How do I go about building my own suppressor (Form1)?

[mtnbkr]

Serious question...(spun off from a GD discussion about https://amzn.to/2RlGVJ1)

How does one go about getting "80% parts" for a suppressor, filling out a form 1, building said suppressor after approval, and putting it to use?

Can a regular person (ie not an FFL or licensed manufacturer) do this? Is it as simple as buying the uncompleted parts, filing the form, paying $200, waiting..., then completing the suppressor to the description in the form 1?

Next, where are good places to get parts or kits? Are some better than others? What does one look for in a kit?

I love building stuff and have built or help build a number of ARs (8 including the ones that I assisted others on). I've build a Glock P80. I've rebuilt near basket-case revolvers, performed some minor gunsmithing on a number of guns, etc. I'm pretty comfortable with this sort of thing. I think I'd like to try my own suppressor. I'm looking at it as more of an educational exercise as well as a quicker (I think above it was mentioned the wait time is shorter), and potentially cheaper, route to another can. However, the risk being what it is, I prefer to be fully educated on the process and risks first.

If there is a good site that covers all this, just point me to it. A quick web search didn't turn up anything.

Thanks,
Chris

[LittleLebowski]

Serious question...

How does one go about getting "80% parts" for a suppressor, filling out a form 1, building said suppressor after approval, and putting it to use?

Can a regular person (ie not an FFL or licensed manufacturer) do this? Is it as simple as buying the uncompleted parts, filing the form, paying $200, waiting..., then completing the suppressor to the description in the form 1? Yes.

Next, where are good places to get parts or kits? https://diversifiedmachine.us/shop/ Are some better than others? Yes, wish I had more data for you. What does one look for in a kit? Wish I had more data for you.

I love building stuff and have built or help build a number of ARs (8 including the ones that I assisted others on). I've build a Glock P80. I've rebuilt near basket-case revolvers, performed some minor gunsmithing on a number of guns, etc. I'm pretty comfortable with this sort of thing. I think I'd like to try my own suppressor. I'm looking at it as more of an educational exercise as well as a quicker (I think above it was mentioned the wait time is shorter), and potentially cheaper, route to another can. However, the risk being what it is, I prefer to be fully educated on the process and risks first.

If there is a good site that covers all this, just point me to it. A quick web search didn't turn up anything.

Thanks,
Chris

[whomever]

>Can a regular person (ie not an FFL or licensed manufacturer) do this? Is it as simple as buying the uncompleted parts, filing the form, paying $200, waiting..., then >completing the suppressor to the description in the form 1?

Kind of. 'Filling out the form' is a little more involved these days - photos, fingerprints, etc. And there is an upfront decision to make about whether to purchase as an individual or a trust.

>If there is a good site that covers all this, just point me to it. A quick web search didn't turn up anything

There is the 'NFA' subforum here. Another forum that has a lot of DIY discussions is silencertalk.com


ETA: while the actual machining of simple suppressors is ... simple :-), it's worth remembering that mistakes can be expensive. If you turn a dial one rev too far and wreck your model steam engine or DIY AR lower, you're out your time and whatever the material cost. A brain fart when a law abiding owner is working on their suppressor can cost $200. So you don't want to be too far out on the edge of your personal machining competence.

[mtnbkr]

>Can a regular person (ie not an FFL or licensed manufacturer) do this? Is it as simple as buying the uncompleted parts, filing the form, paying $200, waiting..., then >completing the suppressor to the description in the form 1?

Kind of. 'Filling out the form' is a little more involved these days - photos, fingerprints, etc. And there is an upfront decision to make about whether to purchase as an individual or a trust.

>If there is a good site that covers all this, just point me to it. A quick web search didn't turn up anything

There is the 'NFA' subforum here. Another forum that has a lot of DIY discussions is silencertalk.com


ETA: while the actual machining of simple suppressors is ... simple :-), it's worth remembering that mistakes can be expensive. If you turn a dial one rev too far and wreck your model steam engine or DIY AR lower, you're out your time and whatever the material cost. A brain fart when a law abiding owner is working on their suppressor can cost $200. So you don't want to be too far out on the edge of your personal machining competence.

Thanks. I have 1 suppressor, on a trust, so I'm not completely ignorant of that aspect of the process. Also, I didn't recall seeing much "DIY" discussion in the NFA subforum, but now that the idea is in my head I'll do some searches here. I had forgotten about silencertalk.com.

Regardless, I'll be reading a lot before I make the leap. I wanted to be sure it was theoretically doable and lowish risk before I got too far into the research rabbit-hole.

Thanks!

Chris

[mtnbkr]

I found this site, which seems more informative than silencertalk.com: http://form1suppressor.boards.net

Chris

[CCT125US]

The whole constructive intent issue bothers me. You obtain the parts in order to get dimensions required on the form...... which has obviously not been submitted, or approved.... for the parts you intend to construct.... I certainly lack understanding here.

[mtnbkr]

The whole constructive intent issue bothers me. You obtain the parts in order to get dimensions required on the form...... which has obviously not been submitted, or approved.... for the parts you intend to construct.... I certainly lack understanding here.

As far as I can tell, all you need for those measurements is the tube and end-caps. I think intent applies to a willingness to break the law as well as having the components available, in a finished state. So, if you bought the tube and unfinished caps, made your measurements, submitted your paperwork, and did nothing else until the approval came back, there would be no intent to break the law.

That said, I haven't looked at the form yet as eForms was down when I tried to check, so there may be dimensions beyond simple exterior dimensions necessitating having on hand the rest of the components.

Chris

[HCM]

The whole constructive intent issue bothers me. You obtain the parts in order to get dimensions required on the form...... which has obviously not been submitted, or approved.... for the parts you intend to construct.... I certainly lack understanding here.

This is where words mean things.

The “parts” you obtain in the 80% kit are not, legally “suppressor parts,” they are unfinished raw materials, hence the 80% qualifier. Until you finish the remaining 20% of Machine operations they are not legally “suppressor parts.”

You don’t finish the other 80% and “make” them into suppressor parts until you have your form 1. Form 1 being an application to “make” an NFA item.

You can have constructive intent to possess an item when the parts you have are, by legal definition, not yet parts of that item.

[HCM]

As far as I can tell, all you need for those measurements is the tube and end-caps. I think intent applies to a willingness to break the law as well as having the components available, in a finished state. So, if you bought the tube and unfinished caps, made your measurements, submitted your paperwork, and did nothing else until the approval came back, there would be no intent to break the law.

That said, I haven't looked at the form yet as eForms was down when I tried to check, so there may be dimensions beyond simple exterior dimensions necessitating having on hand the rest of the components.

Chris

Having the parts in a finished state vs 80% state are two VERY different situations.

The whole rationale for the 80% kit is “it’s not soup yet” so you can possess it without legal risk until you have the form 1 in hand allowing you to legally finish the parts.

If you finish the parts from an 80% without a form 1, then yeah you have broken the law and defeated the whole rationale behind the legitimate use of an 80% kit.

It may sound nit picky but referring to 80% parts, which are NOT legally suppressor parts with finished parts that ARE legally suppressor parts contributes to confusion where there should be none.

[HCM]

Serious question...(spun off from a GD discussion about https://amzn.to/2InO8Fn)

How does one go about getting "80% parts" for a suppressor, filling out a form 1, building said suppressor after approval, and putting it to use?

Can a regular person (ie not an FFL or licensed manufacturer) do this? Is it as simple as buying the uncompleted parts, filing the form, paying $200, waiting..., then completing the suppressor to the description in the form 1?

Next, where are good places to get parts or kits? Are some better than others? What does one look for in a kit?

I love building stuff and have built or help build a number of ARs (8 including the ones that I assisted others on). I've build a Glock P80. I've rebuilt near basket-case revolvers, performed some minor gunsmithing on a number of guns, etc. I'm pretty comfortable with this sort of thing. I think I'd like to try my own suppressor. I'm looking at it as more of an educational exercise as well as a quicker (I think above it was mentioned the wait time is shorter), and potentially cheaper, route to another can. However, the risk being what it is, I prefer to be fully educated on the process and risks first.

If there is a good site that covers all this, just point me to it. A quick web search didn't turn up anything.

Thanks,
Chris

I feel like someone asked this before

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?35673-Has-anyone-here-built-a-Form-1-Suppressor

[mtnbkr]

Having the parts in a finished state vs 80% state are two VERY different situations.

The whole rationale for the 80% kit is “it’s not soup yet” so you can possess it without legal risk until you have the form 1 in hand allowing you to legally finish the parts.

If you finish the parts from an 80% without a form 1, then yeah you have broken the law and defeated the whole rationale behind the legitimate use of an 80% kit.

It may sound nit picky but referring to 80% parts, which are NOT legally suppressor parts with finished parts that ARE legally suppressor parts contributes to confusion where there should be none.

I'm unclear where I confused the two. I thought I was clear that I was talking about unfinished (or 80% if you will) parts prior to the completed and approved Form 1.

Chris

[HCM]

I'm unclear where I confused the two. I thought I was clear that I was talking about unfinished (or 80% if you will) parts prior to the completed and approved Form 1.

Chris

You didn’t I mis read your post. Bleed over from the other thread

The best info I have found on these has been at AFCOM and the consensus there is Diversified Machine was the “A” solution. Last time I looked DM had stopped taking orders to catch up on back orders.

There is also a Form 1 suppressor group on Facebook but there is a lot of bad info and III% / “Boogaloo” crap mixed in there as well.

[mtnbkr]

You didn’t I mis read your post. Bleed over from the other thread

No worries. I re-read my post 3x trying to figure out if I typed something different than what I was intending. ;)

Chris

[CCT125US]

This is where words mean things.

The “parts” you obtain in the 80% kit are not, legally “suppressor parts,” they are unfinished raw materials, hence the 80% qualifier. Until you finish the remaining 20% of Machine operations they are not legally “suppressor parts.”

You don’t finish the other 80% and “make” them into suppressor parts until you have your form 1. Form 1 being an application to “make” an NFA item.

You can have constructive intent to possess an item when the parts you have are, by legal definition, not yet parts of that item.

Yes they do. So where one may look at various solvent traps, oil filter "kits", and see the makings of a suppressor, those assumptions would be wrong. Since in the eyes of the law they are merely raw materials.

[HCM]

Yes they do. So where one may look at various solvent traps, oil filter "kits", and see the makings of a suppressor, those assumptions would be wrong. Since in the eyes of the law they are merely raw materials.

Legally, they are merely raw materials until are until they are drilled out.

From a realistic POV, People may want to build a a good quality form 1 suppressor, like from diversified machine’s kits or thy may want a suppressor just good enough work for a year until their factory can’s form 4 is approved.

Dropping $200 on form 1ing and oil filter is impractical as it is a disposable item but until it is drilled out, it’s an oil filter.

[joshs]

This is where words mean things.

The “parts” you obtain in the 80% kit are not, legally “suppressor parts,” they are unfinished raw materials, hence the 80% qualifier. Until you finish the remaining 20% of Machine operations they are not legally “suppressor parts.”

Are they not? A part is legally a "silencer" if it is "any combination of parts, designed or redesigned, and intended for use in assembling or fabricating a firearm silencer or firearm muffler, and any part intended only for use in such assembly or fabrication." I would never advise someone that they could come into possession of one of those kits before having a completed Form 1.

This isn't legal advice and no attorney-client relationship is expressed or implied by this post.

[HCM]

Are they not? A part is legally a "silencer" if it is "any combination of parts, designed or redesigned, and intended for use in assembling or fabricating a firearm silencer or firearm muffler, and any part intended only for use in such assembly or fabrication." I would never advise someone that they could come into possession of one of those kits before having a completed Form 1.

This isn't legal advice and no attorney-client relationship is expressed or implied by this post.

What is the definition of “fabricating” in this context ?

And is it different that the way it is used in other NFA context ?

[joshs]

What is the definition of “fabricating” in this context ?

And is it different that the way it is used in other NFA context ?

It's not defined, and it's not in the NFA. It's in the GCA (codified at 18 USCA S 921). If you just work off the plain meaning of the word, I wouldn't want to possess one of those kits without a completed/approved Form 1.

[shane45]

Whats the advantage of pursuing this route? Is it much faster than a store bought? Or is it to save money?

[Dan_S]

Whats the advantage of pursuing this route? Is it much faster than a store bought? Or is it to save money?

The form ones are typically approved faster than the form fours.


Why?

No clue.

Instead of waiting ten months for an approved form four, some guys are getting approved forms ones back in a matter of weeks.


Shrug.

[shane45]

Good to know! Thanks for the info! I have the equipment and capability. Looks like I might start material shopping! :D

[whomever]

"Are they not? A part is legally a "silencer" if it is "any combination of parts, designed or redesigned, and intended for use in assembling or fabricating a firearm silencer or firearm muffler, and any part intended only for use in such assembly or fabrication." I would never advise someone that they could come into possession of one of those kits before having a completed Form 1."

Just to be Devil's advocate: one of those '80% kits' either is or isn't a suppressor as delivered. If it isn't a suppressor as delivered, you don't need a Form 1 to have one. If it is a suppressor, you'd need a Form 4 before buying one, not a Form 1, wouldn't you?

To be clear, I dunno whether any particular '80% kit' is legal or not. Do the sellers get ATF letters like the sellers of 80% receivers do?

Followup after inconclusive googling (talking about solvent traps): "While we would advise our clients to file a Form 1 and obtain approval of ATF prior to even purchasing a solvent trap or similar device, so to prevent against constructive possession charges ..."

https://blog.princelaw.com/2016/08/13/atfs-shocking-position-on-makers-of-silencerssuppressors-especially-in-relation-to-solvent-traps/

Of course, 'smart people get the Form 1 approved first' and 'a requirement that you get a form 1 first is logically inconsistent' can both be true.

(FWIW, my Form 1 suppressors start as plain round bar stock. Hopefully buying that is legal :-) )

[shane45]

I would think the delineation of an 80% kit is your legal standing ground. I am making the assumption that the ATF has to sign off with the kit manufacturer that it "isnt" a supressor just like an 80% lower "isnt" a firearm. Otherwise one could potentially be charged for having blueprints, a mill or lathe and a block of aluminum. Additionally if you have applied for a form 1, then I think that would demonstrate your navigating a legal path, in other words your legal intent is documented.

[LittleLebowski]

https://solventtrapsdirect.com/solvent-trap-kits/

[joshs]

"Are they not? A part is legally a "silencer" if it is "any combination of parts, designed or redesigned, and intended for use in assembling or fabricating a firearm silencer or firearm muffler, and any part intended only for use in such assembly or fabrication." I would never advise someone that they could come into possession of one of those kits before having a completed Form 1."

Just to be Devil's advocate: one of those '80% kits' either is or isn't a suppressor as delivered. If it isn't a suppressor as delivered, you don't need a Form 1 to have one. If it is a suppressor, you'd need a Form 4 before buying one, not a Form 1, wouldn't you?

Sort of. If you have the collection of parts, then that alone could potentially be used to show your intent to fabricate a complete silencer. By having the completed Form 1 first (which you're eventually going to have to do anyways), you could mitigate a series of very unfortunate events.


Of course, 'smart people get the Form 1 approved first' and 'a requirement that you get a form 1 first is logically inconsistent' can both be true.

I think you answered your own question. ;)

[joshs]

I would think the delineation of an 80% kit is your legal standing ground. I am making the assumption that the ATF has to sign off with the kit manufacturer that it "isnt" a supressor just like an 80% lower "isnt" a firearm. Otherwise one could potentially be charged for having blueprints, a mill or lathe and a block of aluminum. Additionally if you have applied for a form 1, then I think that would demonstrate your navigating a legal path, in other words your legal intent is documented.

Other than imports, there generally isn't a requirement that ATF "sign-off" on firearms or accessories before they are made available on the commercial market. Many manufacturers consider it the reasonably prudent thing to do (especially for the risk averse), but many others do not submit samples to ATF before going to market.

[DMF13]

Here again we have another thread, where people are using the terms "constructive possession," and " constructive intent," improperly. Both are legal terms, that have nothing to do with the ability or intent to construct an item.

I know you probably heard other "gun" people use those terms, in the same way, but it's incorrect and just perpetuating ignorance related to the topic.

If you want to use such terms i suggest busting out a copy of Black's Law Dictionary, and learning what they actually mean, and you will see that they haven't been used properly on this thread.

[CleverNickname]

I'm going to quote myself from a post I wrote on a different board:

Steps for purchasing an already-made NFA firearm (form 4):

Find someone selling the NFA firearm you want. If it's outside your state, the firearm must first be transferred to an FFL/SOT inside your state. If the seller is also an FFL/SOT, the NFA firearm transfers tax-free on a form 3 from one SOT to another. If the seller is not an FFL/SOT, the NFA firearm transfers in a taxed transfer on a form 4.
Once the firearm arrives at your FFL/SOT dealer, or if you buy it from your dealer, they will help you fill out an ATF form 4 to transfer the firearm to you. If buying in-state from a private seller, the seller should provide the form 4. The dealer or seller should fill out most of this, and any parts that you have to fill out should be self-explanatory.
Box 15: You must put a reason why you want the firearm. This is just an ATF CYA in case someone is stupid enough to state an illegal purpose, or something that implies illegality. Just use “All lawful purposes.”
Print out the form in duplex (i.e. on both sides of the paper). ATF policy is to reject forms printed only on one side of the paper.
If a transfer to a trust, LLC or corporation, fill out a form 5320.23 for each responsible person. A responsible person is a settlor/grantor, trustee, partner, member, officer, director, board member, or owner of the trust, LLC or corporation.
Get three 2”x2” passport photos taken. Attach them to the form 4 if a transfer to a real person, or to the appropriate form 5320.23 for each responsible person.
Get fingerprints taken in duplicate of the transferee or each responsible person. Try your sheriff's office or police department. It’s legally OK to take your own fingerprints if you know how, but if you’ve not done it before it’ll be easier and likely have lower odds of rejection for illegible prints if someone who has been trained to do so takes the prints.
Make out a check to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. Use a personal check so that you can see when it clears. Then you'll know when the paperwork's been received and the approval process has started.
Make a photocopy of the front of the form 4 for your records.
Mail the CLEO copy to the CLEO.
Mail everything else to the address on the form 4.
Wait. Watch your bank statement and see when the ATF cashes your check. They do it at the very beginning of the process, so don’t get all excited yet. But at least you know your paperwork has been received and the process has started.
Wait some more. There is always a backlog of forms to be processed, so your form goes into a queue. When your form is processed, the ATF takes the information off of the form 4 and inputs it into the National Firearms Registry and Transfer Record (NFRTR), their database of all legal NFA firearms. Anytime an NFA firearm is manufactured or transferred, the ATF is supposed to update the NFRTR.
Wait even longer. Seriously, it can take a really long time. The NFA Tracker (https://www.nfatracker.com/) is a website which will let you see how long other people have had to wait for their forms to be approved, and will let you estimate how long it will take for your form’s approval.
If your transfer is taking longer than other people who submitted their forms around the same time, call the ATF’s NFA Branch at 304-616-4500 and ask for your transfer’s status. They will ask for the name of the transferor, the name of the transferee (you or your trust/LLC) and the serial number of the gun. This is the reason to save a photocopy of the form 4.
When the approved form 4 arrives at the transferor, pick up the gun and the approved form 4 from the seller. The form will have a canceled tax stamp affixed to it, which is the proof that the transfer tax was paid.
Make copies of the form. Take the copies when you go shooting in case the police or range master wants to make sure the gun is legal. Store the original form somewhere secure like your gun safe or a safe deposit box. Remember above where I said the ATF is "supposed to update the NFRTR?" Well, mistakes happen. They've gotten a lot better than in past decades, but it's still a possibility. The ATF is supposed to retain the duplicate form 4 which you sent, but if they lose it, your gun might show up as unregistered. Having the original form to prove that the gun is in fact registered will make your life easier if that happens. Don’t laminate the original form, as that makes authenticating it as an original more difficult.


Steps for making an NFA firearm (form 1):
It's also possible to legally make your own NFA firearm, as long as it's not a machine gun. You can either build the gun from scratch, or modify a normal firearm into an NFA firearm. The process to make an NFA firearm is very similar to the transfer of an NFA firearm.


Engrave the name of the entity which is making the gun (you or your trust/LLC/corporation; whoever is listed as the applicant in box 3b on the form 1), and the entity’s city & state on the gun. Have the engraving done first. This way if the engraver screws up the engraving or the gun gets lost in the mail to or from the engravers you'll have fewer problems. The engraving must be at least .003" deep. A local trophy shop or similar engraver usually won’t engrave the letters deep enough; you’ll probably need to send the gun to an FFL/SOT who does firearm engraving.
Fill out an ATF form 1 in triplicate. Instead of using a paper form 1, use eForms (https://www.atfonline.gov/EForms/) to submit an electronic form 1 to the ATF. eForms are typically much faster approvals than paper forms. Form 4's are not in the eForms system yet, but will be coming sometime in the future. The ATF will snail-mail fingerprint cards to the submitter, which then have to be filled out and snail-mailed back to the ATF. The form 1 (both paper and eForm versions) are pretty self-explanatory and have instructions included, but here's a few tips.
Box 4c: Caliber. Put the actual caliber, even if the gun is marked “Multi.”
Box 4e: Barrel length. Put the actual barrel length. Muzzle devices that are not permanently attached are not included in the barrel length.
Box 4f: Overall length. Firearms with folding stocks should be measured with the stocks opened to their fullest extent.
There is no limitation on future changes to another caliber, to the barrel length or to the OAL. The ATF just asks that they be notified if it’s a permanent modification. If you do this, a letter sent to the NFA Branch will suffice; there is no specific form.
Other than the engraving requirement for NFA firearms you manufacture, the remainder of the process is pretty similar to a transfer on a form 4.
Once you receive the approved form 1, make the NFA firearm. Depending on the firearm, this may be as simple as attaching a short upper on an AR15, or as complicated as firing up your lathe, drill press and/or CNC machine if you’re more mechanically inclined.

[DMF13]

. . . you’ll probably need to send the gun to an FFL/SOT who does firearm engraving.

If it's already a firearm, such as a frame/receiver you intend to build into a short barreled rifle or shotgun, then you must (not probably) use a Federal Firearms Licensee (FFL) for the engraving, not some "non-licensee" business, like most "trophy shops." Engraving firearms is "gunsmithing," and therefore a business that engraves firearms is "engaged in the business of dealing in firearms," and therefore must have an "FFL," to do it legally.

[CleverNickname]

If it's already a firearm, such as a frame/receiver you intend to build into a short barreled rifle or shotgun, then you must (not probably) use a Federal Firearms Licensee (FFL) for the engraving, not some "non-licensee" business, like most "trophy shops." Engraving firearms is "gunsmithing," and therefore a business that engraves firearms is "engaged in the business of dealing in firearms," and therefore must have an "FFL," to do it legally.

I guess I wasn't clear; I meant more that you have the option of engraving it yourself.

[DMF13]

Sorry, I wasn't sure of the intent of your statement, but because many people claim it's ok to use businesses that are not FFLs for engraving, such as "trophy shops," I think it's important to clarify that point.

Also, I'll clarify my own post. Some business that aren't primarily gun related, including some trophy shops, do get an FFL so they can include things like engraving firearms in their business. I used to do business with a trophy shop that had an FFL, for that purpose. They did lots of firearms engraving, both decorative and for NFA Form 1 purposes. However, that seems to be the exception in my experience.

Also, there is no exception in the law that allows gunsmithing, including engraving, without a license, if the customer waits at the business while the work is being done. That is a myth I often see/hear repeated. There is an exception to the record keeping requirements of an FFL, that they are not required to enter the firearm in their A&D record if the firearm is returned to the customer the same business day, but the business must still be licensed.

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/does-gunsmith-need-enter-every-firearm-received-adjustment-or-repair-acquisition-and

[shane45]

"Also, there is no exception in the law that allows gunsmithing, including engraving, without a license, if the customer waits at the business while the work is being done. That is a myth I often see/hear repeated. There is an exception to the record keeping requirements of an FFL, that they are not required to enter the firearm in their A&D record if the firearm is returned to the customer the same business day, but the business must still be licensed. "

Are you sure this is a myth? I know several people advised as such from the state firearms investigation unit and ATF while they waited on their FFL.

[DMF13]

"Also, there is no exception in the law that allows gunsmithing, including engraving, without a license, if the customer waits at the business while the work is being done. That is a myth I often see/hear repeated. There is an exception to the record keeping requirements of an FFL, that they are not required to enter the firearm in their A&D record if the firearm is returned to the customer the same business day, but the business must still be licensed. "

Are you sure this is a myth? I know several people advised as such from the state firearms investigation unit and ATF while they waited on their FFL.
100% sure.

The law requires those engaged in the business of dealing in firearms, which includes engraving, to have a federal firearms license. There is a record keeping exception for licensees to not log a firearm into the A&D record, as cited above, if the firearm is returned the same business day. However, there is NO exception to needing a federal license to be engaged in the business of dealing in firearms, including engraving.

However, feel free to cite the portion of the US Code, that you think creates an exception to the licensing requirement in 18USC923(a). ATF Rule 2009-1 is also relevant as it states, in pertinent part, "Any person who is engaged in the business of camouflaging or engraving firearms as described in this ruling must be licensed as a dealer, which includes a gunsmith, under the Gun Control Act."

There is no exception in the law for unlicensed gunsmithing based on the customer waiting while the work is done. I seriously doubt any ATF person said there is, as that is absolutely false, and comments by some State person have zero relevance to the realities of Federal law.

No need to take my word for it though, feel free to write the ATF and ask if you can engrave firearms as a business, without a federal firearms license. They will respond in writing, with the proper citations of the law.

[TGS]

DMF13,

You know, it's possible to share information without constantly being a condescending prick to everyone.

[DMF13]

I provided a citation originally, showing that there is only a record keeping exception. Then was asked if I was sure, by someone claiming to have conflicting information, supposedly from ATF, which is nonsense. So I provided additional citations clarifying what the law requires, and the additional relevant ruling, in writing, published by ATF.

Since he claimed to have gotten his info from ATF, which again is nonsense, as no ATF Industry Operations Investigator (the people who handle the regulatory function of ATF, including licensing) would tell an applicant it was okay to engage in the business of dealing in firearms before a license was issued, I encouraged him to get it in writing from ATF rather than take my word for it.

How else would you like me to sugar coat it, so that it doesn't offend your delicate feelings?

:rolleyes:

[LittleLebowski]

Tech forum, talk about tech stuff. Thanks.