Worst training advice ever

[BillSWPA]

Today I was at a local gun store completing a purchase, and talking to the guy behind the counter. We discussed the current financial misdeeds at the NRA, his experiences at Camp Perry, etc., when he discussed an acquaintance taking a class on clearing houses.

His advice to that acquaintance: "never take a class like that. Taking that class will get you crucified by a jury."

I pointed out how easy it was to defeat an attempt to make someone look bad for having taken such a class. If I have a possibility of my kids getting injured, I am reasonable in taking a first aid class, right? If I anticipate having to drive in difficult conditions, I am reasonable in taking a driving class, right? So if there is a possibility or probability of having to defend my family, learning the proper way to do it is reasonable.

Despite his having just completed my instant background check and knowing I am an attorney, he continued to insist that I did not know what I was talking about. He insisted his advice reflected the difference between being in a rural area and a city.

Making matters even worse, SouthNarc's Armed Movement In Structures class, among others, is sometimes hosted in the Pittsburgh area, so there is a possibility that this is the class that this idiot is discouraging people from taking.

I am flabbergasted that with so much good information so readily available, such stupid ideas persist.

[Joe in PNG]

Sadly, I'd be far, far more surprised to hear good training/ tactical advice at a gun shop.

[Kyle Reese]

I'd find another gun shop. Life is too short to deal with derp.

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[Randy Harris]

Gun stores are well known for selling GUNS...not for dispensing sound training or legal advice.

[Duelist]

Couple of guys at the office were preaching guns at a female co-worker yesterday. Both are former Army, one actually retired. "Get a shotgun for home defense, then you don't have to aim. Load birdshot in the barrel, then it won't go through the walls. Put slugs in after, it's still safer than a rifle or pistol."

She told them, "Oh, Duelist is going to take me to the range later this summer to teach me some things."

I LOL'd. We talked about it this morning, and both shook our heads about not aiming a gun - any gun. She is a young-ish grandmother, who served in the Army for a couple of years when she was 18. Never has yet fired a handgun.

[BillSWPA]

I'd find another gun shop. Life is too short to deal with derp.

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This guy was filling in for the owner, who is much more knowledgeable and is 100% worthy of my business.

I do want to buy from them when possible because one never knows when the big box stores will decide that they can improve their public image by not selling modern sporting rifles or standard capacity magazines.

Otherwise I would agree.



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[Totem Polar]

Just gotta find the humor in some of these interactions, IMHO.

[Darth_Uno]

I'd find another gun shop. Life is too short to deal with derp.

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Gun shops have their use. Someone needs to sell guns. That's also the extent of their usefulness. I'd like to say "support your local gun shop", but if I could buy them on Amazon the LGS would probably never see me again. But I don't roll up with, "I need a gun for concealed carry", I always know ahead of time exactly what I want (although I'm a very poor judge of what I need).

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I pointed out how easy it was to defeat an attempt to make someone look bad for having taken such a class.

Tell me how you do that so easily given the vagaries of juror characteristics. Please reference the well known cases where training as been brought up as a negative vs. the analyses by some well known defense attorneys who think it could be a positive. Expert witness may be needed and are expensive. $1000 to $10000 a day have been cited.

The Larry Hickey case was not easy: https://armedcitizensnetwork.org/images/stories/Hickey_Booklet.pdf

Lisa Steele said:


Ideally, the client will also have some formal training in the use of deadly force which will allow the client’s teacher to testify about the client’s training in order to show that the client’s actions were subjectively reasonable. If the client has not had any formal training, counsel may still seek an expert to testify about use of force issues. However, the attorney may encounter difficulty showing that the expert’s opinion is relevant if it was not the basis for the client’s subjective decision. The attorney could offer expert testimony to show that the client’s actions were objectively reasonable.


My point - it is not a risk to be taken easily and your attorney better be ready to be quite knowledgeable on the risk and how to combat it.

While you are an attorney, the jury research is suggests it is not easy.

My conclusion: Telling someone not to take a class is stupid. However, saying it is easy is not realistic. It's more nuanced but the clerk is an idiot, I agree.

[wvincent]

Whelp, that advise was worth exactly what you paid for it.

[Stephanie B]

The amount of derp seen in gun shops could fill volumes.

[Tamara]

Gun shops have their use. Someone needs to sell guns. That's also the extent of their usefulness. I'd like to say "support your local gun shop", but if I could buy them on Amazon the LGS would probably never see me again. But I don't roll up with, "I need a gun for concealed carry", I always know ahead of time exactly what I want (although I'm a very poor judge of what I need).

Oddly, practically every single customer considers themselves this well-informed. ;)

[Tamara]

The amount of derp seen in gun shops could fill volumes.

Well, I mean, they're full of people, so... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[farscott]

Oddly, practically every single customer considers themselves this well-informed. ;)


Gun shops have their use. Someone needs to sell guns. That's also the extent of their usefulness. I'd like to say "support your local gun shop", but if I could buy them on Amazon the LGS would probably never see me again. But I don't roll up with, "I need a gun for concealed carry", I always know ahead of time exactly what I want (although I'm a very poor judge of what I need).

I know that I no longer need any new firearms; I have enough for any conceivable practical (and some impractical) use with very few exceptions, say long-distance anti-materiel rifles. That does not mean I do not want more, because I do. New stuff is interesting. :)

I buy a fair amount from a LGS for a couple of reasons. First, my family is friends with the owner's family and we have been known to get behind the counter when help is required. Second, it is good to support a LGS so that we continue to have a LGS. Third, one can meet interesting people in the store. Our rural area tends to have some rather serious deer and small-game hunters, and the precision rifle discipline is popular. I have learned a ton from the locals in that discipline, some of which has translated to my rimfire shooting. In certain areas, e.g., the Gadget SCD, I may be more well-informed that the locals. Fourth, no one escorts me out of the store after I buy a firearm, unlike Wal-Mart and Academy. I leave feeling good, not feeling like I need to hide my purchase in a plain brown paper bag.

[GardoneVT]

When I want advice on how to drive my sports car, I don’t call the local dealer.

[BillSWPA]

Tell me how you do that so easily given the vagaries of juror characteristics. Please reference the well known cases where training as been brought up as a negative vs. the analyses by some well known defense attorneys who think it could be a positive. Expert witness may be needed and are expensive. $1000 to $10000 a day have been cited.

The Larry Hickey case was not easy: https://armedcitizensnetwork.org/images/stories/Hickey_Booklet.pdf

Lisa Steele said:



My point - it is not a risk to be taken easily and your attorney better be ready to be quite knowledgeable on the risk and how to combat it.

While you are an attorney, the jury research is suggests it is not easy.

My conclusion: Telling someone not to take a class is stupid. However, saying it is easy is not realistic. It's more nuanced but the clerk is an idiot, I agree.

The need to be able to understand and effectively argue about the training as it applies to a given case is a valid point.

Your link provides a perfect example of a prosecutor attempting to make someone look bad for having attended training, and how it backfired. As the excerpt points out, one would not want their doctor to have less training. The law recognizes the value of training, for example, good Samaritan laws that often protect someone up to their level of certification, but not when they do something outside their level of certification.

This will play out differently in different cases. In George Zimmerman's case, for example, I understand that having poor training actually helped. If i understand correctly, his defense attorney pointed out the deficiencies in Zimmerman's MMA training as part of the argument that the larger Treyvon Martin presented a threat to Zimmerman that could not be addressed except by deadly force. I would never advocate choosing poor training over good training, but his attorney tailored the arguments to the situation he had to defend, and did it well.

One never knows what a third party fact finder will do, but my money is always on them being most likely to be persuaded by the most reasonable position. ANY decision we make can be twisted to make us look bad. The keys are acting reasonably, being prepared to explain and demonstrate why we acted reasonably, and be prepared to debunk the likely false accusations.

[Hambo]

I am flabbergasted that with so much good information so readily available, such stupid ideas persist.

The only difference between the ignorance of the Dark Ages and today is that we can spread stupid faster via the web.

[UniSol]

Oddly, practically every single customer considers themselves this well-informed. ;)

I just spent 8 months behind the counter at a high volume dealer in North Alabama, this is true.

[Radar Love]

I just spent 8 months behind the counter at a high volume dealer in North Alabama, this is true.

I had the same experience in New England. People gave unsolicited legal advice all of the time, boggled my mind. It was a very informative experience trying to explain to an out of state customer that he couldn't buy a handgun and he couldn't hand it to his buddy standing next to him to buy it for him. Customer then produced a badge from the state police of a nearby state and threatened to call his "good friend ATF Special Agent so-and-so" to confirm the sale was legal... thankfully everyone behind the counter that day was former military/retired LEO and wasn't about to put up with him, though I do wish my manager had called the dude's bluff and actually called the local ATF field office because that would have been hilarious.

[HCM]

I had the same experience in New England. People gave unsolicited legal advice all of the time, boggled my mind. It was a very informative experience trying to explain to an out of state customer that he couldn't buy a handgun and he couldn't hand it to his buddy standing next to him to buy it for him. Customer then produced a badge from the state police of a nearby state and threatened to call his "good friend ATF Special Agent so-and-so" to confirm the sale was legal... thankfully everyone behind the counter that day was former military/retired LEO and wasn't about to put up with him, though I do wish my manager had called the dude's bluff and actually called the local ATF field office because that would have been hilarious.

Call ATF and then call his agency’s internal affairs and let them know he is attempting to commit a felony.

My LGS had a military member from out of state get very nasty / threatening when they would not sell him a handgun because he was on TDY order not PCS orders. ATF and OSI both found it quite interesting.

[farscott]

I just spent 8 months behind the counter at a high volume dealer in North Alabama, this is true.

Which Larry's location? Madison or North Parkway?

[UniSol]

Which Larry's location? Madison or North Parkway?

Parkway.

I heard things I personally considered less than accurate on the employee side from time to time, but by and large the advice , when solicited, was sound. Management was also quick to hem up an employee if they thought someone was out of their lane or being rude. That's just one place though and just my experience there for a short time. I did feel like the 2 main gun guy customer types I encountered were the well meaning Bubba or the know it all gun neophyte that probably spent a lot of time on Arfcom and was convinced that they were going to snipe the gun counter guy and expose you as an ill informed, you know, gun counter guy.

[Totem Polar]

Y’know, my opinion is that the information age has even trickled into the mom n pop gun stores. I have not just 1, but 3 places local to me where I could take a new shooter, and trust that the guys (and 1 or 2 gals) behind the counter would give them rock solid advice and options. Even the 4th place I poke my head in to regularly isn't bad, but 2 of the places had ECQC alum behind the counters, and 2 had multiple Marines with combat experience. One place had a dude who was both (suffice to say, I’m still friends with that guy, even though he’s moved on from the industry)

Anyhoo, it’s different environment than when I was young, for sure.

The customers can be a different story, but I have the luxury of assuming that they’re all paid to do something else.

[Darth_Uno]

Y’know, my opinion is that the information age has even trickled into the mom n pop gun stores.

Or as my dad recently said regarding our business, “I’m convinced more and more people are using the internet.”

Yes Dad. Yes they are.

I’ve been working in construction full time since I was 15. So who are you going to believe, me or some random guy on the internet with zero credentials? The random guy obviously, he said you’re right and I’m wrong.


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[Maple Syrup Actual]

The amount of derp seen in gun shops SHOULD fill volumes.

If you and Tam collaborated on this and covered both sides of the counter I would buy ten copies on the spot

[Stephanie B]

If you and Tam collaborated on this and covered both sides of the counter I would buy ten copies on the spot
Those behind the counter have seen at least a couple of magnitudes more derp.