Actual 911 call of home invasion [Archive]

Cypher

05-31-2019, 03:10 AM

There's two things that occur to to me. The first is if two people invade my home and I shoot the first and the second doesn't leave immediately I think that's when I'm really in trouble. Because he knows I shot his buddy and it wasn't enough to drive him from the house that means I would think he's coming for me.

The second thing is I would be scared to death to disarm and then walked through that house knowing that there might still be somebody in there. I mean I know there wasn't but I think I would have stayed in the closet until the cops got to the room.

ETA

After reading the accompanying article I'm very curious to know if the home Invader was a "homeless transient" because that's kind of the impression I got from the article.

Since marijuana was legalized Colorado Springs has become overrun with homeless people, they are everywhere.

My current assignment is relatively safe. I'm locked behind an 8 foot fence my entire shift but before I had this assignment I had to deal with homeless people all night long every night and I learned some things from the experience.

I have never met a homeless person that wasn't armed with something. The last few months they've been catching homeless people breaking into people's cars and stealing guns.

I've also never met a homeless person who hasn't been involved in multiple violent encounters. The homeless population of Colorado Springs is a very violent subculture. They attack each other all the time and it never makes the news because they're homeless. I suspect the powers that be don't want it to become known how bad the problem is. Based on my past experience if I do have to deal with a homeless person at work I keep my distance and I never ever turn my back on them.

As I said I don't have any direct contact now but I watch them ride their bikes up and down the street outside my fence all night long. They'll leave with little empty trailers on the back of their bikes and come back in an hour or so later and those trailers are full.

Alpha Sierra

05-31-2019, 04:23 AM

The last thing I'm going to do in a home invasion is go hide in a closet. My living situation means that such a course of action abandons my wife and child to the intruders. I will do the exact opposite. Not bravado. Just a statement of facts.

As for the guy who won't leave after having his partner smoked, well he should know he's next immediately.

Cypher

05-31-2019, 05:05 AM

It's better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

Alpha Sierra

05-31-2019, 06:21 AM

It's better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.
Where do you prefer to hide, in the closet or under the bed?

RoyGBiv

05-31-2019, 08:26 AM

Absolutely not way I'm disarming and walking past a downed but not dead intruder, through an uncleared house.

Robinson

05-31-2019, 08:34 AM

I don't know how to judge the police response in this case, but I will say it was not nearly as fast as the police response to a home invasion that occurred at the house behind ours a few years back. In that case, officers and and a police helicopter appeared at the scene within a few short minutes. Quite a contrast, but I don't know which is more typical.

The last thing I'm going to do in a home invasion is go hide in a closet. My living situation means that such a course of action abandons my wife and child to the intruders. I will do the exact opposite.

If there are people in the home that you need to protect, then of course defending them should be the first priority.

I don't normally rush to criticize people who have had such an encounter, but in the case being discussed I'm pretty sure I would have yelled to the intruder to get the hell out of my house, let them know I'm armed and police are on the way. If I was alone and decided for whatever reason not to confront the person, I wouldn't be hiding -- I'd try to convince them it was in their best interest to leave immediately.

And disarming to walk back through the house doesn't seem like a smart thing to do, but it brings up interesting questions about the inevitable interaction with responding officers.

blues

05-31-2019, 08:51 AM

Absolutely not way I'm disarming and walking past a downed but not dead intruder, through an uncleared house.

^^^^This^^^^

And no way I'm disarming, if LE has not made entry, until I know I'm clear and about to exit the home to place myself in the custody of the deputies.

Good recording to give folks an idea of just how long it takes for help to arrive, and when it does, it may still depend upon oneself to safely exit the premises.

TGS

05-31-2019, 09:37 AM

I don't normally rush to criticize people who have had such an encounter, but in the case being discussed I'm pretty sure I would have yelled to the intruder to get the hell out of my house, let them know I'm armed and police are on the way. If I was alone and decided for whatever reason not to confront the person, I wouldn't be hiding -- I'd try to convince them it was in their best interest to leave immediately.

I think you're on the right track, but people tend to fall back on their training; in the case of most Americans, their training is to be submissive and non-confrontational. Law-abiding Americans who haven't been in a fist-fight before are very, very passive people in actual incidents. Most people don't even have the internal fortitude to get involved with a car accident or some other medical incident. Even most brand new EMTs and most brand-new LEOs have to re-learn behaviors and get comfortable talking to people, giving commands, and putting their hands on people as it's counter to everything we've been taught since a young age.

Obviously he wasn't submissive when it came time to do some shooting, but there's a reason that Craig has people walk around yelling at each other in ECQC during that first 4 hour Friday night session, and there's a reason that drill sergeants practice yelling at trees. Being overtly aggressive and announcing your presence, yelling at a stranger, and giving commands is not something that most people are comfortable doing....so when in an actual stressful life or death situation, I'm going to guess that most people are going to do the same thing he did.

IMO.

alex

05-31-2019, 11:55 AM

Unload and disarm yourself. Unreal.

Alpha Sierra

05-31-2019, 12:11 PM

Unload and disarm yourself. Unreal.
I seriously doubt a dispatcher on the phone has the legal authority to order you to do anything. And even if they do, the line can go dead at any time.

Totem Polar

05-31-2019, 03:43 PM

In all, I think that joe regular dude did pretty well with a really bad scenario not of his making.

I think LE response time was pretty marginal, especially for an invasion in progress call in a major urban area (I am familiar with that part of west Seattle; it can be a bit sketchy). But I am not in the business there, and I don’t know what sort of ongoing issues the department has to deal with.

As to "unload and secure," not until I *know* that I’m safe, agreed.

JMO, OMMV, etc.

idahojess

05-31-2019, 07:38 PM

White Center is unincorporated (hence the Sheriff's response, rather than SPD), so it's probably not as well covered police wise as everything around it. I think it's slowly getting gobbled up by the cities around it.

Robinson

05-31-2019, 10:34 PM

A bit off topic, but I also find it interesting that the homeowner seemed to be able to hear just fine after firing multiple shots. He had no trouble understanding the 911 operator over the phone.

Drang

05-31-2019, 10:57 PM

"WHITE CENTER, Wash. -- Deputies are investigating a reported burglary and fatal shooting that happened early Monday morning."

I always thought White Center (Common description: "White Center, which is neither") was part of Seattle. Evidently it is unincorporated, which would explain the King County Sheriff responding, and maybe the fucked up 911 dispatcher...

sharps54

06-01-2019, 06:38 AM

I always thought White Center (Common description: "White Center, which is neither") was part of Seattle. Evidently it is unincorporated, which would explain the King County Sheriff responding, and maybe the fucked up 911 dispatcher...

What is your complaint about the dispatcher? Every protocol I’ve ever seen has the homeowner putting the weapon down before they interact with the responding officers. The reason she had him unload it and put the rounds in his pocket was to make sure the downed prep didn’t have access to a loaded gun after the homeowner went downstairs. The only possible variation I could see would be having the homeowner down the weapon after he was downstairs and before he opened the door.

Alpha Sierra

06-01-2019, 06:54 AM

What is your complaint about the dispatcher? Every protocol I’ve ever seen has the homeowner putting the weapon down before they interact with the responding officers. The reason she had him unload it and put the rounds in his pocket was to make sure the downed prep didn’t have access to a loaded gun after the homeowner went downstairs. The only possible variation I could see would be having the homeowner down the weapon after he was downstairs and before he opened the door.
It's not the place of someone who isn't there to tell someone who IS there when and how to disarm.

sharps54

06-01-2019, 07:09 AM

It's not the place of someone who isn't there to tell someone who IS there when and how to disarm.

So you’d have the homeowner walk out the front door with his weapon? How’s that going to turn out with officers that are already amped up knowing shots have been fired? She did her job, followed her protocols, and was looking out for the safety of both her officers and the homeowner.

I’m not saying she did a perfect job, she should have gotten a description of the caller and the clothes he was wearing, but all in all your complaint has more to do with law enforcement protocols than that particular dispatcher.

Alpha Sierra

06-01-2019, 07:13 AM

So you’d have the homeowner walk out the front door with his weapon?
Show me where I said that. Go ahead.

Or would you like to make up more strawmen?

sharps54

06-01-2019, 07:29 AM

Show me where I said that. Go ahead.

Or would you like to make up more strawmen?

I can play that game too. Show me where I said you said it. :rolleyes: How about we act like adults and not turn this forum into ARFCOM?

I was asking you a question not putting words in your mouth. At what point, in your opinion, should the homeowner put the weapon down before interacting with the officers? Keep in mind if the other perp left out a door it is possible officers may have already made entry into the house without notifying dispatch.

Really the main reason I posted was to put out that dispatchers have scripted protocols to follow which are designed to ensure the safety of the responding officers and the callers. Her instructing the caller to put the weapon down before meeting the officers is typical of those protocols. Having him unload it and take the ammo with him in case the downed perp is playing possum is actually a step beyond the protocols I’ve seen.

Alpha Sierra

06-01-2019, 08:56 AM

At what point, in your opinion, should the homeowner put the weapon down before interacting with the officers?
At whatever point the individual in the situation feels it's the right time. That's why the scripted protocol is a joke. Every situation is different.

If dispatchers want to remind the person on the other end to be sure to not display weapons when the cops show up, fine. Ordering someone to disarm, nope.

Do cops announce their presence when making entry, knowing there's an armed defender inside? If not, why not?

sharps54

06-01-2019, 09:24 AM

At whatever point the individual in the situation feels it's the right time. That's why the scripted protocol is a joke. Every situation is different.

If dispatchers want to remind the person on the other end to be sure to not display weapons when the cops show up, fine. Ordering someone to disarm, nope.

Do cops announce their presence when making entry, knowing there's an armed defender inside? If not, why not?

Understood, thanks for the clarification. I’ll let a sworn officer answer your last question.

Clusterfrack

06-01-2019, 10:03 AM

I'm late to this discussion. Interesting to listen to the audio of the encounter. The homeowner was obviously terrified, but still defended himself. Good job homeowner.

My own home invasion story happened around 1am when the invader set off our silent alarm. My very pregnant wife and I were in bed, and I could hear him rummaging around in the living room. I yelled something like "GTFO, I'm armed", and the guy fled with no shots fired, taking my wife's purse with him. Cops showed up maybe 20 min later.

idahojess

06-01-2019, 11:12 AM

From a mindset and tactics perspective I think announcing that you are present and armed and will defend yourself is generally the right choice. (Of course, circumstances could vary on that-- if you're being specifically targeted, maybe not).

Announcing may have prevented the guy from coming into the bedroom. Also, having a plan to how you will secure your gun, i.e. a holster that you can put on, before leaving the house, seems like it would have been a good step.

It also sounds like there was confusion as to what door he was exiting from. It sounded like the cops wanted him to come out from the east door, and he went out another (he obviously was understandably stressed out). Although it sounds obvious, not a bad idea to know in advance which direction your doors are facing (particularly for spouses, older kids). If he went out the door the cops didn't expect him to come out of, with a gun in his hand ...

Edited to add: Also, I believe he probably could have taken an opportunity to stop and tell the dispatcher what he was wearing, before he came out.

sharps54

06-01-2019, 11:35 AM

The caller did fine, he was having the worst day of his life. It was the dispatcher’s job to get his description and that is one of the few things I can find fault with listening to the call. Mind you it is easy to Monday morning quarterback a call like this so I don’t want to sound too judgmental.

NH Shooter

06-01-2019, 11:52 AM

I yelled something like "GTFO, I'm armed"...

That is 100% wired into my brain too. Mas advocates something along the lines "stop, don't make me shoot" as part of the verbal arsenal as well. Circumstances permitting, giving the intruder one last chance to leave with such a command is undoubtedly a wise thing to do, especially with an open line to 911.

Even though he was armed, this fellow did not seem very confident in his ability to defend himself. Good choice staying in the bedroom behind a locked door but I would much rather remain in a larger space (bedroom, not closet) to have some maneuvering room should the other uninvited guest decided to confront him.

Lester Polfus

06-01-2019, 05:16 PM

I was once at a training class that featured a mock home invasion in a shoot house and yelled "GET OUT OF MY HOUSE! DO IT NOW!" so loud I made the RO jump. I wonder if some verbal commands might have led to a better outcome for everybody, but breaking into someone's house at 0200 is big boy game, big boy rules.

I can nitpick all sorts of stuff, and always can, but I think the dispatcher made it work.

Twelve minutes is a long time. When my wife walked out and found the guy standing in the garage, our response time was more than double that.

ArgentFix

06-02-2019, 12:16 AM

A bit off topic, but I also find it interesting that the homeowner seemed to be able to hear just fine after firing multiple shots. He had no trouble understanding the 911 operator over the phone.

I'm curious about this too. What are the chances of damaging hearing to the point of being unable to communicate usefully over the phone or with LEOs?

Alpha Sierra

06-02-2019, 06:38 AM

I'm curious about this too. What are the chances of damaging hearing to the point of being unable to communicate usefully over the phone or with LEOs?

I'm just a layman with no medical knowledge. But I'm going to guess no.

We've had soldiers doing CQB in and around buildings since WW2 with no hearing protection until fairly recently. I think we would have known by now if people routinely lost their entire ability to hear due to gunfire inside rooms.

Hambo

06-02-2019, 08:08 AM

I'm curious about this too. What are the chances of damaging hearing to the point of being unable to communicate usefully over the phone or with LEOs?

It depends on what you're shooting. A Def-Tec 25 distraction device is about 175db. An unsuppressed 5.56mm is probably the same or close. Without ear pro both will leave your ears ringing. Even if you can communicate you're doing permanent damage at those decibels. Pistol rounds aren't nearly as bad.

okie john

06-02-2019, 08:34 AM

I spent about 25 years living a dozen or so miles north of there, and four years living about three miles south of there. The problems that the Seattle political machine has created slop over into the rest of King County and into other nearby jurisdictions with a vengance. The KCSD has to deal with a shitload of gang activity and drug-related idiocy in addition to all of the problems with homeless people. The town to the south of there, Burien, is supposed to have one of the highest rates of car theft in the nation.

One more example of our elected leaders crippling a good police department and letting a once-nice place to live turn into a complete shithole without the rule of law.

Okie John

Clusterfrack

06-02-2019, 09:10 AM

... shitload of gang activity and drug-related idiocy in addition to all of the problems with homeless people...

From what I hear from LEOs in that area, some of the homeless are now involved in gang-related crime. Bad situation...

Cypher

06-02-2019, 10:30 AM

It depends on what you're shooting. A Def-Tec 25 distraction device is about 175db. An unsuppressed 5.56mm is probably the same or close. Without ear pro both will leave your ears ringing. Even if you can communicate you're doing permanent damage at those decibels. Pistol rounds aren't nearly as bad.

The only thing I want to add to this is that even if pistol rounds aren't "nearly as bad" they are bad enough to cause permanent damage.

Hearing loss is cumulative and permanent. You will suffer permanent hearing loss to a greater or lesser degree from one exposure. 140db is the threshold for permanent damage a gunshot is around 160db anything you can reasonably do to mitigate that would be worthwhile.

Cypher

06-02-2019, 10:40 AM

A bit off topic, but I also find it interesting that the homeowner seemed to be able to hear just fine after firing multiple shots. He had no trouble understanding the 911 operator over the phone.

I was 13B in the Army and spent most of my career on 8 inch howitzers. I have permanent hearing loss but I was able to speak and hear fire commands during fire missions.

I was in a house when my roommate's girlfriend started shooting holes in our kitchen walls (she murdered our refrigerator with her first shot) and I don't recall and immediate loss of hearing

newt

06-02-2019, 10:56 AM

I was 13B in the Army and spent most of my career on 8 inch howitzers. I have permanent hearing loss but I was able to speak and hear fire commands during fire missions.

I was in a house when my roommate's girlfriend started shooting holes in our kitchen walls (she murdered our refrigerator with her first shot) and I don't recall and immediate loss of hearing

She seems.....nice. 😀

Cypher

06-02-2019, 11:11 AM

She seems.....nice. 😀

She was a fucking moonbat and her boyfriend wasn't much better. He was in the Florida National Guard and would bring home cases of MREs every month so he could spend his grocery money on booze. He was laying on the kitchen floor drunk when she got to the house, she started shooting because he wouldn't respond to her yelling.

I haven't seen either one of them in 35 years, I'm sure they've both drank themselves to death by now.

ETA Wow! I just looked him up on Facebeast and he's not only alive but he's apparently sober. Did not see that coming

Robinson

06-02-2019, 01:26 PM

I'm curious about this too. What are the chances of damaging hearing to the point of being unable to communicate usefully over the phone or with LEOs?

I think it depends somewhat on the person. Some rounds fired from a handgun to my left caused permanent hearing loss and tinnitus for me. And that was outdoors. If I am ever exposed to close gunshots without ear pro again it will probably leave my ears in terrible shape. People with healthy ears probably don't have quite as much to lose from a single incident as someone whose hearing is already greatly compromised.

ranger

06-02-2019, 01:39 PM

I'm just a layman with no medical knowledge. But I'm going to guess no.

We've had soldiers doing CQB in and around buildings since WW2 with no hearing protection until fairly recently. I think we would have known by now if people routinely lost their entire ability to hear due to gunfire inside rooms.

Every Infantry soldier I know has tinnitus and hearing loss. I suspect that they were not testing WW2 vets for hearing. I had to have a waiver signed by a GO to remain Infantry. There is a difference between having significant hearing loss and tinnitus and not being able to hear at all. In my case, I lost a lot of high frequency and my ears ring all the time.

JohnO

06-02-2019, 01:42 PM

I'm curious about this too. What are the chances of damaging hearing to the point of being unable to communicate usefully over the phone or with LEOs?

Research "Auditory Exclusion".

https://www.samatters.com/understanding-stress-part-6-auditory-exclusion/

The brain, in an effort to help you make sense of what is happening in a high-stress, high-consequence situation, can also filter out what it perceives to be noise – those sounds it determines to be unimportant. Sometimes this can be helpful. Other times it can be devastating.

How it effects each individual can be drastically different. Knowing what can happen in a high stress situation is important. I have read of cases where a person defending themselves with a firearm wrongly assumed their weapon was malfunctioning because they either didn't hear it or the volume perceived made them think the weapon malfunctioned. Much better to know this ahead of time rather than find out when the SHTF.

Alpha Sierra

06-02-2019, 01:47 PM

Every Infantry soldier I know has tinnitus and hearing loss. I suspect that they were not testing WW2 vets for hearing. I had to have a waiver signed by a GO to remain Infantry. There is a difference between having significant hearing loss and tinnitus and not being able to hear at all. In my case, I lost a lot of high frequency and my ears ring all the time.

Yes, I understand all that. I didn't think I needed to mention that shooting guns inside without protection would lead to damage. That's self evident.

The question was "would you lose hearing to the point of being unable to communicate". My take is that the answer would be no.

Hambo

06-03-2019, 06:23 AM

Research "Auditory Exclusion".

https://www.samatters.com/understanding-stress-part-6-auditory-exclusion/

How it effects each individual can be drastically different. Knowing what can happen in a high stress situation is important. I have read of cases where a person defending themselves with a firearm wrongly assumed their weapon was malfunctioning because they either didn't hear it or the volume perceived made them think the weapon malfunctioned. Much better to know this ahead of time rather than find out when the SHTF.

I've had it happen, but an audiologist advised me that just because your brain shut off the soundtrack doesn't mean you didn't do permanent damage.

Jeff22

06-07-2019, 01:45 AM

blues

06-07-2019, 08:38 AM

One thing to remember is that most cops and most dispatchers will go through their entire career without responding to a home invasion or an incident where a citizen lawfully uses deadly force to defend themselves . . . . you have to consider their unfamiliarity with the situation into your planning.

I have considered keeping a set of Howard Leight active hearing protectors in the bedroom. I think they might come in handy in a burglary or home invasion situation and you can buy them for $50 or so.

I have a set on both my and my wife's nightstands. (Hers in her little tupperware container with cell phone, flashlight, landline etc for her to take with her to her designated "safe" space, such as it is, where a firearm is available to her.

If I have time to put mine on, fine. Otherwise they do no harm where they are. (I also have a pair of shooting glasses there, just in case opportunity permits...which I doubt.)

Gray01

06-07-2019, 03:02 PM

I have a set on both my and my wife's nightstands. (Hers in her little tupperware container with cell phone, flashlight, landline etc for her to take with her to her designated "safe" space, such as it is, where a firearm is available to her.

If I have time to put mine on, fine. Otherwise they do no harm where they are. (I also have a pair of shooting glasses there, just in case opportunity permits...which I doubt.)

As above, and some of our layers also include: all windows are casement windows with substantial locks so ingress can only occur by breaking the glass; all entry doors are deadbolted/reinforced with additional Andersen deadbolted storm doors; the entire exterior and the ground floor interior are on cameras viewed from phone/tablet; living in an area whereby the probability is extremely low...