What was your "aha" or breakthrough moment? [Archive]

ASH556

05-24-2019, 03:29 PM

I've been a member of this site for 7 years now, and an active participant for at least 5.
5 years in and I've still not accomplished the following things:

1. Coin-level FAST runs on-demand from concealment
2. 100 on a 25yd B8
3. Turbo-pin level on Gabe's stuff (with our without concealment).
4. A sub-2.5 Bill Drill clean

Some here have said I am a good shooter. When I look at those I encounter at the range in the real world that seems to be the case by comparison.

Then again, I'm not hanging out with GM's all the time.

I hear a lot of talk about a lot of things. I see guys win awards. I've been in classes with some high level shooters, but 2 things stand out to me:

1. I don't see guys who can pull off the 4 examples (not a conclusive list, just my current list) I listed above on demand
2. I don't know how to get there either

Maybe the first 90% is easy and it's the last 10% that takes hours, and hours, and thousands and thousands of rounds. If that's the case, cool just tell me and I'll keep plugging away. However, if there's a magic switch that I'm missing somehow, someone have mercy and tell me what it is.

This is something karmapolice and I have talked about at great length and there seems to be this idea of this mystical level of ninja pistol performance, but can people really do that or did they just happen to do it once or twice at the right time in front of the right person or camera?

At the risk of excluding someone who should be on this list (so please forgive me) the guys on this site that I think probably can shoot at that level on-demand are, SLG, Mr_White, Kevin B. , DocGKR, Surf, GJM, Duke, nwhpfan. Interesting also to note how none of them really post anymore (GJM excluded) too.

Totem Polar

05-24-2019, 03:34 PM

That’s a challenging list of 4. There are a bunch of men who’ve shot an even bigger bunch of other men in the line of duty who probably couldn’t do all those runs on demand, either.

Duke

05-24-2019, 04:04 PM

Mr_White

05-24-2019, 04:10 PM

1. Generally, I can do that. That doesn't mean I never mess it up though.

2. I'm good for a ninety-something. I honestly don't remember if I've ever shot 100. It's certainly not my norm.

3. This one I can definitely say I can do successfully most of the time. In something like 16/18 classes, I've hit the overall Turbo threshold of at least 4/8 runs. Most of them are 5 or 6 out of 8. I've hit 7/8 a couple times. I haven't hit 8/8 yet.

4. I can do that pretty comfortably.

You already brought it up, but I think it really helps to at some point just shoot a lot for a long time. Like, have a year or two where you shoot basically as much as you can, whether that's 10 or 20k or whatever it is. Try to do it productively and with purpose of course. But at some point shooting a lot is probably necessary. And I don't know, maybe you've already done that.

I know for me, part of the challenge is to manage maintenance and improvement as motivation level changes over time. I haven't been posting as much for a few years as some things have changed around in life, and definitely the character of my interest in shooting wanders around to different aspects of the craft and related areas of study. I just haven't been on fire to shoot a bunch of drills and video them and pore over the numbers. That's ok, I still like to shoot and train - that hasn't changed.

You asked about ah ha moments. Mine was when I truly learned to shoot the sights, which is when I learned the visual focus shift. That opened the world (of fine detail in the sights in motion and thus precision at speed.) One certainly need not do that vision thing, but I think getting deeply in tune with seeing and driving your fine visual reference around is a big key to development. People get excited by different things over time, and the sights may not always be that exciting. But the time that you're excited about them is a very productive time of development. Im convinced that same excitement I found in extreme sight focused shooting is found by others in target focused shooting with both irons and dots.

People get excited about all kinds of different aspects of shooting, and each time, something gets better. That is how it has to be.

I think improvement is occasionally mercifully easy, but that most of the time it's hard and you have to grind it out.

Mr_White

05-24-2019, 04:11 PM

That’s a challenging list of 4. There are a bunch of men who’ve shot an even bigger bunch of other men in the line of duty who probably couldn’t do all those runs on demand, either.

Completely agree, and I'd go so far as to say, not be able to do any of them.

Matt O

05-24-2019, 05:33 PM

I think Gabe's right that a lot of it is just a grind. For drills, you can always break down the components and attack them individually. For example, I received some good advice from Gabe and Les about speeding up my reload from concealment and, let me tell you, going from 2+ seconds down to a 1.5-1.7 second reload made sub 5 second FAST's a pretty normal thing. It took a ton of dry fire reps to get that reload down to that point though, so again, it was a grind.

Likewise, I drilled speed heavily in advance of taking Gabe's class. Only managed 3/8 turbo runs in the class when under pressure, but I can do them even more consistently in practice, so the physical capability is there, just needed to work on the mental game. But again, it took a lot of reps and rounds down range to get it even just to that point and I've obviously got a long ways yet too go.

Ironically, with all of that speed focus, I found after the class I couldn't shoot B8's worth shit. So as soon as you grind and focus on one set of components, you find you've atrophied somewhere else so now you've got to make sure you bring that back up to the level. What you focus on will change, but the grind remains the same.

Motivation is huge and that has waxed and waned with me. I'm hoping to devote quite a bit of time to trying out the red dot concept this year as that seems to be just about the only thing that gets me excited to dry fire right now and, if you're motivated to dry fire, you know you're doing something right.

Edited to add: For the record, I too have never shot a 100 on a B8. Ton of friggin' 99's though... =\

Clusterfrack

05-24-2019, 06:03 PM

My aha moment was when i stopped expecting a breakthrough. Being competitive in the USPSA Master class has taken a shit ton of hard work. There aren’t any shortcuts that I am aware of.

Your list of goals is also part of the problem. Those are benchmarks, and at least for me, aren’t a goal in and of themselves.

Stop feeling sorry for yourself and get to work. I am writing this from the range, after an excellent and fun practice session. I worked hard and maybe got 0.0001% better today.

Also a good coach can be a big help. Sometimes you need someone to tell you what to do to improve efficiently.

1Rangemaster

05-24-2019, 07:09 PM

I’m a “senior” shooter and haven’t hit those levels. I have a pin from the late Todd Green(no coin) and few other small accomplishments. They are somewhat important to me. Karl Rehn has a book out(with a chart I think generated by Mr. White) where he analyzes how much work it takes to reach high levels of performance. It’s a long tough grind.
That said, if those measurements are important to you, I would suggest focusing on one or two at a time, realizing that
working on, say, a 100 on a B8@25 may affect your speed shooting and reload time.
I’ve been around exceptional shooters. I can’t think of one of them that did not put in an almost obsessive amount of effort to get to their near superhuman levels. And, as it seems Mr White typed earlier, most(all?) could not do everything “on demand”. I focus now on being safe and measurably competent,e.g., POST qualified, passing FBI qual, etc. That doesn’t mean I don’t admire all the folks the OP mentioned and others. And I read with interest their work, how they practice and test themselves.
Best of luck with your shooting; as Clint Smith has been known to say: “the harder I work, the luckier I get”.

GJM

05-24-2019, 08:09 PM

To have a thoughtful discussion of this, you would need to start with defining “on demand.” On demand is a lot easier to do on the internet, and a lot harder to do in real life.

I don’t know anyone that, in real life, can repeatedly put down 100 percent of their relaxed practice ability, one try on a clock, in front of others. The way to put down performances like you describe, is to be able to shoot those drills at a much higher level in practice, so what happens on demand is 70-80 percent of your peak performance.

GJM

05-24-2019, 09:38 PM

As long as we are discussing this topic, I have a few more thoughts.

1) fixed time drills. Fixed time drills can be easy or they can be hard, depending upon the time available and your skill level. We know that “rushing” while shooting does not lead to a good result on low probability targets. If you know you can make the time limit, you can shoot without worrying about time, and time becomes a non factor. If you struggle to make the time allotted, you have this monkey on your back that makes the drill exponentially harder.

2) on demand. 99 percent of people quoting on demand ability on the internet are either mistaken or outright lying. To quote on demand honestly, there would be more exclusions, qualifications and caveats than on a life insurance policy marketed on late night cable tv.

3) self proclaimed ability. A high percentage of people telling you how good they shoot, don’t shoot that good. Good shooters let their results speak for themselves. Good shooters also know how many better shooters there are than them.

4) classification. A high percentage of people constantly telling you their classification, are over classified. They probably shot the same classifier six or ten times to make their classification, and are lucky to shoot a classifier percentage equal to their class in the last year.

5) stand and shoot drills. Most good USPSA shooters are not devoting significant amounts of their practice to stand and shoot drills. They are about winning matches, not raising their classification percentage, so their practice reflects that. If there was a sport that consisted of the four listed tests, people would be amazingly good at them. Look at the crazy peak hit factors for Steel Challenge. A lot of timmie drills are tactical shooters trying to compete at something without really competing where the heat is in USPSA.

Robinson

05-24-2019, 11:45 PM

I can't come close to those things and probably never will, but then again I'm not trying to because I haven't chosen those things as personal benchmarks. In fact I probably started getting more serious about shooting too late in life to really ever get to a very high level of skill -- especially compared to the people you mentioned.

But I did have a bit of an "ah-ha" moment at a Givens class when I shot a clean casino drill in 19 seconds with a totally flubbed second reload. The magazine slipped out of my hand and I caught it just above the ground and kept going. The "ah-ha" part was realizing that the focused practice I had been doing with that pistol/ammo/holster had paid off and I was starting to improve. Things like that keep me trying to get better and keep me interested, even knowing the limitations of my abilities.

miller_man

05-25-2019, 07:27 AM

Great thread. Really enjoying reading the responses.

I am reminded of a quote, I think I heard on Steve Anderson’s podcast
“There are no secrets. Everything is a secret”

ASH556

05-25-2019, 08:54 AM

Great thread. Really enjoying reading the responses.

I am reminded of a quote, I think I heard on Steve Anderson’s podcast
“There are no secrets. Everything is a secret”

Based on you and some others recommendations I began listening to these Thursday.

karmapolice

05-25-2019, 09:46 AM

The magic is that there is no magic – Pannone

GJM hit some very important points and legit truths with this already but I’ll throw in my 2 cents worth just because ASH556 is my friend and he mentioned me in this.

So legit on demand performance is a thing, the whole point is for it to be at a high level but there is more to it than that. There is a range of on demand performance from the I slept great, it’s clear and sunny out, I feel great etc. level to the it’s raining, I got two hours of sleep, I feel like shit, I’m scared etc. level. What anyone’s goal should be is to have the gap in levels be a small as possible, it takes work and depending on resources such as time, ammo, facilities etc. it can be micro improvements on both ends. Just like Gabe talks about in his class and Steven Anderson and others there is training to push performance which then requires a cleanup session but it involves pushing till the wheels fall off and then there is training the on demand level which for people with limited resources is the smarter option even though the gains are incremental they are lasting.

With anything such as shooting performance and or working out you have to define your goals, and they must be realistic and balanced. You don’t see many high level marathon runners that are also competitive body builders for a reason. They each have different task and goals therefore they require different training. There are of course balanced athletes depending on the sport or what you might refer to as tactical athletes (Mountain Tactical Institute) where they balance the levels or strength, endurance, etc. Ultimately whatever you goal is if you don’t structure your training/practice and have a reasonable test to measure yourself it’s kind of pointless. You might still get better but it’s going to take longer and it will be frustrating etc. Kevin B has a much better way to convey this and is someone who has spent a lot of time to create a system for himself and others. I’m super indebted to him as he has helped guide me and refine me as a shooter and in many other arenas as well. Gabe (@Mr_White) has also been instrumental for me in the shooting arena and I’m very lucky to have his as a friend.

Josh the same is for you, we helped push each other and hold one another accountable for a long time when it comes to shooting when we had no real guides early one. We had some legit frame of references but we didn’t have the metrics and or other things available to us early on that we have now.

So taking all that if you look at the four things you listed you have to break each down individually and ask what they mean to you and realize that they don’t all cross each other in the skills required. Also you have to ask what’s the cost on solely focusing on anyone of them individually as your main goal, will that make you a balanced shooter if you don’t maintain other stuff? I’d argue no and I think most would agree because at the end of the day the fundamentals are the fundamentals, there are high levels of application based off the situation etc. but that’s it. No there are things that come into play such as tactics, stage planning, mindset, physical conditioning etc. but for most real world shooting problems the reality is if you can shoot Dark pin levels with some light mixed in and let’s say 90’s on a B8 regularly at 25 yards you are more than good to go when it comes to the shooting skill part and this will free you up to start analyzing and dealing with the other problems. For example honestly a 2 second draw will get a lot done in a shooting problem but if you are tapping the high end of your on demand performance to just hit that goal you will probably be worried about that in a real world situation vs if you have more speed on tap and aren’t worried as you are confident in your draw you can begin dealing with other problems such as foreground/background etc.

So all this to basically say the list all don’t cross communicate skill wise with one another and again you are talking about the highest level of performance being required by the shooter and equipment as well (small portion but it matters especially when talking about 100 on a B8 at 25 yards, i.e. the 10 ring is 3.36 inches and if you ammo is 3’ capable at best and you add your movement etc.) Where and who these are shot in front of too will effect performance and as Gabe says there isn’t anyone who can just phone in a Turbo pin.

In closing define your personal goal, come up with realistic and legit metrics, structure practice, and do work! Also enjoy the process because there is no magic just hard work!

YVK

05-25-2019, 10:14 AM

By the time I got done with making my coffee, several people posted what I wanted to. My a-ha moment was a realization that there isn't one. The closest thing to it is when you're doing something wrong systematically and someone tells you that. We call it error correction. You (the OP) seemingly hint at slower than expected skill progression in your opening paragraph. That is a function of talent (yes, that matters), resources, and quantity and quality of practice, in bold because I've done a shit ton of bad practice sessions, both dry and live. If you've not hitting your marks, it is either any of these or your goals are unrealistic, at least at the moment.
The above listed set of skills, and on demand requirement, puts this in a realm of a strong, non-grandbagging M class shooter. Can you do it? See the underlined above.

nwhpfan

05-25-2019, 11:24 AM

I"m not special. I remember in about 2011 the first time I even shot a bill drill and couldn't split below .25 and wondered how in the world does Dave Sevigney do that? Dave Sevigny, Todd Jarrett, Rob Leatham, Brian Enos. I knew who those guys were, I had seen video's. I thought it was unattainable.

I read a post from Ben Stoeger where he said everyone that is good just put in the work. So on my Christmas List was a Ben Stoeger Dry Fire book and dry fire targets. And I committed to going page by page doing the drills for 15 minutes a day 3-5 days a week. In about 3 matches I was A Class. 3-4 more I made Master.

I challenge anyone to commit to the time. 3-5 x a week 15 minutes a day. Follow the prescription in Ben Stoeger's dry fire book. Live fire for match mode, speed mode, accuracy mode. Do, evaluate, adjust or repeat.

As for going to classes... I've paid to go to three:

Aim Fast Hit Fast. I was B class, not very good, didn't really know my technique, didn't know what see what you need to see mean or how to call shots. Had never dry fired.
Steve Anderson. A Class, almost Master, heard of all that stuff, thought I knew what it was. Didn't understand mindset or competing.
Mike Seeklander. Master Class, instructor development course. Mostly there for the resume and learn how to teach, not really a how to shoot class. 2015.

Haven't been to a class since, would probably only take a class from Ben Stoeger because he's the best. Or from Mr_White because he's my friend and it would be fun.

05-25-2019, 11:29 AM

I'll be rambling here. :)

I probably started shooting around the 1970's. My first competitions match was 1980. So I have been a competition shooter for around 40 years. :rolleyes: I am first a competition shooter with a side of Tactical Timmy. :)

I can't meet any of your goals. But, I still consider myself a winner. I have other goals. I like to win local matches and place well at regional or national matches.

One of my big aha moments was when I learned to shoot pistol with both eyes open.

Another biggie was in 1999 when I placed 8th overall at the IDPA Nationals. I realized I could shoot well if I just shot and kept my mind out of it. Background: I had been having some sort of heart palpitations. I was imagining open heart surgery and thinking about who I was going to give my slot to the Nationals to. Turns out I just had a potassium deficiency and I needed to drink orange juice every day. :) I went to the Nationals and had fun just being alive. I was shooting (pay attention here) "with no expectations". I ended up 4th SSP, won Expert and high Senior. I went back the next year expecting (see what happened here) to clean up. Didn't happen. :) Expectations. :(

Now I shoot matches with no expectations to win. But I sometimes do win. I don't think about results until afterwards. People will make comments as I walk up to a stage like; well here's the winner, or after I shoot they will say that's the fastest time all day. Or they will tell me how fast so and so shot the stage. I have to put that stuff in the back of my mind and just shoot with no expectations.

I told you I was going to ramble. I'm old enough to be a curmudgeon so I'm allowed. :)

Every time I try, I don't succeed. I have learned to just do and accept the consequences.

1. I had a chance to shoot the FAST in front of Todd one time. It happened that I was shooting my revolver that day. Can you imagine how much of a hero I would be if I shot a good fast with a revolver. Yeah, I was thinking of that. :(

2. mid 90's no 100's.

3. I'll have to "try" this. I've only shot it a couple of times.

4. I might be able to luck into this but my draw is slow.

One last point. I've found that I do better when I shoot Glocks and quit switching around. LOL

JHC

05-25-2019, 11:59 AM

okie john

05-25-2019, 12:22 PM

1. Coin-level FAST runs on-demand from concealment
2. 100 on a 25yd B8
3. Turbo-pin level on Gabe's stuff (with our without concealment).
4. A sub-2.5 Bill Drill clean

Coin and pins are meant to commemorate noteworthy performance on one occasion. Shooting is a perishable skill, so coins and pins are about the past, not the future.

I’ve shot 100 on a 25-yard B8 a handful of times, including once or twice with a Glock. It’s a lot easier with a match-grade 1911 or my Clark Ruger 22. It’s one of the few places where you really can buy skill.

The Bill Drill is meant to develop skills, not to measure meaningful application of deadly force.

We all want what we want but we need to keep it in perspective.

Okie John

Clark Jackson

05-26-2019, 10:17 PM

Some good posts in response to the original on here already so I'll try to be brief.

I think you are asking the wrong questions and have become fixated on certain "achievements" (wants) that do not necessarily translate to reality (needs). To be clear, not criticizing or faulting you for anything because I do appreciate your intentions and honesty not to mention your post is sort of the purpose behind PF.com, or at least I think so.

If you want something that translates to the real world I would say - without hesitation - the answer is "The Standards (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?2189-Kevin-B-s-Journal-Blast-from-the-Past)."

"The Standards" have changed slightly since the original post, but they're just as valid no matter which version you use... and they're the best thing I've seen to date that pretty much answer the question "what is good enough?".

About a year (+) ago I was a weak Dark Pin shooter (at best) at a Gabe White Pistol Shooting Solutions ( Mr_White ) class. In about a year I achieved a solid Light Pin. Conditions were pretty similar for both performances with a near stock Glock 19.4 (aftermarket iron sights) and similar holster set up. For my Dark Pin I shot from an OWB strong-side kydex (concealed open front shirt) and for my Light Pin I shot from an OWB Level 3 holster. How did I do it? Well, as karmapolice quoted Mike Panonne... "There is no magic...".

I didn't go from Dark to Light by shooting Gabe's drills repeatedly day in and day out, which I'm fairly sure Gabe would not encourage people to do unless their goal is to specifically earn a Turbo Pin. If your goal is to become a better shooter (overall) you should work things other than the technical shooting standards in your original post.

I did not shoot/practice three (3) of the four (4) technical shooting drills in Gabe's class until the next time I attended his class. I did shoot one (1) of his drills "regularly" - the split bill drill. I shot the SBD eight (8) times (exactly) on one (1) day every three (3) months for a year. I shot it on much more generous scoring zones than what you get in Gabe's class. Do I think shooting the SBD thirty-two (32) times (exactly) over the course of a year resulted in the Light Pin? No. Did it hurt? No. The times I shot the SBD were a small part of my overall training regimen and were never the focal point.

The point is this: "The Standards" and subsequent training to exceed those standards are the answer. The listed drills and goals in your original post are not bad, but they are not the best or most efficient places to put your time and money - IMHO.

-"The Standards"-
Shoot them, record your results, read/interpret those results, train accordingly, re-test.

My personal goal with the "Standards" is to achieve zero double no-go scores in any one (1) category and obtain at least 16/20 "go" rating for an overall 80% score. Anyone accomplishing this on the regular is doing something right. More importantly, those people have (IMO) an above average chance of winning any reasonable pistol shooting solution scenario.

Get hot.

psalms144.1

05-27-2019, 07:13 AM

My "aha" moment came when an instructor asked me "when are you going to stop showing off, and work on what you suck at?"

For me, I've always been blessed with a decent draw (in my heyday I could pull off solid A zone hits from concealment in sub 1.0), and a fast trigger finger (when I was shooting a lot I could consistently hold accurate sub .15 splits with a G19 shooting NATO FMJ). What I sucked at was REAL accuracy (3x5 at 25 yards, for instance), and off hand shooting. When I took my "look at me" ego glasses off, I realized that as fast as I was, there was a lot of work for me left to do.

I'd LOVE to tell you that I'm still shooting fast, and have reached my accuracy goals and off hand shooting skills, but that would be a lie (on the Internet - GASP!). What I realize now, 20 years later, is there's a WHOLE LOT more to this art than just shooting fast or straight. If I had unlimited training time and money, I'd spend the entire next year doing two things: physical conditioning (as I get older, my grip strength is fading, and that has a REALLY BAD effect on my shooting), and force-on-force, decision oriented scenario training. I've never been in a shoot house and failed because I was too slow, or not accurate enough, or missed a shot weak-hand only; but I've failed A LOT OF TIMES because of bad tactics (use of cover, clearing dead spots, etc), bad target identification (it really sucks to shoot the no-shoots, especially when they're your team mates), and just plain going too fast.

Alpha Sierra

05-27-2019, 08:41 AM

A lot of timmie drills are tactical shooters trying to compete at something without really competing where the heat is in USPSA.
QFT

Call them drills, call them standards, same same.

I have an a-ha moment every match. They show me what I need to train on.

Alpha Sierra

05-27-2019, 09:43 AM

If you want something that translates to the real world I would say - without hesitation - the answer is "The Standards (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?2189-Kevin-B-s-Journal-Blast-from-the-Past)."
While those standards are not trivial, it's difficult to see how they relate so closely to "real world" performance when they lack:
1. Shooting while moving
2. Moving (significant movement, not one side step or shuffle) then shooting
3. Shooting, moving, shooting again
4. Tight targets (like a partial A zone)
5. Leans/shooting around cover
6. Wide transitions
7. Distance change up/change down

It's really odd that the more "tactical" or "real world" someone says a set of standards is, the more those standards consist of standing in one place and shooting at one distance. On top of that the addition of completely unrealistic distances (50 yds) really makes it hard to understand the correlation to the practical use of a handgun.

Clusterfrack

05-27-2019, 10:18 AM

Difficult to see how that relates so closely to "real world" performance when it lacks:
1. Shooting while moving
2. Moving (significant movement, not one side step or shuffle) then shooting
3. Shooting, moving, shooting again
4. Tight targets (like a partial A zone)
5. Leans/shooting around cover
6. Wide transitions
7. Distance change up/change down

It's really odd that the more "tactical" or "real world" someone says a set of standards is, the more those standards consist of standing in one place and shooting at one distance. On top of that the addition of completely unrealistic distances (50 yds) really makes it hard to understand the correlation to the practical use of a handgun.

Totally agree.

Let's add:

-poor light
-heavy rain or cold
-dealing with a malfunction under time pressure
-performance while injured
-unexpected need to stop shooting

and so much more.

I've encountered all of these many times during competitive shooting and training for competitive shooting. As well, some of the excellent classes I've done have pushed me to and beyond my limits. Gabe's class was one of the best of these.

Drills just aren't important in and of themselves. They're just an exercise you do to improve, or a test to figure out where your weaknesses are.

I think it's a mistake to make your ego a slave to drill scores.

Alpha Sierra

05-27-2019, 11:19 AM

GJM

05-27-2019, 01:40 PM

A bunch of years ago, I remember shooting a pair of sub 4.0 FAST runs, thinking I was pretty spiffy, and when I went to shoot an accelerator drill that had USPSA targets at 7, 15 and 25 yards and couldn’t hit crap fast at 25, I realized that I was a 7 yard “expert,” and a lot of the rest of my skills sucked. USPSA matches test a wide range of shooting skills and positions.

LSP552

05-27-2019, 05:35 PM

It was learning that expectations kills performance, at least for me. In the Stone Age revolver era, I was one a pretty decent Master class PPC shooter and an LSP pistol Team member for a few years. I shot a Master class score in the first competition I entered, and don’t think I ever shot below M in a match.

A couple years later I was occasionally shooting High Master scores in practice. Try as hard as I could, that never happened in a match. Expecting to shoot to that level on match day was a sure guarantee to not make that happen.

I’ve shot my best when I worked hard in practice and then just let it happen on match day. That includes tactical shooting also.

Edited to add, it was much easier to tell myself to drop the expectations than to actually do it. The weakest part for me was always mental.

jetfire

05-28-2019, 10:01 AM

Wow.

Well I’m not sure I’m qualified to be listed with all those guys and I’m really not sure I could do any or all of those drills on demand. @PREDATOR (Sir Keeper) is probably there. jetfire (Caleb) and the Jedi too

I’m almost always better/faster and less error prone cold or having not shot for a week than I am at say the middle day of a set of classes. Knowing what to do without having to think it helps me a lot.

My personal progress was accelerated when I stopped remembering the bad shots and focused on the good ones.

Everyone misses. So what benefit comes from hyper analyzing a mistaken shot I don’t want to repeat? The book “with winning in mind” covers this.

I’m the type of person that seeks to do everything to the best of my ability - yet i have to pull a hard stop when doing or being the best at something begins to dominate my life.

As a person I struggle for life balance very heavily and healthy obsession is not a good thing for me.

As to posting less - for the most part I don’t feel as though I can add much to most discussions. Along with that - work travel, kids, land ownership deal out constant time constraints.

Thanks for the legit shout out!

To the original topic as it pertains to "ah-ha" moments in the shooting sports, there hasn't been just one. There have been several, and they've come at different points in my career. One thing I do think is true, and that a lot of good shooters would agree with is that big performance gains come easily when you're first starting out. To use IDPA classification as an example, getting from Marksman to Master class is challenging, but anyone can do it with sufficient practice time. Becoming a Master class shooter that is consistently in the running to win State matches and is match-heat at Nationals is a lot harder. That last two or three % of skills can be a real tough orange to squeeze.

My most recent "ah-ha" moment was right before my coin run. I was shooting fewer rounds than I had in the past, but I was getting waaaaay better quality of reps in. For the skills I was trying to develop, the 5,000 or so rounds I shot in 2018 was a way better time investment than the 50,000 rounds I shot in 2012.

GJM

05-28-2019, 10:15 AM

My most recent "ah-ha" moment was right before my coin run. I was shooting fewer rounds than I had in the past, but I was getting waaaaay better quality of reps in. For the skills I was trying to develop, the 5,000 or so rounds I shot in 2018 was a way better time investment than the 50,000 rounds I shot in 2012.

The tricky part, early on, is knowing what exactly are quality rounds (or dry fire reps). Without a coach, sometimes you need to shoot a lot to figure out what is most important. This is also completely dependent upon what you are trying to accomplish — defense, duty, bullseye, IDPA, USPSA, Steel Challenge.

jetfire

05-28-2019, 10:31 AM

The tricky part, early on, is knowing what exactly are quality rounds (or dry fire reps). Without a coach, sometimes you need to shoot a lot to figure out what is most important. This is also completely dependent upon what you are trying to accomplish — defense, duty, bullseye, IDPA, USPSA, Steel Challenge.

I think that back when the earth was still cooling in the early days of IPSC, dudes like Robbie and Brian had to shoot a gajillion rounds to figure out what the "best" way to do stuff was. Fast forward almost 30 years later and thanks to on-demand publishing, the internet, and the travelling instructor, new shooters don't have to go off on a square range and blast 100,000 rounds down range to figure out what's best. You can just take a class with Scott or JJ or Ernest or any one of the amazing shooters offering classes, and they'll get you on the right path. Then Mike Seeklander's training book and do that.

Gio

05-31-2019, 01:18 PM

1. Coin-level FAST runs on-demand from concealment
2. 100 on a 25yd B8
3. Turbo-pin level on Gabe's stuff (with our without concealment).
4. A sub-2.5 Bill Drill clean

I don't think any of these are unobtainable, and I would consider myself able to consistently do each one on demand most of the time. We are all subject to making mistakes from time to time though, that is just the nature of shooting at a high level. I would say if you can hit those things 80-90% of the time or more cold then I would consider that the ability to do it "on demand."

My first USPSA match in 2013, I already considered myself a pretty decent shooter by my agency and IDPA standards. I was already an IDPA master at the time and had shot a sub 90 second time on the original IDPA classifier to earn that. I squadded in that match with Matt Mink, who shared the same range/club I went to. Matt was coming off a 3rd place finish at USPSA production nationals that year a month or so before that club match. I remember watching Matt and thinking it made me look like i picked up a pistol for the first time yesterday. He was 10+ seconds faster than me on a 20-25 second stage and only dropping a couple C's per stage. It was eye opening to realize there was a whole different level of performance out there and was the motivating factor for me to really start training.

I think practicing static drills like the ones listed above over and over is not going to net you much improvement. When I started focusing on the skills I needed to excel at USPSA, my ability to shoot static drills like this went exponentially higher. USPSA is where the best pistol shooters in the world are. If you aren't trying to improve and be competitive there, then you are just not going to be able to touch the level of performance even an average M or GM shooter can lay down.

rob_s

06-01-2019, 05:46 AM

Maybe the first 90% is easy and it's the last 10% that takes hours, and hours, and thousands and thousands of rounds. If that's the case, cool just tell me and I'll keep plugging away. However, if there's a magic switch that I'm missing somehow, someone have mercy and tell me what it is.

The magic switch, as most of the more recent information I've come across seems to suggest, is being born good. That's your 90%. The 10% is the hundreds of thousands of hours.

Michael Jordan, or Tiger Woods, would NEVER be who they are if they didn't have natural, innate talent COMBINED with the work ethic (which, I would argue, is also a natural, innate trait) to keep at it, at the exclusion of pretty much all else, to be the best.

That said, actually being the best is also a matter of luck. Check out Fooled by Randomness (https://www.amazon.com/Fooled-Randomness-Hidden-Markets-Incerto/dp/0812975219) for more on this subject, as well as the sports series of Freakonomics Radio (https://www.npr.org/podcasts/452538045/freakonomics-radio). In the latter, one of the top athletes they interview talks about the random chance things like whether or not you happen to get injured, or the flu, right before the Olympics and how that affects who really comes out on top.

So maybe you're not trying to be "the best", but the same principals apply. That guy you see at the range that you think is burning it down may work at a convenience store, be single, and have no kids. it's great that he's a world-class shooter, but maybe your priorities are different. Maybe you have a 60 hour a week job, a wife, and 4 kids plus a 2 hour round trip commute. Maybe he's grossly out of shape (skinny fat?) and you're spending an hour a day in the gym or on a bike.

One of the worst things about the internet (which commonly gets referenced in regards to social media, but is also true of forums like these) is that you only see what people want you to see, and as you can see by the responses to this thread by some of the top shooters you mentioned, the performance goals you list aren't really what you think they are. I don't think that any of those guys are trying to intentionally mis-represent their performance, but when you only see people's vacation pictures you start to think they live on vacation. Nobody is posting a video to instagram of themselves doing the laundry.

I say all of this as someone who also at one point in my life decided to "buckle down, work hard, and improve my shooting". What I found was that I had some physical limitations that came into play, a pretty severe lack of natural ability regards to shooting, and eventually life situations that put constraints on my time. Couple that with a more realistic understanding of the world and business of "self defense" and I became perfectly content with my Marksman-level classification/performance.

Now I just shoot for fun, and I'm far happier.

Clark Jackson

06-01-2019, 03:37 PM

I don't think any of these are unobtainable, and I would consider myself able to consistently do each one on demand most of the time. We are all subject to making mistakes from time to time though, that is just the nature of shooting at a high level. I would say if you can hit those things 80-90% of the time or more cold then I would consider that the ability to do it "on demand."

My first USPSA match in 2013, I already considered myself a pretty decent shooter by my agency and IDPA standards. I was already an IDPA master at the time and had shot a sub 90 second time on the original IDPA classifier to earn that. I squadded in that match with Matt Mink, who shared the same range/club I went to. Matt was coming off a 3rd place finish at USPSA production nationals that year a month or so before that club match. I remember watching Matt and thinking it made me look like i picked up a pistol for the first time yesterday. He was 10+ seconds faster than me on a 20-25 second stage and only dropping a couple C's per stage. It was eye opening to realize there was a whole different level of performance out there and was the motivating factor for me to really start training.

I think practicing static drills like the ones listed above over and over is not going to net you much improvement. When I started focusing on the skills I needed to excel at USPSA, my ability to shoot static drills like this went exponentially higher. USPSA is where the best pistol shooters in the world are. If you aren't trying to improve and be competitive there, then you are just not going to be able to touch the level of performance even an average M or GM shooter can lay down.

Competition is not training.

However, competition breeds excellence.

Overwhelmingly, real gunfighter work is done by those who are not USPSA GM/M level shooters. Not bashing USPSA (I love it and participate in it) but let's not fetishize USPSA and its influence with two-way shooting solutions. Simultaneously, let's not discount USPSA/IDPA influence in those real-world shooting events.

The desire to improve your technical shooting (to "get better") is one of the greatest gifts competitive shooting gave to the larger shooting community. Getting better at technical shooting is a good thing, but it is not the only thing.

Clusterfrack

06-01-2019, 04:06 PM

Competition in one match isn’t a lot of training time, but it is time well spent.

Training to be competitive in USPSA can yield remarkable improvements in shooting skill, beyond any tactically oriented coursework I’ve seen. Of course, competition isn’t fighting, so we have to train in other ways as well.

I just listened to Mike Seeklander interview Pat MacNamara, and learned how when he was in the Unit he ran a USPSA club. Interesting interview for sure.

I think there’s a good synergy between competition and defense training.

Clark Jackson

06-02-2019, 11:40 AM

I read a smart quote somewhere: "Not every competition is a gunfight, but every gunfight is a competition."

A lot more to that statement than what you think with a single read through.

Each person who reads it will immediately assume a certain meaning(s) based on what side of the technical/tactical coin they predominately fall on.

Shelve the personal bias for a moment and give that quote a couple of looks. Do some legitimate introspection. Find the answers... or find the right questions. It might help.

eclecticmoose

06-15-2019, 06:38 AM

I've had lots of plateaus and climbs, without a single breakthrough moment. When I first got serious about shooting a handgun the only one I had was a S&W Model 10-5. I got some snap caps and focused on working that double action trigger in dry practice. Another learning progression was regarding my grip--I learned that there was a way to grip each gun that helped to set myself up for success for the shot(s). Finally, truly understanding front sight focus and the letting go of the target focus.

Still learning, listening, reading, and shooting.

Gio

06-22-2019, 11:08 PM

Competition is not training.

However, competition breeds excellence.

Overwhelmingly, real gunfighter work is done by those who are not USPSA GM/M level shooters. Not bashing USPSA (I love it and participate in it) but let's not fetishize USPSA and its influence with two-way shooting solutions. Simultaneously, let's not discount USPSA/IDPA influence in those real-world shooting events.

The desire to improve your technical shooting (to "get better") is one of the greatest gifts competitive shooting gave to the larger shooting community. Getting better at technical shooting is a good thing, but it is not the only thing.

This thread isn’t about gun fights, it’s about shooting performance, and I didn’t mention gun fighting at all in my post. However, I do plenty of training for that as well, and I probably fall as squarely in the middle of tactical and competition as anyone on this forum. Gun fights are won by a combination of mindset, tactics, and skill. Competition shooting improves the latter better than anything else you can do if done correctly because it motivates you to compete against the best in the world. Ive always found that when you can run your weapons subconsciously at a high level, it frees up your mind to focus on tactics.

The reason most “real gunfighter” work is done by people who are not an M or GM is because most shooters are simply not at that level. The two shootings I’ve been intimately aware of with an M and A level shooter were overwhelmingly one sided. Those shooters were also excellent tacticians as well.

JAD

06-23-2019, 03:22 AM

. Competition shooting improves the latter better than anything else you can do if done correctly because it motivates you to compete against the best in the world. .

Competition is a very effective motivator but not for me at least the best way to develop skill. That, again for me at least , was in a small group of like minded people who workshop drills.

JAD

06-23-2019, 11:22 AM

Competition is a very effective motivator but not for me at least the best way to develop skill. That, again for me at least , was in a small group of like minded people who workshop drills.
vcdgrips need to get the band back together.

WDR

06-26-2019, 11:56 PM

I'm in no way qualified to talk about what it takes to shoot really well. I'm probably better at it than Joe Sixpack off the street, but I'm in no way master of the craft. I've shot quite a few sub 6 second FAST tests... but not under pressure of standing in front of a class. I've shot some decent scores on various drills I've seen posted here, but nothing to brag about. I've made some really good snap shots, long range shots, and shots from crap positions while hunting with both rifles and handguns. I consider myself a far better rifleman than pistol shot. I have shot some steel challenge and and USPSA matches, but never took it seriously, and mostly used it as a way to add a little pressure to my training.

I made it a goal to shoot sub 6 second FASTs a few years back. I dry practiced a couple times per week, and went live once a week. I didn't just grind out a bunch of FASTs... I shot them cold at the beginning of my sessions, and worked on other drills that broke down the individual parts. I missed a LOT of shots to the 3x5, and it took me a while to slow down and work the problems one at a time. I think my fastest run was 5.6ish seconds, and I figured I could maybe get down to 5 seconds if I put in a bit more work. Life happened, and I had my daughter, and my priorities changed. She's now almost six, and I've only been able to get back into shooting in the last couple of years. Shooting is a perishable skill, and requires upkeep if you want to shoot at a high level consistently. My current FAST could probably be measured with a sun dial.

My two "ah ha" moments in learning how to shoot faster and more accurately came when I figured out how much wobble zone and sight misalignment I could get away with, and still make decent hits, and also when I was finally able to see the sights lift and track them through recoil, while keeping both eyes open. Visual focus/sight does play a huge part in going faster. Learning recoil control and grip was also a huge improvement for me. I'm currently shooting a lot of DA with a J-frame to learn better trigger control.

All that said, as most are saying, you have to put in the time/reps/ammo/work to squeeze out those last little bits of performance. There probably isn't a shortcut. Having a good training partner or coach would also be a great help.

Gun Mutt

06-27-2019, 11:04 AM

Another great thread and I've nothing to add to the topic as the OP framed it, but the title did spur a reply I thought I'd share.

Growing up as an Indiana farm boy, I'd been shooting most of my life. I had a hand me down copy of The Shooters Bible (a gift from our pastor, no less), read all the glossies, watched every training video tape I could lay hands on, got my CCW at 21 (it would be another 5yrs before I made it to Thunder Ranch), you know, the usual fare for the latter 1900's. I was an okay pistol shooter, but I was I horribly inconsistent. While I could usually keep everything in the black, my target still looked like a shotgun pattern.

When I was 23, my good friend, Frank, lived a couple miles away and he got deep into bow hunting, which, of course, led to me getting my first compound bow. Shooting diagonally across his backyard with the shed as a backstop to our target bags, we had lines at 25,35 & 45yds to shoot from. At those ranges, we were soon shooting each other's arrows so often that we had to make a gentleman's agreement not to do it anymore...just too damn expensive for the momentary grins.

A couple of months in, Frank took me to my first proper outdoor archery range. We started at the 25yd line and worked our way back to the 75. I distinctly remember the 60yd line as it was the first time I'd had to actually adjust and use anything other than my top two sight pins. Once sighted in, it blew me away how well we grouped 5 shot clusters at those distances. Way, way farther than I'd ever successfully shot a pistol. It was like some kind of wizardry; at 75yds, it didn't matter that the bow was damn near pointed at the sky, if you held the sight pin steady while you triggered the release and practiced good follow through, the arrows magically appeared in the bull.

Later that same week, I was at the indoor pistol range with Frank and two others. My edc back then was a BHP that I was seriously considering trading out of as I didn't shoot it any better than the 92 I'd previously carried. As you probably suspect, I loaded up a mag of ball ammo and promptly shot the center out of my target. As the session progressed, I moved to the other three bays and out shot all three of them with their own pistols: Frank's Sig 228, Johnny's Smith 59 and Larry's recently acquired Colt Gold Cup.

Frank was genuinely butt hurt at my sudden leap in skill. Wtf, bro? Seriously, how? He wasn't much mollified to learn that he'd been the cause.

I've had a lot more instruction, training and competition in the intervening 27yrs and I've learned so much in that time...but my 'Aha moment' was shooting a compound bow at 60yds.

Sauer Koch

07-12-2019, 08:04 PM

My ah-ha moment was the weekend I spent in the Gabe White PSS class, and earning a Dark Pin, and realizing that the simple act of doing the basics over and over can lead to great things.

I had known of him for a while, but never studied anything he did. I saw an excellent video review of this class, by Mickey Schuch (Carry Trainer) & his friend Donovan, who is a high-level SF guy. They raved about the quality of Gabe’s class, and at the time, I was wanting to take a training class from a top tier instructor, not that I belonged there, but to simply get a feel for where I stood, and to find out what I was capable of, by being challenged by someone like Gabe. Their comments about the class sealed the deal for me, and after seeing this video, I got a notification from my local range, that Gabe would be there in just 6 weeks, so it was meant to be, and I signed up immediately.

My foundation at this point was three yrs of static, accuracy-based shooting, working on the fundamentals of grip, and trigger control (lots of DA pulls), and rarely ever trying to shoot very fast, and 98% of this was with a Sig 226 & 229, with some CZ 75, and 1911 at times.

Prior to this class I had taken a full day formal Pistol class, and some private training classes with a local trainer, but never did anything with a top tier instructor. My draw work sucked, simply because most of my shooting was at indoor ranges, and it just wasn’t something that I devoted much time to at the outdoor range that I joined. After reading the required skills from Gabe’s site, and knowing how fast he is, I was intimidated, and didn’t think I’d be able to keep up with the class, but after training Judo for 20+ yrs, I wasn’t afraid of a challenge, and looked forward to it.

This class seemed to be a perfect storm for me. I was shooting my new P30 LEM, which only had about 800 rounds through it with no issues, but was considering using my 226, which was my primary pistol for the last 3 yrs, but I was really liking the HK, and took a chance on using it, and it paid off well in the end.
On paper, everything was against me, but I attribute Gabe’s excellent instruction, and class structure to my success, as he seemed to be the perfect instructor and the perfect class structure, in the form of a challenging experience that brought out the best in me, and what a fun weekend it was; thanks Gabe! Practicing the four drills, then shooting them for time, then for the ‘record’, in front of my classmates, was an excellent process for me to go through, and I ended up shooting way better than I ever thought I could.

Honestly, coming into the class, I had seen his Pin standards, but I had never shot any of them for time, and with my draw work being pretty crude, and with it being from concealment, I simply showed up wanting to learn as much as I could, but never thought for a second that I’d even come close to earning a pin, and I was fine with that, as that wasn’t why I was there.

“there is no magic”…so true! (other than intelligent & consistent application of the fundamentals of shooting…and for me, thousands and thousands of rounds).

Currently, that particular range has since closed and my holster work has suffered, so I need to get busy with dry-fire and draw work at home. I could not shoot well enough right now to earn that Dark Pin, and that’s okay, I’ll stick with the basics and get back there.