BRN-10 & CETME L review

[Tokarev]

How cool is this? Did anyone ever think we'd see either of these rifles for sale in mass quantity?

The BRN-10 is nearly perfect although I imagine most people would have rather had something that looks like the Portuguese model.

https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2019/5/23/retro-rifles-from-brownells-and-marcolmarfirearms/

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[TGS]

I don't "get" the demand for the CETME.

I'd much rather see the Stg44, FG42 or Stg45 in mass production.

[Tokarev]

I don't "get" the demand for the CETME.

I'd much rather see the Stg44, FG42 or Stg45 in mass production.I think the demand is for something different rather than specifically for the CETME. It isn't like that gun has a proud military history. With that said, anyone who enjoys and/or collects HK rifles will probably want one.

Wasn't Hill and Mac working on an StG44 clone?

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[Bigghoss]

I think the demand is for something different rather than specifically for the CETME.

I think it's this. People are kinda bored of AR15's.

[NuJudge]

I think the demand is for something different rather than specifically for the CETME. It isn't like that gun has a proud military history. With that said, anyone who enjoys and/or collects HK rifles will probably want one.

Wasn't Hill and Mac working on an StG44 clone?

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I've been waiting two years for delivery on mine. It is supposed to be a magazine problem.

[1986s4]

I think it's this. People are kinda bored of AR15's.

Maybe, I won't say you're wrong since it would seem subjective but Brownells and others are selling Retro AR's of various vintages. As a 2 gun shooter in any given match I'll see maybe 2-3 non AR type rifles and those will usually be AK's. Maybe it's my AO but the AR-15 seems to rule the roost.

[Bigghoss]

Maybe, I won't say you're wrong since it would seem subjective but Brownells and others are selling Retro AR's of various vintages. As a 2 gun shooter in any given match I'll see maybe 2-3 non AR type rifles and those will usually be AK's. Maybe it's my AO but the AR-15 seems to rule the roost.

Import restrictions pretty much killed off anything not an AR or AK unless a person is willing to drop close to $2k on a rifle. You can get an AR15 for just under $1,000 and most of the other good options are about double that. You can't get Daewoo's or FNC's anymore. The Brownell's retro rifles are still AR15's but at least it's a little different.

[Joe in PNG]

Import restrictions pretty much killed off anything not an AR or AK unless a person is willing to drop close to $2k on a rifle. You can get an AR15 for just under $1,000 and most of the other good options are about double that. You can't get Daewoo's or FNC's anymore. The Brownell's retro rifles are still AR15's but at least it's a little different.

Plus, the vast majority of current non-AR rifles are either super expensive (Styer AUG), kind of odd (Tavors, ect), really old (M1a, Mini-14s), or from the crack addled monkeys at Century Arms.

I would love an Aug, but I love having my kidneys more.

[rcbusmc24]

Im eyeing up a green cetme L at a buddies shop. I have a thing for odd assaulty things that the anti's don't want me to have... probably gonna pick it up to keep my HK rollers company.

[Tokarev]

Im eyeing up a green cetme L at a buddies shop. I have a thing for odd assaulty things that the anti's don't want me to have... probably gonna pick it up to keep my HK rollers company.I think it is an odd and interesting rifle. Right there with stuff like the AR70. Not better than anything and probably not a SHTF gun but fun and enjoyable none the less.

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[Tokarev]

Note the trigger pull in the specs? 11.25 pounds. Must be made by Gazelle....

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[rcbusmc24]

Ive got a AR70.....only place ive been able to get extra mags from was dsgarms. Love me some prebans... yeah the trigger pull in the one Im looking at is nothing special. Classic crappy preban rifle trigger.

[1986s4]

Of the non-AR's I'd like a Valmet or Galil but for my purposes of 2 gun matches and SD the AR is customizable, plentiful, durable, reliable and accurate beyond my needs.

[Tokarev]

for my purposes of 2 gun matches and SD the AR is customizable, plentiful, durable, reliable and accurate beyond my needs.

Yeah that's the appeal of both of these guns I think. Not necessarily practical or even useful for some uses. But sometimes it is fun to own something just because.

Kind of like a Royal Enfield motorcycle.

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[1986s4]

Yeah that's the appeal of both of these guns I think. Not necessarily practical or even useful for some uses. But sometimes it is fun to own something just because.

Kind of like a Royal Enfield motorcycle.

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Yep, agreed. My daily driver is a Toyota FJ Cruiser, always wanted one but completely impractical. But I love it.

[Tokarev]

The Brownell's reproduction is an interesting rifle. I've wanted something similar for years. Armalite came close with the M14 magazine rifles but kept too many M16A2 features to make a nostalgia gun.

What I don't like about the Brownell's BRN-10 is the choice of model. Why go with a Cuban pattern when probably 99% of the interested parties want something like the late production Portuguese rifle? I think the current gun with a half plastic half ventilated steel handguard would make just about everything right. Maybe the purists would lament that such a rifle would have an incorrect front sight base (no gas adjustment) and a non-forward assist charging handle.

Brownell's seems to be having a good amount of success with the various M16 retro rifles. Maybe the 308 series will see a similar treatment? Are Sudanese and transitional models in the works?

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[TGS]

Wasn't Hill and Mac working on an StG44 clone?


There are repros here and there, but they're not mass produced affordable guns. Reliability can be an issue, and the niche gun market (like the HK F/A conversion market) seems to have continual problems with the integrity of small shops (taking your money for vaporware). People get angry when holster makers fuck them over on a $100-$200 holster order...….imagine dropping thousands of dollars and never seeing anything for it.

The Smith FG42 repro costs about $5-$7k the last time I looked at any. I plan on buying one in the future as sort of a grail gun, but that's immaterial to the point that I think the FG42, Stg44, and Stg45 would have much more interest in the shooting community than the CETME. Any HK roller delayed junkies would undoubtedly have more interest in the Stg45 than the CETME.

I'd go so far to say that there's any number of rifles that would be more desirable than the CETME. The Fedorov, G43, RSC M1917, Johnson M1941, EM2, and Stoner 63. I'd add Dragunov, but I'm guessing that most people who would want one but can't afford a real one are already getting their COMBLOC DMR kick from the PSL and 23" barreled VEPRs, and while they're Kalashnikovs and not SVDs, they're similar enough.

[Tokarev]

There are repros here and there, but they're not mass produced affordable guns. Reliability can be an issue, and the niche gun market (like the HK F/A conversion market) seems to have continual problems with the integrity of small shops (taking your money for vaporware). People get angry when holster makers fuck them over on a $100-$200 holster order...….imagine dropping thousands of dollars and never seeing anything for it.

The Smith FG42 repro costs about $5-$7k the last time I looked at any. I plan on buying one in the future as sort of a grail gun, but that's immaterial to the point that I think the FG42, Stg44, and Stg45 would have much more interest in the shooting community than the CETME. Any HK roller delayed junkies would undoubtedly have more interest in the Stg45 than the CETME.

I'd go so far to say that there's any number of rifles that would be more desirable than the CETME. The Fedorov, G43, RSC M1917, Johnson M1941, EM2, and Stoner 63. I'd add Dragunov, but I'm guessing that most people who would want one but can't afford a real one are already getting their COMBLOC DMR kick from the PSL and 23" barreled VEPRs, and while they're Kalashnikovs and not SVDs, they're similar enough.

The Stoner 63 was already done. Robinson did those 15 or 20 years ago. An interesting idea but they never sold that well from what I understand. Those guns are now somewhat collectible in their own right.

While it is possible someone like Ohio Ordnance could recreate a Johnson or a Federov, I believe the market would simply be too small to make such an endeavor profitable.

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[TGS]

The Stoner 63 was already done. Robinson did those 15 or 20 years ago. An interesting idea but they never sold that well from what I understand. Those guns are now somewhat collectible in their own right.

Sold poorly compared to cheap AR15s and WASR 10s.

They didn't sell poorly compared to other expensive, historical oriented guns.

There's some other things going on there impacting sales besides the gun, as well....namely the company, a factor that would be remedied if it were the Brownells M96, instead.



While it is possible someone like Ohio Ordnance could recreate a Johnson or a Federov, I believe the market would simply be too small to make such an endeavor profitable.

Something I was thinking regarding this, is how much data is already out there on the CETME from the parts kits over the years that probably made the design and production easier.

I imagine that the other guns might be a lot more labor to recreate, but I'm still convinced they'd be more desirable than a rifle regarded as a half-functional Spanish garbage gun of no historical significance.

IDK.....the way I look at it is if you had a manufacturer building new production historical cars. You could have any number of desirable, interesting, beautiful, culturally and/or historically significant guns........but instead they build an expensive version of the Edsel, Pinto, or AMC Gremlin. Da'fuq.

[Tokarev]

Sold poorly compared to cheap AR15s and WASR 10s.

They didn't sell poorly compared to other expensive, historical oriented guns.

There's some other things going on there impacting sales besides the gun, as well....namely the company, a factor that would be remedied if it were the Brownells M96, instead.



Something I was thinking regarding this, is how much data is already out there on the CETME from the parts kits over the years that probably made the design and production easier.

I imagine that the other guns might be a lot more labor to recreate, but I'm still convinced they'd be more desirable than a rifle regarded as a half-functional Spanish garbage gun of no historical significance.

IDK.....the way I look at it is if you had a manufacturer building new production historical cars. You could have any number of desirable, interesting, beautiful, culturally and/or historically significant guns........but instead they build an expensive version of the Edsel, Pinto, or AMC Gremlin. Da'fuq.I'm not disagreeing with you. But it will have to be someone small like a Robinson or a Hill and Mac or Macolmar. Expecting Ruger or FN to undertake such an endeavor simply is wishful thinking at best.

Even then, nobody will take the financial gamble and reproduce something like a Federov or even a Johnson. There are no suplus parts kits to build on so every last piece would have to be made from scratch. Yeah, modern castings could be used but there again you would have to have someone big in the industry (Ruger) get involved. I assume Ruger would make anything you want as long as it was profitable to do so. Would Ohio Ordnance or whoever have the funds to pay for such a project?

The CETME L is being made simply because there are 10,000 kits on the market.

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[TGS]

Even then, nobody will take the financial gamble and reproduce something like a Federov or even a Johnson. There are no suplus parts kits to build on so every last piece would have to be made from scratch. Yeah, modern castings could be used but there again you would have to have someone big in the industry (Ruger) get involved. I assume Ruger would make anything you want as long as it was profitable to do so. Would Ohio Ordnance or whoever have the funds to pay for such a project?


You mean like how Smith Machine Group has already been making the FG42? They did exactly that......recreated the gun from scratch, part by part. Except for the magazine ;)

Obviously that's coming at a cost, however, as they're essentially one off builds out of a very small shop. I'm curious if there's been any attempt by SMG to sell their plans, or larger established manufacturer to buy it. If you could get a larger manufacturer to produce FG42s for $2k, they'd sell like crazy. Without question, even more so the Stg44...they wouldn't be able to keep them in stock. Maybe not as much the Fedorov or RSC-1917, but the M1941 Johnson would likely do well as well with the same crowd that collects M1 Garands and M1 Carbines.

[Tokarev]

Wise Lite and DSA have done some Soviet stuff. And Marcolmar did a PKM that was pretty pricey.

Any of these guns would be nifty as heck to see on the market. But sell like hotcakes? Nope. Not even at $2,000. Nobody outside the hard corps collectors or enthusiasts would be interested.

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[Joe in PNG]

Brownells is also doing a more modern take on the Armalite AR-180 by building an AR-15 compatible upper (file under "Things Everybody Probably Already Knew").

It will be interesting to see how well that does, and if they go full retro on the design (for those who want to get their Terminator on).

[Tokarev]

Brownells is also doing a more modern take on the Armalite AR-180 by building an AR-15 compatible upper (file under "Things Everybody Probably Already Knew").

It will be interesting to see how well that does, and if they go full retro on the design (for those who want to get their Terminator on).I believe Brownell's has stated they won't be doing a full-on Terminator or IRA Armalite 180 build. They say the stamping machines are too expansive.

There is some discussion on ar15.com about a billet AR lower that is cut to resemble a 180 lower. That's probably about as close as we can get.

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[Tokarev]

An interview with Marcolmar owner David Bane.

https://gunstreamer.com/watch/interview-with-dave-bane-of-marcolmar-firearms-nraam-2019_nIwoWtdwJ2wsPiI.html?fbclid=IwAR3lbmEk6Gex6fc j3fdsjKdTKiThncAxJYt7CboQuVI-8IXyNA4fur_FYf8

[Lex Luthier]

If we're putting in a wish list, I will add a
MAS 49/56 optimized for 7.62x51
with a magwell that will accept either AR-10, M-14, or G3/HK 91 mags. And maybe a modern optic mounting system...

[Bigghoss]

If we're putting in a wish list, I will add a
MAS 49/56 optimized for 7.62x51
with a magwell that will accept either AR-10, M-14, or G3/HK 91 mags. And maybe a modern optic mounting system...

Dude. Get out of my head.

[HCM]

Plus, the vast majority of current non-AR rifles are either super expensive (Styer AUG), kind of odd (Tavors, ect), really old (M1a, Mini-14s), or from the crack addled monkeys at Century Arms.

I would love an Aug, but I love having my kidneys more.

Current US production AUGs are about $1700. About the same cost as the Tavor.?As I recall in the 80s, when a new Colt AR was $450 an AUG was $8-900.

In relative terms AUGs are cheaper than they were back in the day.

Given a Mini 14 was $250 at the time and now rivals the cost of a good AR, this is actually a great time to pick up an AUG.

[Tokarev]

I'm fairly surprised that Brownell's isn't making a retro inspired AR10 carbine.

It looks like they planned to have a few different types available because I see a couple different barrels available on the website. They already have the carbine barrel and are also selling the carry handle upper and chrome bolt carrier assembly.

Using these parts it should not be terribly difficult to make something similar to the carbine pictured here. The hard part would be the proper forend. Maybe someone like Ironwood Designs could help.


https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190528/ea49e178f70d65aaa6aaff68259bf6a2.jpg

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[Tokarev]

Maybe the lack of AR10 variants is an indicator of how these are actually selling.

The Brownell's M16 retro line seems pretty complete so those various guns are all probably selling pretty well.

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[Tokarev]

Another American Rifleman review:

https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2019/5/29/tested-brownells-brn-10a-rifle/