But it looks cool...

[KevH]

I'm going to take some flak for this post, but here goes...

BACKGROUND

In the late 1990’s, when I started down the whole police rabbit hole and dinosaurs roamed the earth, the traditional double action auto pistol ruled the world. Most departments issued some flavor of Beretta, S&W 3rd Gen, Sig Sauer, H&K USP or Glock. Most departments, around here at least, had transitioned to 40 S&W, although there were a few holdouts that stuck with 9mm usually because they had no money to “upgrade.” There were still a few guys close to retirement carrying S&W wheelguns and the truly high speed guys, like a select few departments and some SWAT dudes, carried some flavor of customized 1911…I say customized because Kimber hadn’t really busted on scene and turned that particular market upside down. Outside of the 1911’s though, the universal truth to almost all the other aforementioned guns is that they were all completely stock.

If you had an opened-minded department they may have allowed you to do something crazy like change the factory grips out for a set of Hogues…and maybe…just maybe…you could throw on a set of Trijicon night sights. Super progressive places may let you send a Glock frame out to Robar to have them cut off the backstrap and slap on some of their proprietary goop to give it a “better” grip (I did and regretted it almost immediately upon receiving the gun back).

https://i.imgur.com/ENyFzFPl.png

The nice thing about all these guns is that they almost all worked and straight out of the box. There also was very little if any variation. A Glock 17 either came with night sights or it did not. Same with Beretta except for when INOX was a choice. With a SIG P226 or P229 you got to pick the caliber, the finish (Nitron or two-tone), DA/SA or DAO and whether or not it came with night sights. The nice thing was the quality control on all these guns was extremely good. You could literally take thirty SIGs completely apart dump them in a barrel and rebuild thirty guns with all the parts mixed and matched.

During the early 2000’s there started to be some variation. Beretta and LTT came out with the uber cool Elite and the Vertec. SIG had some special editions followed by the SRT and DAK triggers and then some folks like Ghost started to come out with different connectors for Glock. New finishes like Black-T and NP3 (fairly proprietary and applied by only their respective vendors) had been around since the 1990’s done by a select few, but by the late 2000’s everyone and their cousin was applying Cerakote or some spray and bake in a commercial store front or in their garage.

https://i.imgur.com/cy7OwCWl.jpg

I had spent (wasted) lots of money on custom 1911’s already, but the aforementioned guns really didn’t need anything custom. They were what they were….and furthermore they were good to go right out of the box.

Late 2000’s I remember going to a pistol class taught by Kyle Lamb and Mike Pannone and before the decade was over a Blackwater USA class taught by the man himself Bill Go. What all three instructors had in common is that they were shooting stock Glocks as were most of the attendees with a few classic SIGs and 1911’s sprinkled in.

The point is that up until about 2010 or so most of guns used for social purposes, especially for police duty carry, were pretty darn stock.

Then the wheels fell off…

https://i.imgur.com/V1QWe1Cl.jpg


INDUSTRY CHANGE AND SOCIAL MEDIA

I’m really going to give the credit to Youtube here with a dash of Instagram and to guys like Costa.

I’ll also give credit to the folks that cheapened SigArms and the whole Glock Gen4 debacle.

I would also be remiss though from giving credit to cheap CNC machines and 3D printers that any jackwagon can buy and the ability to sell whatever you want on the internet.

What we have seen in the past few years is an EXPLOSION of aftermarket parts and accessories…especially for Glocks and other polymer guns.

I had played with “custom” Glocks for a long time, but for the most part “custom” meant changing the sights, the connector, maybe the barrel, and doing a stipple job….oh and of course…putting in ridiculously heavy guide rod.

In the early 2010’s when Magpul was the shiz, I got talked by some co-workers into going to a class taught by Chris Costa. It was a complete waste of time and money (he spent about half the class posing for pictures), but I got to shoot a Glock 19 done up for him by a company called Salient. I was shocked by the insanely light trigger pull and the lightening cuts in the slide. I was flabbergasted by price as well, but was not shocked at all when it had some failures to feed. I asked him about the gun and he told me he was carrying it. It boggled my mind that someone, especially someone providing training to others on defensive pistolcraft would think that a trigger that light would be a good idea. His response was something along the lines of, “Dude, but it looks cool!” I shouldn’t have been surprised…

Since that time I have seen so many aftermarket Glock slides and frames copying that “look” that it is mind boggling. SOOOOOOO many Youtube videos and Instagram posts. SOOOOO many tattooed dude-bro’s talking about “mods.” SOOOOOO much wasted money…

What I did not expect to see, but should have seen coming, was these parts finding their way into law enforcement…

THE CRESCENDO

Around 2009 or so we had an otherwise very competent guy and accomplished shooter at my department stick a Ghost connector on his otherwise stock Glock 35. He also put a Surefire X200 on it the same day. He took it to the range, put a few hundred rounds through it and began carrying it. No one really saw a problem with it. A few weeks later on a prowler call he came across said prowler lurking in a bush….and promptly put a round of 40 S&W into the ground a few feet from him. The combo of the manipulating the light with his trigger finger and a super light trigger nearly lead to disaster. He immediately put the gun back to stock. Lesson learned…for him and for us as a department regarding WML’s and training.

Flash-forward a few years and there are two guys carrying Salient Glocks and a guy with an Agency Arms Glock. I’m not a fan, but they’re carried by competent guys and the guns seem to work for them. Want to waste $2k on a $500 pistol that’s your choice.

What happened last week though is going to cause a change.

A guy working overtime shows up in uniform, on duty, and shoots a qual for the heck of it. His gun is a stippled factory Glock 17 Gen5 frame with an aftermarket slide (looked like moths had gotten hold of it), aftermarket barrel (fluted of course), aftermarket guide rod, aftermarket trigger, aftermarket connector, aftermarket magwell, with aftermarket magazines. Sweet.

He literally could not make it for more than ten rounds without some type of malfunction.

Now if this was a “play-gun” I could care less, but this was the gun he was carrying at work that night. The best part was that during his attempt to shoot the qual the RMR plate fell off the slide when the screw sheared (who cares right?). Unfortunately it made the gun stick in the Safariland ALS holster.

Needless to say he was told he could not go back on the street with that gun. He spent the weekend finding all the factory parts he had taken off so that another armorer could put his gun back together.

As a department we are planning to do an “armorer inspection” this fall (something we always used to do until a certain supervisor didn’t think it was necessary anymore).

The guy with the super-modified-but-did-not-work-sorta-Glock is a young guy working nights that fancies himself a gun guy. He watched too many stupid Youtube videos and social media posts and drank the Kool-Aid. Unfortunately, it very easily could have cost him or someone working with him their lives if he had tried to rely on it in a lethal encounter.

SO WHAT’S YOUR POINT?

I am not against well thought out modifications to a defensive gun if they serve a purpose.

I am totally against any modification that detracts from reliability and safety.

Shooters, especially new shooters, are overwhelmed by the amount of aftermarket garbage being pushed on them these days. It is available and if a coolguy on the internet says it makes my thing better it must be good right?

What I told our hapless young man with his broken roscoe that night was this:
“A billion dollar company with a fleet of engineers in Austria came up with this thing that passed government testing and various safety tests and that same company stakes their liability on their product designed the parts you took off this gun and designed them to work in concert with one another. A dude with a CNC machine in his garage probably made most of the parts you stuck on it. Which parts do you want to trust your life on?”

Every now and then someone may come up with a better mousetrap. I think Randy Lee with his Apex M&P trigger components is a good example. But these examples are few and far between.

Changing the sights on a Glock to something more robust and useable is accepted common sense. I installed a Wilson barrel in my Glock 17 almost ten years ago because I wanted to shoot lead reloads safely and wanted the little bit of extra accuracy it provided at distance, but I tested the living crap out of it before I ever relied upon it to live in my duty holster.

If you are going to modify a gun, make sure the modification has an expressed purpose and that you properly vet its reliability before trusting it with your life. Don’t just stick something on your gun because it looks cool…

[blues]

Well, maybe you're gonna take some flak, but from me it's only because:


In the late 1990’s, when I started down the whole police rabbit hole and dinosaurs roamed the earth

I'm sorry, dinosaurs were already pretty much extinct by then. ;)

BTW, this particular dinosaur didn't put night sights on his Glocks, (purchased in 1988 and 1995), until 2016 or 2017. In fact, I may have had the Gadget first. (Is it any wonder they went extinct? :p)

Good post.

[HCountyGuy]

I’m kinda surprised an agency would approve a heavily modified gun (to the point the only thing stock seems to be the serial number) for duty use. That would seem like a liability issue from multiple angles.

There’s a lot of folks plunking down serious coin to pimp out their gun with every gizmo they can fit it with, yet they still can’t hit a barn from the inside with any consistency. Not only that, they don’t seriously test their mods for reliability. Civilian Carry Radio had an episode recently with the head trainer at Glock and they discussed people blinging out their guns needlessly, and typically reducing the reliability of it.

But people will do whatever, as usual.

[Polecat]

Great post. The more things change the more they stay the same! Lately, I have been changing to DA/SA guns thanks to all the PF wisdom and experience. Really is alot of crap out there. Safe, reliable trigger, good sights, good grip, that’s about it. Recall a discussion from an old school Atlanta PD guys who was in the thick of it in the 70’s, was in 17 gunfights came out a winner every time. He was advising a young lady purchasing her first gun. He steered her away from the light weight snub, and striker fired autos, explained the advantages of a 4” K frame. She walked a way a wiser young woman. Some of his stories would raise the hair on your neck.

[KevH]

I’m kinda surprised an agency would approve a heavily modified gun (to the point the only thing stock seems to be the serial number) for duty use. That would seem like a liability issue from multiple angles.


We have a very open policy, but it was written more with the 1911 in mind and long prior to these types of "modifications" being available. Like I said, some things are going to change...

[KevH]

Well, maybe you're gonna take some flak, but from me it's only because:



I'm sorry, dinosaurs were already pretty much extinct by then. ;)

BTW, this particular dinosaur didn't put night sights on his Glocks, (purchased in 1988 and 1995), until 2016 or 2017. In fact, I may have had the Gadget first. (Is it any wonder they went extinct? :p)

Good post.

I loved working with "dinosaurs." One of my mentors was a Vietnam vet that carried a 6" Model 19 in a Hoyt breakfront.

[TR675]

I like modifying Glocks. Better sights, NY1 trigger spring, minus connector, and...done. Gun work, gun good.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[AMC]

I loved working with "dinosaurs." One of my mentors was a Vietnam vet that carried a 6" Model 19 in a Hoyt breakfront.

I carried a S&W Model 28 Highway Patrolman in a Hoyt Breakfront when I came in....cause that's what I was issued. Loved that wheelgun, but hated the Hoyt.

[Gray01]

I carried a S&W Model 28 Highway Patrolman

in the 6 inch version...




when...dinosaurs roamed the earth

Hell kid, we used to tie them up to the hitchin post outside the bar after patrol.

[Gadfly]

When first hired, I wondered why our gun policy was so restrictive.... then I saw what idiots do to guns. Our policy is, Leave it stock. Only factory OEM parts and Factory finishes. Even then, there can be issues.

We issued 229 DAK, but approved personal purchase 229s in DA SA. So what starts to show up? Sig “special editions”.... yuck. No rainbow titanium, but some super polished blue and “Texas edition” stuff... “Hey, why is my gun rusting?” Uhhh, because you bought a decoration, not a real carry gun.

We do an annual inspection of every firearm. And every year we find strange stuff.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[KevH]

We do an annual inspection of every firearm. And every year we find strange stuff.


We did too until a certain person was put in charge of training (the position that coordinates it) and decided it was a waste of time and money. We (the firearms team) fought it, but we weren't going to win.

I can't tell you how many problems we averted (especially when Glock 22's were the rage). I caught broken strikers, broken roll pins on SIG slides, a broken frame rail in an "E" series Glock and countless little things that would have gone unnoticed until it was too late.

Thankfully I just talked to his replacement today and it sounds like we are going to start it back up this fall. I'm dreading what I'm going to find after a four year hiatus.

[ChaseN]

Interesting insight. I left the Secret Service in 2016 and we were still using TDA p229s in 357. You couldn't change d*ck except for like 4 authorized grips (stock, hogue with finger grooves, hogue without finger grooves, and some aluminum things). I never felt like the gun we were issued would make much difference, the person employing it is the key. I kept the stock grips on my gun.


He was advising a young lady purchasing her first gun. He steered her away from the light weight snub, and striker fired autos, explained the advantages of a 4” K frame. She walked a way a wiser young woman.

If my wife is being approached by would be thief/rapist/murderer(s) I'd rather a G17/P229/P30/M&P9/almostanythingwithmoreroundsandbettershootabilityt hanarevolver be in her hands

[blues]

If my wife is being approached by would be thief/rapist/murderer(s) I'd rather a G17/P229/P30/M&P9/almostanythingwithmoreroundsandbettershootabilityt hanarevolver be in her hands

Just the opposite here. The simplicity of the revolver, especially at close range in the home where she might have to employ a firearm, is the reason why her assigned firearm in the event of a break-in / home invasion is a revolver and not a semi-automatic.

Mileage will clearly vary on a case by case basis depending on ability, willingness to train, etc.


ETA: Sorry to sidetrack the discussion. Back to Semi-autos and fruitless / needless embellishment...

[ChaseN]

Just the opposite here. The simplicity of the revolver, especially at close range in the home where she might have to employ a firearm, is the reason why her assigned firearm in the event of a break-in / home invasion is a revolver and not a semi-automatic.

Mileage will clearly vary on a case by case basis depending on ability, willingness to train, etc.

The guns I listed are plenty simple to operate, and it's easy for anyone (but especially an inexperienced person) to pull a number of rounds off target in a stressful situation, particularly with a DA pull on every round like a revolver. Coupled with limited capacity, basically zero chance of reloading, the very real possibility of multiple assailants, and the often questionable efficacy of handgun rounds, well I guess you can imagine my conclusion on revolvers for the inexperienced.

[PD Sgt.]

I am issued an M&P, but in my job I can carry from a pretty decent list of choices (usually a G19 or a CZ). While I never went full Salient/Agency, I did dabble with some different connectors and barrels in my Glocks, along with a fair number of sights. Never had function issues, but never saw a big benefit either.

With the Gen 5 guns I can truly say I have not changed one part internally, and the only other change has been a grip plug and a lime ringed, narrower front sight (I do not pick up the red/orange very well). Particularly with Glocks I must say the more I have shot them, the less I change them or use non factory parts.

[HCM]

The guns I listed are plenty simple to operate, and it's easy for anyone (but especially an inexperienced person) to pull a number of rounds off target in a stressful situation, particularly with a DA pull on every round like a revolver. Coupled with limited capacity, basically zero chance of reloading, the very real possibility of multiple assailants, and the often questionable efficacy of handgun rounds, well I guess you can imagine my conclusion on revolvers for the inexperienced.

If you wife is a "gun person" and likes to shoot enough to understand the cycle of operation of a handgun - go for it. If she is a like a lot of people, and looks at a gun like the fire extinguisher in their kitchen or a spare tire in their car, then a revolver makes a whole lot of sense.

I have seen multiple ND's by LEO's in the past 20 plus years and the majority of them were caused by LEO's who did not understand the cycle of operation of their semi auto handgun. Same with most ND's in the military. NDs are a very real, and common "negative outcome."

For non "gun people" the admin handling advantages of a revolver outweigh its other limitations.

[OlongJohnson]

The only unreliable Glock I've seen was an aftermarket frankengun in 10mm. People kept referring to it as the "bear gun." I wondered why it still had a front sight.

[HCM]

I'm going to take some flak for this post, but here goes...

BACKGROUND

In the late 1990’s, when I started down the whole police rabbit hole and dinosaurs roamed the earth, the traditional double action auto pistol ruled the world. Most departments issued some flavor of Beretta, S&W 3rd Gen, Sig Sauer, H&K USP or Glock. Most departments, around here at least, had transitioned to 40 S&W, although there were a few holdouts that stuck with 9mm usually because they had no money to “upgrade.” There were still a few guys close to retirement carrying S&W wheelguns and the truly high speed guys, like a select few departments and some SWAT dudes, carried some flavor of customized 1911…I say customized because Kimber hadn’t really busted on scene and turned that particular market upside down. Outside of the 1911’s though, the universal truth to almost all the other aforementioned guns is that they were all completely stock.

If you had an opened-minded department they may have allowed you to do something crazy like change the factory grips out for a set of Hogues…and maybe…just maybe…you could throw on a set of Trijicon night sights. Super progressive places may let you send a Glock frame out to Robar to have them cut off the backstrap and slap on some of their proprietary goop to give it a “better” grip (I did and regretted it almost immediately upon receiving the gun back).

https://i.imgur.com/ENyFzFPl.png

The nice thing about all these guns is that they almost all worked and straight out of the box. There also was very little if any variation. A Glock 17 either came with night sights or it did not. Same with Beretta except for when INOX was a choice. With a SIG P226 or P229 you got to pick the caliber, the finish (Nitron or two-tone), DA/SA or DAO and whether or not it came with night sights. The nice thing was the quality control on all these guns was extremely good. You could literally take thirty SIGs completely apart dump them in a barrel and rebuild thirty guns with all the parts mixed and matched.

During the early 2000’s there started to be some variation. Beretta and LTT came out with the uber cool Elite and the Vertec. SIG had some special editions followed by the SRT and DAK triggers and then some folks like Ghost started to come out with different connectors for Glock. New finishes like Black-T and NP3 (fairly proprietary and applied by only their respective vendors) had been around since the 1990’s done by a select few, but by the late 2000’s everyone and their cousin was applying Cerakote or some spray and bake in a commercial store front or in their garage.

https://i.imgur.com/cy7OwCWl.jpg

I had spent (wasted) lots of money on custom 1911’s already, but the aforementioned guns really didn’t need anything custom. They were what they were….and furthermore they were good to go right out of the box.

Late 2000’s I remember going to a pistol class taught by Kyle Lamb and Mike Pannone and before the decade was over a Blackwater USA class taught by the man himself Bill Go. What all three instructors had in common is that they were shooting stock Glocks as were most of the attendees with a few classic SIGs and 1911’s sprinkled in.

The point is that up until about 2010 or so most of guns used for social purposes, especially for police duty carry, were pretty darn stock.

Then the wheels fell off…

https://i.imgur.com/V1QWe1Cl.jpg


INDUSTRY CHANGE AND SOCIAL MEDIA

I’m really going to give the credit to Youtube here with a dash of Instagram and to guys like Costa.

I’ll also give credit to the folks that cheapened SigArms and the whole Glock Gen4 debacle.

I would also be remiss though from giving credit to cheap CNC machines and 3D printers that any jackwagon can buy and the ability to sell whatever you want on the internet.

What we have seen in the past few years is an EXPLOSION of aftermarket parts and accessories…especially for Glocks and other polymer guns.

I had played with “custom” Glocks for a long time, but for the most part “custom” meant changing the sights, the connector, maybe the barrel, and doing a stipple job….oh and of course…putting in ridiculously heavy guide rod.

In the early 2010’s when Magpul was the shiz, I got talked by some co-workers into going to a class taught by Chris Costa. It was a complete waste of time and money (he spent about half the class posing for pictures), but I got to shoot a Glock 19 done up for him by a company called Salient. I was shocked by the insanely light trigger pull and the lightening cuts in the slide. I was flabbergasted by price as well, but was not shocked at all when it had some failures to feed. I asked him about the gun and he told me he was carrying it. It boggled my mind that someone, especially someone providing training to others on defensive pistolcraft would think that a trigger that light would be a good idea. His response was something along the lines of, “Dude, but it looks cool!” I shouldn’t have been surprised…

Since that time I have seen so many aftermarket Glock slides and frames copying that “look” that it is mind boggling. SOOOOOOO many Youtube videos and Instagram posts. SOOOOO many tattooed dude-bro’s talking about “mods.” SOOOOOO much wasted money…

What I did not expect to see, but should have seen coming, was these parts finding their way into law enforcement…

THE CRESCENDO

Around 2009 or so we had an otherwise very competent guy and accomplished shooter at my department stick a Ghost connector on his otherwise stock Glock 35. He also put a Surefire X200 on it the same day. He took it to the range, put a few hundred rounds through it and began carrying it. No one really saw a problem with it. A few weeks later on a prowler call he came across said prowler lurking in a bush….and promptly put a round of 40 S&W into the ground a few feet from him. The combo of the manipulating the light with his trigger finger and a super light trigger nearly lead to disaster. He immediately put the gun back to stock. Lesson learned…for him and for us as a department regarding WML’s and training.

Flash-forward a few years and there are two guys carrying Salient Glocks and a guy with an Agency Arms Glock. I’m not a fan, but they’re carried by competent guys and the guns seem to work for them. Want to waste $2k on a $500 pistol that’s your choice.

What happened last week though is going to cause a change.

A guy working overtime shows up in uniform, on duty, and shoots a qual for the heck of it. His gun is a stippled factory Glock 17 Gen5 frame with an aftermarket slide (looked like moths had gotten hold of it), aftermarket barrel (fluted of course), aftermarket guide rod, aftermarket trigger, aftermarket connector, aftermarket magwell, with aftermarket magazines. Sweet.

He literally could not make it for more than ten rounds without some type of malfunction.

Now if this was a “play-gun” I could care less, but this was the gun he was carrying at work that night. The best part was that during his attempt to shoot the qual the RMR plate fell off the slide when the screw sheared (who cares right?). Unfortunately it made the gun stick in the Safariland ALS holster.

Needless to say he was told he could not go back on the street with that gun. He spent the weekend finding all the factory parts he had taken off so that another armorer could put his gun back together.

As a department we are planning to do an “armorer inspection” this fall (something we always used to do until a certain supervisor didn’t think it was necessary anymore).

The guy with the super-modified-but-did-not-work-sorta-Glock is a young guy working nights that fancies himself a gun guy. He watched too many stupid Youtube videos and social media posts and drank the Kool-Aid. Unfortunately, it very easily could have cost him or someone working with him their lives if he had tried to rely on it in a lethal encounter.

SO WHAT’S YOUR POINT?

I am not against well thought out modifications to a defensive gun if they serve a purpose.

I am totally against any modification that detracts from reliability and safety.

Shooters, especially new shooters, are overwhelmed by the amount of aftermarket garbage being pushed on them these days. It is available and if a coolguy on the internet says it makes my thing better it must be good right?

What I told our hapless young man with his broken roscoe that night was this:
“A billion dollar company with a fleet of engineers in Austria came up with this thing that passed government testing and various safety tests and that same company stakes their liability on their product designed the parts you took off this gun and designed them to work in concert with one another. A dude with a CNC machine in his garage probably made most of the parts you stuck on it. Which parts do you want to trust your life on?”

Every now and then someone may come up with a better mousetrap. I think Randy Lee with his Apex M&P trigger components is a good example. But these examples are few and far between.

Changing the sights on a Glock to something more robust and useable is accepted common sense. I installed a Wilson barrel in my Glock 17 almost ten years ago because I wanted to shoot lead reloads safely and wanted the little bit of extra accuracy it provided at distance, but I tested the living crap out of it before I ever relied upon it to live in my duty holster.

If you are going to modify a gun, make sure the modification has an expressed purpose and that you properly vet its reliability before trusting it with your life. Don’t just stick something on your gun because it looks cool…


When first hired, I wondered why our gun policy was so restrictive.... then I saw what idiots do to guns. Our policy is, Leave it stock. Only factory OEM parts and Factory finishes. Even then, there can be issues.

We issued 229 DAK, but approved personal purchase 229s in DA SA. So what starts to show up? Sig “special editions”.... yuck. No rainbow titanium, but some super polished blue and “Texas edition” stuff... “Hey, why is my gun rusting?” Uhhh, because you bought a decoration, not a real carry gun.

We do an annual inspection of every firearm. And every year we find strange stuff.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Having run a firearms program for 700 out of an agency of 15k LEO's I am totally with Gadfly on this one.

I agree with you in principle but I also believe your department failed that young officer by entertaining that crap in the first place.


The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers. Socrates 400 BC

The derp on guns is nothing new. Nothing changed around 2009 except people switched from doing stupid, poorly executed modifications to 1911's and revolvers and started doing them to polymer service pistols instead.

I'm all for choices, a list of vetted POW weapons and a list of vetted, approved modifications and accessories etc. Bit the guns need to be armorer inspected before being placed on duty.

Would I be OK with guys running a Glock trigger with 100% functional safeties like Robar or over watch ? sure? 25 cent trigger job ? no, regardless of who did it. I'm all for optics too but again, it would,need to be limited to either MOS type set ups or a limited number of vetted vendors like ATEI, L&M etc. Copies of the work order would need to go with the paperwork authorizing the gun for duty. More likely limited to something like MOS or a Unity slide.

In a small enough department (< 100 ?) you can do "as approved by the armorer" but even then, the modification of accessory should be justified in writing as to "why" when submitted to the armorer for consideration. In larger agencies it is a recipe for issues exactly as you describe.

Cops are cheap and most cops are not "gun people." They either refuse to buy anything of buy the cheapest and easiest thing they can find - see Holster, SERPA. Even among those that are, there are actual shooters and then there are the "gun fondlers" many of whom can barely qualify. It gets even more interesting when one of the gun fondlers wants to be a firearms instructor but cant shoot to the necessary standard.

[Trukinjp13]

The guns I listed are plenty simple to operate, and it's easy for anyone (but especially an inexperienced person) to pull a number of rounds off target in a stressful situation, particularly with a DA pull on every round like a revolver. Coupled with limited capacity, basically zero chance of reloading, the very real possibility of multiple assailants, and the often questionable efficacy of handgun rounds, well I guess you can imagine my conclusion on revolvers for the inexperienced.

Wife shoots my striker guns far better than she does revolvers. Heavy gun and heavy pull does not work well for her little frame. A revolver is supposedly simpler. But I have seen many people short stroke a long da trigger. While I have never seen anyone fail to complete a Glock magazine because of the trigger. She is not a gun person at all. But she quickly learned how to load the gun and chamber a round. She will never reload it in a fight realistically. So I’ll take the massive capacity advantage as well. Hell I shoot pistols Better than revolvers.


I have never liked Gucci guns. High end Nighthawks and Wilson’s are awesome. 2500$ Glocks are fucking nuts. My Glocks have bone stock internals. (Gadgeted) it works damn good as it is. Love that gen 5 trigger. Goes bang every time guaranteed. To me a Glock always be a tool. A nice 1911 or High power is just a damn cool gun with a soul.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Ed L]

Great Post.

When I trained with Costa in the fall of 2009 he was with Magpul Dynamics before he had that heavily modified Glock.




Then the wheels fell off…

https://i.imgur.com/V1QWe1Cl.jpg



For anyone interested in a CHris Costa action figure, there are a few available on Ebay.

Disclaimer: I am not the seller of the Chris Costa action figures, not do I own one, or any other action figures.

[Dave T]

I'm an old geezer who occasionally crawls out from under my rock to visit this forum (and a few others). Who the (expletive deleted) is Chris Costa?

Dave

[HCM]

I'm an old geezer who occasionally crawls out from under my rock to visit this forum (and a few others). Who the (expletive deleted) is Chris Costa?

Dave

He's big in Japan...


https://youtu.be/O3CxkhMVva4

https://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/2015/01/08/chris-costa-making-japanese-dudes-forget-about-their-love-dolls/

[hiro]

.....

[entropy]

Everybody has to have a schtick....

That’s more than just Chris Costa...that’s an Entertainment System

[farscott]

If my wife is being approached by would be thief/rapist/murderer(s) I'd rather a G17/P229/P30/M&P9/almostanythingwithmoreroundsandbettershootabilityt hanarevolver be in her hands

My wife picks her own guns. She used to carry a S&W M65LS when she was on duty. She loved that revolver (it has the serrated grip frame and the laminated Magna grips) until she stop working and discovered the P30 LEM. That is her carry pistol of choice as (her words) "sixteen rounds before a reload is better than six". She is a better shot than me, considering that I practice a lot more. She has that insanely good hand/eye coordination that she always uses/exercises doing sewing and knitting.

Funny thing is I like Glocks and she cannot stand them. Part of the reason I carried a P30 for years and stay proficient with one.

As for the theme of the post, a lot of aftermarket changes I see are changes for the sake of being a "gun hipster". As someone who does have extensive grip work (delete finger grooves and reduce grip circumference) by competent individuals done on Glock pistols so the pistols better fit me, my internals are all stock (and installed by a Glock armorer) with the exception of adding a Gadget SCD. I also do not use aftermarket or windowed slides.

[fixer]

I'm going to take some flak for this post, but here goes...

What I told our hapless young man with his broken roscoe that night was this:
“A billion dollar company with a fleet of engineers in Austria came up with this thing that passed government testing and various safety tests and that same company stakes their liability on their product designed the parts you took off this gun and designed them to work in concert with one another. A dude with a CNC machine in his garage probably made most of the parts you stuck on it. Which parts do you want to trust your life on?”



Great post. This part struck me...I had the same experience when I was heavy into modifying cars for more speed. Same truth to the argument really for any mass manufactured system.

Once I worked for a major OEM as an engineer, I could see the other side of it and how true it is. Literally an army of folks whose day job and career it is to make the systems work together. Two knuckle heads in a garage can only do so much before things go sideways. We wanted 900 rwhp, smooth idle, air conditioning, no engine noise, and start ups that don't drain a battery, smooth ride but corners well, no oil leaks, we only got a few of these things and it took us a year working on it after work.

I work in a different industry now (oil and gas) but ironically deal with the same things. There are start ups that blow up overnight because they think they have a solution based on some flaw from the OEM. Pumps, compressors, gearboxes, seals, etc...

When I speak to the OEMs invariably it comes down to "we've already thought of xyz. The problem is our FEA (or whatever) model shows it overstresses another part of the machine causing a bigger problem."

[Jared]

KevH, I think maybe the only thing you missed giving credit to in your OP is the increased awareness of competition shooting in the last ten years or so thanks to the internet. I'm particularly referencing the dramatic rise in popularity of tricked out CZ's and Tanfo's that basically took over in USPSA production division. I know I've noticed a trend over the last few years on the forums towards those guns (mostly the CZ's). I dunno how many of your officers are aware of the shooting sports and whether it's had an effect at your specific agency. What I do know is that there's been a very noticeable increase in interest in "custom" CZ's on the forums for defensive and carry use.

[LittleLebowski]

Fantastic first post, thank you.

[psalms144.1]

Kev - I've been trying to "improve" Glocks for decades now, and always end up back to stock. When I was shooting earlier generation Glocks, I REALLY liked one of the Ghost connectors, and tested it extensively, was getting ready to switch across the board to them in my carry guns when I saw their "motto," and decided I ddin't want to have to explain why I needed a "Ghost Maker" trigger in my duty gun if, God forbid, I ever got into a shooting... With the advent of the Gen5 guns, that's finally stopped, those are pretty much GTG in factory stock condition - they even come with good NS as an option.

I'll say this - there are PLENTY of good guns on the market today that don't need to be "blung" (is that a word) to work well. Gen5 Glocks, HK VP9s, CZ P10s/P07s, Beretta APX are just some that come to mind immediately. My advice to ALL my new agents is - pick one of the above that fits your hand and you'll be willing to dress around, and stick with it, STOCK.

There's an experienced shooter in my squad who carries a tricked out G22 (doesn't actually carry it, just breaks it out for operations, the rest of the time he carries something smaller). A couple months back, he had an issue with magazines (full and partially loaded) dropping out of the gun while he was shooting it. Luckily, turns out it was just worn out mags that needed to be retired, but, when I asked what modifications he had to his pistol, it was, essentially, everything except the frame and slide. Barrel, upper guts, lower guts - all aftermarket. Has a SWEET trigger (I'd guess 3.5-4 pounds), but I wouldn't want to carry it on duty...

But, then again, I'm just an old, nearing retirement FI with 30 years of experience. What do I know?

[blues]

If you wife is a "gun person" and likes to shoot enough to understand the cycle of operation of a handgun - go for it. If she is a like a lot of people, and looks at a gun like the fire extinguisher in their kitchen or a spare tire in their car, then a revolver makes a whole lot of sense.

I have seen multiple ND's by LEO's in the past 20 plus years and the majority of them were caused by LEO's who did not understand the cycle of operation of their semi auto handgun. Same with most ND's in the military. NDs are a very real, and common "negative outcome."

For non "gun people" the admin handling advantages of a revolver outweigh its other limitations.

Thank you, H. Just so.

[newt]

I'm going to take some flak for this post, but here goes...

What I told our hapless young man with his broken roscoe that night was this:
“A billion dollar company with a fleet of engineers in Austria came up with this thing that passed government testing and various safety tests and that same company stakes their liability on their product designed the parts you took off this gun and designed them to work in concert with one another. A dude with a CNC machine in his garage probably made most of the parts you stuck on it. Which parts do you want to trust your life on?”

Every now and then someone may come up with a better mousetrap. I think Randy Lee with his Apex M&P trigger components is a good example. But these examples are few and far between.

Changing the sights on a Glock to something more robust and useable is accepted common sense. I installed a Wilson barrel in my Glock 17 almost ten years ago because I wanted to shoot lead reloads safely and wanted the little bit of extra accuracy it provided at distance, but I tested the living crap out of it before I ever relied upon it to live in my duty holster.



Good post. I like to do customs myself(as well as stock), mostly because I can and it's fun, although I'm very careful that I use only top quality stuff (i.e. Langdon, Apex, etc), or top Quality Smiths (Yost, MARS, etc). And I test the hell out of stuff, because that's also fun(and necessary.) :) As an engineer, I eat this shit up.

That said I'm an engineer(well manager now, so I've had my management lobotomy) who has helped build a business (with many other people of course) that's worth a number that likely now has a B or two in it. Ole Gaston himself wasn't much of a business in the firearms space when he started, and he changed the entire industry. My own product has likely changed the way computing, security, and networking happen.

A lot of the best advances come from some nobody that pushes the limit, sees those limitations, and tries something new. A lot of them fail. Heck, probably 98% fail. But for all those, the Glocks, Randy Lees, Bruce Grays show up, become experts and help change an industry to varying degrees. Don't knock'em, just know their place. Play with them like you did, let others do the initial testing. You'll learn something. If the manufacturer is smart, they will learn too. I remember when Magpul mags came out. A freaking (injection?)molded piece of plastic...Good on'em. I love that stuff.

Those garage machine shops are mostly dumbshits. But there are some diamonds. And those sometimes become the Gaston Glocks (who I believe literally started in his garage). :)

N

[Darth_Uno]

All these aftermarket parts usually do exactly what they claim - make the trigger pull lighter/shorter, cycle the slide faster, possibly (barely) more accurate. But the tradeoff is ALWAYS reliability. I can't think of any mods that are guaranteed to make it more dependable. Even the "upgraded" stainless parts (vs mim). It may run just fine; it also may not.

After playing that game, I've settled on minus connectors and Suarez triggers. I've yet to have a problem with the Suarez triggers, and they pass all safety checks. I'm not saying they help me any, I just have a preference for a flat trigger.

[HCM]

KevH, I think maybe the only thing you missed giving credit to in your OP is the increased awareness of competition shooting in the last ten years or so thanks to the internet. I'm particularly referencing the dramatic rise in popularity of tricked out CZ's and Tanfo's that basically took over in USPSA production division. I know I've noticed a trend over the last few years on the forums towards those guns (mostly the CZ's). I dunno how many of your officers are aware of the shooting sports and whether it's had an effect at your specific agency. What I do know is that there's been a very noticeable increase in interest in "custom" CZ's on the forums for defensive and carry use.

You do know that custom CZ pattern guns had a dramatic rise in popularity and USPSA in the early 1990s? The 1994 AWB killed off interest in CZs and unintentionally resulted in a renaissance of the 1911.


https://youtu.be/0mhZBLUyybo

[RAM Engineer]

“A billion dollar company with a fleet of engineers in Austria came up with this thing that passed government testing and various safety tests and that same company stakes their liability on their product designed the parts you took off this gun and designed them to work in concert with one another. A dude with a CNC machine in his garage probably made most of the parts you stuck on it. Which parts do you want to trust your life on?”

I love this quote.

[blues]

“A billion dollar company with a fleet of engineers in Austria came up with this thing that passed government testing and various safety tests and that same company stakes their liability on their product designed the parts you took off this gun and designed them to work in concert with one another. A dude with a CNC machine in his garage probably made most of the parts you stuck on it. Which parts do you want to trust your life on?”

I love this quote.

That said, I trust the "Gadget" and if Tom's posts regarding his poverty are to be taken seriously, he didn't have the largest budget to work with when creating his striker control device. (Just kidding about the poverty, Tom_Jones.)

Sometimes brilliance and doggedness will carry the day.

[HCM]

“A billion dollar company with a fleet of engineers in Austria came up with this thing that passed government testing and various safety tests and that same company stakes their liability on their product designed the parts you took off this gun and designed them to work in concert with one another. A dude with a CNC machine in his garage probably made most of the parts you stuck on it. Which parts do you want to trust your life on?”

I love this quote.

Except the original G17 was a product of “a dude in a garage” who happened to be an engineer with experience making curtain rods and components for heating systems and a couple guys whose prior experience was making camera bodies.

What they do have is 40 years of extensive field use and refinement.

It’s also worth noting that the original “it’s an upgrade, not a recall” was the result of Glock failing drop tests during some government (DEA) tests during the early 1990s.

Once again time is a flat circle.

[HCM]

That said, I trust the "Gadget" and if Tom's posts regarding his poverty are to be taken seriously, he didn't have the largest budget to work with when creating his striker control device. (Just kidding about the poverty, Tom_Jones.)

Sometimes brilliance and doggedness will carry the day.

Glock started as a dude in a garage with no prior gun experience.

[PNWTO]

Very timely thread since Ed Calderon just posted a quote I think of often when I see these companies and groups marketing to the Timmies and Sheepdogs.

38720

[blues]

Glock started as a dude in a garage with no prior gun experience.

I'm aware of this and a fan of the brilliance of its origins.

[HCM]

I'm aware of this and a fan of the brilliance of its origins.

My point being the Gadget came from the same humble origins as the Glock itself. The billion dollar company and fleet of engineers came later.

Speaking of engineers, with regard to Tom_Jones vs Glock


https://youtu.be/rYco0UsWhLc

For those who haven’t seen “The Right Stuff”


https://youtu.be/1dSkX9VySOI

[blues]

My point being the Gadget came from the same humble origins as the Glock itself. The billion dollar company and fleet of engineers came later.

Again, you're preaching to the choir, H. That was kind of the point of my original post. Anyway, we're on the same page. (Not unusual.)

[KevH]

Except the original G17 was a product of “a dude in a garage” who happened to be an engineer with experience making curtain rods and components for heating systems and a couple guys whose prior experience was making camera bodies.

What they do have is 40 years of extensive field use and refinement.

It’s also worth noting that the original “it’s an upgrade, not a recall” was the result of Glock failing drop tests during some government (DEA) tests during the early 1990s.

Once again time is a flat circle.

I'm not bagging on inventors or entrepreneurs in my original post. Whether we're talking about the origins of Hewlett-Packard, Apple, Colt, S&W or Glock itself all of those companies started in a garage or small shop with experimentation and testing. I cited Randy Lee with his Apex trigger in the M&P as one such example and the Gadget is certainly another example for those that find utility in it.

Some times Hot-Rodding and pushing the envelope works. Often times it does not. The test bed for product development should not be on a cop's duty gun or the average Joe's gun for self-defense.

The market has been flooded with aftermarket parts pushed by social media platforms with a dizzying array of junk popping up every day. Yes, there are some diamonds in the rough out there. The point is that we must be more discerning as consumers today than ever before.

HCM ...I totally agree that in LE if we cannot trust our officers to be discerning themselves then we must be discerning for them through policy. My own department's policy was written to be 1911-centric well over two decades ago. It's likely time for an update.

[blues]

My own department's policy was written to be 1911-centric well over two decades ago. It's likely time for an update.

Thinking back on it, we had a pretty wide open policy with our outfit up until the middle to late 90's.

You could carry your personally owned weapon as long as you qualified with it during our quarterly quals. There was no admonition in place, that I can recall, about aftermarket parts. (I carried a Colt Gov't Model, Series 70 during some of those years, and can remember carrying aftermarket extended magazines, even on SRT.)

I didn't like when the policy was finally morphed (at first) to only Glocks, and then only their Glocks at that, even if you owned the same models. But in retrospect it makes sense since lots of folks wouldn't know how to operate various other guns, let alone keep their own properly updated and maintained. So, I guess my dislike of the policy was (ultimately) misplaced.

[KevH]

blues

Our department issued S&W Model 15's (actually most were pre-15 Combat Masterpieces) up until 1972 when they started issuing Colt Series 70 Government Models. They switched to issue the S&W Model 659 around 1985 when the "Wonder Nine" craze went full bore and that morphed into the 5906/6909 when the 3rd Gens came out. The 45 ACP 1911 was already deeply ingrained into the culture of our PD though.

As you know this was right around the time of the Jeff Cooper/Bill Wilson/Hackathorn-driven 1911 renaissance and guys wanted to modify the basic Government Model with beavertail grip safeties, Bo-Mar sights, magwells and such. So our policy gave them the ability to do that.

By the late 1990's we allowed personally owned Berettas, SIGs, Glocks, and H&K's. Since at the time no one really modified any of those guns beyond what I mentioned in my original post the policy just didn't really deal with it. No problem = no policy change.

Up until about 2015 or so probably half of our department or more were carrying 1911's (it had been that way for a long time). As older guys retire and newer are hired that has shifted dramatically.

[blues]

blues

Our department issued S&W Model 15's (actually most were pre-15 Combat Masterpieces) up until 1972 when they started issuing Colt Series 70 Government Models. They switched to issue the S&W Model 659 around 1985 when the "Wonder Nine" craze went full bore and that morphed into the 5906/6909 when the 3rd Gens came out. The 45 ACP 1911 was already deeply ingrained into the culture of our PD though.

As you know this was right around the time of the Jeff Cooper/Bill Wilson/Hackathorn-driven 1911 renaissance and guys wanted to modify the basic Government Model with beavertail grip safeties, Bo-Mar sights, magwells and such. So our policy gave them the ability to do that.

By the late 1990's we allowed personally owned Berettas, SIGs, Glocks, and H&K's. Since at the time no one really modified any of those guns beyond what I mentioned in my original post the policy just didn't really deal with it. No problem = no policy change.

Up until about 2015 or so probably half of our department or more were carrying 1911's (it had been that way for a long time). As older guys retire and newer are hired that has shifted dramatically.

Sounds a lot like what my experience was in regard to issued firearms.

Started with the 2" S&W Model 15 "Combat Masterpiece" and the Model 36 for on or off-duty, even primary with my first outfit.

Then after switching outfits and relocating: S&W Model 19, S&W 6946, (first issued auto), Colt Gov't Model, followed by Glocks.
(Long guns were 870, Steyr AUG, H&K MP5, CAR15)

[Erick Gelhaus]

I'm going to take some flak for this post, but here goes...


I don't think you should take any heat. This is a well written discussion of a path traveled. I truly appreciate it.

My organization had a bunch of 1911s in duty holsters for many, many years. We were also blessed with having an exceedingly competent 1911 gunsmith local to us who also worked as a reserve.

Then, new / personaly owned pistols didn't go into service until you put 500rds through them. After the .40cal Glock issues we began recommending round counts like those before duty use.

Thank you for this effort Kevin.

[Jared]

You do know that custom CZ pattern guns had a dramatic rise in popularity and USPSA in the early 1990s? The 1994 AWB killed off interest in CZs and unintentionally resulted in a renaissance of the 1911.


https://youtu.be/0mhZBLUyybo

Actually, no, I wasn't aware of the initial CZ USPSA surge pre-94. I was very very aware of the post 94 1911 renaissance as the later half of the 90's is when my gun interests began and I started reading gun magazines, which extolled the virtues of the idea that "if you can only have 10 they better be 10 big ones" or some such.

Still though, I think the tricked out Shadows and Tanfo's taking over Production division influenced some people to want tricked out CZ carry guns. And the unintended consequences occur there too. Take the P07. It's known that dry firing a P07 can damage one of the roll pins in the slide. Some people put a foam earplug in there to prevent that. I think it's Cajun gun works that sells a solid pin to replace the roll pin. That keeps the pin from being damaged. However, I have seen some reports that dry firing extensively with the Cajun solid pin can damage the firing pin.

[KevH]

Actually, no, I wasn't aware of the initial CZ USPSA surge pre-94. I was very very aware of the post 94 1911 renaissance as the later half of the 90's is when my gun interests began and I started reading gun magazines, which extolled the virtues of the idea that "if you can only have 10 they better be 10 big ones" or some such.

Still though, I think the tricked out Shadows and Tanfo's taking over Production division influenced some people to want tricked out CZ carry guns. And the unintended consequences occur there too. Take the P07. It's known that dry firing a P07 can damage one of the roll pins in the slide. Some people put a foam earplug in there to prevent that. I think it's Cajun gun works that sells a solid pin to replace the roll pin. That keeps the pin from being damaged. However, I have seen some reports that dry firing extensively with the Cajun solid pin can damage the firing pin.

I would almost guarantee that none of the cops that I'm dealing with trying to modify their Glocks even know what a CZ is let alone let it influence their decision making.

My department, nor any of the departments around here, allow their cops to carry CZ's nor do I think most of them even know what USPSA or IPSC is. For the most part they are a mix of 22 year old newbs and under 30 year old former military guys that are feeding off of social media and each other. None of them shoot competitively.

How do I know? Because I take the time to talk to them.

[HCM]

Actually, no, I wasn't aware of the initial CZ USPSA surge pre-94. I was very very aware of the post 94 1911 renaissance as the later half of the 90's is when my gun interests began and I started reading gun magazines, which extolled the virtues of the idea that "if you can only have 10 they better be 10 big ones" or some such.

Still though, I think the tricked out Shadows and Tanfo's taking over Production division influenced some people to want tricked out CZ carry guns. And the unintended consequences occur there too. Take the P07. It's known that dry firing a P07 can damage one of the roll pins in the slide. Some people put a foam earplug in there to prevent that. I think it's Cajun gun works that sells a solid pin to replace the roll pin. That keeps the pin from being damaged. However, I have seen some reports that dry firing extensively with the Cajun solid pin can damage the firing pin.

Yes, CZs were popular as the had previously unavailable during the Cold War. The first RDS hand gun I ever shot was a CZ 75B .40 cal with a factory RDS in the late 90s.

The main competition for CZ was a CZ 75 clone imported by Srpringfield Armory called the P9.

[Hambo]

Well, maybe you're gonna take some flak, but from me it's only because:



I'm sorry, dinosaurs were already pretty much extinct by then. ;)

BTW, this particular dinosaur didn't put night sights on his Glocks, (purchased in 1988 and 1995), until 2016 or 2017. In fact, I may have had the Gadget first. (Is it any wonder they went extinct? :p)

Good post.

Thank you, Blues. These Cretaceous guys think they're old school, but it just isn't so.

[blues]

Thank you, Blues. These Cretaceous guys think they're old school, but it just isn't so.

They up against some OJ playas. (Original Jurassic, yo! We don't even wanna get all Triassic on their asses!)


;)

[mmc45414]

Started with the 2" S&W Model 15 "Combat Masterpiece"

Was scrolling bottom up.on my phone and knew who wrote it as soon as I read this...[emoji41]

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

[blues]

Was scrolling bottom up.on my phone and knew who wrote it as soon as I read this...[emoji41]

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

Well at least I'm consistent (and honest). ;)

[mmc45414]

Well at least...
I think you are just about older than me enough that you were being issued that M-15 about the same time I was funding (Dad buying...) the purchase of my first gun, a 4" M-15, with money I made delivering newspapers.

[MDFA]

Started with a M-15 Combat Masterpiece and ended the first time with Glock 22. Working on the retired rehired program now with an M-9.
When I started in LE, Christ wasn't a Corporal yet, I attended his first enlistment ceremony....