Out with the Italians and in with the Austrians

[ASH556]

Last week I sold my Berettas and jumped headfirst into Glock again. The reasons for leaving Beretta were basically that I had accomplished what I set out to do:
-Learn to run a DA/SA gun
-See if Beretta was somehow magically more accurate than a Glock (not really, for me anyway)
-Enjoy the "soul" aspect of a non-plastic striker gun and just try something else.

And I found that:
-They're heavy
-They're thick
-They don't shoot that much better (if any); but they are easier to shoot (heavier frame + lighter trigger = easier to shoot)
-Simplicity has a soul all its own.

So with that out of the way, I picked up a pair of Gen 5 MOS G19's. Further, karmapolice was kind enough to lend me one of his ACRO's. I really went with the MOS guns to get the non-cutout front straps. The ability to mount optics was secondary. I went with G19's over G45's because of better concealability.

So far they shoot great. I am going to have to get shorter front sights from Ameriglo, which kinda sucks, but oh well, it's only money, right? The .180 fronts are hitting drive-the-dot for me vs my preferred tops of blades sight picture.

Some 25yd groups with the irons gun (I'm holding top of black on the B8):

https://i.imgur.com/nzgpvs1l.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/2uDUUYxl.jpg

And then the ACRO gun after a preliminary 7yd zero:

https://i.imgur.com/VE6iEDcl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/rbzt9DJl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/biFKgZTl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/UmN1mSml.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/H3NAkLYl.jpg

The groups definitely tighten up with the ACRO, but I worked some speed stuff from the holster (draw 2H, Bills) and found myself to be slower and less accurate with the ACRO than what I could pick up the iron-sighted gun and do. I'm sure it's a training thing, but I'm not sure I'm ready to dedicate that much time, money, ammo to learning a new sighting system for close, fast, defensive shooting just to score a little better at 25yds.

[TC215]

What kind of sights do you have on there now? The Gen5 19’s come with .200 front sights, which seems to be drive the dot for most people. I switched to a .180 front sight, but it moved the POI up too much. I ended up getting a .190 from Ameriglo, and that seems to just right.

[ASH556]

What kind of sights do you have on there now? The Gen5 19’s come with .200 front sights, which seems to be drive the dot for most people. I switched to a .180 front sight, but it moved the POI up too much. I ended up getting a .190 from Ameriglo, and that seems to just right.

The sights are Ameriglo .180 front .256 rear that I had on my G45 before I put the adjustable Dawsons on.

[Hambo]

Traditore! Sei morto per me.

[Matt O]

I'm sure it's a training thing, but I'm not sure I'm ready to dedicate that much time, money, ammo to learning a new sighting system for close, fast, defensive shooting just to score a little better at 25yds.

While I have just barely started my RDS journey, I am not sure that's an accurate summary of what one ultimately gains with red dot proficiency. Rather, I think it's just an example of the immediate gain you get as a beginner with a RDS.

Ultimately, it seems one can get approximately just as fast as irons up close, while allowing an enhanced sense of precision at all distances, obviating the need for visual focal plane changes and also improving one's trigger pull (due to the enhanced feedback a dot brings regarding the gun's movement during the firing sequence).

[jetfire]

I feel obligated as the designated Beretta shill to point out that Beretta makes polymer framed guns that use strikers.

[10mmfanboy]

I was made painfully aware by a well known holster maker today that there wasn't enough interest in my berettas to make a holster for it. It sucks cause I really like my berettas but hammer fired is dead apparently, especially if you want a wml on it.

I came to the same conclusion shooting my glocks against my berettas and it ultimately turned out to be a tie for me. I was hoping for a clear winner but I guess I just proved I'll shoot whatever pistol about the same.

The clear winner is definitely glock for carry. Can't compete with weight and thinness.

[ADKilla]

I feel obligated as the designated Beretta shill to point out that Beretta makes polymer framed guns that use strikers.

...and shoot every bit as good as a Glock or better.

[Vista461]

I was made painfully aware by a well known holster maker today that there wasn't enough interest in my berettas to make a holster for it. It sucks cause I really like my berettas but hammer fired is dead apparently, especially if you want a wml on it.

I came to the same conclusion shooting my glocks against my berettas and it ultimately turned out to be a tie for me. I was hoping for a clear winner but I guess I just proved I'll shoot whatever pistol about the same.

The clear winner is definitely glock for carry. Can't compete with weight and thinness.

Dark Star Gear just came out with a holster for 92’s. So at least some are making them.

[GJM]

The groups definitely tighten up with the ACRO, but I worked some speed stuff from the holster (draw 2H, Bills) and found myself to be slower and less accurate with the ACRO than what I could pick up the iron-sighted gun and do. I'm sure it's a training thing, but I'm not sure I'm ready to dedicate that much time, money, ammo to learning a new sighting system for close, fast, defensive shooting just to score a little better at 25yds.

Of course, if you are willing to put the effort in to truly learn to shoot a dot, you will be better at so much more than just 25 yard shooting. The dot is the ultimate software investment.

[jetfire]

I was made painfully aware by a well known holster maker today that there wasn't enough interest in my berettas to make a holster for it. It sucks cause I really like my berettas but hammer fired is dead apparently, especially if you want a wml on it.

I came to the same conclusion shooting my glocks against my berettas and it ultimately turned out to be a tie for me. I was hoping for a clear winner but I guess I just proved I'll shoot whatever pistol about the same.

The clear winner is definitely glock for carry. Can't compete with weight and thinness.

There are several good options for Beretta holsters on the market. As mentioned above, Dark Star Gear (https://darkstargear.com/product/92orion/) has dropped their Orion for the 92-series, and I've been using one for my 92 Compact for several months now. It's awesome, and if you use code "ratfink" at checkout you'll save 10% off your order.

Also, Keeper's Concealment has 92 holsters, and so does JM Custom Kydex. If you want traditional IWB, Galco makes their royal guard IWB leather holster for the regular 92 Series, it won't fit any of the railed guns but a classic profiled gun will work.

Okay I'm done now I promise

[ASH556]

Of course, if you are willing to put the effort in to truly learn to shoot a dot, you will be better at so much more than just 25 yard shooting. The dot is the ultimate software investment.

On this point: I discovered something last night in dry reps that I think may be the key to unlocking close speed with the dot (at least for me). I found that as soon in the draw/pressout process as my eyes picked up the dot, I was involuntarily stopping the draw/pressout at that point and then trying to muscle the dot into the center of the target. However, if I forced myself to ignore the initial "sighting of the dot" and continue my draw/pressout to my normal index position, the dot would magically land in the center of the target by itself. This was working from high compressed ready and draw to a 1.5" dot at about 6 yds. This thing of trying to shoot from a not fully-developed grip/pressout would also explain why my first shots were good, but I couldn't control recoil or track the dot at all.

So, I guess the lesson is trust your mechanics and don't fight the dot.

[ASH556]

There are several good options for Beretta holsters on the market. As mentioned above, Dark Star Gear (https://darkstargear.com/product/92orion/) has dropped their Orion for the 92-series, and I've been using one for my 92 Compact for several months now. It's awesome, and if you use code "ratfink" at checkout you'll save 10% off your order.

Also, Keeper's Concealment has 92 holsters, and so does JM Custom Kydex. If you want traditional IWB, Galco makes their royal guard IWB leather holster for the regular 92 Series, it won't fit any of the railed guns but a classic profiled gun will work.

Okay I'm done now I promise

Mitch Rosen doesn't list it on their site, but you can get their Express line for a 92A1 even!

Still, there's no denying you can get pretty much any holster you want for a Glock. Not so with the Beretta.

Finally, and maybe this is an unfair comparison, but due to the Gen 5 19's grip mods (lack of finger grooves, flared magwell) I can, for the first time, REALLY work with a G19 vs a G17. So from a size, weight, concealment perspective, it's not an apples to apples comparison against a Beretta 92 at all. But, it's the facts I'm working with.

[Doc_Glock]

I am very interested in your journey. The more I shoot other stuff the more I come back to Glock and I think a G19 MOS plus ACRO will be a hardware expense that actually leads to improving my shooting. Not because of the hardware, but from the coaching/feedback it provides.

[Gadfly]

Why sell the Beretta's? Its not like they go stale if you leave them in the safe too long.

I carry Glock daily, but that is no reason to dump my 92s. IF I simply HAD to carry a hammer fired gun, the 92G Vertec would be the one.

I am getting close to jumping from the Glock to the 320 as duty weapon. But I wont sell of my Glocks if I do. I will probably run the 320 for a year and decide if the juice was worth the squeeze, or if I am going back to "old reliable" (aka glock).

(That being said, I have far more pistols than I need, but I also see no need in dumping most of them. Nostalgia and use helping new shooters try multiple platforms has me hanging on to a lot. )

[ASH556]

Why sell the Beretta's? Its not like they go stale if you leave them in the safe too long.

I carry Glock daily, but that is no reason to dump my 92s. IF I simply HAD to carry a hammer fired gun, the 92G Vertec would be the one.

I am getting close to jumping from the Glock to the 320 as duty weapon. But I wont sell of my Glocks if I do. I will probably run the 320 for a year and decide if the juice was worth the squeeze, or if I am going back to "old reliable" (aka glock).

(That being said, I have far more pistols than I need, but I also see no need in dumping most of them. Nostalgia and use helping new shooters try multiple platforms has me hanging on to a lot. )

Allocation of resources and limited funds man. Sell to buy.

[ASH556]

On this point: I discovered something last night in dry reps that I think may be the key to unlocking close speed with the dot (at least for me). I found that as soon in the draw/pressout process as my eyes picked up the dot, I was involuntarily stopping the draw/pressout at that point and then trying to muscle the dot into the center of the target. However, if I forced myself to ignore the initial "sighting of the dot" and continue my draw/pressout to my normal index position, the dot would magically land in the center of the target by itself. This was working from high compressed ready and draw to a 1.5" dot at about 6 yds. This thing of trying to shoot from a not fully-developed grip/pressout would also explain why my first shots were good, but I couldn't control recoil or track the dot at all.

So, I guess the lesson is trust your mechanics and don't fight the dot.

And here we go. I'm not going to say "I've got it" yet, but it's definitely better than yesterday. Basically trust the index, confirm visually, press the trigger cleanly. I am still chasing the dot some, but it's significantly less than yesterday and just a slight vertical dip instead of all over the place. 70 more rounds fired today, 59 of which were focused on draws and close speed stuff.

20 reps draw to 8" circle @ 7yds. See that little cluster around the "-0?" That's called getting it right!

https://i.imgur.com/Qn6VQKMl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/cZZy2thl.jpg

10 reps draw to "head" @ 7yds.

https://i.imgur.com/ffxvNpFl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/TQ2w3cQl.jpg

Then I worked through some segments of the Gabe White tests. The 2H is where I could never quite get there. I'm not sure if it's trigger or sight tracking, but I'm thinking more sight tracking since it's purely vertical.

https://i.imgur.com/gVagPVbl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/TU6WC2el.jpg

Here's the whole target with all the times. All the misses were just like the 2H runs above where they were just below the scoring area:

https://i.imgur.com/FeRVxpBl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/Yy0i92Zl.jpg

And then of course I had to shoot at least one 25yd group. Almost hit that 100 today dangit!

https://i.imgur.com/ymq1T4Ol.jpg

[1Rangemaster]

Nice to hear Gen5 19 MOS working out for you. And I believe the dry practice will continue to be beneficial.
GJM had an observation in some thread where he focused on driving his knuckles to target. That, plus consciously thinking to open my eyes wide and focus on target helped me.
200+ round initial shooting session also began to “dial” me in. It’s a journey; I have found the past couple of days dryfiring that I’m fairly comfortable with two hands, getting their with primary from the presentation and working on support index-no earth shattering surprise. Next live session, I’m working at 3-10 yards to test and evaluate.

[1Rangemaster]

And here we go. I'm not going to say "I've got it" yet, but it's definitely better than yesterday. Basically trust the index, confirm visually, press the trigger cleanly. I am still chasing the dot some, but it's significantly less than yesterday and just a slight vertical dip instead of all over the place. 70 more rounds fired today, 59 of which were focused on draws and close speed stuff.

20 reps draw to 8" circle @ 7yds. See that little cluster around the "-0?" That's called getting it right!

https://i.imgur.com/Qn6VQKMl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/cZZy2thl.jpg

10 reps draw to "head" @ 7yds.

https://i.imgur.com/ffxvNpFl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/TQ2w3cQl.jpg

Then I worked through some segments of the Gabe White tests. The 2H is where I could never quite get there. I'm not sure if it's trigger or sight tracking, but I'm thinking more sight tracking since it's purely vertical.

https://i.imgur.com/gVagPVbl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/TU6WC2el.jpg

Here's the whole target with all the times. All the misses were just like the 2H runs above where they were just below the scoring area:

https://i.imgur.com/FeRVxpBl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/Yy0i92Zl.jpg

And then of course I had to shoot at least one 25yd group. Almost hit that 100 today dangit!

https://i.imgur.com/ymq1T4Ol.jpg

There’s (and I’m sure you realize) an offset. Might be worth a few rounds slowfire on a dot or paster to “see” that...

[feudist]

I finally listened to some of Steve Anderson's podcasts.

I also started his "12 Commandments"(the first 12 drills in his first book) and learned about Speed Mode and Match Mode.

A couple of weeks into a regular dryfire program and sub-second draws are now the norm. My vision is increasing and I see the dot well.

I'm a believer.

[willie]

The B92 when loaded with safety on makes an almost foolproof night stand or sock drawer weapon. When hot, it does not require a holster or trigger cover to maintain a comfortable degree of safe handling. I write from my own experience. We differ on degrees of comfort. I cut my teeth as a youth carrying and shooting a Walther P38. Hence, B92 controls are second nature for me. CDNN Sports lists these pistols as too low to advertise. Everybody needs one. Yes, they are too big, too heavy, and too thick. Carry something else.

[Medusa]

I think they carry better than their size would suggest. I just carried one ccw the other day, to have a backup for class. With a good holster it’s not that difficult for me.

If LTT really does offer a compact I’ll certainly get one and see how it carries. I love my px4s but the 92 was my first love and it goes back a long, long way.


The B92 when loaded with safety on makes an almost foolproof night stand or sock drawer weapon. When hot, it does not require a holster or trigger cover to maintain a comfortable degree of safe handling. I write from my own experience. We differ on degrees of comfort. I cut my teeth as a youth carrying and shooting a Walther P38. Hence, B92 controls are second nature for me. CDNN Sports lists these pistols as too low to advertise. Everybody needs one. Yes, they are too big, too heavy, and too thick. Carry something else.

[Duke]

I was made painfully aware by a well known holster maker today that there wasn't enough interest in my berettas to make a holster for it. It sucks cause I really like my berettas but hammer fired is dead apparently, especially if you want a wml on it.



Beating a dead horse here but I’ve got an axe to grind with a lot of “well known holster makers “

It’s my opinion that most plastic folders think themselves a more important part of the industry than they are


Keepers, JM and darkstar as noted actually care what you need and will build it.


So some other maker who churns out multi colored Glock holsters ( and panders to the IG audience of shooters) because it’s easy doesn’t really effect my desire to use a beretta based off their opinion of its interest.

And while we’re at it....it’s a beretta 92...... Not an Amt automag with a peq-15. Not sure why folks treat it as an impossible to fit for kydex weapon.

Rant off

[ASH556]

Beating a dead horse here but I’ve got an axe to grind with a lot of “well known holster makers “

It’s my opinion that most plastic folders think themselves a more important part of the industry than they are


Keepers, JM and darkstar as noted actually care what you need and will build it.


So some other maker who churns out multi colored Glock holsters ( and panders to the IG audience of shooters) because it’s easy doesn’t really effect my desire to use a beretta based off their opinion of its interest.

And while we’re at it....it’s a beretta 92...... Not an Amt automag with a peq-15. Not sure why folks treat it as an impossible to fit for kydex weapon.

Rant off

Lol, you're not wrong.

[Cory]

I love the 92s. I mean seriously love them. They just feel right to me, and some of that is likely learning the fundamentals of shooting on the M9. I carry a 92.

But... i will never sell my Glock. 17.4 just plain runs. In a perfect world I'd have a matching (or close to) carry, compete, house, and backup for 92s and Glocks. Eventually I probably will. But the 92s come first.

The only thing that Glock gets the nod over the 92 on (for me) is salt water exposure. Maybe there is something else where the performance is different enough to matter to me but I cant think of it at the moment.

Like em both. But one is more equal.

-Cory

[JonInWA]

I realize that we've already significantly beaten the dead horse, but the thickness issue on a Beretta 92 is easily addressed by switching to Langdon LTT/VZ/Wilson ultra-thin grips (they're all made by VZ, but with differing details.

Which platform is more desirable between Beretta 92 (DA/SA or DAO) and Glock (SFA) depends on your criteria/use venue. If it's pure shootability, the Glock is probably an easier platform, but if it's threat management, a DA/SA or DAO has much to recommend.

Best, Jon

[StraitR]

Good stuff, Ash. I carried a steel framed 1911 for two of the last three years. Gadget brought me back to Glock early 2018, and the weight difference is obvious, particularly after 9-10 hours.

[10mmfanboy]

Thank you everyone for all the help with finding holsters, I really appreciate it!

I guess I was a little butt hurt over the holster makers statement, just kind of took me by surprise I guess. I'm tired of ppl being dickish about what I choose to carry. I started on DA/SA and probably only got into glocks about 11 years ago. Like others have stated, both have their merits and I don't plan on changing what I carry because it's not the cool thing at the moment. But what sparked my interest to actually go backwards of this thread going from carrying glock back to beretta is kind of stupid but really got me thinking. I still had my headphones on after practicing and they boost volume when you aren't shooting so it amplified the sounds I was hearing. Long story short I heard loud rustling in the woods by the field I shoot in and I thought it might be another boar again. Instinctively I drew my pistol and it turned out it was only a ground hog. But what I realized was my finger was already in the trigger guard resting on the trigger. Not cool at all! I know it is my fault but... I keep thinking what if that was a person, a person that didn't need to be shot.

[willie]

I think they carry better than their size would suggest. I just carried one ccw the other day, to have a backup for class. With a good holster it’s not that difficult for me.

If LTT really does offer a compact I’ll certainly get one and see how it carries. I love my px4s but the 92 was my first love and it goes back a long, long way.

In one of your early posts you referred to a brand of leather holsters that has worked for you with the Beretta’s. Kramer rings a bell in my dim mind. If you would, please share this again since many find holster choices to be lacking for the Berettas.

[Medusa]

That one I carry in a Kramer iwb3.


In one of your early posts you referred to a brand of leather holsters that has worked for you with the Beretta’s. Kramer rings a bell in my dim mind. If you would, please share this again since many find holster choices to be lacking for the Berettas.

[UNM1136]

Ash,

I followed a similar path. You will eventually reaquire another DA/SA gun, if only for nostalgia and to convince yourself you can still run the trigger. I am finding myself longing for my Sig that was my first duty gun. Nothing wrong with the Glock. Currently setting one up as my last duty piece. Gonna run it with an Acro for the last decade of a hopefully 30 year career. Currently trying to finangle a deal on an Inox 92SF, but really any DA/SA auto will scratch that increasingly annoying itch.

pat