere. Your assassins will, of course, be armed with HKs just because you quit their shooting team.



Sorry for the thread drift, couldn't help myself.

No need for assassins when my SIG will inevitably go off in my holster and shoot my dick off as a cruel joke.

GJM
11-27-2019, 09:37 PM
YVK, you are a bad influence on Talionis. Let’s try to generally keep this on red dots, or I will have Leupold put a small decal on the next optic you return for repair!

Talionis
11-27-2019, 10:41 PM
YVK, you are a bad influence on Talionis. Let’s try to generally keep this on red dots, or I will have Leupold put a small decal on the next optic you return for repair!

As an apology for thread drift, here's a small update on the RomeoZERO: While the window is small due to form factor of the optic, it is a very shootable optic. The dot is extremely bright, to the point I have been running it at approximately half brightness for all-round use. Running plate racks this weekend in the bright mid-day sun, the dot was still clearly visible at this brightness level. In part because I don't have to run it at max bloom, the dot is also more clearly a dot than I am used to with my DP pro's. Still only about 500 rounds through the gun/optic combination, but so far no issues.

GJM
11-28-2019, 12:09 AM
As an apology for thread drift, here's a small update on the RomeoZERO: While the window is small due to form factor of the optic, it is a very shootable optic. The dot is extremely bright, to the point I have been running it at approximately half brightness for all-round use. Running plate racks this weekend in the bright mid-day sun, the dot was still clearly visible at this brightness level. In part because I don't have to run it at max bloom, the dot is also more clearly a dot than I am used to with my DP pro's. Still only about 500 rounds through the gun/optic combination, but so far no issues.

That is interesting that the zero has manual adjustment as the RMS and RMSc is auto intensity only.

Talionis
11-28-2019, 01:02 AM
That is interesting that the zero has manual adjustment as the RMS and RMSc is auto intensity only.

Very similar method of adjustment to DPP. Dot flashes at either end of the brightness spectrum. It also has motion sensor for auto on/off. I'm curious to see how long that holds up.

HeavyDuty
11-28-2019, 09:55 AM
I’ve been thinking about picking up a Brownells 43 slide to use with a Romeo0... I think red dots are my future.

GJM
11-28-2019, 10:57 AM
I’ve been thinking about picking up a Brownells 43 slide to use with a Romeo0... I think red dots are my future.

YVK did, and it was not reliable. He ended up sending it back.

HeavyDuty
11-28-2019, 08:08 PM
YVK did, and it was not reliable. He ended up sending it back.

Interesting - I would have expected Brownells would have done them right. Disappointing.

YVK, can you recap what problems you had?

YVK
11-28-2019, 09:57 PM
Brownells did fine by me, refunding the money promptly.

Ken, I wanna say those were failures to feed. Not 100% sure that I remember correctly but I think I am. What I remember for sure is that they were one per 10 round mag (43x setup), four mags straight, four malfunctions, and that was it for that experiment. The OEM slide didn't have problems before or after.

HeavyDuty
11-29-2019, 09:03 AM
Brownells did fine by me, refunding the money promptly.

Ken, I wanna say those were failures to feed. Not 100% sure that I remember correctly but I think I am. What I remember for sure is that they were one per 10 round mag (43x setup), four mags straight, four malfunctions, and that was it for that experiment. The OEM slide didn't have problems before or after.

Interesting. I’ve seen a few other people post elsewhere that they didn’t have problems, but with no context on whether they were running them hard or had even thoroughly tested things beyond a few mags. I’m tempted to give one a try because, like you said, Brownells support is great. Thanks for chiming in!

awp_101
12-01-2019, 12:22 PM
GJM Talionis YVK

I just read the Romeo and RMS discussion from post 214 to the end. If you were going to rds a S&W Shield 1.0 9mm for EDC, would you be leaning toward the Romeo or the RMS/RMSc? I plan of having one direct milled to my Shield, I just don't know which yet.

Thanks!

YVK
12-01-2019, 04:46 PM
I dont have any experience with either of the sites so I dont have an answer. Personally, I have hosts for both of them (365xl and 48) but I am waiting for more data. In general, I prefer manual brightness adjustment over auto mode, but I need to know more about battery life. That is if everything else, reliability, durability, scratch resistance are equal.
I have no concerns running around with irons until I know more.

awp_101
12-01-2019, 05:47 PM
I dont have any experience with either of the sites so I dont have an answer. Personally, I have hosts for both of them (365xl and 48) but I am waiting for more data.
Sorry, it looks like I misread the posts about the Brownells slide.

YVK
12-01-2019, 06:13 PM
Brownells slide failed function testing before I bought an optic.

newyork
12-02-2019, 01:05 AM
I’m seriously contemplating having Jager mill my G19.5. I’m thinking GL-429 and either an RM-06 or SRO. Thoughts on which rmr ? So new to this idea but I want to try it. I don’t carry the 19 but it is my house gun.

YVK
12-02-2019, 09:54 AM
If you dont carry it and dont try to rack your gun against the table 100 times and dont intentionally drop it upside down, the 5 MOA SRO will give you a better shooting experience. Might have to learn how to manage the battery; the auto adjust on SRO doesn't work as well. That said, with top loading battery it is a less of a pain.
For RMR, I like the adjustable 6.5 models, either generation.

newyork
12-02-2019, 10:17 AM
I’ll likely carry my 48 or J. But I would like to be able to carry it eventually here and there. As I said mostly for Js, fun and range.
Unless Murphy really struck I wouldn’t be using it to rack more than once.

SRO battery situation is a huge plus.

You prefer the larger of the reticles? My eyes aren’t amazing. I was wondering whether 2.5/3.5 moa or 5/6 was better.

I like the idea of a better experience as long as it’s not too delicate or temperamental.

Clay1
12-02-2019, 11:41 AM
I voted for the RMR as a carry optic. For gun games the SRO is a nice option. Just bought another RMR. Thinking that the battery replacement so much more often with the SRO that it needs the top loading battery compartment but only having to change the battery on the RMR annually is no big deal and much prefer the duty rating on the optic for a duty/carry optic. Just depends on what you want to do with it.

newyork
12-02-2019, 12:17 PM
For me it’d mostly be hd and range stuff. I’d be fine with SRO as long as it’s not delicate. Not as tough is fine. Delicate or temperamental is not.
I like the battery situation and big window.

I like the rugged rmr idea but hate the battery underneath and smaller window is less...good?

Tom Duffy
12-02-2019, 01:04 PM
Doing an experiment now with a Type 2 RMR. Mounted on a gun I shoot regularly, going on 1 year 8 months on the original battery. Going to see if it makes it to 2 years. Having a bottom mounted battery on an RMR is pretty much a moot point.
Just bought an SRO for my revolver. Looks like it will be a really big help finding the dot reliably when shooting weak hand only. As an aside, I enjoy people who shoot weak hand at matches. It's often their first experience doing so. Usual refrain, "Where the f**k is the dot?!?"

newyork
12-02-2019, 01:20 PM
Do you find the SRO tough enough for hd/carry?

Tom Duffy
12-02-2019, 02:09 PM
Do you find the SRO tough enough for hd/carry?

If you're asking me about the SRO, I haven't had it long enough to know. Only 77 rounds through it and with a revolver, so no additional stress on the optic caused by a reciprocating slide. I don't think I'd hesitate using it in a home defense role, In fact, I think the large window is very advantageous. I have two RMR type 2s on my HKs and I think they are the better choice for carry, in terms of concealability. I mounted the SRO on my P30L just to try it and it was very large by comparison and I'd have to find new holsters to accommodate it. BTW, the SRO fit perfectly on my P30L which was milled by L&M for my RMR.
I'll be closely monitoring my SRO for zero drift to see if my unit is affected.

scjbash
12-02-2019, 04:39 PM
Do you find the SRO tough enough for hd/carry?

I've been shooting with one for a couple months. It will be my carry gun soon. I wouldn't use it in something like a law enforcement capacity where it would be exposed to a lot of potential impacts, but I see no issue in carrying it concealed. I prefer shooting it over an RMR enough that to me the trade off is worth any potential problem in regards to impact resistance. We've all watched thousands of videos of shootings. How often do we see the top of the gun take a direct impact of any kind?

newyork
12-02-2019, 05:07 PM
Sounds pretty dang promising. Acro seems too big. Battery life too short. Odd battery. SRO seems the better choice. Big window. Battery placement. 2.5 or 5 moa?

Also, I’ve heard Ameriglo are too short for the SRO and Dawson’s are the way to go.

YVK
12-02-2019, 08:08 PM
SRO is not delicate or temperamental. Some of them were plain defective, but as a group, it is certainly good enough for a home gun. I carried one and took it off only because I wanted a second game gun with it.
I don't like auto adjust function and prefer to run my optics on manual. As a result, two of my RMRs ran out their Duracell batteries in under 6 months. Top loading battery is a big deal for me.
I've shot dots of almost every available size and I prefer 5-6 MOA. It is not an issue of visual acuity; I know a many times over National champion in both irons and optic divisions who also likes that size. It is a matter of a personal preference, in my case based on ease of streak tracking, washout resistance, and performance on large, close targets, especially light colored.

GJM
12-02-2019, 08:23 PM
As to the SRO for carry, the extra mass of the SRO carries at the belt line for me, and it conceals as well as an RMR. The auto function is better on the RMR, but the larger 5 moa SRO auto dot is closer to passable for my eyes than the 2.5, which is too small in lower light conditions.

1Rangemaster
12-02-2019, 08:50 PM
newyork: both YVK and GJM certainly have a good deal of experience with multiple brands of red dots. I’m sitting here with an ACRO on Gen5 19MOS, and will attach a WML for overnight. Also have had an RMR type
2, but that is a on an issued G45.
The ACRO battery issues are annoying, and I just attend to it. I can see in a “home defense” role the SRO w/5moa dot as a very viable alternative, after vetting the individual example with a hundred or two hundred rounds fired.
I have worked with Ameriglo sights and I believe one could find the right height(they have up to .500 high front sights).
Conceptually, a pistol w/RDS mounted and a weapon light make a lot of sense in the “castle”...

newyork
12-02-2019, 09:24 PM
Thank you very much guys.

Up1911Fan
12-02-2019, 10:43 PM
Anyone know of the SRO fits in a Safariland RDS?

GJM
12-02-2019, 10:47 PM
Anyone know of the SRO fits in a Safariland RDS?

The RMR, SRO, Acro and DP Pro all work in my Glock one.

Up1911Fan
12-02-2019, 10:52 PM
The RMR, SRO, Acro and DP Pro all work in my Glock one.

Thanks George.

GJM
12-14-2019, 07:56 PM
I have been shooting the Sig Romeo 3 Max as my primary red dot for the last month or so. Using it for practice and matches, and really liking it.

Today, part way through stage two of a match, the dot failed on the R3Max. I tried to fix it, couldn’t, and just carried on with index since I don’t have BUIS.

Bummer, as I really like this optic. Finished the match with a SRO on another slide.


https://youtu.be/MLCYMZVg0CY

ranger
12-15-2019, 10:41 AM
So GJM which is the most reliable "gamer" RDS based on your experience now (as you continue to experiment)? SRO?

GJM
12-15-2019, 09:59 PM
So GJM which is the most reliable "gamer" RDS based on your experience now (as you continue to experiment)? SRO?

None, but prob the SRO.

I have broken so many optics, thought you might be interested in my latest CO set-up.

45978

Tom Duffy
12-16-2019, 11:36 AM
None, but prob the SRO.

I have broken so many optics, thought you might be interested in my latest CO set-up.

45978

It would be fun to watch George go gansta in the middle of a stage.

miller_man
12-17-2019, 10:38 AM
It would be fun to watch George go gansta in the middle of a stage.

The "broken red dot pistol shake" was pretty fun to watch for me.

That is one reason I think I will always keep at least a tall, workable front sight on my game guns.

GJM
01-10-2020, 12:27 PM
Will be interesting to see what SHOT brings, but a few pre SHOT observations.

Was discussing optics with someone I buy them through that sells a wide range of different brand red dots. He says the single most returned optic is the Sig Romeo 1, and the cause is almost always that the dot loses zero. Second most returned, and similar to my experience, is the Holosun, which has a significant out of the box failure rate. The 507 is very attractive to many as a CO on a budget optic.

Prices are reduced on the 507 and 507 GR, and the thinking is there is a replacement 507 coming at SHOT. Shield RMS optics are slow to deliver, and they are apparently selling many of them, including to OEM buyers like SA. I just got a new Acro and it has some changes — hoping those changes include better battery life.

HeavyDuty
01-10-2020, 12:55 PM
I hope we will start seeing the subcompact segment heat up with more first tier choices. A RMRc would be ideal...

matt7184
01-10-2020, 04:53 PM
Will be interesting to see what SHOT brings, but a few pre SHOT observations.

Was discussing optics with someone I buy them through that sells a wide range of different brand red dots. He says the single most returned optic is the Sig Romeo 1, and the cause is almost always that the dot loses zero. Second most returned, and similar to my experience, is the Holosun, which has a significant out of the box failure rate. The 507 is very attractive to many as a CO on a budget optic.

Prices are reduced on the 507 and 507 GR, and the thinking is there is a replacement 507 coming at SHOT. Shield RMS optics are slow to deliver, and they are apparently selling many of them, including to OEM buyers like SA. I just got a new Acro and it has some changes — hoping those changes include better battery life.

What changes did you see on the latest ACRO?