Streamlight To Introduce New Switching Option TLR-7 & 8 Lights

[HCM]

Streamlight To Introduce New Switching Option TLR-7 & 8 Lights


http://soldiersystems.net/2019/05/15/warrior-west-19-streamlight-to-introduce-new-switching-option-tlr-7-8-lights/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=facebook

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[Mirolynmonbro]

Nice! Maybe I'll put mine back on. Do you think it will be a new product or if the switch can be installed on current lights?

Aw fudge, I hope it works with the same holsters

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[Trukinjp13]

Bam! This is awesome. Hopefully it retrofits.


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[matt7184]

It won't retrofit as far as im aware.

[dontshakepandas]

This is interesting. I haven't tried the old version, but the reports of the switch being hard to reach/use is what kept me away.

This switch looks great for trigger finger activation, but looks like it might be a little low to activate with a support hand easily. I think the design is insanely ugly though, and I wish Streamlight would get rid of the silver ring around the front. (Insert obligatory looks don't matter clause here)

I'll probably hold off to see some reviews and how the new rechargable Surefire works out.

[Mirolynmonbro]

From a comment on the article....

Per the Streamlight rep at ADS West, the new switch cannot be retrofitted to an older light.

The switch is a major improvement for the Streamlight pistol lights



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[Up1911Fan]

Hope that fits existing holsters, that looks like a better switch than the current one.

[orionz06]

This is what they shoulda been in the first place.

[john c]

When are these available?


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[10mmfanboy]

It's about time, still rockin a original xc1, just because of the lame switching on the tlr7

[Tony Mayer]

This is great news! Loved the light size and lumens (for a ccw light I think it's perfect) hated the switchology. Nice job Streamlight! Will be getting one asap to make sure they work with holsters but based off the pics I think they will work just fine with existing holsters. Won't know for sure till I have hands on though.

[NH Shooter]

Is the switch momentary only? If not, how is constant-on activated?

Tony, don't forget us Walther PPS and PPQ folks. ;-)

[littlejerry]

Is the switch momentary only? If not, how is constant-on activated?

Tony, don't forget us Walther PPS and PPQ folks. ;-)

Current design is tap for constant on and hold for momentary. Through some series of clicks and holds you can convert to strobe

[NH Shooter]

Ten-Tap programming to make it momentary only would be awesome. If I need constant-on I'm inclined to use a hand held.

[Schmetallurgy]

It's about time, still rockin a original xc1, just because of the lame switching on the tlr7

Wow, niiiice...

I had a very detailed and interactive conversation precisely along these lines at NRAAM in 2018 with a gentleman who's name escapes me, but I recall he was upper mgmt and involved with product development in some fashion. I'd like to think I helped... :p

[Schmetallurgy]

Didn't mean to quote above, just a general comment.

[Wonder9]

The original TLR-7/8 was an ergonomic nightmare for me, but I loved every other aspect. I will definitely pick up one of these new ones.

[SoCalDep]

All these compact lights have been missing the boat on proper function for actually using/IDing/fighting with a light, and have been playing to a market That is either liability-minded (law enforcement) to the detriment of good practice and the death of innocent people, or retail market based on BS info that doesn’t translate to the real world.

I hope this switching system is better but I won’t say too much until I know how it works.

I will submit the following:

For CCW, automatic activation by a pressure switch is less likely needed, and in some cases a potential drawback. The ability to have more control of the light for he more rare/ specialized CCW situations would be a good thing. Most current lights fall short of good manual switching.

For HD and uniformed cop use, automatic activation via pressure swich is the way to go for most with proper training and compact lights fail completely in this regard save a few outliers that use either unreliable switching or pitiful light output.

I say all this because I’d love to come home and have my carry gun work ideally for home defense, but knowing what I know and having seen the reports of family members and innocent people shot in the dark, it doesn’t, and most compact lights don’t change my view.

In my opinion, unless you are left-handed or run a Glock or M&P (where Streamlight TLR1/2 lights with contour switches become contenders), the Surefire X300 series is the best low light WML option, particularly if you can run a pressure seitch with your gun.

[MistWolf]

Ten-Tap programming to make it momentary only would be awesome...
I thought the same thing until actually firing a shot while holding down that momentary switch. That hurt!

[Screwball]

I’m game... would have preferred a retrofit, but oh well.

[NH Shooter]

I found the biggest challenge with a pistol-mounted WML is exactly what you're alluding to: controlling the light independent of firing the pistol.

Using the trigger finger to activate the light means either (1) the light has to be switched constant-on before firing or (2) the light goes off in momentary mode as the finger transitions to the trigger. I concur that holding the switch in momentary mode while firing presents some challenges, but switching to constant-on could present some liabilities.

On the other hand (no pun intended), using the support hand thumb to operate the switch requires (1) both hands on the pistol and (2) a somewhat different grip than if I was simply firing with two hands. At least for me, this requires incorporating two slightly different grips depending on whether I'm using the WML or not. FWIW, my pistol WMLs have included the SF300 series and the Inforce APL.

Over the last year or so I've spent so much time shooting strong-hand-only it's almost become my default method. As an old Bullseye shooter, it feels natural and leaves my support hand free to operate a handheld completely independent of firing or where the pistol is pointed. I've also become comfortable transitioning among the different hold techniques for the light, so at this point the handheld works quite nicely for me.

All that said, being able to control both the pistol and light with a single hand could offer some advantage in specific scenarios.

[Gio]

All these compact lights have been missing the boat on proper function for actually using/IDing/fighting with a light, and have been playing to a market That is either liability-minded (law enforcement) to the detriment of good practice and the death of innocent people, or retail market based on BS info that doesn’t translate to the real world.


90% of the products in the firearms and tactical industry are not designed by high level shooters or users.

[Drang]

90% of the products in the firearms and tactical industry are not designed by or for high level shooters or users.

FIFY.

[nalesq]

I don’t know why Streamlight doesn’t come out with a better grip switch. The one they make for the Glock is terrible (too thick, too sensitive) compared to the Surefire DG switch.


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[GJM]

Could someone do the cliff notes summary of both the ideal hardware configuration for 1) EDC, 2) home defense, and 3) duty — and leaving aside ideal, what are the best available choices for the three categories?

[SoCalDep]

I will go into more detail later, but the super super short version is that for home defense or uniformed, patrol law-enforcement use I would recommend a Grip activated pressure switch for intuitive or automatic activation. The switch should allow a relaxed but normal Grip to deactivate the light and the normal shooting grip to activate it. I won’t say no one can run a toggle under sudden stress but I will say that toggle switches are very likely to NOT be used under stress.

For EDC and concealed carry, an automatic activation switch is less necessary and possibly detrimental. If I’ve got a fight “right now“, it’s probably because I’m being attacked and target identification via a weapon light is going to be significantly less likely. If I have to get a gun out but I’m not being attacked right now, I probably don’t want to draw too much attention to myself, so automatic activation of the light would also be contraindicated.

The problem with the current compact WMLs is the switching... this hold for momentary tap for constant sucks. We’re not nearly as likely to be searching with a WML, so momentary is almost completely unnecessary. These lights should have positive mechanical switches that are truly ambidextrous (not a see-saw that works opposite depending on what hand it’s in) and within reasonable reach of the non-dominant thumb.

[Chuck Whitlock]

Could someone do the cliff notes summary of both the ideal hardware configuration for 1) EDC, 2) home defense, and 3) duty — and leaving aside ideal, what are the best available choices for the three categories?

The SF DG switch is nice, but the rubber heat-shrink wrap tends to get rubbed through by holster wear and whatnot.

This one may be a good option:

https://www.crimsontrace.com/products/manufacturer/1911-pistols/01-7100

I seem to recall that early on SF had a trigger guard (TG) switch as well.

[nalesq]

The SF DG switch is nice, but the rubber heat-shrink wrap tends to get rubbed through by holster wear and whatnot.

This one may be a good option:

https://www.crimsontrace.com/products/manufacturer/1911-pistols/01-7100

I seem to recall that early on SF had a trigger guard (TG) switch as well.

The output on the Crimson Trace offerings are pretty pitiful by 2019 standards, and it looks at least as grip-alteringly thick and uncomfortable as the mediocre Streamlight grip switch.

The rubber wrap on the Surefire DG switch can indeed get a bit jacked up, but that’s easily fixed using more shrink wrap or a can of rubber dip stuff from Home Depot.



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[BillSWPA]

The SF DG switch is nice, but the rubber heat-shrink wrap tends to get rubbed through by holster wear and whatnot.

This one may be a good option:

https://www.crimsontrace.com/products/manufacturer/1911-pistols/01-7100

I seem to recall that early on SF had a trigger guard (TG) switch as well.

At least for a 1911, I really like the idea of completely independent switching for the light and laser. With a wider grip it might not work as well.


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[beenalongtime]

Maybe I missed it, but is there a when will this be available in this thread?

[Chuck Whitlock]

The output on the Crimson Trace offerings are pretty pitiful by 2019 standards, and it looks at least as grip-alteringly thick and uncomfortable as the mediocre Streamlight grip switch.

I would agree with you about CT's light output, but the point of the exercise was the switch placement.
As to the thickness of the housing body, this CT unit looks like, if anything, it might push the hand down from the trigger guard a bit, but not necessarily affect the grip itself. And this is coming from someone that tried out Streamlight's contour switch...completely ruined my grip on my G23.3.

[Chuck Whitlock]

At least for a 1911, I really like the idea of completely independent switching for the light and laser. With a wider grip it might not work as well.

It is my belief that CT's light switch design on this model was precisely to not interfere with the switching on their Lasergrips.

[nalesq]

I would agree with you about CT's light output, but the point of the exercise was the switch placement.
As to the thickness of the housing body, this CT unit looks like, if anything, it might push the hand down from the trigger guard a bit, but not necessarily affect the grip itself. And this is coming from someone that tried out Streamlight's contour switch...completely ruined my grip on my G23.3.

I see what you’re saying - looking at the CT unit again, I agree that it would probably not mess up one’s firing grip as badly as the Streamlight product does.

I would be concerned though that the under trigger placement of the CT switch would either be too sensitive to unwanted activation; or alternatively, if the switch is relatively insensitive, it would not activate as instinctively by reflexive tightening of the grip in preparation for shooting, as it would were it located more vertically along the grip.





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[JR1572]

Putting TLR-1 paddles on this thing would be nice...

[BillSWPA]

The output on the Crimson Trace offerings are pretty pitiful by 2019 standards, and it looks at least as grip-alteringly thick and uncomfortable as the mediocre Streamlight grip switch.

The rubber wrap on the Surefire DG switch can indeed get a bit jacked up, but that’s easily fixed using more shrink wrap or a can of rubber dip stuff from Home Depot.



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If the Crimson Trace grip activation for the light is the same as their lasers, it has minimal affect with guns with thin grips. However, I did not like it on a Glock.



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[Gio]

I will go into more detail later, but the super super short version is that for home defense or uniformed, patrol law-enforcement use I would recommend a Grip activated pressure switch for intuitive or automatic activation. The switch should allow a relaxed but normal Grip to deactivate the light and the normal shooting grip to activate it. I won’t say no one can run a toggle under sudden stress but I will say that toggle switches are very likely to NOT be used under stress.


I'm not a fan of pressure switches. I've seen them fail more than the lights do and I think turning the light on/off by having a perfect grip is asking for trouble. I also think "milking" the grip to activate the light can lead to issues.

I think it's hard to beat a streamlight TLR1 for advanced low light gun fighting because the momentary on is so easily reached and held with a regular firing grip.

I think the X300U is a better switch for less advanced shooters who just need to get the light on and leave it on and won't be thinking about turning it off and throughout. I do think the X300U switches are a little stiff though and hard to reliably activate on the draw.

[SoCalDep]

I think that no answer is 100% right 100% of the time, so I think people can have different preferences and opinions. Some may train for and prefer the toggle switch for specific reasons (NVGs, need for minimal light signature, etc) and when I trained with Mike Pannone that was his preference. He has a very solid experience and skill set and it works for him and his level of training. I think it would also work for someone who would dedicate their training to the methods he teaches.

In contrast, my department has done a semi-formal study involving WMLs and I’ve had the opportunity to observe thousands of law enforcement officers of various levels of experience, motivation, and training, and by a very large margin, WMLs get used under stress when they have a pressure switch. When they have a toggle switch they don’t...like almost not ever. Stats and such from the study... 82%+ activation of a pressure switch under stress... a whopping 0% activation of toggle switches.

I do agree that milking the grip to activate the light is a bad thing, and I do think that training is necessary. A good pressure switch and technique shouldn’t necessitate a perfect grip, and with training, practice, and experience it should be very intuitive. It is not as reliable as the light and I’ve broken two DG switches so I get it, but it’s way more reliable for uniformed cop use than 0% activation under stress (from a statistical training perspective).

Add to the issues with toggle switching for uniformed cop use... If I offered you a pistol that worked great with a two hand grip but became practically un-useable one-handed you’d all say I’m nuts, but toggle switching is un-useable one- handed save trigger-finger activation which is haha-level impractical under stress and a massive increase in potential for unintentional via negligent discharge.

What’s awesome about all this is that executive level of most departments would rather deal with their people killing an innocent person in the dark, so they can argue “reasonable in light of totality of circumstances and experience and training/Tenn vs Garner” than actually evaluating and emphasizing low light performance, equipment, and training to avoid the death of an innocent.

Further, companies like Safariland have jumped on board with this misguided and short-sighted view. I am still absolutely and thoroughly pissed off over two different conversations at SHOT 2019 with Safariland reps who will remain un-named, one of which involved them screwing up me trying to explain benefits of their own holsters as an option for our deputies. Light companies like Streamlight and Surefire have made massive strides in Compact WMLs, but the market has been driven by ignorance and liability fear... which has only created more liability potential.

But hey... it’s only a matter of shooting the right... or wrong person in the dark.

[GJM]

While it is stuck in a specific product thread, I think this has the potential to be a great software thread, where we do the deep dive into best practice for using a weapon mounted light.

[TGS]

I also think "milking" the grip to activate the light can lead to issues.


Are you referring to sympathetic response and the potential for NDs, or something else?



In contrast, my department has done a semi-formal study involving WMLs and I’ve had the opportunity to observe thousands of law enforcement officers of various levels of experience, motivation, and training, and by a very large margin, WMLs get used under stress when they have a pressure switch. When they have a toggle switch they don’t...like almost not ever. Stats and such from the study... 82%+ activation of a pressure switch under stress... a whopping 0% activation of toggle switches.


Can you speak more to what training is given to those officers who use WMLs?

Off the cuff, this sounds 100% like a training issue.

My hypothesis: The 82% that use the pressure switch are doing so because of sympathetic response, not because they're actually meaning to. The lack of activation via switched lights is because they're not actually trained to use them, but rather sort of just given the lights (or authorized to purchase?) without any significant training beyond a fam.

[SoCalDep]

Are you referring to sympathetic response and the potential for NDs, or something else?



Can you speak more to what training is given to those officers who use WMLs?

Off the cuff, this sounds 100% like a training issue.

My hypothesis: The 82% that use the pressure switch are doing so because of sympathetic response, not because they're actually meaning to. The lack of activation via switched lights is because they're not actually trained to use them, but rather sort of just given the lights (or authorized to purchase?) without any significant training beyond a fam.

To start, I largely agree with you, but It drives me nuts when someone says “100% training issue”. I feel like that is a complete dismissal of reality. EVERYTHING is a training issue. As Ernest Langdon once told me (paraphrased); 10% could be handed a S&W model 10 and they’d make it work. 80% need training and good equipment to perform to the standard and 10% would poke themselves in the eye if you gave them a sharp pencil.

The reality is that no one trains enough. I train a lot and I still don’t find it very hard to push myself outside the boundaries of my capabilities. While we don’t train enough, particularly in law enforcement we have to train in a wide variety of skills, each taking time from other necessary skills. When it comes to WMLs in particular, and understanding the general lack of time for low light training, one must look at goals and expectations.

Goals

What are we actually looking to accomplish? What is the purpose of a light attached to a gun? When will we need to use it, and under what circumstances would it’s use be necessitated?

Now we could go all Surefire Institute and say that lights are for navigation, communication, threat identification, etc., and all this is true, but WMLs also accomplish something significant that is rarely discussed - they help us hit the bad guy... not because of aiming with the light but because now we can clearly see our sights and target. I have numerous reports from actual shootings where use of the WML actually prompted the deputy’s internal voice to say “oh look at that... there are sights on my gun”. In that same study/experiment I mentioned in the prior post we found a clear increase in accuracy from those using a WML (and remember, the only ones who did were using pressure switches).

In my mind, the primary priority of goals for WML use is threat identification, threat management, and combat accuracy. As another trainer says; “If I can see it I can solve it”. Now, all of these priorities exist under stress and in (frequently) dynamic situations that are “tense, uncertain, and rapidly evolving”. So with that in mind, what seems like a better option... a light that activates automatically upon a reactive draw or a light that requires a deliberate, conscious act in addition to the regular draw stroke? Training maybe part of the equation for pressure switch versus toggle switch, but if someone is using a toggle switch equipped pistol (no pressure switch) and isn’t practicing to activate it every single time they draw, light or dark, there’s a very very very high likelihood that light won’t be there under stress. When I say I’ve seen it 1000 times, that’s probably a very very low estimation. I’ve seen highly trained people forget or de-prioritize the toggle under stress.

Expectations

I think it’s important to understand the difference between levels of students. Many cops get great training but they aren’t motivated, pay only enough attention to get by, and don’t train to ingrain and maintain skills. I think some of the best trainers must be good motivators, especially if working in law-enforcement. It’s something I’m constantly trying to work on and get better at. By and large, if given the option as soon as the unmotivated student sees that activating the toggle switch during daylight hours slows them down, makes passing the test less likely, and provides no immediate advantage in daylight, they won’t do it. If not punished in the class they won’t do it in the class. They certainly won’t do it after the class. Conversely, some students are sponges. They take the information, practice it, and are constantly looking for more. These motivated students would likely practice activating toggle switches during every draw.

I won’t say that a person can’t use a toggle switch and I won’t say that no one can land in airliner on the Hudson river. That said, for the investment of training hours, intuitiveness and ease-of-use, and the fact without even having to think about it the three prioritized goals of threat identification, threat management, and combat accuracy are all supported by automatic activation of a pressure switch. Sully is a bad ass, but there’s a reason why they were trying to find a runway. Sometimes it’s the stakes and the odds.

Appropriately, tonight I’ll be out with another group of academy recruits – training them how to use their weapon mounted lights during their first low light range session. I’ll do another post describing in more detail the training that we conduct for the use of weapon mounted lights but I’m typing all of this on my phone through voice prompt and teeny screen buttons And if I do something to erace all this I think I might die. Please forgive the typos and what are probably mildly amusing auto correct phrases.

[TGS]

SoCalDep,

Can you describe the training that is given to your officers that have a 0% activation rate "when under stress" using a toggle switch light?

ETA:

Derp, sorry, missed that last sentence in your post saying that you'd update later. My bad, not intending to hassle you.

[BK14]

So, my agency doesn’t do anything I’d consider significant when it comes to low light training in the academy. We practice all the common handheld techniques, do a couple activations with the WML then that’s about it....

But I don’t do what I do based off the LCD training that academies are built around. So in addition to that training, I’ve sought out low light training, and practice low light techniques on my own.

In the incidents I can recall at the moment involving high-stress draws in low light, I have instinctively activated my X300 when needed. Add to that, one of my partners who was on one of those incidents, also activated his WML. He only trains when the department makes him, he doesn’t dry fire, doesn’t even change the batteries in his light, but he did turn his light on. Which coincidently, each other’s lights prevented a crossfire from happening in that incident...

Point being, in my experience working nights, I 100% prefer a toggle activation like the X300 or TLR-1 over a pressure switch.

I’ll post pictures of my grip later, but I don’t have a significant shift in how I hold my gun.

[BK14]

Normal grip vs light activation.... it’s really not “two different grips” even when using the TLR-7. I haven’t found a significant difference in splits between light activation vs normal shooting. If I’m trying to push my splits down to sub .20 then I’ll have a slight advantage when not activating a light, but realistically speaking, I’ll take .05 second slower splits to have the reliability and control of toggle switches.


https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190530/70ec7b7fc7e251b90d2127e6235e5c5c.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190530/9e844fb5abeaf4a134234680ffb80f1a.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190530/d91cc08bd9fcd2f0f2c2f01c7cd446d4.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190530/06e130b83dd8ac8fa200445dffa886d0.jpg

[SoCalDep]

On my department, WMLs weren’t authorized until 2007. When that happened, we had to watch a 10 minute video and fill out a scantron. Pressure switches were approved and there were no significant issues (I’m guessing because most who had the lights were motivated and it was a small percentage of the department). Low light training in the academy continued to involve hand held flashlights only.

When the department began to issue recruits WML-equipped handguns, there were slight modifications to discuss light activation via the toggle switch but low light training was still primarily dedicated to hand-held light techniques.

In 2012, we were successful in changing our training program to better address training needs and make better use of the limited time allotted for low light training. We began teaching methods for activating the toggle switching system that improved performance, reduced the number of hand-held techniques taught to the Harries and Neck/Eye-index, and placed a significantly increased emphasis on manipulation training (reloads, malfunction clearance, etc.) and basic tactics with WML and hand-held light such as which technique to use depending on cover and how to employ momentary vs. constant-on.

Within a couple years we were able to convince our recruit training to allow recruits to purchase pressure switches in the academy and we began training all recruits on the use of both toggle-switching and use of the pressure switch. Around this same time, the department initiated an agency-wide conversion to a striker-fired handgun with a Surefire X300U. Deputies were encouraged to purchase pressure switches. We began to hear a larger and larger number of success stories involving the use of the WML and particularly the pressure switch. We also began getting a lot of reports of negligent discharges. This began a series of issues that had to be addressed, one of which was a very public report largely blaming the pressure switch for the increase in NDs.

This led to our study/experiment which clearly showed what we knew from training thousands of law enforcement officers a year. The pressure switch is easier for most people to use when trained appropriately. In addition, we discovered the report contained misleading statistics. The criteria for inclusion in the report statistics was limited to make the pressure switch appear to be a bigger contributing factor than it was, and ignored the fact that an aggressive training program let to a significant and consistent decrease in pressure-switch related NDs that continues to this day. The participants in the study had almost all received training with the toggle switch. Most had not had in-depth pressure switch training.

At my department, 17 deputies are responsible for training over 10,000 armed personnel from our own department in addition to recruits and officers from several local departments. We see a lot and we see the results of infrequent training and lack of practice. There is a low-light (WML – centered) block of training during the conversion class, and that block was increased to include “dynamic” scenario training when the class was increased from one to two days.

This block of training includes the reactive draw with automatic activation of the WML to an immediate threat. The activation should not require a different grip and students are instructed NOT to think of light activation as “pressing a button” but simply gripping the gun like they would normally shoot. Emphasis remains on keeping the trigger finger indexed on the frame until the decision to shoot has been made. We address the need to avoid flicker while holding and shooting the pistol and that the light can be a good way to judge the consistency of the grip. We discuss and conduct courses of fire that require draws without activating the WML and teach the technique to de-activate the light by relaxing the shooting grip. We teach manipulations including emergency (empty gun) reloads and tactical reloads, and when the light may need to remain on vs. be turned off. Finally, we stress that some people cannot effectively utilize a pressure switch (I’ve seen big guys whose finger crease sat right on the switch and they couldn’t reliably activate it. Same with some with some small hands). If the techniques for using the light aren’t working for the individual, particularly the idea of automatic activation and not thinking of activation via a “button” to press, then the pressure switch may not be for them.

We then move on to instruction on the toggle switch system. We begin with activation of the constant-on function as a reaction to an immediate threat. By activating constant-on, the deputy is now free to manipulate and fire the pistol as normal…If their hands are big enough. If not, they have to modify their draw, index the switch to activate it and then acquire their normal shooting grip. By defaulting to constant-on, the manipulation of the WML is simplified and more mental attention can be devoted to the problem. We address manipulation, reloads, and priorities in reloading/fighting or de-activating the light to reduce target-indicators. We focus a lot on the draw and light activation. Some do this well on the square range… Some don’t. Most don’t do it well when they move on to the dynamic scenarios. We run drills and offer suggestions for reliable de-activation of the light and practice doing it.

We discuss the benefits and drawbacks of the momentary function of the light. We talk about searching vs. fighting and how proper use of intermittent activation of the WML can mitigate the tactical disadvantage of a person searching a structure for bad guys. We run drills that involve activation of the momentary function and shooting while momentary is activated. This is generally no-fun with an X300 pattern light and the Streamlight works much better if one prefers the use of a momentary toggle switch. It is also dependent on whether one is right or left handed or whether the light is in the right or left hand. Many have difficulty keeping the light activated while shooting, particularly with the X300. The Streamlight is still tough for many when shooting larger calibers. Many with small hands find the constant-on switch difficult and the momentary switch next to impossible to operate without a seriously compromised grip and conscious thought to find the switch after each shot.

After this basic instruction with the WML as well as basic instruction in hand held light techniques we move on to working cover and basic search techniques and principles. Under, over, right side, left side, and we discuss tactical aspects of proximity, light activation and splashback, where the light should be directed, dealing with walls and either controlling the activation of the light or avoiding painting it across walls/cover at eye level.

Academy instruction follows this basic structure with additional repetition, more detailed explanations, and a greater emphasis on hand-held light techniques than in the conversion course.

The conversion low light block is about an hour in length. The following day there are low light scenarios that include firing from within a radio car and using radio cars for cover, navigating a “hogans alley” type façade with shoot and no shoot targets, and going through a live-fire shoot house addressing paper non-reactive shoot and no shoot targets.

The academy low light instruction is a total of approximately five hours, with additional time (about six hours) of standard line work and combat courses of fire which allow reinforcement of the instruction.

Our qualifications involve at least one low-light course of fire among the four quarterly quals, but that’s qualification and certainly not training.

[Chuck Whitlock]

I think it's hard to beat a streamlight TLR1 for advanced low light gun fighting because the momentary on is so easily reached and held with a regular firing grip.

Maybe for you, and maybe even most people, but this is not a universal truth for all.


.....

Point being, in my experience working nights, I 100% prefer a toggle activation like the X300 or TLR-1 over a pressure switch.

I’ll post pictures of my grip later, but I don’t have a significant shift in how I hold my gun.

I'm not going to copy your photos, but they are very illustrative, and I see how it works for you.

In my case, and I and others with my issues (small hands) may be in the minority, but:
1) with a thumbs-forward grip, my support thumb and trigger finger fall on the takedown lever when in register.
2) I shoot with a thumbs-down (Weaver/revolver)grip.

So, with that in mind, please explain how I can operate the toggle switches intuitively? (admittedly a little rhetorical)



I think that no answer is 100% right 100% of the time, so I think people can have different preferences and opinions. Some may train for and prefer the toggle switch for specific reasons (NVGs, need for minimal light signature, etc) and when I trained with Mike Pannone that was his preference. He has a very solid experience and skill set and it works for him and his level of training. I think it would also work for someone who would dedicate their training to the methods he teaches.

In contrast, my department has done a semi-formal study involving WMLs and I’ve had the opportunity to observe thousands of law enforcement officers of various levels of experience, motivation, and training, and by a very large margin, WMLs get used under stress when they have a pressure switch. When they have a toggle switch they don’t...like almost not ever. Stats and such from the study... 82%+ activation of a pressure switch under stress... a whopping 0% activation of toggle switches.

I do agree that milking the grip to activate the light is a bad thing, and I do think that training is necessary. A good pressure switch and technique shouldn’t necessitate a perfect grip, and with training, practice, and experience it should be very intuitive. It is not as reliable as the light and I’ve broken two DG switches so I get it, but it’s way more reliable for uniformed cop use than 0% activation under stress (from a statistical training perspective).

Add to the issues with toggle switching for uniformed cop use... If I offered you a pistol that worked great with a two hand grip but became practically un-useable one-handed you’d all say I’m nuts, but toggle switching is un-useable one- handed save trigger-finger activation which is haha-level impractical under stress and a massive increase in potential for unintentional via negligent discharge.

What’s awesome about all this is that executive level of most departments would rather deal with their people killing an innocent person in the dark, so they can argue “reasonable in light of totality of circumstances and experience and training/Tenn vs Garner” than actually evaluating and emphasizing low light performance, equipment, and training to avoid the death of an innocent.

Further, companies like Safariland have jumped on board with this misguided and short-sighted view. I am still absolutely and thoroughly pissed off over two different conversations at SHOT 2019 with Safariland reps who will remain un-named, one of which involved them screwing up me trying to explain benefits of their own holsters as an option for our deputies. Light companies like Streamlight and Surefire have made massive strides in Compact WMLs, but the market has been driven by ignorance and liability fear... which has only created more liability potential.

But hey... it’s only a matter of shooting the right... or wrong person in the dark.

I agree with SoCalDep's post, but the bolded part is the crux of the issue. Context is everything. It is easy to sometimes forget that our reality may not be the same reality that someone else has.

[BillSWPA]

I recall the “study” referenced by SoCalDep. It did nothing to dissuade me from the benefits of a pressure switch on the grip. It did, however, cause me to disregard any future work from the source of the study.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[BK14]

So, with that in mind, please explain how I can operate the toggle switches intuitively? (admittedly a little rhetorical)



There’s the question on if you were to shift your support hand slightly forward/shoot high thumbs would it allow activation, but it sounds like it wouldn’t based off your hand size.

I realize my post may have come across too universal, which was not my intention. Merely to state that there are plenty of us well served with toggle switches, and I don’t think I lose anything worthwhile in performance for the benefits I personally see.

I have a guy I work with whose thumbs aren’t long enough to activate the SLS hood, or ALS lever. This officer uses his whole hand to drop the bail on his SLS before drawing. When I first saw it, I almost freaked out, shocked that he didn’t know how to use his own holster, until I realized that the SLS holster technique I thought was universal, may not be universal.

Hopefully how I activate my light may help someone. But there’s a ton of options out there to try out.

On that note, I found this video very helpful when discussing different techniques:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nafSEdXXh2Q

[Chuck Whitlock]

^^^^^
Good stuff.





I have a guy I work with whose thumbs aren’t long enough to activate the SLS hood, or ALS lever. This officer uses his whole hand to drop the bail on his SLS before drawing. When I first saw it, I almost freaked out, shocked that he didn’t know how to use his own holster, until I realized that the SLS holster technique I thought was universal, may not be universal.

This is interesting, as I have no problem using, and greatly prefer, the SLS and/or ALS for an exposed OWB holster.
I was able to use the SSIII well, but not the level III Raptor.

[Gio]

Maybe for you, and maybe even most people, but this is not a universal truth for all.


Absolutely agreed. One size doesn’t fit all, and I recommend everyone do their own experimentation and training to figure out what you can reliably activate from the draw, from a firing grip, etc.

[43Under]

I got to handle one of the new TLR-7 models this past weekend. Switchology is definitely better than the old one, but I did find the activation switch a little low for my support hand thumb. If it was hinged the opposite way, it would have been just about perfect for me (i.e., applying pressure higher up on the back of the unit would mean less adjustment of my usual grip). Definitely an improvement though.

[Lon]

^^^^^
Good stuff.





This is interesting, as I have no problem using, and greatly prefer, the SLS and/or ALS for an exposed OWB holster.
I was able to use the SSIII well, but not the level III Raptor.

I fall into the short thumbs category. I can use the ALS/ALS guard combo just fine. With an SLS, I cannot get the hood rotated forward far enough to clear the rear sights 100% of the time.

[Chuck Whitlock]

I fall into the short thumbs category. I can use the ALS/ALS guard combo just fine. With an SLS, I cannot get the hood rotated forward far enough to clear the rear sights 100% of the time.

If you hit it right, you should only have to push straight down. I suspect not having been taught this is why I see so many cops with the hood down. I need to do a picture tutorial.

[SoCalDep]

If you hit it right, you should only have to push straight down. I suspect not having been taught this is why I see so many cops with the hood down. I need to do a picture tutorial.

I agree. I have numerous recruits with very small hands and have never seen one not able to release the SLS when Corte t technique is used. I think part of the problem for many is that they attempt to grip the gun first and then release the hood.

[Chuck Whitlock]

If you hit it right, you should only have to push straight down. I suspect not having been taught this is why I see so many cops with the hood down. I need to do a picture tutorial.

This ought to suffice.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=14&v=248kZ2Q-mUQ

Watch closely from the front angle. Instead of hitting the center of the thumb shelf, and pushing it down and then forward, hit the rear corner with your thumb and push straight down. the hood will bottom out and then go forward. It helps to put a drop or two of your favorite gun oil in the mechanism and work it back and forth a bit from time to time.

This should also leave your thumb perfectly positioned to activate the ALS afterward. I find the exact same movement to work with the ALS guard, too.



I agree. I have numerous recruits with very small hands and have never seen one not able to release the SLS when Corte t technique is used. I think part of the problem for many is that they attempt to grip the gun first and then release the hood.

I wasn't aware of a name for the technique...just something I figured out for myself. And yes, the hood should be released as the hand comes down to establish the firing grip, not after the grip is established: As the hand comes down to the holster- 1) release hood as hand hits backstrap. 2) Establish master grip. 3) Defeat ALS as pistol is drawn.

As an aside, this type of sequence allowed me to use the SSIII well. I defeated both snaps as my hand came down on the grip, which rocked the pistol back as I established my master grip and then drew. I was not successful with the Raptor due to needing to maintain middle-finger pressure against the spring.


I hope this makes sense.

[CleverNickname]

Are the new versions going to have a different SKU so it's easier to order the correct version?

[GJM]

Are the new versions going to have a different SKU so it's easier to order the correct version?

Are the new models shipping yet?

[SoCalDep]

This ought to suffice.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=14&v=248kZ2Q-mUQ

Watch closely from the front angle. Instead of hitting the center of the thumb shelf, and pushing it down and then forward, hit the rear corner with your thumb and push straight down. the hood will bottom out and then go forward. It helps to put a drop or two of your favorite gun oil in the mechanism and work it back and forth a bit from time to time.

This should also leave your thumb perfectly positioned to activate the ALS afterward. I find the exact same movement to work with the ALS guard, too.




I wasn't aware of a name for the technique...just something I figured out for myself. And yes, the hood should be released as the hand comes down to establish the firing grip, not after the grip is established: As the hand comes down to the holster- 1) release hood as hand hits backstrap. 2) Establish master grip. 3) Defeat ALS as pistol is drawn.

As an aside, this type of sequence allowed me to use the SSIII well. I defeated both snaps as my hand came down on the grip, which rocked the pistol back as I established my master grip and then drew. I was not successful with the Raptor due to needing to maintain middle-finger pressure against the spring.


I hope this makes sense.

Lol... that is not the name... that is Apple auto correct for “proper technique”. Hopefully I am better at drawing from a holster then I am at typing on an iPhone.

[Chuck Whitlock]

Lol... that is not the name... that is Apple auto correct for “proper technique”. Hopefully I am better at drawing from a holster then I am at typing on an iPhone.

I, too, have been thusly abused on numerous occasions.

[KevH]

I think that no answer is 100% right 100% of the time, so I think people can have different preferences and opinions. Some may train for and prefer the toggle switch for specific reasons (NVGs, need for minimal light signature, etc) and when I trained with Mike Pannone that was his preference. He has a very solid experience and skill set and it works for him and his level of training. I think it would also work for someone who would dedicate their training to the methods he teaches.

In contrast, my department has done a semi-formal study involving WMLs and I’ve had the opportunity to observe thousands of law enforcement officers of various levels of experience, motivation, and training, and by a very large margin, WMLs get used under stress when they have a pressure switch. When they have a toggle switch they don’t...like almost not ever. Stats and such from the study... 82%+ activation of a pressure switch under stress... a whopping 0% activation of toggle switches.

I do agree that milking the grip to activate the light is a bad thing, and I do think that training is necessary. A good pressure switch and technique shouldn’t necessitate a perfect grip, and with training, practice, and experience it should be very intuitive. It is not as reliable as the light and I’ve broken two DG switches so I get it, but it’s way more reliable for uniformed cop use than 0% activation under stress (from a statistical training perspective).

Add to the issues with toggle switching for uniformed cop use... If I offered you a pistol that worked great with a two hand grip but became practically un-useable one-handed you’d all say I’m nuts, but toggle switching is un-useable one- handed save trigger-finger activation which is haha-level impractical under stress and a massive increase in potential for unintentional via negligent discharge.

What’s awesome about all this is that executive level of most departments would rather deal with their people killing an innocent person in the dark, so they can argue “reasonable in light of totality of circumstances and experience and training/Tenn vs Garner” than actually evaluating and emphasizing low light performance, equipment, and training to avoid the death of an innocent.

Further, companies like Safariland have jumped on board with this misguided and short-sighted view. I am still absolutely and thoroughly pissed off over two different conversations at SHOT 2019 with Safariland reps who will remain un-named, one of which involved them screwing up me trying to explain benefits of their own holsters as an option for our deputies. Light companies like Streamlight and Surefire have made massive strides in Compact WMLs, but the market has been driven by ignorance and liability fear... which has only created more liability potential.

But hey... it’s only a matter of shooting the right... or wrong person in the dark.

Spot on.

I've come to the conclusion that there is no current setup with a WML on a handgun where you can have your cake and eat it to. No matter which setup you use it is a form of compromise.

My own agency (and the ones around me) have suffered a myriad of ND's due to finger activation of the toggle switch, especially when the officer/deputy operates the gun one handed (which in the real world is frequent) and uses their trigger finger to actuate the light. DG switches can help mitigate some of the ND potential, but come with their own set of issues, such as white light ND's and some of the issues addressed in the Force Science study I assume you are referencing in one your posts.

To the "this sounds like a training issue" folks out there...perhaps. But the reality is that my own department does 4 to 8 hours flashlight activation training every year on the range...and we still have issues. How much time do you think the average citizen shooter is going to spend on low light training shooting in near darkness and low light settings? How many people have access to a low light/ no light range to practice on? We have been pounding into guys' heads for over 10 years not to use your trigger finger to actuate the switch yet people still do it.

In 2011, while working in the dark every night as a K9 handler, I decided to switch from carrying a 1911 to a Glock 17 with a Surefire X300 and DG switch attached riding in a Safariland 6360. I made the choice because I wanted to be able to hold a dog, point a gun, and point a flashlight all at the same time, all whilst having the maximum amount of ammo available before having to reload and having the lightest recoil possible to make one handed shooting easier. I spent an inordinate amount of time both dry-fire and live-fire training (much more than the average person will probably commit) and became somewhat proficient with this setup and used it until the 2017. Still, I experienced enough white light ND's and other issues that once I was no longer a handler I ditched it and haven't looked back. I just prefer a less complicated setup. For me, having the gun and the flashlight separate and learning to shoot them together is more efficient (I spent way too much time with a Surefire Z2 and Rogers-Surefire method when I was a newb) and solves most of the problems for both on-duty and off-duty carry.

The rocker switch to me is problematic for uniformed patrol period since the user will almost inevitably actuate it with their trigger finger at some point since the reality is that we often need to perform other tasks while having our gun drawn (keying a shoulder mic, looking under a bed on a building search, tossing something to a partner, etc.). We can say "well just don't do that, but the reality is that people likely will.

The DG and SL switches seem to offer a better solution, but are not without their own problems, which must be recognized if one plans to use them. I think they are currently the answer if you are going to run a WML in a patrol environment.

I agree that target identification is paramount and while I know these days it's not sexy, I'll just stick to a flashlight in my off hand.

[SoCalDep]

Thanks for the responses everyone! I think it’s important not to get stuck thinking my paradigm is the only thing that is/can be right.

I think it’s probably appropriate to clarify some things and maybe make some people mad.

The study I referenced is not public and was conducted internally by my department (and done by me at the direction of my supervisors) which confirmed what we, as less than 20 instructors, unanimously observed while teaching between 11,000 and 13,000 student spots per year (some of those are rifle classes or don’t comprise night/low light, so caviat emptor, grain of salt, at your own risk, and such). Toggle switches may get used prior to the conflict (ie: searching), and can possibly be used during stress, but are almost NEVER used during stress.

The Force Science article is bullshit. We called them out on it in a training class and they had no response. I like much of what they do, but that was pure lack of context. If I hand an untrained person a gun with no supervision or instruction... bad things can happen. If the pilots die and I had to take over an airliner and land it in the Hudson, people ‘gon die. That doesn’t mean training can’t make a responsible gun handler or competent/ exceptional pilot. There are training methods that mitigate pressure switch drawbacks and maximize returns... like not shooting family members in the dark... that happens ALL THE TIME, compared to the two incidents cited by Force Science, and the applicability of those two incidents are debatable because from what I have been told, one didn’t involve a pressure switch- I question whether the full details were even known to Force Science when the article was written. Maybe I’m wrong and if so we can debate.

The report I mentioned was done by the civilian oversight organization for our department. It claimed that the increase in unintentional discharges was largely due to adopting a striker fired pistol and, specifically, the use of a pressure switch for the WML. In reality it had more to do with a lax safety culture, lack of frequency in training, and to an extent a lack of training at all. Most of those issues were being addressed well before the report was written and the issues have been, by and large, rectified. The report was written by people who simply didn’t understand the issue and I will be VERY kind and assume that they simply misinterpreted the statistics rather than purposefully manipulated them for an agenda.

So...

Study = me
Report = watchdog group “maybe” with an agenda
Article by Force Science = not so sciency.

[P226SAOFan]

Anybody know an eta on these?

[Yojimbo]

Any updates on these? Does anyone when will they be released?

[Up1911Fan]

I emailed a week or so ago and they have no eta.

[jwperry]

I'm guessing no one has seen or heard of these in the wild yet?

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk

[Up1911Fan]

Looks like end of the month.

[javemtr]

Some infos in the comments as well: http://soldiersystems.net/2019/10/08/rampart-range-day-west-wrapup/

[10mmfanboy]

I went on that f3 tactical and saw the tlr 7A I got all excited like I scored but it was unavailable. I like that they have two different toggle options!

[javemtr]

Also, Tenicor USA has a short video about the new TLR-7A in one of their recent Instagram posts. Might be worth checking out for some of you.

[backtrail540]

p/B3aR_6EHlff

[RAM Engineer]

I'm digging those two new switch options, but I continue to be baffled by Streamlight putting those sliver rings and big silver branding on these lights. I'll have to hit them with a paint pen when I get one.

[El Cid]

I went on that f3 tactical and saw the tlr 7A I got all excited like I scored but it was unavailable. I like that they have two different toggle options!

They showed in stock this afternoon.

[vandal]

What are the toggle options mentioned? I'm not seeing any as it's showing out of stock.

[Rick62]

vandal - There's "low" and "high" switch variants. There's an image of both in the SSD link in post #66.

[Nephrology]

I'm digging those two new switch options, but I continue to be baffled by Streamlight putting those sliver rings and big silver branding on these lights. I'll have to hit them with a paint pen when I get one.

I kinda like it and think it looks sharp. I am also almost certainly never going to be in a position where this will prove to be a tactical disadvantage. Not nearly cool enough.

[js475]

Streamlight now has an official product page for the TLR-7A up on their website. Hopefully this means they'll be shipping soon!

https://www.streamlight.com/en/products/detail/index/tlr-7a

[Screwball]

Can’t wait...

I started carrying my Glock 30S with TLR-7. Being winter, I switched to OWB; started with my 642-1. I have a White Hat setup where I can go either IWB or OWB by changing the leather backing. The OWB hits the button, turning the light on. Put it away tonight... switching back to my J-frame.

I want to try the new switches.

[js475]

These appear to be shipping now. I've seen them in stock at LA Police Gear, Midway USA, and a few other online retailers as of this afternoon. Price is similar to the original TLR-7.

[That Guy]

If anyone gets the chance of trying one of the new lights on a PX4, I'd appreciate it if you could let me know how well it fits the gun. The POS Inforce light I have required whittling on the paddles a bit in order to get the light to work, looking at the pictures I doubt that is a fall back option with a TLR-7A...

(High switches would be optimal for me.)

[Screwball]

Ordered one from LAPoliceGear... high switch version.

In regards to trying on a PX4, mine is still in NJ. Haven’t got the entire safe up to ME yet. I don’t see myself heading down there in the near future, but if I do, I’ll make sure to try it out (all my keys are down there, including the custom ones). This is all judging it fits in my Glock 30S/TLR-7 holster, and can carry it down there. If not, my 642-1 will make the trip... and I’ll try to remember the light.

[Clusterfrack]

I'm trying to figure out which model has the easiest reach for SHO activation. My SMedium hands make it a challenge to activate the standard TLR-7 switch with my trigger finger.

What do y'all think? Here's a comparison:

45636

[1Rangemaster]

Received a T&E sample at Dept. that has the “high” switch late in the week. I put it on a Gen5 19. No shooting, but in handling it mounted on the GLOCK, I think Streamlight really got it right with this switch. Good activation with support hand thumb or index finger. No fitment/activation issues with Perun holster. I had experienced some mild frustration with the older push switch. It’s workable, but ya gotta work at it! The new switch turns the TLR7 into what will probably become my “go to” light for off duty/concealment.
I’ll shoot it next week and report further.

[Cool Breeze]

Received a T&E sample at Dept. that has the “high” switch late in the week. I put it on a Gen5 19. No shooting, but in handling it mounted on the GLOCK, I think Streamlight really got it right with this switch. Good activation with support hand thumb or index finger. No fitment/activation issues with Perun holster. I had experienced some mild frustration with the older push switch. It’s workable, but ya gotta work at it! The new switch turns the TLR7 into what will probably become my “go to” light for off duty/concealment.
I’ll shoot it next week and report further.Are you testing the high switch or low switch? Thanks!

[1Rangemaster]

Are you testing the high switch or low switch? Thanks!

High switch, sir.

[Clay1]

Ordered from LA Police Gear. Might have paid a couple of pennies more for an early adapter penalty, but my new Sagax Lux holster is begging for one of these. I own a couple of X300Us a TLR1 HL and finally a compact light.

Thanks for this post because I almost ordered a Nightstick 550 XL, just kept dragging my feet. Really wanted a Surefire XR-1 that was shown at last year's SHOT, but still hasn't been released. I needed a compact light NOW.

Thanks again.

[Up1911Fan]

Just ordered one as well. I've been using the original for the past year, I think the new switching will be better.

[Cool Breeze]

High switch, sir.Cool. That's the one I would have gone for of the 3. I was originally hoping the switch would go up even higher to the top of the body but I'm glad to hear it works for you!

[Clay1]

LA Police Gear Out of Stock today. That's didn't last long did it?

[Up1911Fan]

LA Police Gear Out of Stock today. That's didn't last long did it?

Well they were about $30 cheaper than everywhere else I've seen.

[Screwball]

LA Police Gear Out of Stock today. That's didn't last long did it?

They had 15 in stock when I ordered...

[1Rangemaster]

Had the opportunity to shoot briefly on the dept. indoor range today at lunchtime. I can control lighting, and left the range dark, except for lights at the 25 yard line. Moved down range for the drills. I would describe ambient light as “moonlit” or urban low light. G19 w/ACRO and TLR7A mounted-the high switch.
I shot the 5 yard roundup, the CCW check and the Wizard drill, activating the light on the presentation. A 91 on the roundup, one shot OT slightly on single handed shooting. The CCW check was clean, ample time most strings(this with light activation each string). Wizard was clean, one OT shot at 10 yards, but that is a weakness with me I sometimes see.
I had about ten minutes total time dry firing the switch over the weekend. With a little more familiarization, I can see no OT shots. The high switch for me is the one to keep. It’s highly doubtful I could have accomplished the above with the old style switch-too small and hard to activate. I would opine the switch is at least as good as on the two cell Streamlight and Surefires. Perhaps better, in that both sides work the same: down and hold for momentary, down and release for constant on. Holster was a Perun, no issues noted. Since there are holsters like Perun and Tenicor, and a new one rumored for Safariland, no reason not to have one of these mounted.

[1Rangemaster]

I should add I am working the switch sometimes with trigger finger, as in one handed shooting, and sometimes with support thumb. We have some experienced LE locally that insist on activation with support thumb, but that won’t work in single hand mode.
Any hive mind thoughts from the PF collective?

[HCM]

I should add I am working the switch sometimes with trigger finger, as in one handed shooting, and sometimes with support thumb. We have some experienced LE locally that insist on activation with support thumb, but that won’t work in single hand mode.
Any hive mind thoughts from the PF collective?

Support thumb when ever possible.

I try to avoid using the trigger finger for stuff other than pulling the trigger but sometimes you got to do what you got to do.

[Up1911Fan]

Had the opportunity to shoot briefly on the dept. indoor range today at lunchtime. I can control lighting, and left the range dark, except for lights at the 25 yard line. Moved down range for the drills. I would describe ambient light as “moonlit” or urban low light. G19 w/ACRO and TLR7A mounted-the high switch.
I shot the 5 yard roundup, the CCW check and the Wizard drill, activating the light on the presentation. A 91 on the roundup, one shot OT slightly on single handed shooting. The CCW check was clean, ample time most strings(this with light activation each string). Wizard was clean, one OT shot at 10 yards, but that is a weakness with me I sometimes see.
I had about ten minutes total time dry firing the switch over the weekend. With a little more familiarization, I can see no OT shots. The high switch for me is the one to keep. It’s highly doubtful I could have accomplished the above with the old style switch-too small and hard to activate. I would opine the switch is at least as good as on the two cell Streamlight and Surefires. Perhaps better, in that both sides work the same: down and hold for momentary, down and release for constant on. Holster was a Perun, no issues noted. Since there are holsters like Perun and Tenicor, and a new one rumored for Safariland, no reason not to have one of these mounted.
What Safariland is rumored?

[Clusterfrack]

Support thumb when ever possible.

I try to avoid using the trigger finger for stuff other than pulling the trigger but sometimes you got to do what you got to do.

Agree. Support thumb activation is a natural extension of my standard freestyle grip. But SHO activation is important. In fact, if I can't activate it using strong hand only, I won't use a WML.

The TLR-1 works great for me SHO, but I cannot reach the standard switch on the TLR-7 with my trigger finger. I am trying to figure out whether the high or low switch has a shorter reach for trigger finger activation. I want it to be the high switch, so it's closer to my index position on the slide. Any help from folks who have tried them would be great.

[dontshakepandas]

Agree. Support thumb activation is a natural extension of my standard freestyle grip. But SHO activation is important. In fact, if I can't activate it using strong hand only, I won't use a WML.

The TLR-1 works great for me SHO, but I cannot reach the standard switch on the TLR-7 with my trigger finger. I am trying to figure out whether the high or low switch has a shorter reach for trigger finger activation. I want it to be the high switch, so it's closer to my index position on the slide. Any help from folks who have tried them would be great.

It looks like they are going to offer a "Flex" model that comes with both switches so you could see which works best for you.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1021894695

[lwt16]

My high switch version should arrive tomorrow.

[1Rangemaster]

Up1911Fan: my understanding is that Safariland is working on an ALS style holster which will accommodate a pistol, and/or a red dot sight, and/or a weapon mounted light.
Thanks, HCM-concur-sometimes ya gotta do what ya gotta do...
For my hands, the high switch seems to be the way to go. I don’t have a low switch to compare, but the high one seems to “fit”. I think the lower switch would not be as accessible/controllable.

[Up1911Fan]

Up1911Fan: my understanding is that Safariland is working on an ALS style holster which will accommodate a pistol, and/or a red dot sight, and/or a weapon mounted light.
Thanks, HCM-concur-sometimes ya gotta do what ya gotta do...
For my hands, the high switch seems to be the way to go. I don’t have a low switch to compare, but the high one seems to “fit”. I think the lower switch would not be as accessible/controllable.
You mean something other than the RDS holsters? I would like an ALS sized for a G19/TLR7. Currently they only seem to have G34 length WML holsters.

[1Rangemaster]

Here’s a follow on question:
How many here have a dry fire regimen which includes wml activation?
Along with deploying a hand held, this would seem advisable...

[1Rangemaster]

Up1911Fan:
Copy, will check with holster rep and get back to you.

[Up1911Fan]

Up1911Fan:
Copy, will check with holster rep and get back to you.

Thanks.

[littlejerry]

You mean something other than the RDS holsters? I would like an ALS sized for a G19/TLR7. Currently they only seem to have G34 length WML holsters.

I've got a 19/TLR7 ALS holster. Let !e check the model number and I'll post it tomorrow.

[That Guy]

Here’s a follow on question:
How many here have a dry fire regimen which includes wml activation?


I wouldn't perhaps go so far as to call it a dry fire regimen, since that implies a bit more regimented approach to practice than what I can manage, but... Howdy.

As for your previous inquiry, while I'm hardly part of the "hive mind" this is what I do: with the shitty Inforce I have currently on my full size PX4, I've discovered the most reliable one handed method to be to brace the butt of my pistol against my torso and tap the on button with my middle finger. Kind of an unorthodox and perhaps suboptimal method for sure, but in my dry fire practice it's been more fumble proof than trying to reach all the way to the front of the trigger guard with my trigger finger.

[1Rangemaster]

Up1911Fan:
The holster model # is 7378 I believe. There is a “holster finder”on Safariland website where one can plug in gun/light combos and get holster availability.
On the 7A switching, I am more convinced they the high switch is for me. I’ve dryfired it a bit and will try a cold drill in the AM.
As to the light durability, etc.: I’ve run the earlier switch 600+ rounds over a multi day class, and it was functional at the end. Carried occasionally, no torture testing. It always comes on when I work the switch...

[Up1911Fan]

Up1911Fan:
The holster model # is 7378 I believe. There is a “holster finder”on Safariland website where one can plug in gun/light combos and get holster availability.
On the 7A switching, I am more convinced they the high switch is for me. I’ve dryfired it a bit and will try a cold drill in the AM.
As to the light durability, etc.: I’ve run the earlier switch 600+ rounds over a multi day class, and it was functional at the end. Carried occasionally, no torture testing. It always comes on when I work the switch...

The TLR7 will fit in any of the LC holsters. My problem is all those holsters are designed for full sized lights, making them essentially G34 length holsters. I'm hoping for an ALS thats no longer than a 19.

[1Rangemaster]

That holster works with a single battery light, not two batteries side by side.

[1Rangemaster]

Meant to add-17 length. I believe they make a 19 length, so contact them direct

[littlejerry]

The TLR7 will fit in any of the LC holsters. My problem is all those holsters are designed for full sized lights, making them essentially G34 length holsters. I'm hoping for an ALS thats no longer than a 19.

Here is my 19 length TLR7 ALS holster.

[P226SAOFan]

Got the TLR7A today. Fits the vedder lighttuck made for a 19 with regular TLR7 just fine so that is a plus.

Much easier to turn on, I don’t have to change my grip to activate it with trigger finger or support thumb. The switch has an audible click unlike the older model. Seems like a winner.

[Pit]

Got the TLR7A today. Fits the vedder lighttuck made for a 19 with regular TLR7 just fine so that is a plus.

Much easier to turn on, I don’t have to change my grip to activate it with trigger finger or support thumb. The switch has an audible click unlike the older model. Seems like a winner.

Which switch did you go with? Could you do some pics of your grip with it?

JW

[Clay1]

Got the TLR7A today. Fits the vedder lighttuck made for a 19 with regular TLR7 just fine so that is a plus.

Much easier to turn on, I don’t have to change my grip to activate it with trigger finger or support thumb. The switch has an audible click unlike the older model. Seems like a winner.

Mine is suppose to arrive on Friday the 13th, not sure that is a good sign or not. Glad that I'm not superstitious.

[P226SAOFan]

Here’s some pics I got earlier. This is the high switch. Seeing it on the 19 I could have gone either way without an issue. If you can touch the inside front of the trigger guard you can hit the switch easily.

I also tried swapping the switches between the two models and it’s a no go, I’ll take a pic and show why tomorrow.

https://i.postimg.cc/D0rRZbHL/274-A0612-12-BC-433-A-B397-C35-DFC037-FC4.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/Znt14L7J/59-F8-A965-CFED-47-D8-B1-EE-CD9498-F174-D9.jpg

[P226SAOFan]

Seems like the could have modified the regular tlr7 switch housing and made a larger paddle that extended back, similar to the Inforce APL.


TLR-7:

https://i.postimg.cc/rsNJgcLW/509-E9-C07-A972-46-C7-8-D84-BDEF27187-A97.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/9MT1RZ8L/FDD5-C934-EC05-4282-A62-D-CDD2230-B7-CD5.jpg

TLR-7A:

https://i.postimg.cc/j2bcz2Bt/CC091999-D6-C2-4-A48-9008-3906-E6-C5-B8-B5.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/tR329dVT/61-C7-E053-780-E-4-AEA-B762-8-F89-ECBFB31-F.jpg

[Screwball]

Don’t really see it being able to be modified. The back half really isn’t something that could be taken apart.

Got mine yesterday... and after messing around with it for a little bit, unloaded the J-frame and got a few magazines filled with Gold Dots.

Fit perfectly in my White Hat Holster. Control is A LOT better than the original, and has a positive click when engaging. Drawing/reholstering... light did not turn on. Got the high switch, which I easily can engage with either hand. Constant/momentary still work like the original.

[GJM]

Anyone know if the TLR-8 GA is available yet?

[Clusterfrack]

Anyone know if the TLR-8 GA is available yet?

I’m interested in that as well.

[spinmove_]

I'm trying to figure out which model has the easiest reach for SHO activation. My SMedium hands make it a challenge to activate the standard TLR-7 switch with my trigger finger.

What do y'all think? Here's a comparison:

45636

Knowing you, and me kind of being in the same boat, and actually owning the light in the bottom of your picture, I have a strong want for the light in the middle.

[Clusterfrack]

Knowing you, and me kind of being in the same boat, and actually owning the light in the bottom of your picture, I have a strong want for the light in the middle.

That’s what I’ve decided as well, but I’m thinking of getting the TLR8g.

[Up1911Fan]

High switch version arrived today. I like the new switch. Can confirm it fits JM and Tenicor holsters just fine.

[El Cid]

High switch version arrived today. I like the new switch. Can confirm it fits JM and Tenicor holsters just fine.

That news makes my day! Thanks!

[lwt16]

45929

45930

New duty pistol. Nightsticks are issued but we are having failures with them so I’m running the TLR7 A for 2020.

[Trukinjp13]

45929

45930

New duty pistol. Nightsticks are issued but we are having failures with them so I’m running the TLR7 A for 2020.

Fml. I just bought a nightstick on sale, totally forgot the tlr7a was coming out this soon. My tlr7 worked perfect but the stubby switches were not for me.


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[Up1911Fan]

Fml. I just bought a nightstick on sale, totally forgot the tlr7a was coming out this soon. My tlr7 worked perfect but the stubby switches were not for me.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I actually like the original switches just fine for 2 handed shooting. I went with the new one for the ability to activate the light one handed, I can't quite reach the original switch with my trigger finger.

[Trukinjp13]

I actually like the original switches just fine for 2 handed shooting. I went with the new one for the ability to activate the light one handed, I can't quite reach the original switch with my trigger finger.

Have to be able to activate with single hand for me. Only reason I let it go.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[lwt16]

Don’t over tighten the Nightstick. We’re having issues with it torquing past the lock out notches and not being able to back the heads back off.

The ones I’ve seen do that render the light dead and unable to budge the assembly back off.

[Trukinjp13]

Don’t over tighten the Nightstick. We’re having issues with it torquing past the lock out notches and not being able to back the heads back off.

The ones I’ve seen do that render the light dead and unable to budge the assembly back off.

So are the failures user induced or also crapping out unrelated to mounting? Thanks for the info!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[SoCalDep]

Have to be able to activate with single hand for me. Only reason I let it go.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I have my ideas as to why/when a WML is necessary, and how best they can be used, but I’m also very interested in situations that I may not have considered. What situations do you all (several posts have indicated the desire for this) envision for the necessity of single-hand operation of the WML?

Thanks for your time!

[Up1911Fan]

I have my ideas as to why/when a WML is necessary, and how best they can be used, but I’m also very interested in situations that I may not have considered. What situations do you all (several posts have indicated the desire for this) envision for the necessity of single-hand operation of the WML?

Thanks for your time!

My left hand is often occupied with my toddler or dog leashes.

[lwt16]

So are the failures user induced or also crapping out unrelated to mounting? Thanks for the info!



It's looking like there is an issue with the threads on the flashlight body itself where the LED pill assembly screws in. The ones that have locked up (and I am estimating 5 percent of the lights issued) are locked up hard....to where channel locks can't back the lens assembly off the body. I watched one of the range instructors demonstrate the flashlight battery installation and when he went to activate the light, it was dead as a hammer. Then, we couldn't get the thing to come apart to see what the issue was.

Yesterday when I was qualifying, the range officer out there (different officer) was showing his off and then when he went to turn the bezel from lock out to "on" mode, the bezel dot indicator went well past the "on" slot and then he couldn't get his to budge back either. I handed him my Leatherman Surge and he wrapped a towel around it and finally got it off but then it wouldn't work.

Even though I swapped my personal TLR7A for the Nightstick I still plan on having it as a back up light should my TLR go out. While I am not a huge "strobe" dude, I know that others here are and when they found out my TLR7A had a strobe mode they whined and moaned about the department's decision to go with the Nightstick. We were SUPER happy with the TLR 1 HL and other than a couple of Simunition destroyed copies, we had no failures with them. Since we got to keep our TLR 1 HLs, several of the guys have kept their old duty holsters and are carrying the G45 with the TLR 1 HL because the light was so loved here.

One thing you might consider is putting a bit of Superlube grease on the threads to try to prevent it from seizing up. I do that with all my flashlights (for years) and I haven't had a thread failure yet across several brands and models (Surefire, Streamlight, 4Sevens, Fenix, Maratac, etc). It takes a minute amount and the stuff is cheap.

We will see how the Nightsticks fare here. There is already talk of putting the TLR7A on the next uniform allowance (we contract with GT distributors) and letting officers buy them out of their yearly uniform cash. Just about my entire squad bought one from LApolicegear when I found them in stock at a good price. So six or seven of those that were in stock are here with us now. So far, we love them.

The TLR7A does have a yellowish tint to it.....almost a high CRI led pill.....but mine seems brighter than the Nightstick. My son confirmed that it seemed brighter to him too. But just a tad.

Regards.

[DpdG]

What duty holster are you using, and is it TLR7/nightstick specific? The thing I’ve always hated about the TLR1/x300 lights is the width creates a gap around the trigger guard when holstered. If possible, a picture or two of the holstered rig would be greatly appreciated.

[Trukinjp13]

I have my ideas as to why/when a WML is necessary, and how best they can be used, but I’m also very interested in situations that I may not have considered. What situations do you all (several posts have indicated the desire for this) envision for the necessity of single-hand operation of the WML?

Thanks for your time!

Night walks with the dogs in Predator country is a big one.

House at night time, I prefer to be able to have a free hand if necessary.

Training with a injured arm makes life interesting if you can not activate your light with your one good arm.

These are just a few I have personally encountered.



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[Clusterfrack]

I have my ideas as to why/when a WML is necessary, and how best they can be used, but I’m also very interested in situations that I may not have considered. What situations do you all (several posts have indicated the desire for this) envision for the necessity of single-hand operation of the WML?


That's a great question, and a topic worthy of discussion.

As a civilian, I don't usually have a WML on my CCW. I've settled on a handheld light (Malkoff BG2) and consistent practice with SHO shooting skills. After dark, my go-to tool is my handheld light, carried support side. In the past, I tried carrying a WML but found them either too dim or too bulky. The new slimline WML/lasers like the TLR-8 are making me consider adding one to my CCW again.

At home and in the backcountry, I prefer having a WML on my handguns and my long guns.

Here are some scenarios where SHO activation (or inactivation) would be needed because my support hand is engaged:
-moving a VIP (wife, kid, etc) out of danger
-manipulating something, holding door open, etc.
-restraining an animal
-fighting
-injury

I'd welcome your and others' opinions.

[lwt16]

What duty holster are you using, and is it TLR7/nightstick specific? The thing I’ve always hated about the TLR1/x300 lights is the width creates a gap around the trigger guard when holstered. If possible, a picture or two of the holstered rig would be greatly appreciated.

45961

45962

[Cool Breeze]

I actually like the original switches just fine for 2 handed shooting. I went with the new one for the ability to activate the light one handed, I can't quite reach the original switch with my trigger finger.I played with my buddies original tlr7 and found the exact same thing. I liked it for 2 handed shooting but couldn't reach it at all with just the trigger finger for one handed activation. The new one looks much more doable one handed.

[DpdG]

45961

45962

Thank you, that looks much less susceptible to foreign objects entering the trigger guard that the TLR1/x300 rigs.

[GJM]

TLR8 green with flex switching out there:

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/851107881

[dontshakepandas]

Anybody seen any of the high switch TLR-7 models in stock anywhere? By the time I got off the fence and decided to buy one LAPoliceGear was out.

[lwt16]

I keep reading that they are due to hit shelves in January. There are some other forums I lurk on and they are showing up here and there.

So far, I am loving mine and my squad is as well. It's not as bright as my TLR1 HL was but I'll live with it. I did order an IWB rig for it so I'll start carrying it off duty here in the new year. That will be something new for me as I haven't carried a light bearing holster so time will tell if I stick with that. It'll also be easier to transfer the duty pistol straight to off duty carry without having to remove the TLR 7a. That's the main reason I purchased a holster that accepts it.

[Cool Breeze]

Anybody seen any of the high switch TLR-7 models in stock anywhere? By the time I got off the fence and decided to buy one LAPoliceGear was out.https://www.gtdist.com

[Clusterfrack]

I’ll be getting a TLR-8ga high switch when JMCK AIWB 2.5 and OWB holsters are available for that on a P-07. Tony said it would happen but couldn’t promise a date.

[dontshakepandas]

https://www.gtdist.com

Thanks. I actually ordered one from them a few days ago and forgot to update here. Should be delivered later today.

[dontshakepandas]

I haven't had a chance to test the light output out in the dark yet, but so far I really like the high switch. The switch is in a good location and has a good tactile click when used. The light also mounts to a Gen 5 Glock 19 much more securely than any of the Surefire XC-1 options I tried previously.

I have a JMCK holster on the way, but can confirm it fits in the Tenicor Sagax Lux just fine.

[Clay1]

I haven't had a chance to test the light output out in the dark yet, but so far I really like the high switch. The switch is in a good location and has a good tactile click when used. The light also mounts to a Gen 5 Glock 19 much more securely than any of the Surefire XC-1 options I tried previously.

I have a JMCK holster on the way, but can confirm it fits in the Tenicor Sagax Lux just fine.

Same here, fits the Sagax Lux great, still mostly carrying a Roland style build in a Tenicor Malus Sol with the X300U. The TLR7A has made a great alternative though.

[Clusterfrack]

I just received my TLR-8ag from Optics Planet. The High switch is excellent, and is easy for trigger finger activation.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200202/06baf55e6afd93bab49ce222d0733c71.jpg

[Lusoryniel]

Nice, but I still prefer my SureFire XC1 more.

[Clusterfrack]

I put 200 rounds through the P-07 with TLR-8GA/High switch today, and am very impressed. The green laser is daylight visible to 50 yds, and it was quite easy to hit a 10" plate at that distance. It's almost too bright in the dark. Activation is the best I've used. It's very ergonomic to activate momentary with the support side thumb, but also easy to tap to constant on with the trigger finger.

Now, all I need is for Tony to update his moulds so I can buy a JMCK AIWB Wing Claw 2.5, and OWB 2 for this combination...

[dontshakepandas]

I’m very happy with my TLR7A with the high switch too. I got a holster from Tony last week and it’s great.

[El Cid]

Nice, but I still prefer my SureFire XC1 more.

Would you be willing to share why? I found my XC1 terribly lacking. It has enough throw to light up the inside of a phone booth. I couldn't imagine using it for LE/defensive use.

The TLR-7/8 series are what we've been asking for in the shooting community for a very long time - compact AND bright/useful. The SF XC1 is just compact...

[Redhat]

I just received my TLR-8ag from Optics Planet. The High switch is excellent, and is easy for trigger finger activation.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200202/06baf55e6afd93bab49ce222d0733c71.jpg

What holster are you using with that set up

Disregard...saw your follow up post

[Clusterfrack]

What holster are you using with that set up?

I don't have one yet... waiting on Tony Mayer to catch up on his moulds. Then will order a JMCK Wing Claw 2.5.

[GJM]

I just received my TLR-8ag from Optics Planet. The High switch is excellent, and is easy for trigger finger activation.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200202/06baf55e6afd93bab49ce222d0733c71.jpg

Only one thing missing from this set-up.

[Clusterfrack]

Only one thing missing from this set-up.

I’m guessing that would be a RDS :D?

I’m not there yet...

[Doc_Glock]

I put 200 rounds through the P-07 with TLR-8GA/High switch today, and am very impressed. The green laser is daylight visible to 50 yds, and it was quite easy to hit a 10" plate at that distance. It's almost too bright in the dark. Activation is the best I've used. It's very ergonomic to activate momentary with the support side thumb, but also easy to tap to constant on with the trigger finger.

I am considering one of these. Can you clarify why you went with the Laser version as opposed to the TLR 7 non laser model? I have no pets plan experience using lasers for aiming and some red dot experience.

[Clusterfrack]

I am considering one of these. Can you clarify why you went with the Laser version as opposed to the TLR 7 non laser model? I have no pets plan experience using lasers for aiming and some red dot experience.

Hahah--pets.

Extra cost aside, the size is virtually the same. I'm convinced that a laser can be a significant advantage in low light shooting--especially in dynamic and awkward positions.

[GJM]

Hahah--pets.

Extra cost aside, the size is virtually the same. I'm convinced that a laser can be a significant advantage in low light shooting--especially in dynamic and awkward positions.

As I told him, a laser in an easy switch at night. A green laser provides more non night utility than red.

[Doc_Glock]

Hahah--pets.

Extra cost aside, the size is virtually the same. I'm convinced that a laser can be a significant advantage in low light shooting--especially in dynamic and awkward positions.

No idea what I was trying to say there before auto correct took hold. But I have zero laser experience.

Thanks. And yes, yes, thanks to you too GJM.

$220 at Primary Arms seems best deal I can find currently.

[KeeFus]

Finally got the TLR7a and mounted it on a Glock 45. Slips in and out of a Safariland 6360 for a G17 very easy. The e-clip is a PITA...or maybe it was just my impatience. The bezel is flush with the muzzle as you can see in the pics. 500 Lumens and 5,000 candela for a single CR123 and a run time of 1.5 hours seems fairly nice. We will see how that shakes out. I have a AIWB JM Custom holster on the way.

53463




https://i.imgur.com/X6GWxDA.mp4

[Blades]

I just received my TLR-8ag from Optics Planet. The High switch is excellent, and is easy for trigger finger activation.



How is the TLR-8ag working or you? Did you get your holster?

[Clusterfrack]

How is the TLR-8ag working or you? Did you get your holster?

Yes, I’ve used them quite a bit. This is the first setup that makes it worthwhile to carry a WML. The light bearing AIWB 2.5 is slightly larger, and the whole rig is slightly heavier than a standard setup. So I still use my other gun without the light a lot. But for backcountry or urban night use, this setup is fantastic. And, JMCK is a cut above any other brand I’ve seen.

I was just on an elk scouting trip, and our campsite had some wolf and bear scat nearby. I was glad to have the light/laser when I got out of the tent for a 2am piss.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200912/68557d40dbbaa8d033e6da91a641f3a6.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200912/6c29418e6813cf0f6d33143f731a9cd6.jpg

[Blades]

Yes, I’ve used them quite a bit. This is the first setup that makes it worthwhile to carry a WML. The light bearing AIWB 2.5 is slightly larger, and the whole rig is slightly heavier than a standard setup. So I still use my other gun without the light a lot. But for backcountry or urban night use, this setup is fantastic. And, JMCK is a cut above any other brand I’ve seen.

I was just on an elk scouting trip, and our campsite had some wolf and bear scat nearby. I was glad to have the light/laser when I got out of the tent for a 2am piss.


Thank you for the update. I have two JMCK holsters for G19's. One for a TLR-7, another for an Olight PL-mini. I like the switches on the PL-Mini better than the TLR-7 so I figure the TLR-7a would be better. But I figure I may as well upgrade to the TLR-8ag instead of the TLR-7a. I just don't see a lot of holsters for the TLR-8 but good to know Tony can make one. :)

[Tony Mayer]

Guys and Gals, will be posting some social media stuff this week regarding this but we have just added quite a few TLR7 and TLR8 combo's, including CZ P01, SP01, P09, HK VP9, VP9L, Beretta LTT, A1/A3, Centurions, and probably a few more I can't remember right now!! in our opinion (although the O-light stuff is making some headway) these are the go to for ccw lights.

[KeeFus]

Guys and Gals, will be posting some social media stuff this week regarding this but we have just added quite a few TLR7 and TLR8 combo's, including CZ P01, SP01, P09, HK VP9, VP9L, Beretta LTT, A1/A3, Centurions, and probably a few more I can't remember right now!! in our opinion (although the O-light stuff is making some headway) these are the go to for ccw lights.


I concur! :cool:


60485

[Doc_Glock]

Yes, I’ve used them quite a bit. This is the first setup that makes it worthwhile to carry a WML. The light bearing AIWB 2.5 is slightly larger, and the whole rig is slightly heavier than a standard setup. So I still use my other gun without the light a lot. But for backcountry or urban night use, this setup is fantastic. And, JMCK is a cut above any other brand I’ve seen.

I was just on an elk scouting trip, and our campsite had some wolf and bear scat nearby. I was glad to have the light/laser when I got out of the tent for a 2am piss.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200912/68557d40dbbaa8d033e6da91a641f3a6.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200912/6c29418e6813cf0f6d33143f731a9cd6.jpg


I 100% agree with all the above. I am no generally a WML guy but this holster plus the TLR8ag makes it as painless as possible.

[Up1911Fan]

These are on sale at Primary Arms, 1 day only. Just got two more TLR-7A Flex's for $99 a piece.

[TC215]

These are on sale at Primary Arms, 1 day only. Just got two more TLR-7A Flex's for $99 a piece.

Sold out. I didn’t make it in time.

[Up1911Fan]

Sold out. I didn’t make it in time.

Figured they'd run out fairly quick.