Three Row Car Based SUV/Crossover

[Doc_Glock]

We are in the market for a new vehicle. It’s for my wife to generally do errands and to have one lower mileage car for big trips. It has to get up our big hill in snow and she wants AWD.

While we know that another minivan is the right answer, this dear lady has put in her time with them and wants something...different. We have narrowed it down to unibody SUVs specifically a Toyota Highlander AWD.

Are there any strong contenders we should also be considering? We already drove an Explorer and new Traverse and a 4Runner just for completeness to rule out more truck based SUVs. Going to drive a Pilot this next week. The car mags love the CX9, but I think it would be smaller than we want.

It kind of comes down to Highlander versus Pilot right now and I’m not sure either is a bad choice.

Any input appreciated.

[JHC]

This would be my choice. But I am a Subaru homer if for no other reason their reknown AWD system. When I was considering an Highlander before getting an Outback ultimately, I read some pretty "meh" reviews of the Highlander's "token" AWD. It didn't impress me much in test drive so I didn't look very deeply.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZcV8alQaA4

[rob_s]

Wife has had a Pilot for the last 3 or 4 years (it's the "current" model that was brand new when we bought). She's been happy with it, and I have too when I drive it. My only complaint is that I'd have preferred the AWD, and the auto-shut-off at stoplights annoys me. We also had a rat in the garage eating the wires, but I understand that's a common issue on modern cars with vegetable-based insulation, so not a Honda/Pilot-specific problem?

the third row has been fine for the kids when they get "bumped" back a row so that we can carry adults in the middle row, otherwise the 3rd row stays folded/collapsed.

[Guerrero]

Have you looked at the Honda Pilot? Our family has been very happy with Hondas, and I've been looking at a Pilot for when my Odyssey minivan finally dies.

[Doc_Glock]

We also had a rat in the garage eating the wires, but I understand that's a common issue on modern cars with vegetable-based insulation, so not a Honda/Pilot-specific problem?

It seems to be a common Honda V-6 problem and is about the only issue I have had (three times) with my 265,000 mile Odyssey. They love to chew that knock sensor in the valley of the V6.

[flyrodr]

I've had good luck with Subarus (Well, except for the time my WRX got rear-ended and totaled by a U-Haul. But even then the integrity was impressive; doors still opened, and we walked away). Currently have a Forester, and am thinking it's a bit small. Looked at and test drove the Ascent. It's pretty impressive, and the 2.4 turbo, while sounding small, seemed to be pretty peppy. Subaru is putting it in the Outback and Legacy for 2020. Seemed about the size of my old Explorer. I'm still pondering. Has mid row option of two captain's chairs or bench, for seating capacity of 7 or 8, respectively. And Consumer's Reports, if you like their ratings, gave it a 96. Might consider it.

[Kanye Wyoming]

I’ve had a CX-9 for a little over a year now and I absolutely love it. I haven’t looked up the specs versus the Highlander but basically it’s yuuuuuge. Very comfortable, solid acceleration and 21.5 MPG. IMHO it’s a slightly better value than the Highlander. Nothing against the Highlander, I had one of those a few years ago, and you can’t go wrong with either one. But if I had to choose I’d choose the CX-9.

[BN]

39181

My wife's new ride. 2019 Toyota Highlander SE.

She had bought a new 2002 Highlander when they first came out. She drove it for 14 years and put 250,000 miles on it. In 2016 it needed some relatively minor repairs that would have been more than the book value and she traded it for a 2016 Subaru Legacy. She liked the Subaru but missed the size of the Highlander. Now we have a teenager that will drive the Legacy and Susan needs a new car. She first drove an Outback and an Ascent. She liked the Ascent until she drove the Highlander. Toyota has been making dependable Highlanders for over 15 years. The Ascent is a new vehicle. The Highlander has a V-6 with 295 HP. The Ascent is a new engine, a 2.5 liter 4 cylinder with a turbocharger. The Toyota easily has more stuff when you step on the gas. We'll let you know how it does after she drives this one for 14 years. ;)

[JAD]

We are in the market for a new vehicle. It’s for my wife to generally do errands and to have one lower mileage car for big trips. It has to get up our big hill in snow and she wants AWD.

While we know that another minivan is the right answer, this dear lady has put in her time with them and wants something...different. We have narrowed it down to unibody SUVs specifically a Toyota Highlander AWD.

Are there any strong contenders we should also be considering? We already drove an Explorer and new Traverse and a 4Runner just for completeness to rule out more truck based SUVs. Going to drive a Pilot this next week. The car mags love the CX9, but I think it would be smaller than we want.

It kind of comes down to Highlander versus Pilot right now and I’m not sure either is a bad choice.

Any input appreciated.

I've had AWD cars of a lot of stripes, and I think Subaru's approach is quantitatively better. Not losing your ass in snow is a pretty big safety feature, and I think in that sense rubies are a little safer than other cars.

I looked at the Ascent -- my wife is obsessed with having a third row, for no actual practical reason -- and I didn't think it was that much bigger inside than my Outback. Unless I need a place to put a fourth and fifth little, I think the Outback is a little more comfortable in size. The 2.5i is bullshit, but the 3.6R is a nice power plant.

[GJM]

I understand the new design, 2020 Ford Explorer, starts shipping in July. We are looking at an ST, with the 400 horsepower engine, to replace a boring current year 4Runner.

[Sigfan26]

I understand the new design, 2020 Ford Explorer, starts shipping in July. We are looking at an ST, with the 400 horsepower engine, to replace a boring current year 4Runner.

They look like they’re going to be pretty damn cool!


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[Doc_Glock]

39181

My wife's new ride. 2019 Toyota Highlander SE.

Toyota has been making dependable Highlanders for over 15 years. The Ascent is a new vehicle. The Highlander has a V-6 with 295 HP. The Ascent is a new engine, a 2.5 liter 4 cylinder with a turbocharger. The Toyota easily has more stuff when you step on the gas. We'll let you know how it does after she drives this one for 14 years. ;)

Thanks for that post. Yeah. I like Subarus, but my hesitations are:

CVT transmission: who knows?

Turbocharged engine: I realize they are the future, but prefer displacement and the Toyota V6 is incredibly proven. Turbos just drive weird in my experience.

New model: I don’t like cars at the beginning of their design roll out. The Highlander is at the end. Our 2002 end of third generation 4 Runner has been completely boring for eight years.

AWD is not a huge issue. Although my wife requires it, it will get used 3 days a year max.

[Doc_Glock]

I understand the new design, 2020 Ford Explorer, starts shipping in July. We are looking at an ST, with the 400 horsepower engine, to replace a boring current year 4Runner.

I liked the Explorer. But this is her car and she had some nits to pick regarding steering wheel and purse placement options:)

[JHC]

Here's another Ascent review.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXwgwY5wsaU

[Spartan1980]

I just bought a Subaru Crosstrek. It's my first Subaru, and it's still new to me, but I fricken love the thing so far. Totally blown away with the build quality so far.
As a bonus, it's available in FDE!

39191

[vcdgrips]

While I think the offerings of Toyota and Suburu are likely more reliable, if I were in the market for 3 rows I would at least take a spin in a VW Atlas. They have reviewed fairly well and have a 6 yr/72K bumper to bumper warranty which is 2x that of the others.

Something to think about.

My impression is that is VW still in wheeler/dealer mode for customers with strong credit given "dieselgate." VW is highly motivated to get their mark back on the road and has been fairly aggressive in their out the door pricing.

[Doc_Glock]

Okay. We just drove the Pilot. That muddied the waters considerably. Extremely nice vehicle. We both preferred the driving manners and interior ergonomics. It’s a much more clean, intuitive design than the Highlander, Scandinavian almost.

Interior room much better.

I generally love Hondas, but for this car’s application leaned Toyota.

We are going to have to pick a trim level and drive them back to back to decide, I think.

The EX-L seems to be the sweetspot for the Pilot. We don’t need the extra time electronic doo dads of the Touring, and I am not sure if it worth the extra money to go from a 6 speed Honda to 9 speed ZF transmission?

Any input on that decision would be helpful from transmission guys here.

For now I have ruled out the Mazda and Subaru. And it is down to Highlander vs Pilot.

[Sigfan26]

The EX-L seems to be the sweetspot for the Pilot. We don’t need the extra time electronic doo dads of the Touring, and I am not sure if it worth the extra money to go from a 6 speed Honda to 9 speed ZF transmission?

Any input on that decision would be helpful from transmission guys here.



Have you been able to compare the driving characteristics of both?


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[Doc_Glock]

Have you been able to compare the driving characteristics of both?


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No. We only drove the 9 speed today and I don’t know how much one can learn on a short test drive. I did like the bitchen paddle shifters but disliked the engine off at stoplight feature that the 9 speed has the the 6 speed doesn’t.

Plus, we don’t have a car under 11 years old so anything is going to drive amazing.

[0ddl0t]

Just helped my mother make a purchase in this segment (though not with AWD) so I'll copy the research I did of the contenders. The prices are estimated post-haggle and are for models equipped with her minimum options (full safety package with automatic emergency braking, leather/pleather, multizone AC, Android Auto, etc)

Subaru Ascent Limited
$37,000
26/20 mpg
4 star rollover (5 star everything else)
all wheel drive
Consumer Reports Recommended

Mazda CX-9 Touring
$33,000
28/22 mpg
4 star rollover and frontal crash, 5 star everything else
front wheel drive
Consumer Reports Recommended (though 4/5 - "good" instead of "excellent" - reliability)

2020 Kia Telluride
$29,000
26/20 mpg
Not crash tested yet, but based on sorento (5 star)
Front wheel drive
Add $2,000 to have 2nd row captains seats (7 passenger instead of 8 for the bench)
Consumer Reports Recommended (though 3/5 - "fair" instead of "excellent" - predicted reliability. But it does have a 20 year, 200,000 mile powertrain warranty)

2019 Toyota Highlander LE-plus
$34,000
27/21 mpg
4/5 stars rollover & frontal crash (5 star everything else)
front wheel drive
No android auto, subtract $3,000 for cloth seats
Consumer Reports Recommended

2019 Toyota Highlander Hybrid XLE
$39,000
28/30 mpg
4/5 stars rollover & frontal crash (5 star everything else)
front wheel drive
No android auto, subtract $3,000 for cloth seats
125,000 miles to pay off hybrid cost at $3.50/gallon
Consumer Reports Recommended

Honda Pilot EX-L
$35,000
27/19 mpg
4/5 stars rollover & frontal crash (5 star everything else)
front wheel drive, subtract $3,000 for cloth seats
Consumer Reports Recommended (though 3/5 - "fair" instead of "excellent" - predicted reliability.)

2020 Toyota Highlander
$??,???
34mpg
probably 5 star crash tests
includes Android Auto

The 2019 Nissan Pathfinder SL
$35,000
27/20 mpg
3/5 consumer reports predicted reliability (minor problem areas: transmission, electronics, paint & trim, & in car entertainment)
4/5 star frontal crash test and rollover
front wheel drive

39199

She decided on the CX9 mainly because the local Mazda dealership is excellent (stuff like lifetime free car washes), the mpg was better, and she loved the "birds eye view" display for parking:
39201

The redesigned 2020 Highlander is due in December (hybrid version in February), but she didn't want to wait and the local dealership is awful to work with. Still, I bet it would have won if the dealership wasn't so terrible.

My favorite was actually the Kia Telluride and it would have been my choice for a lease, but for a purchase expected to last 10 years it seemed like too much of a gamble. The Pilot might have been more of a contender except for surprisingly bad Consumer Reports reliability history (mainly transmission).

[Doc_Glock]

Thanks so much for that!

Trannys seem to be a Honda weak point.

[Sigfan26]

No. We only drove the 9 speed today and I don’t know how much one can learn on a short test drive. I did like the bitchen paddle shifters but disliked the engine off at stoplight feature that the 9 speed has the the 6 speed doesn’t.

Plus, we don’t have a car under 11 years old so anything is going to drive amazing.

Engine off is easy to turn off (generally, not really familiar with Honda). I would drive both and ask if you can do a few miles on the highway.


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[dkv]

We had a 2014 Highlander - same generation. We loved it. 90k miles, nothing malfunctioned or rattled. If I had my way, we would have kept it until it died.

I'm a big fan of Subarus, had a recent Impreza and have a '16 WRX. I wouldn't buy a Subaru over a Toyota but for a need for better AWD.

We've had Hondas, too. Never a Pilot. I don't think you can go wrong with a Pilot, but I liked the Highlander better.

[Spartan1980]

I went from a 2014 Honda CRV which we really liked, to the Subaru. The CRV got T-boned lightly and insurance totaled it. No injuries or airbag deployment and the other car didn't even appear to have more than paint damage. We decided to step down in size.

What I found in my research is that Nissan has more experience with CVT transmissions and also seems to have the crappiest track record with them. That was unfortunate because the Nissan Rogue we looked at was very nice in the interior, probably the nicest of the bunch. However the driving ergos weren't very good, bad blind spot and sloped hood made it hard to see what's in front up close.

Honda HRV was a top contender.

Toyota C-HR was also a definite like and would have been a sale, but it was a no-go due to being a brand new rollout.

Since buying the Crosstrek, I've found the Subaru engineers don't play around. They really like oil volume in that boxer engine and they put serious oil pumps in them. As a result they also spec a 27PSI oil filter bypass valve. On a cold start they have the PCM running the engine at 2000 RPM for about the first 30 seconds to a minute even if it's 90 degrees outside then it starts head down to a normal idle speed slowly. That oil filter spec starts to make sense with that in mind. Most manufacturers worship at the altar of global warming and CAFE compliance. I like that Subaru goes their own way. Sure they spec a 0W20 oil, but they pump the shit out of it, 0.0000001 MPG per year MPG decrease be damned. I like that.

[JAD]

disliked the engine off at stoplight feature that the 9 speed has the the 6 speed doesn’t.
.

Stop/start saves a lot of gas. I first had it in a ‘14 Volvo; it took two days to get used to. I expect it to be a standard feature on most cars fairly soon.

[Singlestack Wonder]

When it comes to all wheel drive there is Subaru and then everything else......

[Sigfan26]

When it comes to all wheel drive there is Subaru and then everything else......

I wanted to buy a Subaru! A forester XT was a top pick. The CVT killed it (for me, at least). I am surprised they lack a performance SUV.


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[LockedBreech]

When it comes to all wheel drive there is Subaru and then everything else......

I have never regretted buying my Subie (2016 Outback Limited) once in the last 3 1/2 years I've had it. In full scale rocky mountain blizzards I stand toe to toe with 4x4 pickup trucks. After 11 years driving a FWD Honda Accord (also a great car for what it was) it's a totally different class of rugged in bad weather.

[rob_s]

Engine off is easy to turn off (generally, not really familiar with Honda). I would drive both and ask if you can do a few miles on the highway.


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In the case of the Pilot, it’s not. Or, it wasn’t the last time I tried finding a way.

[JHC]

I went from a 2014 Honda CRV which we really liked, to the Subaru. The CRV got T-boned lightly and insurance totaled it. No injuries or airbag deployment and the other car didn't even appear to have more than paint damage. We decided to step down in size.

What I found in my research is that Nissan has more experience with CVT transmissions and also seems to have the crappiest track record with them. That was unfortunate because the Nissan Rogue we looked at was very nice in the interior, probably the nicest of the bunch. However the driving ergos weren't very good, bad blind spot and sloped hood made it hard to see what's in front up close.

Honda HRV was a top contender.

Toyota C-HR was also a definite like and would have been a sale, but it was a no-go due to being a brand new rollout.

Since buying the Crosstrek, I've found the Subaru engineers don't play around. They really like oil volume in that boxer engine and they put serious oil pumps in them. As a result they also spec a 27PSI oil filter bypass valve. On a cold start they have the PCM running the engine at 2000 RPM for about the first 30 seconds to a minute even if it's 90 degrees outside then it starts head down to a normal idle speed slowly. That oil filter spec starts to make sense with that in mind. Most manufacturers worship at the altar of global warming and CAFE compliance. I like that Subaru goes their own way. Sure they spec a 0W20 oil, but they pump the shit out of it, 0.0000001 MPG per year MPG decrease be damned. I like that.

Sometimes I LIKE things I don't really understand. :D

[JHC]

I wanted to buy a Subaru! A forester XT was a top pick. The CVT killed it (for me, at least). I am surprised they lack a performance SUV.


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+1 they should offer their Forester Sport with a turbo . . . unless their 3.6 would fit. :D

Our '13 Forester was the last model pre CVT and had an old style four speed AT. Not super great MPG but its got good grunt around town. Our '18 Outback has the 3.6L engine and the CVT and I have not lacked for power when I wanted it. Time will tell for longevity but the Outbacks have had them quite awhile now.

[Doc_Glock]

In the case of the Pilot, it’s not. Or, it wasn’t the last time I tried finding a way.

The 2019 Pilot we drove had a giant easy to find button center console to defeat it.

[Doc_Glock]

Our '13 Forester was the last model pre CVT and had an old style four speed AT. Not super great MPG but its got good grunt around town. Our '18 Outback has the 3.6L engine and the CVT and I have not lacked for power when I wanted it. Time will tell for longevity but the Outbacks have had them quite awhile now.

I just remember the days when CVTs couldn’t handle any torque.

[rob_s]

The 2019 Pilot we drove had a giant easy to find button center console to defeat it.

yes, we have that.

It resets every single time you get in the car. It's annoying as shit, especially for a car I don't drive all that often.

I want it off, permanently. Oftentimes you can find a hack for this online, but when I checked last there wasn't one.

[Doc_Glock]

yes, we have that.

It resets every single time you get in the car. It's annoying as shit, especially for a car I don't drive all that often.

I want it off, permanently. Oftentimes you can find a hack for this online, but when I checked last there wasn't one.

Yes, we were informed it could not be defeated as default by the dealer which is a bother. I’ve never loved with the system so unsure if it would bother me.

My main question is: is the ZF 9 speed worth it?

[Darth_Uno]

Stop/start saves a lot of gas. I first had it in a ‘14 Volvo; it took two days to get used to. I expect it to be a standard feature on most cars fairly soon.

We had that on a Jeep Compass we rented on vacation. It’s weird, and different, and I don’t like it.


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[DocGKR]

Chevy Suburban, Subaru Ascent, Honda Pilot, Toyota Highlander.

[JAD]

We had that on a Jeep Compass we rented on vacation. It’s weird, and different, and I don’t like it.


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It is weird and different. As I said, I got over it, as did my incredibly intolerant Okie wife. It can be shut off with a dash switch.

[rob_s]

My wife has stopped pushing the button to turn off the auto-start as well. I can't stand the hitch in the giddyup so I try to shut it off.

[Wondering Beard]

Stop/start saves a lot of gas. I first had it in a ‘14 Volvo; it took two days to get used to. I expect it to be a standard feature on most cars fairly soon.

Could you expand on that?

I believe you as I know little about cars but it does sound counterintuitive.

[Spartan1980]

Sometimes I LIKE things I don't really understand. :D

CAFE payments to the .Fed by the automakers are a real thing. Currently the automakers have to have an average of 54.5 MPG for all the vehicles they sell, but Trump has frozen (or is trying to freeze) that at the pre-Obama number of 37 MPG. If they fall short of that, they have to pay the .fed a "penalty" payment for non-compliance. They can fall short based on sales too, like if Ford sells more F150s and Explorers than their Focus, so there are a lot of factors at work.

Pumping the oil through an engine takes a surprising amount of power to do. It's a definite eye opener the first time you prime a pump when you build an engine and it is a definite drag on fuel consumption. So over the years the higher ups at the automakers have pulled rank over the design engineers and made them spec lighter and lighter viscosity oils and other fluids because they are easier to pump and have less drag. That's why if I look in the owner's manual for my F150 with a 5.4L I see that it says to use 5W30 or 10W30 oils, but yet they've since issued a TSB (technical service bulletin) that states that 5W20 will "yield better performance and durability" and that's what is to be used. It's a complete crock. The same vehicle with the same engine is spec'd to use 10W30 in Australia. Kind of odd. :rolleyes: I run 10W30 in my F150.

The automakers are basically being "shook down" by the .gov and they do all they can to minimize the damage. FYI, be on the lookout, 0W16 weight oils are coming soon. And they'll be touted to be superior to anything else out there. :rolleyes:

[Darth_Uno]

I don’t want to be the guy that spouts “my buddy said” nonsense, but on another forum a member in the auto design industry said trucks and SUV’s are the money-maker. The only reason GM/Ford/Dodge still even makes compact cars is because it’s cheaper to make hardly any money on fuel efficient cars and get the CAFE credit, vs just taking the CAFE hit on gas hog trucks.

Never mind the impact of building and maintaining said cars. From an environmental standpoint, it’s spending a dollar to save a dime.




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[JAD]

Could you expand on that?

I believe you as I know little about cars but it does sound counterintuitive.

I just have a user's perspective but someone like Spartan can probably add technical.

In my experience with the Volvo (2014 V60, shitty car in general) my wife drove it with the s/s switched off for a month because she didn't like it, and then eventually caved in and left it on. When she did we jumped like 2 mpg (I have slept since then). That was Kansas City driving, not so much interstate.

From an industry perspective all I know is 1) the lithium ion batteries for S.S, which are different than normal lead acid starter batteries and different than propulsion batteries for PHEV/HEV/BEVs, are in crazy demand and b) the car makers like it because it makes the fleet consumption numbers better.

[theJanitor]

I've got no ideas about the cars, but long term, I'd rather own a NA motor over a turbo'd one.

[Doc_Glock]

I spent a considerable amount of time looking into the Pilot vs Highlander AWD systems, and the Honda clearly outperforms the Toyota under most circumstances. Technical explanation here:

http://youwheel.com/home/2017/05/07/acura-sh-awd-a-comprehensive-analysis/

Video:


https://youtu.be/TXSK-B_Hi_Y

[Doc_Glock]

Welp, finally got a chance to check out all the various trims and test drive the Pilot and Highlander back to back. Highlander wins. Easily actually.

Pilot drives and feels like a minivan. That isn't a bad thing, it just isn't what my lady is looking for. It excels at interior space, visibility, and the third row hands down is easier to access and use.

The Highlander had a much more refined drivetrain, was quieter, handled nicely, and for our limited needs, I will take the less capable AWD system.

Looked hard at the SE, but actually preferred the second row bench to the captain's chairs that are mandatory on the SE. So XLE it is.

Thanks for all the input folks.

[0ddl0t]

Here's what is known about the 2020 Highlander redesign, due in 5 months: https://www.edmunds.com/toyota/highlander/2020/

If you don't need it soon, I'd wait either to get the updated model or to get a much better deal on the "old" 2019...

[ranger]

I am preparing for retirement and - hopefully - to travel all over the US by car. We just bought a 2019 Subaru Outback 3.6R Touring. We were looking for 1) station wagon like utility, 2) all the new digital safety features, 3) lots of room without lots of size (i.e. - did not want to park a Suburban, etc.), 4) AWD in case bad weather. We purposely got the top of the line Touring and the 6 cylinder engine. No - it is not a 3 row but we chose not to go that big.


We went ahead and pulled the trigger in the 2019 even though we know there is a major redesign in 2020 - wife wanted the 6 versus the turbo 4 in 2020. I got a great deal - I shopped around and several Subaru dealers offered $5000 off list plus 0% financing for 3 years. Worked with the dealer who had the color my wife wanted - Green - plus best tradein on my 2011 BMW 335i coupe.


So far it is meeting our expectations. I am not a fan of the CVT but I made that compromise. It is not a performance SUV but I was not willing to pay that price. Plus - I got my 2015 RAM 1500 back from my wife!

[Doc_Glock]

Well, picked this up today. Thanks all.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190706/fa9627d00e3bfbc17b396ca2ce9aadae.jpg

Coming from a bunch of 15-20 year old cars this thing is mind blowing. The wife is very satisfied. The auto off function does not bother me in the least.

Gonna miss this old girl but hopefully I can find a good home for her with someone who will use her capability more. Will..not..die.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190706/5b1aad7cd1bbf811d983b0565ef98d0a.jpg

[TGS]

CAFE payments to the .Fed by the automakers are a real thing. Currently the automakers have to have an average of 54.5 MPG for all the vehicles they sell, but Trump has frozen (or is trying to freeze) that at the pre-Obama number of 37 MPG. If they fall short of that, they have to pay the .fed a "penalty" payment for non-compliance. They can fall short based on sales too, like if Ford sells more F150s and Explorers than their Focus, so there are a lot of factors at work.

Pumping the oil through an engine takes a surprising amount of power to do. It's a definite eye opener the first time you prime a pump when you build an engine and it is a definite drag on fuel consumption. So over the years the higher ups at the automakers have pulled rank over the design engineers and made them spec lighter and lighter viscosity oils and other fluids because they are easier to pump and have less drag. That's why if I look in the owner's manual for my F150 with a 5.4L I see that it says to use 5W30 or 10W30 oils, but yet they've since issued a TSB (technical service bulletin) that states that 5W20 will "yield better performance and durability" and that's what is to be used. It's a complete crock. The same vehicle with the same engine is spec'd to use 10W30 in Australia. Kind of odd. :rolleyes: I run 10W30 in my F150.

The automakers are basically being "shook down" by the .gov and they do all they can to minimize the damage. FYI, be on the lookout, 0W16 weight oils are coming soon. And they'll be touted to be superior to anything else out there. :rolleyes:

I don't know if that's entirely true. The clearances on my current day Subaru are definitely tighter than my old Subaru, and my 1985 BMW had extremely loose clearances comparatively. My Outback uses 0-20 as factory recommended, which has a higher flashpoint than the older recommended 5-30 and 10-30...….at one point, some Subarus were burning up cylinders because of the higher emission standards. This is ameliorated by using better oil for the task, as I understand it.

My old '85 BMW used 20-50 by factory recommendations. Engines have continually become more advanced, and continually gone to lighter weights of oil, yet with few exceptions the cars are more reliable than ever......especially American cars. American cars during the 80s and 90s were complete fucking garbage.

I think there's a lot of people these days who are confusing the cart with the horse and who's pulling. I would imagine it's a bigger deal for some cars than others, though.

JRB, Aray, anything to share?

(ETA: Darth Uno, accidentally quoted you at first. Sorry about that if you got an errant notification.)

[Aray]

I don't know if that's entirely true. The clearances on my current day Subaru are definitely tighter than my old Subaru, and my 1985 BMW had extremely loose clearances comparatively. My Outback uses 0-20 as factory recommended, which has a higher flashpoint than the older recommended 5-30 and 10-30...….at one point, some Subarus were burning up cylinders because of the higher emission standards. This is ameliorated by using better oil for the task, as I understand it.

My old '85 BMW used 20-50 by factory recommendations. Engines have continually become more advanced, and continually gone to lighter weights of oil, yet with few exceptions the cars are more reliable than ever......especially American cars. American cars during the 80s and 90s were complete fucking garbage.

I think there's a lot of people these days who are confusing the cart with the horse and who's pulling. I would imagine it's a bigger deal for some cars than others, though.

JRB, Aray, anything to share?

(ETA: Darth Uno, accidentally quoted you at first. Sorry about that if you got an errant notification.)

I agree that the main motivation to reduce oil viscosity has been reducing parasitic (pumping) losses to improve fuel mileage.

I don’t agree that engine lifespan has been significantly effected. Advances in oil technology have made the dropping viscosities possible and successful. I remember when 75k miles was “a lotta miles” on an engine.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Duelist]

...snip...

Gonna miss this old girl but hopefully I can find a good home for her with someone who will use her capability more. Will..not..die.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190706/5b1aad7cd1bbf811d983b0565ef98d0a.jpg

Is that a 4Runner?

[Doc_Glock]

Is that a 4Runner?


Yes. And it sold in 3 hours! Crazy.

[Suvorov]

Yes. And it sold in 3 hours! Crazy.

What took it so long?

Count me as a hard core member of the 4Runner Cult. Nice 3rd Gens are getting rarer and rarer.

My experience with 4Runners makes me kind of partial to Toyota vehicles, but that said we bought my wife a used 2014 CR-V a couple years ago and I continue to be impressed by that little SUV. It is very well designed, roomy, drives wonderfully, and gets 30+ mpg with a family of 4 in it. If the Pilot is anything like the CR-V in execution it would be a wonderful vehicle.

[Doc_Glock]

What took it so long?

Count me as a hard core member of the 4Runner Cult. Nice 3rd Gens are getting rarer and rarer.

My experience with 4Runners makes me kind of partial to Toyota vehicles, but that said we bought my wife a used 2014 CR-V a couple years ago and I continue to be impressed by that little SUV. It is very well designed, roomy, drives wonderfully, and gets 30+ mpg with a family of 4 in it. If the Pilot is anything like the CR-V in execution it would be a wonderful vehicle.

Bought that 3rd Gen in 2012 for $8500 and thought I was nuts to pay so much for a 180k vehicle. Updated all the 90k maintenance, tires and shocks then did nothing but change oil and replace bulbs for the next seven years. Total cost of ownership depreciation, maintenance repairs:~$5500 for 7 years use. That is just nuts.

I think we just lost that much on the new one in depreciation driving it home. Ah well I am really impressed with it and this end of design life Highlander is a pretty impressive vehicle dude. The lack of CarPlay is a non issue connected to wife’s phone instantly and voice recognition as good as Siri.

Here’s what blows me away. This is an incredible luxury item, yet they are totally common in today’s world. These vehicles (all manufacturers) should actually cost WAY more when you compare the value of the engineering, manufacturing and raw materials to something like an iPhone. The car costs 40x more than that phone. I think it is worth easily 10x that. Either phone companies are screwing us or car manufacturers are barely scraping by. I have no idea how so much value can be packed into that 40k price. And that coming from a tight wad with sticker shock.

[Suvorov]

Bought that 3rd Gen in 2012 for $8500 and thought I was nuts to pay so much for a 180k vehicle. Updated all the 90k maintenance, tires and shocks then did nothing but change oil and replace bulbs for the next seven years. Total cost of ownership depreciation, maintenance repairs:~$5500 for 7 years use. That is just nuts.

I think we just lost that much on the new one in depreciation driving it home. Ah well I am really impressed with it and this end of design life Highlander is a pretty impressive vehicle dude. The lack of CarPlay is a non issue connected to wife’s phone instantly and voice recognition as good as Siri.

Here’s what blows me away. This is an incredible luxury item, yet they are totally common in today’s world. These vehicles (all manufacturers) should actually cost WAY more when you compare the value of the engineering, manufacturing and raw materials to something like an iPhone. The car costs 40x more than that phone. I think it is worth easily 10x that. Either phone companies are screwing us or car manufacturers are barely scraping by. I have no idea how so much value can be packed into that 40k price. And that coming from a tight wad with sticker shock.


Congrats on the car!

I'm happy for whoever bought your 4Runner as well. I honestly know more people who have had their 4Runners totaled in accidents than I know people who have junked them of "old age."

[JRB]

I don't know if that's entirely true. The clearances on my current day Subaru are definitely tighter than my old Subaru, and my 1985 BMW had extremely loose clearances comparatively. My Outback uses 0-20 as factory recommended, which has a higher flashpoint than the older recommended 5-30 and 10-30...….at one point, some Subarus were burning up cylinders because of the higher emission standards. This is ameliorated by using better oil for the task, as I understand it.

My old '85 BMW used 20-50 by factory recommendations. Engines have continually become more advanced, and continually gone to lighter weights of oil, yet with few exceptions the cars are more reliable than ever......especially American cars. American cars during the 80s and 90s were complete fucking garbage.

I think there's a lot of people these days who are confusing the cart with the horse and who's pulling. I would imagine it's a bigger deal for some cars than others, though.

JRB, Aray, anything to share?

(ETA: Darth Uno, accidentally quoted you at first. Sorry about that if you got an errant notification.)

Subarus were burning up cylinders and destroying pistons because of the relatively poor oiling system the EJ series engines suffer from, combined with exceptionally lean fuel mapping that kept targeting stoich conditions at dangerously high rpm and boost levels. Aftermarket tuning was absolutely a reliability modification and they were mapped so lean to pass Fed emissions standards.

I have based oil choices on HP level for some time and if the engine is stock or near stock I have seen excellent results with the Dexos-1 certified Mobil-1 0w20 and 5w30 for applications using those viscosities. For much higher HP (generally 50% more than OE or more) I switch to Valvoline VR1 10w30 or 20w50. This is regardless of the stock clearances or recommendations because higher component loading at higher rpm simply needs better oil, and VR1 has proven itself to me in countless bigh HP builds I've worked on. Overall I am not convinced that thicker oil is stronger because I've seen a lot of engine failures particularly in WRX's with the oft touted Rotella T that's intended for diesel engines. Diesels have very high component loading but generally very low bearing speed and piston speed and overall very low revs so I have concluded that rotella is either a mediocre oil and does not mitigate the design flaws of the Subaru EJ engines oiling system, or it is an excellent diesel oil that is not formulated for the higher rpm and bearing speeds of a gasoline engine.

With modern European cars, particularly turbocharged ones, the Euro formula 0w40 Mobil 1 is excellent and I've been experimenting with it in some of my favorite older turbo Japanese cars (an MR2 turbo and a 300ZXTT) and so far so good, though I haven't had a chance to send oil samples out because of work obligations, and likely won't for quite some time. The older German made Castrol Syntec was also outstanding but it is hard to find these days.

For older cars like your BMW, I would choose the VR1 20w50 or Mobil 1 0w40 Euro. In colder climates and daily driving I'd lean toward the 0w40, for track days and performance driving I'd lean toward the VR1.

That all said, on newer vehicles there can be warranty claim issues if you change the oil yourself or use oil different than recommended. So if anything does go wrong in the engine they will generally try to weasel out of covering it under warranty.
But if you pay the arm and a leg to have a record of oil changes at the dealership using the factory recommended oil at the correct intervals, they will have a much harder time denying warranty coverage.

[rob_s]

I understand the new design, 2020 Ford Explorer, starts shipping in July. We are looking at an ST, with the 400 horsepower engine, to replace a boring current year 4Runner.

Still considering one of these?

I admit, I'm getting more and more interested in them.