Analysis: What do these targets say about my shooting?

[Mystery]

I realize that if I don't think about not flinching, I flinch.
Not only flinch, sometimes I close my eyes when I press trigger.
Very bad.
Here are few targets from today.
Am I improving?
Anything that stands out to improve?

5 yards:
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/47820254722_e7f3324394_b.jpg

7 yards: one went on the edge
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/47083160774_b6670405c6_b.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/47083160864_c4093d6c2c_b.jpg

10 yards: one was way off due to flinching
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/47083160904_0978d854ec_b.jpg

[0ddl0t]

My recommendation is to alternate loading the magazine with 1 live round, 1 dummy round, 1 live round, 1 dummy, etc and just focus on the front sight while keeping the gun still through the trigger press.

[psalms144.1]

There's a lot to unpack there. There is a little bit of low/left bias, which, with a right handed shooter, USUALLY indicates issues with trigger control, finger placement on trigger, etc.

There's a LOT of pattern scatter, which USUALLY indicates a lack of front sight focus - and/or lack of consistency in fundamentals. I SUSPECT that like a lot of shooters, you're performance driven, so you MIGHT be looking at the target between shots, then breaking the next shot without having reestablished a good sight picture. You can get away with target focused shooting, but all your other fundamentals have to be rock solid before you do...

My advice, worth precisely what you're paying for it, is this:

1. Find an instructor who can give you some quality one-on-one and focus on the fundamentals - grip, trigger control, sight picture, sight alignment, follow thru/sight tracking, etc.

2. If you can't/won't find an instructor, find a different range. Preferably an outdoor range with good lighting and less distractions from shooters around you. Then load NO MORE THAN 5 rounds per magazine, and shoot 5-shot strings, focusing on trigger control, grip, sights until you're shooting one hole groups at 3 yards on a small target (DOT TORTURE targets work great for this - printable and plenty of dots). Use a clean "dot" for each string of 5 shots, and WATCH YOUR SIGHTS in recoil. If the front sight isn't lifting straight up out of the notch and coming straight back down, you're introducing deflection into your groups through poor trigger control and/or grip. If you want to know how to fix that, see #1 above, 'cuz NO ONE can "train" you in the basics over the internet (sorry).

[RJ]

What Psalms said.

Random thoughts from someone who started shooting five years ago.

Moar Dry Practice

This is a good starter point for Dry Practice. It helped me, a lot. I went from shooting low right (I am a lefty) in 2014 over the course of time that I can group 10 slow fire on a B-8 (scoring, not in the black, but on the paper) at 25 yards.

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?7708-Dry-Practice-Misconceptions-Updated-01-22-19&highlight=practice

Even 10 minutes a day of Wall Drill can help a lot.

Grip Harder

I have a Glock, so this might not apply. But I started with a M&P FS9, not unlike your Compact, and shot thousands of rounds through it with the same hinged trigger. I have found the harder I grip, in slow or rapid fire, the more it seems to isolate the trigger press.

See the Front Sight

I've found I really have to watch the front sight. No peeking at the target. In practice sometimes I wear a set of these:

https://www.amazon.com/Elvex-WELRX450C20-RX-450C-2-0-Diopter-Glasses/dp/B00XPSC20A

I don't see well close up, so the + magnification of the lenses allow me to pick up the front sight during the press and I can then see if it is moving.

Establish some Metrics

Pick a target that you can numerically score and track it over time.

I've selected three; a 25 yard B-8 with 10 shots, slow fire. A drill called "The Test", which is 10 shots in 10 seconds at 10 yards on a B-8. Lastly I use Find Your Level, which is a 10 shot drill on a 1" square (1 shot), 2" circle (2), 3" square (3), and 4" circle (4) starting at 3 yards, going out as you get better.

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?33899-Week-295-Finding-Your-Level

I have a spreadsheet and I do and record these drills every time I go to the range, so I can see how I improve.

Keep at it! I still say you are better than 90% of the people I see at the gun range. Good for you for trying to get better.

p-f is awesome in that regard and even though I basically suck at shooting, people are still very willing to help out.

[UNM1136]

Agree fully with what has been said so far about getting good one on one instruction and dry fire....

One issue I have been having lately leads me to mention:
Do you shoot with only one eye or both eyes open? Have you identified your dominant eye? When was the last time you had your eyes checked?

My issues came upon me gradually, are ongoing, and really hurt my shooting.

While some generalities can be gleaned via pictures on the internet, video is better, and nothing beats a knowledgeable instructor watching you while you shoot and then evaluating your target.

pat

[Clusterfrack]

Mystery, your 10yd target is pretty good. Cut yourself some slack. Shooting handguns is not easy. I agree with Psalms on everything. A good instructor can save you time, money, and a lot of frustration.

Safely dry firing at home on a regular basis can be a big help in learning to press the trigger straight back without moving the sights.

Anticipating the recoil and trying to oppose is with your muscles is very common, and you need to work hard to get past that. However, even the best shooters sometimes mis-time their shot and have a "pre-ignition push". So cut yourself some slack about this as well.

Closing your eyes is a huge problem, but also not uncommon. Of all the things you mentioned, this is the most important to get past. Try earmuffs over good earplugs. Use good safety glasses. Try shooting outdoors. You could try shooting a .22. But until you can keep your eyes open during the entire firing process, you will not be able to improve your shooting beyond a basic level.

Try shooting the gun without worrying about your hits. Just watch the whole process of firing. Look for the muzzle flash and the ejected shell. Watch how the muzzle jumps and try to track the "orbit" of the sights. Just let the gun recoil. Then bring it back on target and fire again. This can burn a lot of ammo.

[RJ]

My recommendation is to alternate loading the magazine with 1 live round, 1 dummy round, 1 live round, 1 dummy, etc and just focus on the front sight while keeping the gun still through the trigger press.

I've done this and am always surprised how much my front sight moves in recoil on a dummy round. :cool:

[That Guy]

You could try shooting a .22.

In my opinion this could be very helpful. The smaller recoil of a .22 really bridges the gap between dry fire and a larger caliber handgun - I believe the phrase "ballistic dry fire" has been used on this forum to describe practice with a .22. Probably would produce tighter groups as well, which can feel encouraging.

[RJ]

I held a Walther P22 (?) the other week at the Fun Store. I was pretty tempted to pick one up as a training tool.


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[Clusterfrack]

I held a Walther P22 (?) the other week at the Fun Store. I was pretty tempted to pick one up as a training tool.


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The Sig Mosquito and Walther p22 are very low quality guns. I recommend a Ruger Mark 3 or Mark 4.

[RJ]

The Sig Mosquito and Walther p22 are very low quality guns. I recommend a Ruger Mark 3 or Mark 4.

I'll say it (the P22) felt extremely inexpensive.

Ok I am familiar with Ruger, I have an LCR and a New Model Blackhawk. I'll look into a Mark 3 or Mark 4. Thanks for the tip!

ETA: Interesting: $295 at Buds:

https://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/35395

Hmmm....

[Clusterfrack]

I'll say it (the P22) felt extremely inexpensive.

Ok I am familiar with Ruger, I have an LCR and a New Model Blackhawk. I'll look into a Mark 3 or Mark 4. Thanks for the tip!

It's one of the "tacticool" .22 pistols that have a zinc "pot metal" slide. Basically a toy airsoft gun that shoots real bullets. I've personally seen two of them fall apart on the range. A well-worn Mark 2 or 3 could be had for a similar price.

[Mystery]

Thanks for replies and suggestion.
Too many things to keep in mind and when I remember all the things like front sight focus, level the sights, gap between the sights, slow trigger squeeze etc..., I hit pretty good but I keep on forgetting few of those often and mess up.
One thing I noticed recently, when I try to level the front and rear sights, it looks like not only I have to raise/lower the muzzle but also tilt.
For some weird reason, looks like my left rear sight is slightly lower than right so I have to tilt little to the right and upwards.
It's not the sights, just the way I stand or stretch my hands or my left hand grip is weak or maybe my left leg is few mm shorter than right leg? :D
Do you guys ever have to tilt to level? When I say tilt, I mean I have to raise/adjust my left hand/grip so left sight goes up slightly.
That's another thing to get used to as I naturally, left side seems slightly lower and even it's little bit, at 7 yards, it's a lot.


My recommendation is to alternate loading the magazine with 1 live round, 1 dummy round, 1 live round, 1 dummy, etc and just focus on the front sight while keeping the gun still through the trigger press.
I don't use dummy round. I load one in the chamber and take magazine out.
The follow up empty squeeze, even though I know it's empty, often shows my flinch and closing eye.
I don't want to use dummy round at the range as I have to unload it and it may fall behind the red lines.


...so you MIGHT be looking at the target between shots, then breaking the next shot without having reestablished a good sight picture. You can get away with target focused shooting, but all your other fundamentals have to be rock solid before you do...

My advice, worth precisely what you're paying for it, is this:

1. Find an instructor who can give you some quality one-on-one and focus on the fundamentals - grip, trigger control, sight picture, sight alignment, follow thru/sight tracking, etc.

Yes, I do check my target after each shot, except at the end of my session where I unload a mag just for the fun. :D
I'm checking classes, just not sure what to sign up. I'll see if there's private lesson.


What Psalms said.

Random thoughts from someone who started shooting five years ago.

Moar Dry Practice
Grip Harder
See the Front Sight

Keep at it! I still say you are better than 90% of the people I see at the gun range. Good for you for trying to get better.

p-f is awesome in that regard and even though I basically suck at shooting, people are still very willing to help out.
Thanks for motivation.
I do feel like my hands are getting some used to the gun now.
I'm still trying to get a good grip where the web is right behind the gun.
Naturally, the back of gun stays little bit towards the thumb until I move my elbow little inside.

Dry fire is seriously lacking.
Last few sessions of once a week range time, I touched the gun only when going to range.
Too busy with work and family.
I'll find some time for dry fire. I bought ST Action pro dummy rounds.

It's too many things to remember.
My left hand grip is weak or let's say not used to gripping anything for extended time so that needs some time to develop.

One thing I haven't done is watching the gun after recoil.
I'll check that next time if it goes up and down or sideways.


Agree fully with what has been said so far about getting good one on one instruction and dry fire....

One issue I have been having lately leads me to mention:
Do you shoot with only one eye or both eyes open? Have you identified your dominant eye? When was the last time you had your eyes checked?
...
I shoot with one eye, my right eye.
I'm right eye/hand dominant and it was confirmed in my "Introduction to pistol class".
My eyesight is 20/20 when checked last year for license renewal.


The Sig Mosquito and Walther p22 are very low quality guns. I recommend a Ruger Mark 3 or Mark 4.

I'm thinking of this as well but I'm leaning towards Browning Buck Mark.
It's the same price as Ruger 22/45 ($300-$325) but I read a lot of threads where the feeling was Ruger needs at least few upgrades to make it training worthy and a lot of upgrades to make it great while Buck Mark is good to go out of the box for good enough training.
What say you?

[0ddl0t]

slow trigger squeeze
From my personal experience, do not concentrate on performing a slow squeeze - it will only make it harder for you to add speed later. Concentrate on a smooth squeeze that does not disrupt the sights. Smooth - and as fast as you can while still being smooth. That will be slow at first, but with practice it will go faster.

[That Guy]

Yes, I do check my target after each shot

Don't do that, it leads to bad habits. Shoot the entire string keeping your focus on the sights. The bullet holes will be there when you finish shooting.


I'm thinking of this as well but I'm leaning towards Browning Buck Mark.
It's the same price as Ruger 22/45 ($300-$325) but I read a lot of threads where the feeling was Ruger needs at least few upgrades to make it training worthy and a lot of upgrades to make it great while Buck Mark is good to go out of the box for good enough training.
What say you?

I used to own a Buckmark. Good pistol, probably should not have sold it. That said, I now own a stock Ruger MkIII 22/45 and it works just fine in stock form. The grip is too thin, would love to modify it to accept 1911 grip panels, but I'm a little worried I'd mess up the frame. Can't get replacement frames over here. I do also admit having thought about eliminating the magazine safety, and perhaps if I tweaked the trigger pull with some aftermarket parts, I might get just a tiiiiny bit tighter groups squeezed out of the gun... But I don't actually need any of those modifications in order to go to the range and work on my basic marksmanship technique.

There are a whole bunch of aftermarket parts for Ruger .22's. Hell, you guys over in the USA could probably build an entire Ruger .22 without using a single Ruger made part! But just because those aftermarket parts exist, that doesn't mean they are necessary... A stock Ruger works, and will keep on working for a long time. I know some people make disassembling a Ruger .22 seem like an impossible task, but none of the ones (MkII's and MkIII's) I've seen have seemed particularly difficult.

On the other hand, a Buckmark works just fine too. Its two main downsides were, for me a) that fake gold plated trigger was just too dorky and b) I did not like how you had to remove the rear sight to field strip the gun. (Well, I didn't like the fiddly nature of the disassembly in general, but it's a sporting gun, not a military service weapon, so who really cares.) Not that I could ever prove that it affected accuracy in any negative way, I just always felt that in theory it might, and it bugged me. My point being, either gun should work well for you. Hell, my girlfriends first .22 pistol, bought for just about the same reasons as we're talking here, was a really old Colt Woodsman she got for about $50. The purchase permit cost her about twice what the gun cost! And that cheap, old pistol still did its job just fine.

[Clusterfrack]

I haven’t seen any Buckmarks at Steel Challenge matches. Everyone shoots Rugers. It’s not a perfect gun, but there are a ton of aftermarket parts, and plenty of YouTube info on every detail.

[joshs]

There is already a bunch of good advice in this thread, but I'd add that building grip strength is a great way to make most aspects of pistol shooting easier. And, it's something you can do with time that wouldn't otherwise be able to be used for live or dry fire. I keep a couple of Captains of Crush grippers and bands in my office at work.


The Sig Mosquito and Walther p22 are very low quality guns. I recommend a Ruger Mark 3 or Mark 4.

Unless you get a very good deal on a Mark 3, the easier takedown of the Mark 4 is worth substantially more than the relatively small price difference.

[psalms144.1]

Mystery - looking at the target between shots is probably the number one cause of "shotgun" patterns like some of your shooting. Shoot the group, THEN check the target. You're over-complicating things worrying about too much at once. Grip the gun firmly with your shooting hand, hard with your support hand. Focus on the front sight and press the trigger. Watch the front sight the whole time. Wash, rinse, repeat x5, THEN check the target.

[Mystery]

From my personal experience, do not concentrate on performing a slow squeeze - it will only make it harder for you to add speed later. Concentrate on a smooth squeeze that does not disrupt the sights. Smooth - and as fast as you can while still being smooth. That will be slow at first, but with practice it will go faster.

I think what I'm doing is bad then.
I squeeze until I hit the wall, sometimes pause, then squeeze making sure front sight/muzzle doesn't move.
Is the proper way to squeeze the trigger all at one move without any pause at the wall?

[Mystery]

Mystery - looking at the target between shots is probably the number one cause of "shotgun" patterns like some of your shooting. Shoot the group, THEN check the target. You're over-complicating things worrying about too much at once. Grip the gun firmly with your shooting hand, hard with your support hand. Focus on the front sight and press the trigger. Watch the front sight the whole time. Wash, rinse, repeat x5, THEN check the target.

Will try that next time.
thanks

[Clusterfrack]

I think what I'm doing is bad then.
I squeeze until I hit the wall, sometimes pause, then squeeze making sure front sight/muzzle doesn't move.
Is the proper way to squeeze the trigger all at one move without any pause at the wall?

I "prep" the trigger by taking up slack, press through the wall to fire, reset the trigger during recoil, ... prep and press, until I'm done shooting.

Some people come all the way off the trigger. Some people press continuously. There is no universally accepted best practice.

However, I recommend learning how to press the trigger FAST without moving the gun.

[JohnO]

I don't use dummy round. I load one in the chamber and take magazine out.
The follow up empty squeeze, even though I know it's empty, often shows my flinch and closing eye.
I don't want to use dummy round at the range as I have to unload it and it may fall behind the red lines.



Try and see if your pistol will feed empty cases. Many will. You can load empty cases in the mags.

[Mystery]

Went to range last night.
Mostly I shot in groups of 5 without pause.
It was new to me as I usually shoot one shot, bring the gun back, align sights, level, focus on front etc... and repeat.
It was hard to find the front sight between each shot.
I tried to watch the slide/muzzle to see where it goes but can't see anything.
It's too fast.
It doesn't go too much left or right but can't tell if it moves little bit to the sides.
I squeeze the trigger and before I can adjust my eyes, it's already back.
Maybe I have to use a high speed camera. hmm...

Another issue I have is leveling the front and rear sights.
Top of the sights are black so it's really hard to tell when they are perfectly leveled.
Because of that, I think the front sight is slightly lower so my shots are all little low.
Why can't we have one rear sight in the middle to align with the front instead of messing with proper gap? Won't that be easier???

Anyways, here are 7 targets I used.
All were groups of 5 or 4 shots as fast as I could shoot except 6th sad face where I took one shot at a time and surprisingly that's the best group.

1. 1st target of the session at 5 yards. Two 5 shot groups. Not bad for first group shots.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/47925353143_583fcb666e_c.jpg

2. 7 yards - all 5 are slightly below due to the issue of lack of contrast on top of the sights.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/47925355852_46a36d6d74_c.jpg

3. 7 yards
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/47925960913_1bc8108a40_c.jpg

4. 10 yards - hey I hit two in the center out of 5. :D
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/47925962028_fe832521a1_c.jpg

5. 5 yards - my kid colored the grayscale target.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/47925963631_92577637fe_c.jpg

6. 7 yards - one shot at a time -- I have no idea how it became like a sad face. Would be great if that's what I tried to do. :D
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/47925957602_fe7139148e_c.jpg

7. Three 5 shot groups plus few at the end. Unloading at the end...
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/47925958667_af62d2954c_c.jpg


Anything that jumps out?