22LR Pistol suggestion...

[Mystery]

Thinking of getting a 22LR for building up skills.
I thought about getting M&P 22LR as I have M&P 9 but a lot of you suggested on getting a target 22LR so I read a lot of threads and watched a lot of videos.
It comes down to basically 3 semiautomatic 22LR pistols.
1. Ruger Mark
2. Browning Buck Mark
3. S&W Victory

Here's the summary from my research.
Some like Browning and S&W over Ruger but most used/liked is Ruger.
S&W Victory feels great and shoots great out of the box but looks ugly/plain in comparison.
It is fine for target training and plinking and quite few use it in the competition.
Browning feels better than Ruger and shoots great out of the box but not as much popular in competition as Ruger.
Ruger is the most popular but it is not that great from factory and needs few upgrades out of the box and a lot of upgrades to make it to the competition.
Grip is too thin for many.

I'm not thinking about competition in near futurebut if I can get a gun that also works for competition without spending three times the gun's purchase price in upgrades, I'll buy it.

So here are the questions:
1. Is S&W victory good option? It's around $309.

2. What barrel Browning Buck Mark you suggest? 4" Micro Bull for $269 or 5.5" for $309 or any other model?
Is the 4" Buck Mark as good as longer versions for training?
If it is, I may get it and call it done.
It's cheap and good out of the box for training with no upgrades needed.

3. If Ruger, what model? What barrel? Some models are around $319 like the 22/45 Target but others are over $400 like the 22/45 lite and even over $600 for the competition model.
I'm okay spending little more from the cheapest but I really don't want to spend money on upgrades immediately.

Thanks

[idahojess]

I have an M&P 22 (standard)and a Ruger Mark IV.

I'd get an M&P 22 or an M&P compact 22.

https://palmettostatearmory.com/s-w-m-p-22-compact-22lr-pistol.html

Trigger, weight, fit, all that stuff is more similar to what I shoot. (I generally shoot M&P's).

Both my Ruger and my M&P 22 run fine, but I have way more rounds through the M&P.

The Ruger is quite a bit different. Different reach, trigger pull weight, balance, weight of barrel, etc. I'm probably going to trade the Ruger in on something else, I just don't shoot it.

[whomever]

What kind of competition?

I ran a Bullseye Pistol 22 league for several years. What I saw on the line was:

1)The high end Euro guns - Pardini, Hammerli, etc. $$$$$
2)S&W Model 41's $$$
3)Various 1911 conversions (people who also shot the centerfire league wanted a 1911 platform. As a class, these were pretty unreliable)
4)Ruger MK something. Both the classic MKII style, and later MK 22/45's when they came out). These were a plurality.
5)Onsey-twoseys of everything else. Old High Standards, the Sig Trailside, Buckmarks, revolvers.

My better half shot expert with a stock MKII (with a red dot, but with presbyopia you need that for any gun). She eventually added a custom grip.

Unless some other gun really speaks to you, I'd get a Ruger. They are usually reliable, lots of people know how to fix them, aftermarket stuff is readily available if you want to fiddle.

I'd get the 5.5 inch bull barrel, in either MkIV or 22/45 flavor, depending on what grip angle you prefer. I would avoid the 'Lite' ones. A little weight is your friend, for bullseye anyway.

If you're doing rimfire IPSC or Silhouette or something, then disregard :-)

[Sal Picante]

Thinking of getting a 22LR for building up skills.

What kind of skills?



I'm not thinking about competition in near futurebut if I can get a gun that also works for competition without spending three times the gun's purchase price in upgrades, I'll buy it.


What kind of competition?

Seriously, answering these two questions is what is going to put you down a particular path.


Ruger is the most popular but it is not that great from factory and needs few upgrades out of the box and a lot of upgrades to make it to the competition. Grip is too thin for many.


It does? What kind of competition? How big are your hands?

[0ddl0t]

Is range time and/or ammo cost a limiting factor? I.e. will shooting the 22 take away from shooting your 9mm? If so, I'd recommend dry fire instead of splitting your range time between dissimilar platforms.

I just don't believe buying a soft-shooting SAO competition-oriented 22 is going to do much to help you better shoot a snappy compact 9mm with a meh trigger (which I assume is your goal). 2 cases of 9mm and focused practice will do a lot more for you...

[Mystery]

I have an M&P 22 (standard)and a Ruger Mark IV.

I'd get an M&P 22 or an M&P compact 22.

https://palmettostatearmory.com/s-w-m-p-22-compact-22lr-pistol.html

Trigger, weight, fit, all that stuff is more similar to what I shoot. (I generally shoot M&P's).

Both my Ruger and my M&P 22 run fine, but I have way more rounds through the M&P.

The Ruger is quite a bit different. Different reach, trigger pull weight, balance, weight of barrel, etc. I'm probably going to trade the Ruger in on something else, I just don't shoot it.
M&P 22 is what I started with in the class and I liked it.
That's an option.


What kind of competition?
...
Unless some other gun really speaks to you, I'd get a Ruger. They are usually reliable, lots of people know how to fix them, aftermarket stuff is readily available if you want to fiddle.

I'd get the 5.5 inch bull barrel, in either MkIV or 22/45 flavor, depending on what grip angle you prefer. I would avoid the 'Lite' ones. A little weight is your friend, for bullseye anyway.

If you're doing rimfire IPSC or Silhouette or something, then disregard :-)
I have no idea what kind of competition.
Just watched videos of steel shooting competition where they used 22LR like Victory, Mark and Buck marks so thought that's a popular competition to get into later.

Grip angle is another thing. I have not even held any of these three guns.
I'll see if my range has them to feel the grips/angle.


What kind of skills?
...
What kind of competition? How big are your hands?
Fundamentals like not moving the sights, aim, just the basic skills without spending $$$ on 9mm.
See above for competition...

Is range time and/or ammo cost a limiting factor? I.e. will shooting the 22 take away from shooting your 9mm? If so, I'd recommend dry fire instead of splitting your range time between dissimilar platforms.

I just don't believe buying a soft-shooting SAO competition-oriented 22 is going to do much to help you better shoot a snappy compact 9mm with a meh trigger (which I assume is your goal). 2 cases of 9mm and focused practice will do a lot more for you...

Yes, plan is to practice/train with 22 and use 9mm for the end result.
I burn through 100 rounds pretty quick.
That's $20 for 9mm and going every week to the range adds up.

Good to see different views on the use of 22LR for training.

[Mystery]

How big are your hands?
Not sure how to size hands but I use the 2nd largest grip on my m&p 9mm.

[jeep45238]

It's not on your list, but I've been shocked at the GSG 1911 - way better reliability than expected, multiple sight fights out of the box, and close enough to a 1911 that draw and trigger press work are really good proxies.

[farscott]

I am heavily invested in the Ruger Standard/MK pistol as I have been shooting them for more than forty-five years, but if I was starting today I would choose the S&W Victory as it has a robust aftermarket meaning people are buying it and the barrel is easily changed and is not serialized. The biggest negative of the Ruger design is the barreled receiver is the serialized firearm, so changing the barrel (length, profile, sight type, chamber type) essentially means buying a pistol. The Victory allows for the barrel to be swapped by the end user and the same gun can go from a plinker with a short light barrel to a heavy target barrel suitable for Bullseye.

I have a full-house Volquartsen-built Victory and it is the equal of any of my Volquartsen-built Ruger Standard pistols.

[Stephanie B]

A Ruger 22/45, with a Sam Lamm bushing (~$12, gets rid of the mag disconnect) and a Volquartsen trigger and sear (~$50) gets one pretty far. The Volquartsen sear is polished; it makes the factory sear look like a rough sand casting.

I shot Bullseye up until the last year. The line was almost entirely populated by shooters with some flavor of Ruger (Mk.* or 22/45). One guy had a S&W 41 that he had for decades. One had a Buckmark. Two had S&W revolvers (17 and 617). That area wasn't rich enough for anyone to afford the Euro-guns.

[hufnagel]

Still a big fan of my Beretta M9-22/Ruger SR-22/S&W 617 trifecta.

[Zincwarrior]

I have all three, like all three.

Two big points.

1) They are the same. All have a good base accuracy depending on the model. All can be tweaked into major bullseye guns. All can be used for steel challenge.

2) You really need to physically GRIP ALL THREE. The biggest difference is the grip, and particularly the grip angle. Ruger's grip angle is quite a bit different then the other two. People tend to gravitate to one or the other. Pick it up, swing it around and get a feel. Your own hands will quickly tell you which one you prefer.

[HeavyDuty]

I have way too many .22s, but the ones that get the most trigger time are:

1) M&P22c. I picked this up when I was still mostly M&P, and it just plain runs. I replaced the sights and added a barrel bushing that tightened up groups a bit. Reliability has been great.

2) Ruger 22/45 5.5” bull MkIV. My current favorite, reliable and accurate.

[OlongJohnson]

I've been shooting my P250C .22LR a lot lately. The fire control unit is identical to that of centerfire models, so the trigger press carries over. Really like it, and it's accurate. Only issues have been ammo issues that show up with other guns using the same ammo.

I am a Buck Mark dork. The forum at Rimfire Central is the best repository of information for them or, frankly, any other rimfire. Most people just lube and shoot them and blast them out with solvent every once in awhile. I'm OCD and go through them 100 percent. I don't buy upgrade parts, but every part that isn't a threaded fastener or pin gets worked on (if there wasn't something to make better, they wouldn't get worked on). The result is worth it to me. I haven't had a Ruger Mk, but my GP100 received essentially the same treatment, and came out seriously sweet.

I really like the legal interchangeability of Buck Mark barrels. If you want to try something different, go buy something different. They're cheap, and you can get them off fleabay.

The firing pin length should be checked and if necessary, adjusted to prevent peening the barrel. Rugers do that, too, so there's nothing in it between them.

[That Guy]

Ruger is the most popular but it is not that great from factory and needs few upgrades out of the box and a lot of upgrades to make it to the competition.

As a Ruger owner, I would really like to know what these upgrades are that the gun needs.

Lots of people like to tinker with their guns. In some competition cultures, tinkering is downright encouraged. Rarely is it necessary though.


Not sure how to size hands

I nominate Mechanix glove sizes as the universal measurement.

*

Anyways, I think you are seriously overthinking this. You can not rationally choose an optimal pistol for competition without even knowing what kind of competition you might be thinking about! And wasn't the original reason for this purchase "trying to develop basic marksmanship skills", not "must own customized competition pistol, my match scores depend on it"? Besides, you are a novice shooter, your taste in firearms is likely to mature over the years as you gain more experience. Trying to pick the gun that is optimal for you at the grand master level, while still being a novice, is not likely to succeed simply because you don't yet have grand master level knowledge of shooting. All you need to worry about at this point is not picking complete crap guns - and you have already done a really good job of that. Once you reach a sufficient level of quality, it's more personal preference than what is "best".

Each firearm you mentioned works fine (I have no direct experience with the Smith & Wesson, but it has a good reputation). Each will function just fine as a training pistol for basic marksmanship. You could honestly just throw dice or use some other random number generator to choose one at random, and be just fine. Or, you could try renting one for a few sessions at the range and see how it goes for you, if that is possible at the range you shoot. Get some experience with shooting a .22 and then make a more informed choice on what best works for you.

[LittleLebowski]

I'd do the M&P 22C (https://www.brownells.com/firearms/handguns/semi-auto/m-p22-compact-3-56in-22lr-black-10-1rd-prod92428.aspx).

[farscott]

As a Ruger owner, I would really like to know what these upgrades are that the gun needs.

Lots of people like to tinker with their guns. In some competition cultures, tinkering is downright encouraged. Rarely is it necessary though.

I see three areas where the Ruger needs improvement for competition, the trigger, the barrel, and the sights. The factory Ruger trigger, especially on those pistols with magazine disconnects, is heavy and creepy. The barrel needs to be more tightly chambered and needs a better crown for best accuracy. The sights are not the best for the small targets at the fifty-yard line.

[Baldanders]

I'd do the M&P 22C (https://www.brownells.com/firearms/handguns/semi-auto/m-p22-compact-3-56in-22lr-black-10-1rd-prod92428.aspx).

Considering your past posts here, I think LL's suggestion might make you happier than the three options you gave, however....

I own a Ruger Mk.II 4" tapered barrel, a late 80s Buck Mark 4" bull barrel, and a friend has a Victory that is "space gunned" out. If I was trying to build a pure target monster, I'd buy whatever platform was cheapest and worry more about accessories than the base gun. If I wanted a target gun without messing around with modifying it, I'd buy the nicest BuckMark I could afford with a long bull barrel and highly visable sights. If I wanted a field gun, I'd get a 4" Ruger like the one I have now.

I hope this is helpful.

[Baldanders]

One last datum: my friends and I all hate the safety on the Victory--it's easy to accidentally engage. Other than that, it's a nice platform.

[Mystery]

...
All you need to worry about at this point is not picking complete crap guns - and you have already done a really good job of that...
So Heritage Rough Rider 22LR is something that would be complete crap?
At $100, it's too tempting. :D


I'd do the M&P 22C (https://www.brownells.com/firearms/handguns/semi-auto/m-p22-compact-3-56in-22lr-black-10-1rd-prod92428.aspx).

That one and full size M&P 22LR is always in my radar as it is same as M&P9 for controls and grip etc... and 22c is only $260. Hmm...

[OlongJohnson]

If I wanted a target gun without messing around with modifying it, I'd buy the nicest BuckMark I could afford with a long bull barrel and highly visible sights.

Not sure Mystery cares at this point, but for the rest of you, an older Buck Mark Bullseye is probably the way to go in this area. They all have 7 1/4-in. bull barrels with some fluting on the sides. The older models had the full Silhouette package: triggers drilled for an overtravel screw from the factory and a low-tension sear spring with an adjustable pretension screw, so you can get the trigger weight really light. Those springs stopped being available from any source I can find in ~2015. If someone has any sitting around, I'd like to buy a few.

Browning has sold Silhouette and Bullseye models in the past few years, but without the Silhouette trigger goodies.

[Wyoming Shooter]

I have three .22 rimfire pistols:

Kimber 1911. Surprisingly, this thing runs great. Of course, it mimics all things 1911 except .45 ACP recoil and ammo cost. :)

Ruger 22/45 Lite with Vortex Venom RDS and Thunderbeast 22 TD can. This is SO much fun to shoot. It prefers cheap CCI standard velocity ammo too. I do have an occasional issue with 2nd round FTFs. Still trying to diagnose the problem.

S&W 617. Mine is the 4". Absolutely no issues with this one and a decent trigger too. It also likes CCI standard velocity.

These pistols permit me to shoot more for less. Win - win!

[LittleLebowski]

I'm honestly shocked at how much I prefer my S&W M&P22 with iron sights over my Ruger 22/45 with a red dot. Both are suppressed, of course :D

[That Guy]

I see three areas where the Ruger needs improvement for competition, the trigger, the barrel, and the sights. The factory Ruger trigger, especially on those pistols with magazine disconnects, is heavy and creepy. The barrel needs to be more tightly chambered and needs a better crown for best accuracy. The sights are not the best for the small targets at the fifty-yard line.

Fair enough. But I think you are approaching the topic from a different perspective. Mystery was claiming the gun needs modifications right out of the box, and even more modifications in order to be usable in a competition setting. I still disagree with that. The way I use mine is typically stapling a few post-it notes onto a cardboard backer and then shooting at those at 25 meters, using the cheapest bulk ammunition possible (ie. that works and gives decent accuracy - no Remington ammo in other words :) ). While your points are fair, in my use I can still get about a 2" group on one of those post-it notes using cheap ammunition, regardless of the trigger creep. (And if someone were to ever start running Steel Challenge matches local to me, blasting at those big steel plates, the stuff you mentioned would matter even less.) Which is good enough for my use, and would be good enough for Mystery for a good while. Once one starts to feed the gun match grade ammunition that costs more than bulk 9mm and shooting at much longer ranges, then it's a different matter - but it takes a good amount of practice to get to the level where any of that truly matters.

[TDA]

Fundamentals like not moving the sights, aim, just the basic skills without spending $$$ on 9mm.
See above for competition...


Yes, plan is to practice/train with 22 and use 9mm for the end result.
I burn through 100 rounds pretty quick.

If there’s a .22 version of your carry pistol, there’s a good argument for getting the similar platform. However, if you want a .22 pistol for training fundamentals of marksmanship, just go handle some and get one with a nice trigger and sights. The important thing is to buy one and start practicing fundamentals.

[farscott]

Fair enough. But I think you are approaching the topic from a different perspective. Mystery was claiming the gun needs modifications right out of the box, and even more modifications in order to be usable in a competition setting. I still disagree with that. The way I use mine is typically stapling a few post-it notes onto a cardboard backer and then shooting at those at 25 meters, using the cheapest bulk ammunition possible (ie. that works and gives decent accuracy - no Remington ammo in other words :) ). While your points are fair, in my use I can still get about a 2" group on one of those post-it notes using cheap ammunition, regardless of the trigger creep. (And if someone were to ever start running Steel Challenge matches local to me, blasting at those big steel plates, the stuff you mentioned would matter even less.) Which is good enough for my use, and would be good enough for Mystery for a good while. Once one starts to feed the gun match grade ammunition that costs more than bulk 9mm and shooting at much longer ranges, then it's a different matter - but it takes a good amount of practice to get to the level where any of that truly matters.

Agreed. The stock Ruger Standard-pattern pistols are capable pistols. The .22 LR pistol I shoot the most is one of two Ruger Standards RST-6 models I have. These are essentially factory guns with a Cerakote finish to better deal with hot humid Alabama weather. One has the A54 frame with the magazine follower button on the right side, and the other has the A100 frame with the magazine follower button on the left slde like all of the successor models. The benefit of the A100 frame is it works with new magazines. The A54-framed pistol from 1964 with an original nine-round chrome base magazine is my usual field gun and has done well in informal competitions because I know POA/POI at the distances at which I shoot. I even did a turkey shoot with it and won a turkey. The A100-framed pistol from 1977 is compatible with my Ultimate Cliploader due to the modern location of the magazine follower button. As such, I shoot that gun when I know I have to reload magazines. It is a fine steel plate pistol with the light profile barrel. That pistol will be shot today.

I have no idea how many rounds that A54-framed gun has seen. At one time, I kept the empty boxes folded flat as a rough round count indicator. I tossed the boxes when we moved back in 2007. That pistol is my primary tool for working on trigger control. I can shoot two-inch groups at twenty-five yards with the pistol.

As for ammo to avoid due to issues, both Remington and Winchester are on my "Do not buy" list. Lack of consistency and too many duds. My go-to ammo is CCI Standard Velocity although I love plinking with the CCI Patriot Packs. The CCI SV groups under an inch at twenty-five yards and under three inches at fifty yards IF I do my part with one of my full-house Volquartsen pistols. The tighter groups are the result of the Volquartsen improved trigger, barrel, and sights.

[revchuck38]

I shot bullseye, both UIT and 2700, in the 80s and 90s. I used two Ruger MKIIs with 5-1/2" bull barrels. The first was sold to finance a move, the second I still have. Its only modifications are a Clark rear sight and a trigger job by Clark's and a set of custom Hoffman grips. With its preferred ammo (Eley National Match) it was an honest <2" gun at 50 yards. I used Federal Champion for practice and that would hold <2" at 25 yards. I don't remember it not feeding and chambering anything I loaded into a magazine, but then I didn't try the absolute cheapest ammo I could find.

If I were just starting out today, I'd probably get a current Ruger 22/45 with the 5-1/2" bull barrel and maybe get a trigger job. OTOH, if I were getting it as an understudy to my carry gun, I'd get whatever matches my carry gun.

[That Guy]

While your points are fair, in my use I can still get about a 2" group on one of those post-it notes using cheap ammunition, regardless of the trigger creep.

Well that statement turned out to be horse shit.

I may have mentioned that I have had difficulties getting to the range this year. So it's been a while since I last shot my .22 pistol - as in, I last shot it sometime back in 2018. Well, in the last week or so I have managed to do two range trips with it. The first one was a disaster, but I blame the ammo - extremely inconsistent recoil, stovepipes with the lighter recoiling rounds, etc. Very cheap stuff, and seems to work fine in rifles, but definitely not something you want to feed a short barreled pistol with. The second time, I brought a brick of CCI Standard Velocity (also sometimes known by some as Ye Olde Reliable) with me - and I barely managed to shoot a 3" group at best. So yeah, either I was exaggerating a bit, or I've forgotten how to shoot that pistol, or this lot of ammunition isn't as good as previous ones - whatever the reason, 2" groups at 25 meters are at present beyond my capabilities.

Few interesting observations, while I'm at it: during live fire I do not notice the creep in the trigger, at all. Also, while the front sight is indeed a fat one, at this sort of use (shooting at standard 3" by 3" post-it notes at 25 meters), I did not mind it. Sure, I have to actually align the target so that it is in the middle of my front sight instead of aligning my front sight with my target, but at least I can still see the bloody thing... :p

Anyways, while my shooting may not be particularly impressive, I still maintain my opinion that a stock Ruger works fine as a generic marksmanship practice tool. And hey - I paid about $150 for mine (bought used, naturally), so it wasn't particularly expensive to buy either. :)

38645

(And yes, the gun has a rail but no optical sight. I used to have a cheap Russian red dot on it, but it broke. And yes, it is threaded for a suppressor, but I do not have a functional one at present.)

[That Guy]

Forgot this picture. One of the better groups of the day:

38647

[farscott]

Since you mentioned it has been difficult to get range time this year, I assume the larger groups were the result of a lack of practice, not any shortcomings of the pistol or ammo. We know that handgun shooting is a very perishable skill. I expect that after some practice, your groups will shrink down to the size you expected.