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Cecil Burch
06-03-2019, 07:37 AM
I wrote this on my blog a couple of weeks ago but I thought re-posting it here may be helpful or informative for readers here, especially those who are new to H2H or grappling.

It is not a secret to many people that know me that I am not a huge fan of no-gi training, especially in a self-defense context.

Mostly my opposition to it revolves around a couple of things.

Unless we are anticipating fighting a greased up naked dude, there is a very good chance we will have handles of some kind that we can use to improve our chance of survival. This is not to say that those handles will always be the exact equivalent of gis, but more than likely they will be something that can be used in a similar fashion. Just having the knowledge and capability of controlling the sleeves/arms of the other guy and tying him up in a way that makes it hard for him to do something violent and offensive towards you may well be the single greatest technique to use in an entangled fight. I regularly teach, and have taught for more than 14 years, the ability for someone to use the choking strategies of BJJ and apply them to something as simple as a t-shirt. To this day, even against someone resisting violently, I have yet to have a t-shirt rip and render the choke impossible. With all that, it just makes sense that if we are truly focused on self-defense that spending the majority of our training time in the gi is a good thing.

No-gi, as even its most vociferous proponents will agree, is a young man’s game. It relies on strength, speed, aggression, mobility, cardiovascular conditioning, etc. to be consistently successful. A heavy reliance which is great if you have those things but not so awesome if you don’t, and, let’s face it, it is far more likely to be true for those of us in the real world and just everyday people and not professional athletes in their physical prime. We cannot rely on those things to pull us through. In fact, we need to start with the premise that all of our opponents will be bigger, stronger, tougher, faster, meaner, more aggressive, less injured, have the initiative, and any other attribute we can think of. That needs to be our philosophical starting point.

Does that mean I am dead set against no-gi, or that I believe that is has no value at all for self-defense? I am in no way saying that. I think there are some spots that no-gi training shines, and while those spots may be less important or less necessary, does not meant they should be ignored.

Where no-gi shines is:

You must actively and continuously be trying to control the other guy’s arms. Because there is no way to grab and lock down and just hold them, no-gi forces you into a very aggressive and constant attempt to secure as much control over the arms as possible. And if that control only lasts a moment, then you have to go right back to retrieving it. This is a great benefit in a self-preservation context because we must make sure that the other person cannot freely strike us or have free reign to deploy a weapon into the fight. Gi work gives you a better idea of how to control. And no-gi gets you used to fighting for it all the time.

It is difficult and somewhat low percentage to fight from the bottom in no-gi. Even a great guard player is extremely restricted in his ability to attack, so the better strategy is to fight from the top or have back control. So in no-gi, you have to put a premium on constantly working to drive your hips over and to come up and be upright. And of course this may very well be the single best tactical plan if we are fighting for our lives in the street.

Even though I dislike no-gi, I do think that not only does it offer some value for self-defense, but it also is just good practice to work it on its own anyway. I follow Stephen Kesting’s dictum that BJJ training should be 80/20. 80% of the time do your preferred type or work, and 20% do the other, regardless of personal taste or preference.

Doc_Glock
06-03-2019, 08:17 AM
Thank you for bringing that here Cecil. I would love to see you posting more. I am sorry but I don’t always remember to check your blog, but when I do it is filled with awesome.

Cecil Burch
06-03-2019, 09:39 AM
Thank you for bringing that here Cecil. I would love to see you posting more. I am sorry but I don’t always remember to check your blog, but when I do it is filled with awesome.

Thank you. I appreciate that very much.

I’ve always been somewhat reluctant to post too much here because there has not been a specific forum to talk about the area that I am (perhaps) an SME, and I did not want to just post Combatives crap all over when I was not sure if more than a handful of people cared. I always enjoyed answering questions but I didn’t wan’t to start that kind of conversation too often. With this sub-forum, at least people who are not interested can ignore it, so I plan to regularly write here. It’s kind of a thank you to Todd who supported and encouraged me incessantly (after we stopped hating each other!) and to Tom who has truly gone out of his way to support me, and to LL who has as well.

blues
06-03-2019, 09:54 AM
Cecil, your insights and perspectives, (and this goes for Craig as well), are appreciated even by those of us who have been out of the combatives game for some time. Knowledge is power, and awareness its indispensable sibling.

Thanks for sharing them here.

pooty
06-03-2019, 10:02 AM
What about 'half gi', like rolling in gi pants and t-shirt?

GAP
06-03-2019, 03:09 PM
Great points; when I was actively competing in MMA, I always trained for self-defense and stayed in shape. With the exception of a 6-8 week fight camp, all of my time was spent training in a Gi. I live in the North, so we are in heavier clothing for a majority of the year. Unless I am fighting a sun lotion’d up guy on the beach or competing in MMA, no-Gi training is not a better investment of my time.

I also agree that fighting off of your back is very low percentage in no-Gi. However, with a Gi (or clothing) I would consider it a somewhat “even” position for someone with a really good guard. We can obviously write a book regarding the disadvantages of having your head close to concrete, but sometimes you don’t have a choice.

Glad to see this sub-forum is officially off and running!

GAP
06-03-2019, 03:11 PM
What about 'half gi', like rolling in gi pants and t-shirt?

My personal opinion is that you can, but establish the “rules” beforehand. If you can grab the pants, then agree to grab the shirt.

All-or-nothing, based on what your training purpose is during that session.

Balisong
06-03-2019, 03:21 PM
I had actually been curious about this topic for some time. Thank you for the insight and perspective!

randyho
06-03-2019, 03:48 PM
Unless we are anticipating fighting a greased up naked dude, there is a very good chance we will have handles of some kind that we can use to improve our chance of survival. This is not to say that those handles will always be the exact equivalent of gis, but more than likely they will be something that can be used in a similar fashion. Just having the knowledge and capability of controlling the sleeves/arms of the other guy and tying him up in a way that makes it hard for him to do something violent and offensive towards you may well be the single greatest technique to use in an entangled fight. I regularly teach, and have taught for more than 14 years, the ability for someone to use the choking strategies of BJJ and apply them to something as simple as a t-shirt. To this day, even against someone resisting violently, I have yet to have a t-shirt rip and render the choke impossible. With all that, it just makes sense that if we are truly focused on self-defense that spending the majority of our training time in the gi is a good thing.
Context: Former wrestler who has appreciated and made use of (oh, I see you're wearing a hoodie...) the extra handles in the very rare cases where that was relevant. That's an excellent point.

However, and I am not challenging but asking in the hopes of clarifying, the last sentence in that para seems to argue to opposite.

Cecil Burch
06-03-2019, 07:00 PM
Context: Former wrestler who has appreciated and made use of (oh, I see you're wearing a hoodie...) the extra handles in the very rare cases where that was relevant. That's an excellent point.

However, and I am not challenging but asking in the hopes of clarifying, the last sentence in that para seems to argue to opposite.

People we tend to need to defend ourselves against in general wear clothes, so it makes sense to spend time training that way to my way of thinking. I have been very successful in using t-shirts for handles, as have a number of people.

Cecil Burch
06-03-2019, 07:01 PM
What about 'half gi', like rolling in gi pants and t-shirt?

That’s perfectly fine. If you use them-shirts to grab, that is probably a good idea, but be prepared to go through shirts on a regular basis.

Tactical Black Belt
06-03-2019, 08:27 PM
I look at this from a little different angle.

If I am forced to defend myself from a violent assault my objective is not to grab the bad guy and wrestle. It is to end his hostile actions as soon as possible and get away. This is best accomplished by attacking his eyes, throat or balls or by applying a healthy dose of blunt force trauma. Tansu is about using elbows, knees, head buts, finger breaking and a host of assorted nasties that are banned from the UFC and virtually all other forms of sport fighting, and for a very good reason. Nobody wants to get blinded or have their nose bitten off for sport.

Now, with that being said, should you learn to wrestle? Of course! You never know when you might get put on the deck but it should not be your main objective. Only wrestle long enough to hurt the bad guy. This is because most real fights involve other people and the last thing you want in a violent assault is to have both hands full of "bad guy A" trying to hold him down with your head at perfect punt level when you could have kicked him in the groin or jammed a thumb two knuckles deep in his eyes and ended it immediately.

Cory
06-03-2019, 08:53 PM
I look at this from a little different angle.

If I am forced to defend myself from a violent assault my objective is not to grab the bad guy and wrestle. It is to end his hostile actions as soon as possible and get away. This is best accomplished by attacking his eyes, throat or balls or by applying a healthy dose of blunt force trauma. Tansu is about using elbows, knees, head buts, finger breaking and a host of assorted nasties that are banned from the UFC and virtually all other forms of sport fighting, and for a very good reason. Nobody wants to get blinded or have their nose bitten off for sport.

Now, with that being said, should you learn to wrestle? Of course! You never know when you might get put on the deck but it should not be your main objective. Only wrestle long enough to hurt the bad guy. This is because most real fights involve other people and the last thing you want in a violent assault is to have both hands full of "bad guy A" trying to hold him down with your head at perfect punt level when you could have kicked him in the groin or jammed a thumb two knuckles deep in his eyes and ended it immediately.

Some thoughts on groin strikes from Cecil's youtube. Mentions eye gouges, biting, and some other stuff as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VlzRkBPkr_E

How many Jiu Jitsu places commonly do both gi and no-gi? I've been trying to work toward a schedule that will allow me to get into a Jiu Jitsu gym. I'm pretty sure it's a gi only gym, and I look forward to just learning the basics.

-Cory

perlslacker
06-03-2019, 09:04 PM
I look at this from a little different angle.

If I am forced to defend myself from a violent assault my objective is not to grab the bad guy and wrestle. It is to end his hostile actions as soon as possible and get away. This is best accomplished by attacking his eyes, throat or balls or by applying a healthy dose of blunt force trauma. Tansu is about using elbows, knees, head buts, finger breaking and a host of assorted nasties that are banned from the UFC and virtually all other forms of sport fighting, and for a very good reason. Nobody wants to get blinded or have their nose bitten off for sport.

Now, with that being said, should you learn to wrestle? Of course! You never know when you might get put on the deck but it should not be your main objective. Only wrestle long enough to hurt the bad guy. This is because most real fights involve other people and the last thing you want in a violent assault is to have both hands full of "bad guy A" trying to hold him down with your head at perfect punt level when you could have kicked him in the groin or jammed a thumb two knuckles deep in his eyes and ended it immediately.

where do people get the idea that BJJ, Muay Thai, and other "sportfighting" practitioners don't know how to bite or eye gouge?

how do you practice biting and eye gouging in an alive manner?

Tactical Black Belt
06-03-2019, 09:30 PM
how do you practice biting and eye gouging in an alive manner?

As far as biting, use a firm apple and bite it at a 45 degree angle using the deeply rooted canine teeth. The front teeth are more likely to get pulled loose if you or the opponent yanks away suddenly. Most of the damage is not done from the bite but from violent back and forth movement of the head just like dogs do when they bite. The big difference is that a human can only generate about fifty pounds of pressure so bites should be limited to fingers and soft targets like the ears, nose and soft fleshy parts of the face.

Eye gouging can be practiced on yourself if you are careful. You simply trap the head with one hand and place the tip of the thumb in either the inner or outer corner of the eye. With a bit of practice the eyes become very easy to find by touch alone. Of course if you are really being held down and assaulted you would forcefully burrow the thumb deep behind the eyeball using lots of vibrato.

Finger jabs to the eyes are usually practiced on a Styrofoam wig head but I will withhold the details of exactly how it is done because this is a public forum where some kid might read this and try it at school.

I don't want this to sound too caviler as these are serious techniques to be done in only the gravest circumstances.

Sal Picante
06-04-2019, 01:43 AM
How many Jiu Jitsu places commonly do both gi and no-gi? I've been trying to work toward a schedule that will allow me to get into a Jiu Jitsu gym. I'm pretty sure it's a gi only gym, and I look forward to just learning the basics.


There should be some good options for you up there...

We do 2 days no-gi, the rest gi. At an open roll, if someone is doing no-gi, they'll expect that you take off the jacket, or just ignore fabric "grips".

I'm broken, so I usually limit no-gi to once a week and at open roll as necessary for whomever is prepping for a no-gi comp.

pooty
06-04-2019, 04:52 AM
Tactical Black Belt

Could you tell us more about the art of Tansu? A google search yields only traditional Japanese locked chests.

45dotACP
06-04-2019, 08:23 AM
This subforum is awesome already.

My academy tends to split pretty evenly between Gi, No-Gi, and a combat Jiu Jitsu curriculum so we can pimp slap each other when rolling too. One reason I tend to like No-Gi a little more is that when I'm in a Gi, I tend to get a little more complacent about being in a bottom position, and I really shouldn't. In No-Gi, I'll try to be more aggressive with takedowns. Although I am working takedowns more in Gi lately and trying to work more throws instead of just the usual double leg or arm drag/ankle pick.

Re: eyepokes and nut shots...yeah I'd probably do them if I had to, but correct me if I'm wrong here...they would seem to me to be a "death or grievous bodily harm" situation...and not everyone can apply that level of force (e.g. bouncers, security guards, police officers) if they did for every use of force. BJJ and MMA can be escalated as the case requires.

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

Tactical Black Belt
06-04-2019, 09:13 AM
This subforum is awesome already

Re: eyepokes and nut shots...yeah I'd probably do them if I had to, but correct me if I'm wrong here...they would seem to me to be a "death or grievous bodily harm" situation...and not everyone can apply that level of force (e.g. bouncers, security guards, police officers) if they did for every use of force. BJJ and MMA can be escalated as the case requires.

Exactly. I worked as a bouncer for five years and my job was not to hurt people but to keep them from hurting each other.

Sal Picante
06-04-2019, 10:36 AM
This subforum is awesome already.

My academy tends to split pretty evenly between Gi, No-Gi, and a combat Jiu Jitsu curriculum so we can pimp slap each other when rolling too. One reason I tend to like No-Gi a little more is that when I'm in a Gi, I tend to get a little more complacent about being in a bottom position, and I really shouldn't. In No-Gi, I'll try to be more aggressive with takedowns. Although I am working takedowns more in Gi lately and trying to work more throws instead of just the usual double leg or arm drag/ankle pick.


Good point about the "lure of the guard position"... That said, I tend to find that being in the bottom position during no-gi is much more ephemeral - It is just too slippery of a game since top player doesn't really have much to hold on to you. That said, being mounted or in side control != playing bottom... More like, "you done kittened up..."



Re: eyepokes and nut shots...yeah I'd probably do them if I had to, but correct me if I'm wrong here...they would seem to me to be a "death or grievous bodily harm" situation...and not everyone can apply that level of force (e.g. bouncers, security guards, police officers) if they did for every use of force. BJJ and MMA can be escalated as the case requires.

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

Funny, right? Just like competitive shooting, you start to see these openings with regularity once you start seeing what BJJ is all about... Lol.

Maybe that Haueter guy was right about that "train sport, think street", eh?

Cecil Burch
06-04-2019, 11:43 AM
I cannot begin to count the number of times a "street fighter" who was insistent on using foul tactics as the answer to grappling failed miserably at doing it when rolling with a good grappler. Like the new cool ammo that was designed by a computer (like Rip) and is supposed to be so awesome but fails in the real world.

I say this from quite literally multiple decades of experience. This July will mark 40 years of active and continuous training to fight another human being. And more so, I am not talking about it from someone who has only done BJJ. I went through a long period where I was one of the main instructors under someone who was probably the most visible proponent of eye gouges, biting, groin strikes, etc. (in fact, I was one of his first 7 full instructors he ever certified). He even did a number of video instructionals that taught that concept, including how to train it. I put in decades - with zero exaggeration - of working this material, including in what we stupidly referred to "field testing", and the fact is that it does not work one bit when the other guy knows how to control the entanglement.

Disengaging and not getting entangled sounds great, but falls down in application because the other guy has a say in the matter.

I also find it hilarious, as one of the posters stated above, that the non-grapplers always think they are the only ones who know how to do that stuff. When you have dominant positional control, you get to do whatever you want, and it works.

Cecil Burch
06-04-2019, 11:45 AM
".

I'm broken, so I usually limit no-gi to once a week and at open roll as necessary for whomever is prepping for a no-gi comp.


That is probably a good plan for someone who is older, has pre-existing physical issues, and is not looking to do a ton on competitions.

Something like 2 days a week of gi, one day of no-gi, and maybe part of those days involve a few rounds of striking in play. If you only go two days a week, probably something like every other week, do one day of no-gi.

perlslacker
06-04-2019, 11:54 AM
RE: gis and shirts, I've seen collar chokes adapted to work with t-shirts in really nasty ways. You have to do more work to bunch the shirt up, but the payoff is better because it's thinner than a gi collar. It's like being strangled with an extension cord.


I also find it hilarious, as one of the posters stated above, that the non-grapplers always think they are the only ones who know how to do that stuff. When you have dominant positional control, you get to do whatever you want, and it works.

and note that when I asked how to train biting, eye gouging, etc in an "alive" manner he either didn't know what I meant or just ignored it.

Tactical Black Belt, I meant this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imjmLWj5WCU

Tactical Black Belt
06-04-2019, 10:01 PM
I want people to understand that I am not taking about an either/or position on "foul tactics" over grappling. I advocate both if you find yourself being man handled in a real criminal assault. A solid base is absolutely critical if you get put on the ground. Achieving and maintaining a dominant controlling position is equally vital. The "finish" is where we may part ways. Sure if he extends an arm, bar it. Or you find him wide open for a collar choke by all means take it. But the other side of the coin is that if he is open for a head butt or the point of your chin grinding into the eye socket, take that also. There are at least a dozen ways to bust a guard that would be an instant disqualification in the Octagon so almost nobody thinks about or trains these things anymore.

Real fighting is like the old children's game of rocks, paper and scissors. A solid fight ending punch requires forward and rotational momentum. This can be nullified by a good grappler who can tie you up and take away all of your power. The grappler in turn can be thwarted by a twisting groin grab or having a plug bitten out of his face. A biter and gouger can be kept at bay by a good puncher who knows how to maintain distance. It is not that any one of the six categories of attack are superior. Just like the rocks, paper and scissors they can all beat or be beaten by others.

The problem that I see with many of the current trained fighters is they are so focused on what the MMA guys do in the ring (because of its immense popularity) that they become oblivious to other possibilities that are outside their discipline.

pooty
06-05-2019, 03:24 AM
But the other side of the coin is that if he is open for a head butt or the point of your chin grinding into the eye socket, take that also. There are at least a dozen ways to bust a guard that would be an instant disqualification in the Octagon so almost nobody thinks about or trains these things anymore.

If you are inside the guard, how will you get leverage for a head butt if your waist and hips are being controlled?

GAP
06-05-2019, 08:21 AM
If you are inside the guard, how will you get leverage for a head butt if your waist and hips are being controlled?

That’s not even the issue if you try a head-butt from inside the guard. If you get that high up, where you can head-butt someone in the face, you will be swept immediately.

Elbows and knees are much more effective in nearly every circumstance.

For example, in MMA my hands are taped and wrapped to protect the small bones from breaking. In a “street fight” I am kicking the side of the legs from distance or I am grappling/kneeing/elbowing from the clinch. The only chance a random, untrained guy has is a haymaker knockout... so, don’t stand in that range.

EPF
06-05-2019, 11:28 AM
Great post. Timely for me as my gym recently changed one of my 4 regular weekly classes to no gi.

I love the new forum, and as a long time PF guy it seems entirely appropriate that the very first thread nearly instantly became a “sport will get you killed in da streetz” debate. :rolleyes:

LittleLebowski
06-05-2019, 11:33 AM
Great post. Timely for me as my gym recently changed one of my 4 regular weekly classes to no gi.

I love the new forum, and as a long time PF guy it seems entirely appropriate that the very first thread nearly instantly became a “sport will get you killed in da streetz” debate. :rolleyes:

I have confidence in my moderators to handle it :cool:

Cecil Burch
06-05-2019, 11:52 AM
Great post. Timely for me as my gym recently changed one of my 4 regular weekly classes to no gi.

I love the new forum, and as a long time PF guy it seems entirely appropriate that the very first thread nearly instantly became a “sport will get you killed in da streetz” debate. :rolleyes:


Except it is not a debate when a single person is trying to argue but cannot answer any of the points that contradict his position, which is typical of the "street fighters".

Zincwarrior
06-05-2019, 12:52 PM
Great post. Timely for me as my gym recently changed one of my 4 regular weekly classes to no gi.

I love the new forum, and as a long time PF guy it seems entirely appropriate that the very first thread nearly instantly became a “sport will get you killed in da streetz” debate. :rolleyes:

Then this forum is doing it right!

LittleLebowski
06-05-2019, 01:14 PM
Except it is not a debate when a single person is trying to argue but cannot answer any of the points that contradict his position, which is typical of the "street fighters".

It's the eternal cop-out.

"That wouldn't work on the street."
"OK, show me."
"I can't, I'd kill you."
"OK, tell me about your fighting record."
"I can't, it was all on THE STREETS."
"Which streets?"
"I can't tell you."
"OK, so how do you measure performance?"
"By biting and gouging on the THE STREETS."
"Which streets?"
"I can't tell you."

And so on...

Mitch
06-05-2019, 01:45 PM
It demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of how to work in a position or even fight.

If someone is in dominate position and your response is eye gouge/groin grab/whatever other “dirty trick” then congratulations, you just handed someone in a superior position one of your limbs, and oh by the way, now they’re pissed. You didn’t protect your head or neck or arms, you didn’t create a frame or space to adjust to a better position, and now to borrow a phrase from a friend of mine, you’re proper fucked.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

runcible
06-06-2019, 03:42 PM
Here is a little secret that I probably should not disseminate on line though we have taught it for years. A round combination lock with the one finger looped through the hasp makes a devastating one finger brass knuckle. It is more effective than the traditional variety as all the force is concentrated on one striking surface rather than spread out over four. The best thing is locks are legal practically everywhere and nobody will think of it as a weapon. The trick is to find one that fits your hand and practice hitting the heavy bag with it until it feels natural otherwise you could injure your hand. and PLEASE, if Heaven forbid you do have to hit someone with it, stay off the cranium if at all possible because this can cause a serious skull fracture and might kill the person.

A padlock carried outside of traditional contexts will most definitely attract additional attention, both CONUS and OCONUS. Screwdrivers and newspapers are fairly legal as well; but out of traditional contexts and\or in other specific contexts they will attract additional scrutiny.


I look at this from a little different angle.

If I am forced to defend myself from a violent assault my objective is not to grab the bad guy and wrestle. It is to end his hostile actions as soon as possible and get away. This is best accomplished by attacking his eyes, throat or balls or by applying a healthy dose of blunt force trauma. Tansu is about using elbows, knees, head buts, finger breaking and a host of assorted nasties that are banned from the UFC and virtually all other forms of sport fighting, and for a very good reason. Nobody wants to get blinded or have their nose bitten off for sport.

Now, with that being said, should you learn to wrestle? Of course! You never know when you might get put on the deck but it should not be your main objective. Only wrestle long enough to hurt the bad guy. This is because most real fights involve other people and the last thing you want in a violent assault is to have both hands full of "bad guy A" trying to hold him down with your head at perfect punt level when you could have kicked him in the groin or jammed a thumb two knuckles deep in his eyes and ended it immediately.


how do you practice biting and eye gouging in an alive manner?

As far as biting, use a firm apple and bite it at a 45 degree angle using the deeply rooted canine teeth. The front teeth are more likely to get pulled loose if you or the opponent yanks away suddenly. Most of the damage is not done from the bite but from violent back and forth movement of the head just like dogs do when they bite. The big difference is that a human can only generate about fifty pounds of pressure so bites should be limited to fingers and soft targets like the ears, nose and soft fleshy parts of the face.

Eye gouging can be practiced on yourself if you are careful. You simply trap the head with one hand and place the tip of the thumb in either the inner or outer corner of the eye. With a bit of practice the eyes become very easy to find by touch alone. Of course if you are really being held down and assaulted you would forcefully burrow the thumb deep behind the eyeball using lots of vibrato.

Finger jabs to the eyes are usually practiced on a Styrofoam wig head but I will withhold the details of exactly how it is done because this is a public forum where some kid might read this and try it at school.

I don't want this to sound too caviler as these are serious techniques to be done in only the gravest circumstances.

My personal experience with things that legitimately shouldn't be spoken of outside of school, is that they aren't spoken of. Talking about how you shouldn't be talking about something seems gauche and foppish.

I'm surprised that you describe it as initially difficult to locate your own eyes during self-practice of the eye-gouge, but am happy for your improvement in the skill.

It just doesn't seem a good trade to occupy one or both hands (as you describe above, re: gouging) with dirty pool of questionable efficacy, while your opponent's hands roam free.

How many apples must be consumed and to what standard, in order to demonstrate sufficient proficiency with these close cannibal concepts?

It seems that if ball-kicks, eye-gouges, and cannibalism were the high-percentage of success options as presented, they'd be in service with the criminal element already. More so, as presented, it seems as if you yourself would be defenseless against them if your opponent used them against you first.


I want people to understand that I am not taking about an either/or position on "foul tactics" over grappling. I advocate both if you find yourself being man handled in a real criminal assault. A solid base is absolutely critical if you get put on the ground. Achieving and maintaining a dominant controlling position is equally vital. The "finish" is where we may part ways. Sure if he extends an arm, bar it. Or you find him wide open for a collar choke by all means take it. But the other side of the coin is that if he is open for a head butt or the point of your chin grinding into the eye socket, take that also. There are at least a dozen ways to bust a guard that would be an instant disqualification in the Octagon so almost nobody thinks about or trains these things anymore.

Real fighting is like the old children's game of rocks, paper and scissors. A solid fight ending punch requires forward and rotational momentum. This can be nullified by a good grappler who can tie you up and take away all of your power. The grappler in turn can be thwarted by a twisting groin grab or having a plug bitten out of his face. A biter and gouger can be kept at bay by a good puncher who knows how to maintain distance. It is not that any one of the six categories of attack are superior. Just like the rocks, paper and scissors they can all beat or be beaten by others.

The problem that I see with many of the current trained fighters is they are so focused on what the MMA guys do in the ring (because of its immense popularity) that they become oblivious to other possibilities that are outside their discipline.

If these dozen "ways to bust a guard" haven't been thought of before, then how are they already banned? Could you list these unforgivable guard breaks, please?

The MMA world has given immensely to the combatives realm, and has swept a tremendous amount of incestuous martial garbage off of the table. While there are specific adaptations and advantages to material outside of the ring, you're not describing any of those that I'm aware of. Rather, it sounds like you're talking down to them because of their skill and training, which seems anti-intellectual and unhelpful.

With no ire, I read your comments as being those of someone whom has thought deeply on different subjects, perhaps even more deeply than most; but you have neither presented it to a skeptical audience nor to "the other side." This is something that all curricula developers need to keep themselves honest, and it is tremendously rewarding for the risk given in trade.

LittleLebowski
06-06-2019, 04:17 PM
A padlock carried outside of traditional contexts will most definitely attract additional attention, both CONUS and OCONUS. Screwdrivers and newspapers are fairly legal as well; but out of traditional contexts and\or in other specific contexts they will attract additional scrutiny.





My personal experience with things that legitimately shouldn't be spoken of outside of school, is that they aren't spoken of. Talking about how you shouldn't be talking about something seems gauche and foppish.

I'm surprised that you describe it as initially difficult to locate your own eyes during self-practice of the eye-gouge, but am happy for your improvement in the skill.

It just doesn't seem a good trade to occupy one or both hands (as you describe above, re: gouging) with dirty pool of questionable efficacy, while your opponent's hands roam free.

How many apples must be consumed and to what standard, in order to demonstrate sufficient proficiency with these close cannibal concepts?

It seems that if ball-kicks, eye-gouges, and cannibalism were the high-percentage of success options as presented, they'd be in service with the criminal element already. More so, as presented, it seems as if you yourself would be defenseless against them if your opponent used them against you first.



If these dozen "ways to bust a guard" haven't been thought of before, then how are they already banned? Could you list these unforgivable guard breaks, please?

The MMA world has given immensely to the combatives realm, and has swept a tremendous amount of incestuous martial garbage off of the table. While there are specific adaptations and advantages to material outside of the ring, you're not describing any of those that I'm aware of. Rather, it sounds like you're talking down to them because of their skill and training, which seems anti-intellectual and unhelpful.

With no ire, I read your comments as being those of someone whom has thought deeply on different subjects, perhaps even more deeply than most; but you have neither presented it to a skeptical audience nor to "the other side." This is something that all curricula developers need to keep themselves honest, and it is tremendously rewarding for the risk given in trade.

Excellent post, thank you for contributing.

SouthNarc
06-06-2019, 08:02 PM
Excellent post, thank you for contributing.

Runcible is old school and knows that of which he speaks. He’s also willing to do the heavy lifting for old guys who don’t give a fuck and wouldn’t be as nice. It’s important to be nice.

LittleLebowski
06-06-2019, 08:25 PM
Runcible is old school and knows that of which he speaks. He’s also willing to do the heavy lifting for old guys who don’t give a fuck and wouldn’t be as nice. It’s important to be nice.

You don’t have to be nice :cool:

JJN
06-07-2019, 07:21 AM
I have come up with an axiom. The kind of people who plan on biting as a strategy aren't usually the kind of people with enough surplus gas to devote their mouth to biting rather than breathing.

Cecil Burch
06-07-2019, 11:50 AM
I have come up with an axiom. The kind of people who plan on biting as a strategy aren't usually the kind of people with enough surplus gas to devote their mouth to biting rather than breathing.

so damned true.

They are the same people who would screech at myself and Craig and Paul that "if we tried that wrasslin' stuff on them, I will just shoot you" but never had the physical conditioning to be in a fight and never had the physical skill to keep us from doing what we wanted.

And most importantly, they are NEVER the ones who are willing to test their theories out when they have the opportunity.

txdpd
06-08-2019, 02:32 AM
I haven’t seen it all, but IME the type that is most likely to persist in physical fight or commit a spontaneous assault is going to be high on crack, meth, pcp, k2, etc. Drunks usually run their mouths and work their way up to fighting, there’s usually a window of opportunity theirs to break things off.

A lot of them end up shirtless or naked. Whether they get hot and strip down or their clothes get ripped off in a fight, it turns into wrestling a greased pig.

One thing about people that put crack, meth, pcp, etc in their bodies is that they don’t care about what they put in their bodies. Whether it’s unprotected sex with prostitutes or as prostitutes, sex with other drug addicts or sharing needles, they don’t care. There are immediate needs for survival and long term consequences, if you can avoid exposure to the bodily fluids of the people that’ll attack you on the streets, it’s a good idea. You got bite one of them, do it. Be mindful that you’re getting blood in your mouth and likely in you nose and eyes, that’s not good.

TheNewbie
06-08-2019, 02:48 AM
I haven’t seen it all, but IME the type that is most likely to persist in physical fight or commit a spontaneous assault is going to be high on crack, meth, pcp, k2, etc. Drunks usually run their mouths and work their way up to fighting, there’s usually a window of opportunity theirs to break things off.

A lot of them end up shirtless or naked. Whether they get hot and strip down or their clothes get ripped off in a fight, it turns into wrestling a greased pig.

One thing about people that put crack, meth, pcp, etc in their bodies is that they don’t care about what they put in their bodies. Whether it’s unprotected sex with prostitutes or as prostitutes, sex with other drug addicts or sharing needles, they don’t care. There are immediate needs for survival and long term consequences, if you can avoid exposure to the bodily fluids of the people that’ll attack you on the streets, it’s a good idea. You got bite one of them, do it. Be mindful that you’re getting blood in your mouth and likely in you nose and eyes, that’s not good.


Wise statement. Getting a blood test done to make sure you don't have the nasty is not fun.


Between hiv, hep c, staph, herpes gladiatorum, etc, there are multiple reasons to avoid as much physical contact as is possible.



I ran out of gas during an in class fight once. My opponent and I were evenly matched until I ran out of gas. We stopped after I told him I was going to puke if we didn't.

Cheap Shot
06-08-2019, 07:32 AM
https://www.grapplearts.com/dirty-fighting-in-grappling/

Stephen Kesting did a short podcast on this topic that I thought made the same compelling points Cecil, Craig, Larry L and Paul have taught over the years.

Hope its helpful to someone else thats just starting their journey

Chain
06-08-2019, 10:04 AM
Cecil, the point about fighting for top even in gi is a great one that I will try to remember. Beyond position, are there any techniques that translate particularly well across gi and no gi?

Totem Polar
06-08-2019, 11:39 AM
https://www.grapplearts.com/dirty-fighting-in-grappling/

Stephen Kesting did a short podcast on this topic that I thought made the same compelling points Cecil, Craig, Larry L and Paul have taught over the years.

Hope its helpful to someone else thats just starting their journey

I liked that, thanks. His comments on the delivery system vs ‘dirty techniques’ sure sound familiar. As an aside, I found Kestings "BJJ roadmap" app to be super useful as a framework to keep in mind while getting my newbie ass squashed flat by blue belts and young, competition-expereinced white belts. Having a larger framework and position hierarchy to use as a rough guide most def keeps BJJ from being just a miasma of arms, legs, and successful collar chokes applied against me. Probably way too basic for the average P-F BJJ player reading this sub fora, but if you have no background, I recommend the app unreservedly, if for no other reason than as a tool to keep from going blind/spasing in the first 6 months. Take that recommendation for what it’s worth, from a guy with very little experience.

(Gotta love the "red shirt" rash guard in that vid; what a geek...)

Balisong
06-08-2019, 11:45 AM
I liked that, thanks. His comments on the delivery system vs ‘dirty techniques’ sure sound familiar. As an aside, I found Kestings "BJJ roadmap" app to be super useful as a framework to keep in mind while getting my newbie ass squashed flat by blue belts and young, competition-expereinced white belts. Having a larger framework and position hierarchy to use as a rough guide most def keeps BJJ from being just a miasma of arms, legs, and successful collar chokes applied against me. Probably way too basic for the average P-F BJJ player reading this sub fora, but if you have no background, I recommend the app unreservedly, if for no other reason than as a tool to keep from going blind/spasing in the first 6 months. Take that recommendation for what it’s worth, from a guy with very little experience.

(Gotta love the "red shirt" rash guard in that vid; what a geek...)

I'm hoping to start BJJ in the next month or so when I get back to day shift. I'll look into that app, thanks

Totem Polar
06-08-2019, 12:42 PM
I'm hoping to start BJJ in the next month or so when I get back to day shift. I'll look into that app, thanks

Having an overarching set of steps to take in the back of your mind, and then flailing about in trial and error on the details with 240lbs on top of you is light years away from having no clue, and just flailing about in trial and error with 240lbs on top of you. It’s the difference between occasionally tapping a blue belt 4-6 months in when they make a mistake (which they still do, at that level, even if they normal toss you like a cat with a piece of string) and just spending 6 months nursing your ribs. Again, just my opinion and experience as a beginner in a club where I was one of the only total newbies. The place in my town is *heavily* competition-biased, and filled with young people with 2-10years of competing under their belts. Tough row to hoe without doing theory work outside of class. Again, grain of salt; I’m no Cecil. Just offering a beginner’s perspective, to be taken as such and corrected if need be.

Mitch
06-08-2019, 12:44 PM
Cecil, the point about fighting for top even in gi is a great one that I will try to remember. Beyond position, are there any techniques that translate particularly well across gi and no gi?

Anything using overhooks or underhooks works pretty well in either situation. Closed guard with an overhook, butterfly with an underhook, etc.

Establishing solid back control is always a good idea.


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perlslacker
06-08-2019, 05:58 PM
I'm switching to "gi agnostic" grips, even rolling gi, because my fingers are starting to look like anal beads. I'm in my early 30s and I'm already getting arthritis in my fingers.

Like, I'm sure there's a self-defense reason for it too, but that's not my primary motivation.

Totem Polar
06-08-2019, 06:36 PM
I'm switching to "gi agnostic" grips, even rolling gi, because my fingers are starting to look like anal beads. I'm in my early 30s and I'm already getting arthritis in my fingers.

Like, I'm sure there's a self-defense reason for it too, but that's not my primary motivation.


"That’s a good plan, man!"

http://wbbjj.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/kurt.jpg

Cheap Shot
06-08-2019, 09:51 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfu7YRjd86Y

I'm beating a dead horse but link above is some Canadian doods thoughts on "Which Martial Art is King of the Streets?".

GAP
06-09-2019, 07:50 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfu7YRjd86Y

I'm beating a dead horse but link above is some Canadian doods thoughts on "Which Martial Art is King of the Streets?".

He’s not just “some Canadian dude.” He’s one of the best MMA coaches in the world.

Shorikid
06-09-2019, 08:48 AM
Now, I'm no one special. I'm the breathing grappling dummy for a purple belt out of a good gym and a guy with a lot of time striking, and a tiny bit of wrestling. I'm not LE, MIL, alphabet agency or anything.

On GI/no-gi: As a guy who has been athletic and loved competing in things, I can see the physical attributes leaving me and I get home much they matter in no-gi. There is a time for dinner of it, but I feel like gi work makes me pay more attention and have to keep my head about me more than no-gi. We have contemplated a tee shirt and jeans nights on the mats. It is a throw away the shirt night and we don't want to damage our mats with the brads on the jeans. Anyone played that game to see what happens?

On cheap shots/dirty tactics:. I am a traditional ma guy. Groin shots, eye attacks have always been there. And they have a context to them a lot of schools breeze right past. They aren't fight stoppers. They are a tactic to create a reaction and buy time. Just like BJJ techniques, if applied out of context they can land you in a worse position than you started in. Biting, there is no really good way to train. Eye gouges, if you can touch your partner's forehead, you could have gotten the gouge. If you can grab a belt or inner thigh/pant leg, you reach the groin. You need to be in a position of control to do those things though.

And the ability to grapple, especially on the feet is where you get that control.

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Chain
06-09-2019, 02:54 PM
They aren't fight stoppers. They are a tactic to create a reaction and buy time.

Instructor at an Insights class had an anecdote about sticking a thumb in someone's eye, something along the lines of "It wasn't a fight stopper but it definitely was a fight pauser...." :o

Cecil Burch
06-10-2019, 12:49 PM
Cecil, the point about fighting for top even in gi is a great one that I will try to remember. Beyond position, are there any techniques that translate particularly well across gi and no gi?

The fundamental hook and tie game - wrist, elbow, under, over : plus armdrags, duckunders, 2on1s,

Head and elbow position becomes paramount

Kimuras and americanas (the only issue with americanas is that your top control has to be really tight. it is one of my main subs, but a lot of people never get them because they allow the guy on bottom to move too much

Guillotines, RNC, D'arce chokes

leg attacks - but be EXTREMELY careful about relying on them if self-defense is your primary goal. Having both your arms tied up with hsi legs while his arms are totally free is not a great idea in a weapons based environment

That is probably it for consistently available attacks in both realms

ford.304
06-18-2019, 11:52 AM
I was just about to ask about the leg game. The metagame for no-gi has gone heavily in that direction recently, and it has been shown to be effective in MMA, at least. But when the guy can pull out a knife and start stabbing your leg while you wreck his knee... sounds like you could easily end in a no-win scenario.

Personally I enjoy no-gi more because it forces people to control from pressure, wedges, and balance instead of using their grips as a crutch. But I'm just a blue belt, I'll freely admit I don't know anything, and I'm also probably taking some advantage of the youth and athleticism you mentioned before (although I don't have *that* much of either of those, heh).

When you train gi, do you train the full complement of leglocks or do you limit yourself to the IBJJF Gracie-approved stuff? I've found that most people automatically fall into sort of standard competition rules when training. At least enough that I feel like a jerk if I surprise someone with a heel hook in gi. So that is at least part of why I like to train both, if I want to learn the modern leglock game. I hate the idea of giving up top position to chase someone's legs, but using it as an efficient threat from guard fits right into fundamental concepts of BJJ.

Cecil Burch
06-18-2019, 12:22 PM
When you train gi, do you train the full complement of leglocks or do you limit yourself to the IBJJF Gracie-approved stuff? I've found that most people automatically fall into sort of standard competition rules when training. At least enough that I feel like a jerk if I surprise someone with a heel hook in gi. So that is at least part of why I like to train both, if I want to learn the modern leglock game. I hate the idea of giving up top position to chase someone's legs, but using it as an efficient threat from guard fits right into fundamental concepts of BJJ.


I think leglocks should be part of the game, but I am not a fan of heel hooks regardless. I think it is fine to simulate those attacks and set them up and maybe even start the gripping process, but not actually doing it. The fact is that heel hooks are incredibly dangerous. I know what all the hot shot guys in no-gi are saying, but before we take their word as gospel, look at them. They are all young and fit athletes in their prime. It is very easy for them to say "heel hooks are not that dangerous, they don't do that much damage" when their bodies are young enough to be resilient. I want to see how they move in 15 or 20 years. Being about to turn 55, and having done BJJ for 30 years, I can tell you that you can get away with a lot of hardcore stuff in your 20's and 30's that WILL come back to bite you in the ass when you move north of 40.

I think they should be worked and understood, especially the way the Danaher Death Squad is integrating them, but the twisting attacks need to be carefully done and monitored and not taken for granted.

ford.304
06-18-2019, 12:35 PM
For what it's worth, I agree with you 100%. I love leg attacks, love the Danaher-style system of "leg entanglements as control" the same way as the rest of Jiu Jitsu -- but I will admit that I am terrified of actually competing in anything serious that allows heel hooks.

I was taught to always be ready to release when attacking, to never crank quickly, and to tap as soon as the guy has his grips set. I've been through one ACL surgery already before I started BJJ, I don't need another.

Although I wish that people would treat shoulder locks with some of the same care they do leglocks. Yeah, you've got more feedback to make you tap, but a torn rotator cuff scares me every bit as much as a blown ligament.

It's very odd thinking about this stuff in a self-defense context. I'm pretty sure that RNCing someone has more direct legal implications than blowing up his knee, but...ew, I know which I'd rather do to someone if I got to choose.

Shorikid
06-20-2019, 07:08 AM
For what it's worth, I agree with you 100%. I love leg attacks, love the Danaher-style system of "leg entanglements as control" the same way as the rest of Jiu Jitsu -- but I will admit that I am terrified of actually competing in anything serious that allows heel hooks.

I was taught to always be ready to release when attacking, to never crank quickly, and to tap as soon as the guy has his grips set. I've been through one ACL surgery already before I started BJJ, I don't need another.

Although I wish that people would treat shoulder locks with some of the same care they do leglocks. Yeah, you've got more feedback to make you tap, but a torn rotator cuff scares me every bit as much as a blown ligament.

It's very odd thinking about this stuff in a self-defense context. I'm pretty sure that RNCing someone has more direct legal implications than blowing up his knee, but...ew, I know which I'd rather do to someone if I got to choose.Keep in mind the context I'm coming from regarding leg locks. I'm a white belt, in that I learn from my brother who is a 1 stripe purple from a solid school. I have been defending and learning foot locks/leg attacks since he was a new blue belt. He has used them freely on all rank levels since that time in his gym. Plenty of their folks compete, plenty are employed for security at federal power facilities, and they have a good number of pro mma fighters at all levels of the game. So, they are not a strict competition or self defense school.

Touching on the legality of ripping a knee or an RNC, I'll disagree there. A potentially life altering injury, needing surgery, often multiples, to repair vs. a choke that barring death is without I'll effects 10 minutes after it is applied.

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ford.304
06-20-2019, 08:06 AM
Touching on the legality of ripping a knee or an RNC, I'll disagree there. A potentially life altering injury, needing surgery, often multiples, to repair vs. a choke that barring death is without I'll effects 10 minutes after it is applied.

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I mean, barstool lawyering here, but while both threaten death or grievous bodily injury, some states have added explicit felony escalations for strangling. These are generally aimed at domestic violence incidents, but still apply generally.

Chokes are such a weird middle ground... where if they're being applied to you by someone with ill intent, they're equivalent to being shot in the face in terms of threat levels. But if they're being applied by a "good guy" they're safer than a taser...

Shorikid
06-20-2019, 08:13 AM
I mean, barstool lawyering here, but while both threaten death or grievous bodily injury, some states have added explicit felony escalations for strangling. These are generally aimed at domestic violence incidents, but still apply generally.

Chokes are such a weird middle ground... where if they're being applied to you by someone with ill intent, they're equivalent to being shot in the face in terms of threat levels. But if they're being applied by a "good guy" they're safer than a taser...I only practice bar stool law after 3 drinks. Seriously though, I understand that. This is a point where articulation of your use of force becomes important, just like when weapons are employed. It also would be beneficial to have a coach/professor that is willing and able to clearly explain how the RNC works and why it is safe to employ in SD verse a bear handed grab to the throat those strangulation laws are aimed at.
Edit: Also being aware of local laws, especially your native law or the locations you are frequently in, is very important here.

Side note, if you want a constant migraine, travel through 14 states in about as many days, with frequent stops while ccw-ing and try to keep the laws straight.

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No.6
12-26-2019, 01:50 AM
The instructor is far more more important than the choice of clothing.

Tyriasis
01-20-2020, 05:43 AM
The instructor is far more more important than the choice of clothing.

True, anything is an improvement over no training and the right instructor is vastly more effective than the slight advantages/disadvantages of any one style.