View Full Version : H&K in trouble?
Sauer Koch
06-16-2019, 10:39 PM
Have any of you seen this?
https://www.militarytimes.com/off-duty/gearscout/irons/2019/06/12/heckler-koch-maker-of-the-marine-corps-m27-is-in-dire-straits
VT1032
06-16-2019, 11:00 PM
I bet if they started spitting out MR556's in the $1k to 1,200 range and started selling semi-auto G36's and UMP's in the US, they would start making some money. At $1,200, the MR556 makes quite a bit of sense. It's a nice rifle, but not a $3,000 nice rifle...
willie
06-16-2019, 11:20 PM
The dummies nixed sales to Israel because the company objected to Israel's stance on the Palestinian Question.
I bet that they regret that decision now.
Arbninftry
06-16-2019, 11:26 PM
I own a lot of Hks.
Now, price point drives sales. If a HK sold a DI carbine at 12-15 and a piston rifle at 2k. Fix what people want, a real rail on a USP, better triggers and 30 dollar magazine, they would sell a hell of a lot of guns. But I am just some dude taking a crap giving my $.02
HK HAS ALWAYS HATED ME
The dummies nixed sales to Israel because the company objected to Israel's stance on the Palestinian Question.
I bet that they regret that decision now.
That was the German Govt.
HK has been in trouble for years just like Colt. Both were bought out by companies that bled them for cash. HK has a double whammy because the German Govt hates arms sales and considers HK a necessary evil for supplying its own forces the German Govt has done the same thing to SIG.
rathos
06-16-2019, 11:41 PM
That is an easy fix, make those rifles in the US. that should also drop the price and people would buy more. They already have one factory here is what I understand to make pistols.
That was the German Govt.
HK has been in trouble for years just like Colt. Both were bought out by companies that bled them for cash. HK has a double whammy because the German Govt hates arms sales and considers HK a necessary evil for supplying its own forces the German Govt has done the same thing to SIG.
That is an easy fix, make those rifles in the US. that should also drop the price and people would buy more. They already have one factory here is what I understand to make pistols.
That is what SIG is doing.
HK has a factory in Columbus GA. They are supposed to be making the new Army Sniper and DMR Rifles in GA
RAM Engineer
06-17-2019, 12:11 PM
That is what SIG is doing.
HK has a factory in Columbus GA. They are supposed to be making the new Army Sniper and DMR Rifles in GA
scopes, not rifles.
scopes, not rifles.
Who ? SIG ? While it is true SIG has a small optics production facility in OR, mostly staffed by former Leupold personnel, most of their optics are made in Asia. They are also moving production of guns like the X5 and P210 that used to be made in Germany due to export restrictions by the German Govt.
SIG is making one of the scopes for the HK DMR (the other is an S&B) but HK is going to be making 417/MR762 rifles in GA. It’s not an accident HKs GA facility is right outside Ft. Benning.
RAM Engineer
06-17-2019, 02:31 PM
Who ? SIG ? While it is true SIG has a small optics production facility in OR, mostly staffed by former Leupold personnel, most of their optics are made in Asia. They are also moving production of guns like the X5 and P210 that used to be made in Germany due to export restrictions by the German Govt.
SIG is making one of the scopes for the HK DMR (the other is an S&B) but HK is going to be making 417/MR762 rifles in GA. It’s not an accident HKs GA facility is right outside Ft. Benning.
Got it.
RAM Engineer
06-17-2019, 02:36 PM
[QUOTE=RAM Engineer;892799] my reading comprehension is shot today. Never mind me.
Got it. it just sounded like you said SIG was making Sniper and DMR rifles in GA.
SIG was the first German company to go big in US production but the left wing German Govts whacko export laws have HK and Walter following suit. It can get a little tricky for non MIL/GOV production because HK USA and Walter USA are considered to be separate YS companies by the German Govt so their version of ITAR applies to transfers of technology and intellectual property. So getting the CAD/CNC files etc to make civilian MR762 rifles can be a bit complicated.
These articles about the sky falling for HK have been popping up almost yearly for the last decade...….maybe more. I just know I've been reading them for at least a decade. Dagga Boy might be able to comment about the 90s from when he was hanging/working around some of the big gun magazine people/photographers.
Truth is, Germany needs HK. They can't afford to replace the G36 with an outside rifle, and will need HK to produce the HK433. They'll be kept on life support if needed until that contract starts receiving payment.
ralph
06-17-2019, 03:15 PM
These articles about the sky falling for HK have been popping up almost yearly for the last decade...….maybe more. I just know I've been reading them for at least a decade. Dagga Boy might be able to comment about the 90s from when he was hanging/working around some of the big gun magazine people/photographers.
Truth is, Germany needs HK. They can't afford to replace the G36 with an outside rifle, and will need HK to produce the HK433. They'll be kept on life support if needed until that contract starts receiving payment.
You're probably right but what Arbninftry said in post #4, is also true..as much as I like USPc's they're not worth $7-800 they get for them, especially with HK's dead in the water, rail system.. better triggers, pic rail, all would help along with being reasonably priced..
You're probably right but what Arbninftry said in post #4, is also true..as much as I like USPc's they're not worth $7-800 they get for them, especially with HK's dead in the water, rail system.. better triggers, pic rail, all would help along with being reasonably priced..
Oh believe me I think there's tons of things HK could have done smarter over the last couple decades.....I went through it the last time this topic came up (last year?).
Sauer Koch
06-18-2019, 07:49 AM
It was interesting to hear about how small of a company they are...you assume that a major arms mfg like that is a huge corporation, but it explains the erratic supply issues they have.
farscott
06-18-2019, 07:55 AM
[snip]
Truth is, Germany needs HK. They can't afford to replace the G36 with an outside rifle, and will need HK to produce the HK433. They'll be kept on life support if needed until that contract starts receiving payment.
Can you expound on why Germany needs HK and cannot afford an outside rifle? What is the issue that stops Germany from buying something from FNH, Steyr, or even Colt? Germany is not exactly poor, so the issue has to be related to a domestic sourcing requirement.
LittleLebowski
06-18-2019, 08:19 AM
Maybe the German gov't can find another reason to fine them this year, that should help.
Borderland
06-18-2019, 09:56 AM
It was interesting to hear about how small of a company they are...you assume that a major arms mfg like that is a huge corporation, but it explains the erratic supply issues they have.
My dealer has just about everything HK makes on a backorder status. There just isn't much in the pipeline.
I'm not sure why the US military would buy anything from a foreign mfg. That's just all kinds of wrong.
We have the adm taxing civilians with tariffs while the military buys arms from foreign mfg's. Seems a bit odd when the stated goal is to put America first.
Yes, this happened on the present adm's watch. https://www.guns.com/news/2018/04/30/hk-wins-29-million-contract-for-more-m27-rifles-to-marine-corps
Can you expound on why Germany needs HK and cannot afford an outside rifle? What is the issue that stops Germany from buying something from FNH, Steyr, or even Colt? Germany is not exactly poor, so the issue has to be related to a domestic sourcing requirement.
The German government is broke as fuck. The majority of their tanks and airplanes aren't in serviceable condition, for instance. So I'm guessing here, but given their state of military disrepair I highly doubt they'd be able to afford purchasing an outside rifle.
I'm not sure why the US military would buy anything from a foreign mfg. That's just all kinds of wrong.
We have the adm taxing civilians with tariffs while the military buys arms from foreign mfg's. Seems a bit odd when the stated goal is to put America first.
Well, we've been buying foreign military equipment for over a hundred years. Krag rifle, M1917 Enfield, Benet-Mercie M1909, technically even the Lewis by the time we bought them were foreign weapons. M240, M249, Mk 46, Mk48, M11, Mk25, Mk23, Mk24, M9...……..all "foreign" guns.
In many cases they're made here either partially or wholly, though. A good portion of the money is going back into the US economy. The M27 is made (partially) by Americans, in an American factory of the US subsidiary of HK.
LittleLebowski
06-18-2019, 11:20 AM
My dealer has just about everything HK makes on a backorder status. There just isn't much in the pipeline.
I'm not sure why the US military would buy anything from a foreign mfg. That's just all kinds of wrong.
We have the adm taxing civilians with tariffs while the military buys arms from foreign mfg's. Seems a bit odd when the stated goal is to put America first.
Yes, this happened on the present adm's watch. https://www.guns.com/news/2018/04/30/hk-wins-29-million-contract-for-more-m27-rifles-to-marine-corps
Trump did this. #OrangeManBad (https://pistol-forum.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=OrangeManBad)
farscott
06-18-2019, 12:57 PM
The German government is broke as fuck. The majority of their tanks and airplanes aren't in serviceable condition, for instance. So I'm guessing here, but given their state of military disrepair I highly doubt they'd be able to afford purchasing an outside rifle.
[snip]
Not sure the German government is "broke" as their 2-year, 5-year, and 10-year notes have a negative yield. In other words, people pay the German government for the opportunity to loan the German government money for a period of years. The German government profits from borrowing OPM. Germany's debt-to-GDP ratio is less than 0.64, which is much better than the USA's rating at 1.05. I wish I could be as broke as Germany.
LittleLebowski
06-18-2019, 12:57 PM
Not sure the German government is "broke" as their 2-year, 5-year, and 10-year notes have a negative yield. In other words, people pay the German government for the opportunity to loan the German government money for a period of years. The German government profits from borrowing OPM. Germany's debt-to-GDP ratio is less than 0.64, which is much better than the USA's rating at 1.05. I wish I could be as broke as Germany.
Yeah, I think that Merkel just doesn't care about military spending.
Not sure the German government is "broke" as their 2-year, 5-year, and 10-year notes have a negative yield. In other words, people pay the German government for the opportunity to loan the German government money for a period of years. The German government profits from borrowing OPM. Germany's debt-to-GDP ratio is less than 0.64, which is much better than the USA's rating at 1.05. I wish I could be as broke as Germany.
Yeah, I think that Merkel just doesn't care about military spending.
Probably that then. They certainly aren't funding their military properly.
Borderland
06-18-2019, 03:16 PM
The German government is broke as fuck. The majority of their tanks and airplanes aren't in serviceable condition, for instance. So I'm guessing here, but given their state of military disrepair I highly doubt they'd be able to afford purchasing an outside rifle.
Well, we've been buying foreign military equipment for over a hundred years. Krag rifle, M1917 Enfield, Benet-Mercie M1909, technically even the Lewis by the time we bought them were foreign weapons. M240, M249, Mk 46, Mk48, M11, Mk25, Mk23, Mk24, M9...……..all "foreign" guns.
In many cases they're made here either partially or wholly, though. A good portion of the money is going back into the US economy. The M27 is made (partially) by Americans, in an American factory of the US subsidiary of HK.
Maybe that's why they're so expensive. HK had to build a plant here for a single sourced rifle. IIRC FN porotested and HK cut the price in half. Probably didn't do much for HK's bottom line but at least FN (and congress) got the price down to about twice what an open sourced rifle would cost.
ralph
06-18-2019, 05:51 PM
Yeah, I think that Merkel just doesn't care about military spending.
I think that's exactly the case..Merkel cares more about the immigrants they took in, than her own people. If I had to guess, it would be that money that was supposed to go to military spending, got diverted to welfare programs for all of the immigrants...
Mjolnir
06-18-2019, 06:12 PM
Yeah, I think that Merkel just doesn't care about military spending.
Germany has not been ruled by Germans since the end of WW II.
They are still a captive nation so their leaders answer to London, Washington and, to a lesser degree, Paris.
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Germany has not been ruled by Germans since the end of WW II.
They are still a captive nation so their leaders answer to London, Washington and, to a lesser degree, Paris.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
39198
I need to start reading your sources of information. It's much more entertaining than reality.
Hey, Luger and P30, given we're apparently in charge of you, can you stop detaining me every time I fly through Frankfurt with my badge/radio/equipment on official business? kthxbyenow
HCountyGuy
06-18-2019, 08:15 PM
Only two grand for a MR556 upper, totally affordable
/sarcasm
https://us.hkwebshop.com/hkstorefront/hk/en/Rifle-Parts/Upper-Receiver-Parts/MR556-Upper-Receiver-Kit/p/81000077
Hey, Luger and P30, given we're apparently in charge of you, can you stop detaining me every time I fly through Frankfurt with my badge/radio/equipment on official business?
I'm just a software developer, who did not vote for Merkel. And I've bought a bunch of beautyful HK weapons and would even buy more, if the government would allow me so. I'm not guilty.
BTW:
This is the best shooting range I know near Frankfurt:
schiess-sportcentrum-heusenstamm.de (https://www.schiess-sportcentrum-heusenstamm.de/)
So when you're there next time and looking for a nice place to shoot, check this out.
Yeah, I think that Merkel just doesn't care about military spending.
100% this ^^^
Maybe that's why they're so expensive. HK had to build a plant here for a single sourced rifle. IIRC FN porotested and HK cut the price in half. Probably didn't do much for HK's bottom line but at least FN (and congress) got the price down to about twice what an open sourced rifle would cost.
No. Just no. HK built a plant here for the failed XM8 and some handgun contracts years befor the M27 was even a thing. The M27 is not the only HK rifle being sold to the U.S. Military, that’s are buying HK417/G28 variants for the new DMR and Compact Sniper / M110k program.
Borderland
06-19-2019, 08:32 AM
No. Just no. HK built a plant here for the failed XM8 and some handgun contracts years befor the M27 was even a thing. The M27 is not the only HK rifle being sold to the U.S. Military, that’s are buying HK417/G28 variants for the new DMR and Compact Sniper / M110k program.
However that works.
When HK goes out of business I guess the US taxpayer will have to pay to rearm the USMC.
I'm still trying to figure out why the USMC needs a piston rifle and if they do, why a US company can't build it.
FreedomFries
06-19-2019, 10:41 AM
Why don't they just make a flush fit P30/VP9 magazine that holds 17 rounds? I'd probably buy at least 6. I'd even promise not to bitch if the springs needed replacement occasionally. I'm sure most of you would to. Then they wouldn't have to risk going out of business.
HCountyGuy
06-19-2019, 11:34 AM
Why don't they just make a flush fit P30/VP9 magazine that holds 17 rounds? I'd probably buy at least 6. I'd even promise not to bitch if the springs needed replacement occasionally. I'm sure most of you would to. Then they wouldn't have to risk going out of business.
IIRC this came up before (17-rd flush-fit mags) and I believe the consensus was greater reliability in the 15-rd.
FreedomFries
06-19-2019, 11:54 AM
IIRC this came up before (17-rd flush-fit mags) and I believe the consensus was greater reliability in the 15-rd.
Sure, I get that there would probably be less spring fatigue and a longer follower is less likely to tilt, so the 15 round capacity in a long magazine body is very reliable. However pretty much every other company with that approximate length and width of magazine can get about 17 rounds. I don't hear that many complaints about 17 round magazines for Glocks, M&P, Beretta, etc. 15 vs 17 isn't a huge deal to me, but if they engineered a reasonably reliable 17 round magazine, they'd easily sell them to pretty much every HK pistol owner living in states without capacity restriction.
Guinnessman
06-19-2019, 12:11 PM
As much as I would love 17 round magazines for my P30/VP9’s, the 15 rounders are bombproof.
Here is Todd G’s experience with his P30 Mags during that test: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?10449-P30-Magazine-question-for-Todd
As a die hard HK owner and shooter, I am hedging my relationship with HK. At some point this summer I plan on acquiring some Gen 5 Glocks.
However that works.
When HK goes out of business I guess the US taxpayer will have to pay to rearm the USMC.
I'm still trying to figure out why the USMC needs a piston rifle and if they do, why a US company can't build it.
No.
When the US adopts a weapon they are not just paying for the guns, they are also paying for the Technical Data Package (TDP) which is all the data, specs etc to make the weapon. If necessary US can use the TDP to have other manufacturers make parts or complete rifles. How do you think the U.S. military wound up with hundreds of thousands of FN M16A3, M16A4 and M4 Rifles ?
Don’t Believe the hype. HK, like Colt has been going out of business forever. The corporate raiders always bleed it just enough without killing it.
Rah, rah rah US rifle is cool until it’s you, or your loved ones getting shot at, then it’s, yeah get the best damn thing available.
Personally I’m fine with standard, modernized DI Guns but if the USMC wants M27s, they are chump change in DOD budget terms. Hell they are chump change compared to what it costs to recruit, train equip an maintain an enlisted marine.
Default.mp3
06-19-2019, 12:29 PM
However that works.
When HK goes out of business I guess the US taxpayer will have to pay to rearm the USMC.
I'm still trying to figure out why the USMC needs a piston rifle and if they do, why a US company can't build it.Or H&K just turns over the TDP, and the USMC just finds an American manufacturer or whomever to continue building it. The M320A1 is currently manufactured by Capco, based out of CO, and there have been solicitations for American manufacturing of the M110A1.
fatdog
06-19-2019, 12:53 PM
HK could take a trip into a chapter 11 type re-org bankruptcy and the product lines are certainly valuable enough to survive in a re-organized company, perhaps with yet another change in ownership. I've lost count of how many of those ownership structure changes at HK have transpired since the end of the cold war.
They never have reached their true sales potential because of head up the ass management when it comes to their past sales policies and philosophy, especially in the U.S. market, and the attitudes of their home country government have been quite harmful for global LE/Mil sales.
Being an armorer type, I rarely send a gun back to the factory unless it is something I know I cannot or should not repair or change myself. I am buying HK spare parts for normal repairs, not to have a lifetime supply if they go broke in this cycle.
However that works.
When HK goes out of business I guess the US taxpayer will have to pay to rearm the USMC.
I'm still trying to figure out why the USMC needs a piston rifle and if they do, why a US company can't build it.
Well, on the piston part, it's no secret that a good piston gun has several advantages over DI when you're looking at suppressing, as well as using FA. The M27 was purposed to be used FA, and suppressors are now a general issue item in the USMC rifle squad. The M27 has a significant advantage over a DI system for this use.
As for "why a US company can't build it," that's already been addressed. It is partially US built, to begin with. Opening up the solicitation to the American community instead of being a single source rifle would have been more expensive to the American taxpayer in the longrun.
Sometimes the simplest answer is the right answer.
Well, on the piston part, it's no secret that a good piston gun has several advantages over DI when you're looking at suppressing, as well as using FA. The M27 was purposed to be used FA, and suppressors are now a general issue item in the USMC rifle squad. The M27 has a significant advantage over a DI system for this use.
As for "why a US company can't build it," that's already been addressed. It is partially US built, to begin with. Opening up the solicitation to the American community instead of being a single source rifle would have been more expensive to the American taxpayer in the longrun.
Sometimes the simplest answer is the right answer.
What suppressor did the USMC wind up going with ?
What suppressor did the USMC wind up going with ?
I don't know if they decided on an enterprise-wide solution yet. I think the last thing I read about a rifle company deployed was with KACs(?), don't quote me.
I think they've got some projects going on for an integrally suppressed 14-16" URG going on as part of the Sea Dragon project.
@rbusmc24 for further.
Borderland
06-19-2019, 10:08 PM
Well, on the piston part, it's no secret that a good piston gun has several advantages over DI when you're looking at suppressing, as well as using FA. The M27 was purposed to be used FA, and suppressors are now a general issue item in the USMC rifle squad. The M27 has a significant advantage over a DI system for this use.
As for "why a US company can't build it," that's already been addressed. It is partially US built, to begin with. Opening up the solicitation to the American community instead of being a single source rifle would have been more expensive to the American taxpayer in the longrun.
Sometimes the simplest answer is the right answer.
I see your point. The M27 has to be better than the Colt 1911's the Marines had to have.:o
I'm clearly out of my lane here so I'll just give it a rest. I'll feel better tomorrow.
I see your point. The M27 has to be better than the Colt 1911's the Marines had to have.:o
I'm clearly out of my lane here so I'll just give it a rest. I'll feel better tomorrow.
The Marines are not all retro - they were also the only service to take Beretta up on substituting the M9A1 for the M9 on the existing contract.
OlongJohnson
06-29-2019, 09:51 AM
Worth reading the whole letter from H&K. Bullet points quoted below.
https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2019/06/27/916456/
Heckler & Koch Respond to Concerns About Quarterly Financial Report
From 2014 to the end of 2018, HK’s debt was reduced from 290 million Euros to 235 million and the interest rate on that debt was reduced substantially.
Over the course of 2018 and thus far in 2019, HK reported positive EBITDA in every quarter.
Over that same period, HK’s cash position doubled.
Claims of “diminishing sales” and “difficulty securing new large-scale contracts” are patently false. In fact, the last six quarters for HK have shown record order-intake, including a substantial backlog of large-scale contracts.
HK invested a combined 8.3 million Euros toward increased capacity and efficiency in both the Obendorf, Germany and Columbus, GA facilities in 2018.
The full financial report and other key data can be found at https://www.heckler-koch.com/en/ir/annual-accounts.html and https://www.heckler-koch.com/en/ir/key-figures.html.
JSGlock34
06-29-2019, 11:48 AM
I don't know if they decided on an enterprise-wide solution yet. I think the last thing I read about a rifle company deployed was with KACs(?), don't quote me.
The Marines are not all retro - they were also the only service to take Beretta up on substituting the M9A1 for the M9 on the existing contract.
I think in recent years the Marines have been better about taking some cues from SOCOM. The fielding of Mk318 SOST ammunition was an early example. The 'uber squad (https://www.military.com/daily-news/2017/06/13/marine-uber-squad-will-get-suppressors-m27s-socom-gear.html)' experiment with M27s and suppressors followed by the wider fielding of KAC cans (https://taskandpurpose.com/suppressors-marine-unit-weapons) are others. The short lived procurement of GEN5 Glock 19s (the M007) followed by the decision to adopt the smaller M18 also reflects some SOCOM influences about the modern role of the military sidearm. I'm not entirely a fan of the broader M27 fielding, but I think the USMC is on a good trajectory with their small arms procurement.
GardoneVT
06-29-2019, 12:52 PM
Worth reading the whole letter from H&K. Bullet points quoted below.
https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2019/06/27/916456/
Heckler & Koch Respond to Concerns About Quarterly Financial Report
I wouldn’t start celebrating. According to HKs financial statements report, inventories are up 16% plus Loans and Borrowings are up 26.5% . Yes gross revenue increased 21.4%; but HKs costs of sales also increased 48% between 2017 and 2018.
When expenses outpace income, that’s a problem . Who cares how much income grew if you send that money out the door plus extra.
TexasSiegfried
06-29-2019, 01:49 PM
In addition, growing cash reserves can be a plus or minus...
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Tamara
06-29-2019, 02:53 PM
They never have reached their true sales potential because of head up the ass management when it comes to their past sales policies and philosophy, especially in the U.S. market...
It doesn't help that the U.S. market declared pretty much their entire product line un-importable at the stroke of GHW Bush's pen in 1989.
Get bitten like that, you're gonna be gun-shy.
fatdog
06-29-2019, 03:01 PM
It doesn't help that the U.S. market declared pretty much their entire product line un-importable at the stroke of GHW Bush's pen in 1989.
Right, and if you want to sell your product in the largest market, domestic U.S. you get your head out of your ass and figure out a U.S. based assembly or manufacturing strategy like some others did, or you just give up on the biggest potential market because you "don't want to sell these guns to rednecks" as one HK exec told their U.S. based sales management a decade ago.
MrInox
06-29-2019, 03:17 PM
Right, and if you want to sell your product in the largest market, domestic U.S. you get your head out of your ass and figure out a U.S. based assembly or manufacturing strategy like some others did, or you just give up on the biggest potential market because you "don't want to sell these guns to rednecks" as one HK exec told their U.S. based sales management a decade ago.
They have manufacturing plants in georgia and somewhere in new england (vermont i think).
They have manufacturing plants in georgia and somewhere in new england (vermont i think).
They have a facility in Columbus GA just outside Ft Benning.
The other place you are thinking of is Wilcox Industries in NH, a well known military contractor who HK has contracted with on projects like US production of the HK45 series.
http://www.wilcoxind.com/Small-Arms-Systems-Support-C9.aspx
MrInox
06-29-2019, 04:35 PM
They have a facility in Columbus GA just outside Ft Benning.
The other place you are thinking of is Wilcox Industries in NH, a well known military contractor who HK has contracted with on projects like US production of the HK45 series.
http://www.wilcoxind.com/Small-Arms-Systems-Support-C9.aspx
Yea, wilcox was supposedly involved in stateside production of caracal pistols...no idea what the hell happened to that
Yea, wilcox was supposedly involved in stateside production of caracal pistols...no idea what the hell happened to that
What's your point?
Yea, wilcox was supposedly involved in stateside production of caracal pistols...no idea what the hell happened to that
Wilcox was just a sub contractor for both HK and Caracal. Don’t really see the relevance.
fatdog
06-29-2019, 06:45 PM
They have a facility in Columbus GA just outside Ft Benning.
Which they waited 20 years after the import ban Tam cited to build and open, and longer than that until they started to sell products to U.S. civilians that were actually made there that were exempt from import bans.
Sigfan26
06-29-2019, 07:19 PM
Which they waited 20 years after the import ban Tam cited to build and open, and longer than that until they started to sell products to U.S. civilians that were actually made there that were exempt from import bans.
The 89 import ban was followed by the 94 AWB. If they had built the plant to produce stateside, it actually could have hurt them.
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fatdog
06-29-2019, 07:35 PM
the 94 AWB. If they had built the plant to produce stateside, it actually could have hurt them.
I thought Colt sold MORE civilian AR-15's after the ban than they did before....
Sigfan26
06-29-2019, 07:38 PM
I thought Colt sold MORE civilian AR-15's after the ban than they did before....
Possible. They also had a manufacturing facility in the in the US already. It’s a bit different building a manufacturing facility vs already having one.
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entropy
06-29-2019, 08:12 PM
Oops. Double 12% Stout post...
Which they waited 20 years after the import ban Tam cited to build and open, and longer than that until they started to sell products to U.S. civilians that were actually made there that were exempt from import bans.
They only opened it in anticipation if the XM-8 rifle contract - and the current rifle production there is only happening because HK got the M110A1 contract. Big picture they don’t give a shit about making things for civilians.
BTW - German companies are subject to Germany’s version of ITAR which includes intellectual property and includes transferring that knowledge to their own foreign subsidiaries. Producing HK stuff in the US is not just as simple as emailing a CAD file and just making it.
Not to mention maintaining quality when moving or establishing a new factory. I’ve seen more defective Beretta 92/96 series guns out of their new plant in TN than in 30 years of Beretta shooting, including several with an agency which issued Berettas.
Tamara
06-29-2019, 08:23 PM
I thought Colt sold MORE civilian AR-15's after the ban than they did before....
Colt wasn't still stinging from the '89 ban...but I'm not sure they're the brand name to bring up in a thread about hilarious corporate mismanagement, disdain for the civilian marketplace, or being on the brink of death. :D
Joe in PNG
06-29-2019, 08:34 PM
Likewise, one should remember that following the 94 ban, it was pretty much clear to everyone that yet more and more restrictions would follow. Setting up a US based factory for a market that would be soon banned away would be kind of risky.
OlongJohnson
06-29-2019, 08:56 PM
Not to mention maintaining quality when moving or establishing a new factory. I’ve seen more defective Beretta 92/96 series guns out of their new plant in TN than in 30 years of Beretta shooting, including several with an agency which issued Berettas.
Agreed, I've seen some pretty poor stuff coming out of that plant.
Building stuff well is a lot more difficult than people who don't do it all day think it is.
farscott
06-30-2019, 05:52 AM
Agreed, I've seen some pretty poor stuff coming out of that plant.
Building stuff well is a lot more difficult than people who don't do it all day think it is.
Agreed. Bringing up a new manufacturing facility is long, hard work. And Beretta should get credit for the reason the plant in Maryland was closed and the plant in Tennessee was opened. That was a huge investment in doing the right thing.
Joe in PNG
06-30-2019, 06:21 AM
It's funny. Back in the 90's, most of the major American companies (Colt, S&W, Ruger) were also moving towards the whole "The Civilian Market Sucks, and We Hate Them" direction.
Which makes sense. If a government is showing that it's going to regulate and ban most civilian ownership of firearms, why invest a lot of money into a plant to make civilian firearms? The gun business is a business, and wants to survive. If that means kissing up to the government to (hopefully) get contracts, so be it.
Don't forget that in 1994, Gun Culture 2.0 hadn't really begun. Shall Issue concealed Carry was just getting off the ground, and Fudds outnumbered the Timmies. The idea that the 94 Ban would be allowed to sunset, and that AR's would become the long gun of choice (with good standard cap mags being only $14 or so!) within a decade would seem hopelessly optimistic.
But, outdated memes are like any other outdated info to the gun world.
entropy
06-30-2019, 07:38 AM
My stout-fueled, awkward memes and attempted humor aside, I still don’t se them going anywhere anytime soon. They have always occupied a rather curious, upper end, civilian niche market heavily supplemented by government contracts. They will most likely continue to occupy that same position moving forward whether or not any restructuring or other internal adjustments play out. I view them more in the vein of a defense contractor rather than any type of civilian arms manufacturer. Or, perhaps akin to Land Rover in the automobile industry. They are a different breed. You see things like this in the aerospace industry as well. They are cyclic and one way or another, work themselves out over time either by reorganization, merger, or acquisition. I’m not stockpiling parts for any of their stuff that sits in my safe.
falar
06-30-2019, 11:57 AM
My interest level in any US made HK would be zero.
My interest level in any US made HK would be zero.
The US made HK 45 series guns have been excellent. I’d be interested in a US made MR 762 if it brings the price down.
https://youtu.be/rYco0UsWhLc
Tom Duffy
06-30-2019, 03:48 PM
I’m not stockpiling parts for any of their stuff that sits in my safe.
I felt it prudent to get some recoil springs and trigger return springs for my 2 HKs. Not that I think that they're going bankrupt, but being HK, parts availability could always become erratic.
entropy
06-30-2019, 04:53 PM
I felt it prudent to get some recoil springs and trigger return springs for my 2 HKs. Not that I think that they're going bankrupt, but being HK, parts availability could always become erratic.
True. I called them a few weeks back and ordered a LEM Kit. Kind lady said “end of July”.
Then again, Moscow was going to take a “few months”. (More poor attempt at humor...)
WestTex
07-01-2019, 02:37 AM
The dummies nixed sales to Israel because the company objected to Israel's stance on the Palestinian Question.
I bet that they regret that decision now.
Exactly.
And, not unlike Colt, they reached a point where they thought theirs didn’t stink.
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