Trigger Control Maintenance, striker vs TDA

[ASH556]

As some of you know, I've been on a journey since January of exploring the TDA trigger with the Beretta 92. I've learned a lot and enjoyed the process. That said, the shine has worn off, the warts are showing themselves, and I'm glad I kept at least one of my Glocks.

For those who have spent significant time with both TDA and striker guns: Do trigger control lessons learned with TDA maintain themselves if you shoot another platform?

In other words, for logistical reasons I'm now strongly considering divesting myself of my Berettas and going back all in with Glocks. Yeah, I'll loose some money, but in the long run, it was worth the $400 investment to learn what I have about trigger control and also allowing myself to scratch that "platform switch, greener grass" itch for the first/only time since I got serious about pistol shooting in early 2014.

However, I want to make sure that if I go back to shooting the Glock 100% of the time my trigger control won't devolve.

More backstory as to how I got here in the first place: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?35273-Seriously-considering-dumping-Glock-for-Beretta-Thoughts

[ubervic]

I began shooting pistol in earnest about 8 years ago. I started with HK LEM trigger, then moved to SFA (M&PFS), then to TDA (SIG), and now back to SFA (Glock). The last move was somewhat thrust upon me, as I'd sold off the SIG for reasons, then inherited the Glock.

Yeah, I'd hopped around, but I'm glad that I did. I'm particularly glad that I ran TDA for a decent amount of time. It forced me to think more about working the trigger, the difference between DA and SA trigger press, the DA/SA transition, decocking, etc. This experience made me a more determined and disciplined shooter, which in turn helped me become a more skilled shooter. I still have work to do to up my game, but I think I'd not be where I am today had I not run TDA for a few years.

I am content with the Glock right now, and don't intend to move away from it. I really like its robust simplicity, and I am enjoying how well I can run it as long as I grip it well. Running TDA well is more challenging than running SFA well in some regards, but I find that grip is much more important than anything to running Glock well. I am more aware of these differences after running TDA, and so I guess I view TDA as a great coach, but not necessarily the best overall trigger system.

[ASH556]

I guess I view TDA as a great coach, but not necessarily the best overall trigger system.

This captures my sentiment exactly. This has been the subject of my conversations with karmapolice for 2 weeks now and that's basically my conclusion. Great teacher, but maybe not the best system to operate with all the time. There have been conversations with Mr_White and Kevin B. by proxy and these all seem to echo the same sentiment: "It's hard to beat Glock when looking at the whole "operational package."

[newt]

I can't speak for all, but I largely started on TDA some 20+ years ago back on the old SIG carbon slide P228's (man I miss those, they were sweet). At least for me, that DA pull really paid off for all other platforms. So no only do I not think you'll not devolve, your trigger may be even better thanks to the work you did.

Interestingly, I JUST started somewhat of the same thing you did, I've largely been on SAO (1911s, EDC X9 for idpa) and Glocks(carry) for a long time, and just tried my first nice beretta (Wilson BrigTac), so I've sorta gone in a circle. I've been off of TDA for probably 5 years now. And wow, I like these berettas. Last time I shot a beretta was a long time ago, and I never thought I'd come back to it. My first practice with the brigtac for IDPA almost had me dump the X9 for an IDPA match after just one practice. I was really accurate with it, although not as fast. I need to get back on it.

Newt

[GJM]

Trigger control ability is not platform specific.

[Kanye Wyoming]

I’m a total newbie, having first handled a pistol about 3 years ago, so take this for what it’s worth and with a grain of salt.

The first carry gun I bought a few years ago was a P30SK. It checks a lot of boxes for me, all things being equal I’d prefer to carry a DA/SA hammer gun, and I still really like it. Over time I came to realize that all things weren’t quite equal, in that on the timed drills I do consistently (FAST, Casino, Bill and more recently “The Test”), on average my results are more than marginally better with a striker gun than with either the P30SK or another larger DA/SA with a much more refined trigger.

At the same time, I dry fire and shoot the P30SK at the range from time to time, both because it’s fun and challenging, and because I’ve noticed that it's like a batter who takes practice swings with a bat weight. After shooting the P30SK, usually my trigger control on the strikers is noticeably improved, and especially on those occasions when I find myself going off the rails, more often than not some time with the P30SK, dry and/or at the range, helps me gets me back on track.

[psalms144.1]

I "grew up" shooting 1911s, then M9s and Sig TDAs. I found I could run them very well (especially the crutch, I mean 1911). I initially went into Glocks because of size/weight/capacity issues - damn near impossible in the late 80s/early 90s to find anything that could compete with the G19. In the intervening 30 years or so, I've gone away from Glocks several (dozens of) times, and always end up right back with the G19.

For me, the earlier Glocks lacked a bit of long range accuracy, but excelled at being able to be run well at speed on "reasonable" targets at "reasonable" ranges. The 1911 excels at hitting any target at any range at any speed, but does so at the cost of heavy weight, large size, low capacity, and a manual of arms and trigger system that really demands it be used exclusively, IMHO. The M9s/Sig DAs were decent compromises, more accurate, but still larger/heavier/harder to maintain.

With the Gen5 family of Glock 9mms, I find it damned near impossible to recommend anything else. Accuracy is on par or exceeds any competitor, without sacrificing any of the size efficiency or ease of maintenance that have always been the Glock's hallmark. Are other strikers easier to shoot without inducing "leftitis?" Sure, but they do so by cheating - I mean by using fully tensioned strikers that can be released unintentionally (mallet tests anyone?)

What's the point? I understand that shooting DA or DAO pistols can be great for teaching trigger control, specifically working on achieving a surprise break, but, frankly, I don't think that juice is worth the squeeze. I'd much rather see someone take the cost of that cool new pistol and invest it in ammo and a training course with a good instructor.

Now, before I get tarred and feathered, if you WANT to shoot something else, get on with your bad self! I recently picked up a Ruger LCR because I WANT it. Am I going to carry it much? Probably not. Am I going to make it my dedicated training pistol - HELLS no. Nothing wrong with dabbling with new stuff to see what "works" for you, but I would never let it take my primary attention away from what already works, and training to make THAT work better. And, if you "just can't make the Glock work for you" - look at the M2.0, or the P10, or the VP9, or...

[03RN]

I think consistent practice with a variety of guns will keep you a well rounded shooter. I enjoy being able to go from a 1911 to a DA revolver, to a Beretta, to a Glock and not miss a beat. I don't feel hampered and after a long 6 month break from glocks I can pick one up and shoot it well.

[MSparks909]

I think consistent practice with a variety of guns will keep you a well rounded shooter. I enjoy being able to go from a 1911 to a DA revolver, to a Beretta, to a Glock and not miss a beat. I don't feel hampered and after a long 6 month break from glocks I can pick one up and shoot it well.

X2. I can shoot all my pistols to within 90% of my benchmark, which happens to be B92s. Good enough for me.

[Clusterfrack]

...For those who have spent significant time with both TDA and striker guns: Do trigger control lessons learned with TDA maintain themselves if you shoot another platform?
...

For me, the answer has been yes, trigger control transfers from DA/SA to striker guns. Is trigger control relatively easy to maintain? I think regular practice is important, and familiarity helps. Right now most of my practice is with CZs, and because of that my carry gun of preference is also a CZ (P-07). However, I've found that I can pick up any Glock and shoot it pretty well. Differences in grip angle have been a non-issue. As already mentioned, it's hard to beat the Glock platform overall.

[ASH556]

I'd much rather see someone take the cost of that cool new pistol and invest it in ammo and a training course with a good instructor.


I appreciate your whole post and agree with it in large part. However, this part sticks out to me. I understand why this is the advice everyone gives. Heck, it's probably the advice I would/do give. However, I think it's flawed in some way also. Before going down my 4 month Beretta rabbit hole, I spent $300 + travel and ammo with Larry Vickers on "Advanced Pistol Marksmanship" and $425 + ammo (class was local) with Gabe White on "Pistol Shooting Solutions."

I think most would agree that these are "good instructors" and I learned things from these classes, but neither of them taught me what I learned about trigger control from 4 months shooting a Beretta.

At the risk of sounding arrogant, maybe some of this has to do with "levels" too. A beginner shooter might have learned a lot about trigger control in those classes. However, there are degrees and levels to this stuff. The trigger control required to shoot a 3" group vs a 6" group at 25yds are a bit different (just as an example).

[Clusterfrack]

I don’t think you can learn that much in any single class. But you learn what you need to work on, how to train better, and it’s important to have an example of what true excellence looks like up close.

[Duelist]

Just as you didn’t divest yourself of all your Glocks, you probably should keep a Beretta even if you do decide to go back to primarily working Glock. The same things you liked about them before will be there when you decide to go visit again, and it will probably save some money to just keep one for that down the road time.

[Doc_Glock]

I am content with the Glock right now, and don't intend to move away from it. I really like its robust simplicity, and I am enjoying how well I can run it as long as I grip it well....so I guess I view TDA as a great coach, but not necessarily the best overall trigger system.

100% this. I did TDA and even SA with safety for enough time to gain competency. Now back to the simplicity of SFA. I pretty much shoot them all the same, but I enjoy the mental simplicity of the SFA, despite the crunchy triggers.

[JonInWA]

So far, this thread discussion has been pretty much confined to shootability per se. Another factor (if, in fact it actually needs to be considered by the OP {or others}) it parameters of use. If you're determined to get the best shooting results (i.e., accuracy and speed) that's one thing; if there's the possibility of threat management (i.e. holding someone at gunpoint, but having some speedbumps in place to ensure that firing is really what you want and need to do), then there's some consideration that might be directed to DAO, LEM, DA/SA...

My most shootable pistols per se are my Glocks and HK VP40, but the ones I'm most likely to carry as a duty pistol are my HK P30L with V1.5 LEM and Meprolights, and my Beretta 92D, upgraded with Wilson Combat, Langdon, Wolff and Tool Tech/Trijicon components.

Best, Jon

[OlongJohnson]

I'm pretty sure Dagga Boy once mentioned that he keeps a Smith SSR around as a dry fire mule and for when he feels like shooting a spinny ammo feeder in matches. You don't have to feel bad about peening notches on a current production cylinder.

[Bucky]

I think consistent practice with a variety of guns will keep you a well rounded shooter. I enjoy being able to go from a 1911 to a DA revolver, to a Beretta, to a Glock and not miss a beat. I don't feel hampered and after a long 6 month break from glocks I can pick one up and shoot it well.

Same here. My competition guns are 1911/2011, CZ, and Glock. Carry are EDC X9, 92 Compact, G43. (see a pattern.) The one thing I know I’m not trained to adapt to is a slide mounted safety, so the 92 is a G model. Minimize, but know your limitations.

[45dotACP]

I have been running 1911s lately and have found that trigger control improves after running some of my light loaded 148 gr wadcutters through the GP100 in double action.

Running a double action trigger or even just running some 25 yard DA groups with a TDA gun is a good way to diagnose trigger control issues.

I'd hold on to the Berettas.

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

[Clusterfrack]

...The one thing I know I’m not trained to adapt to is a slide mounted safety...

Same here. Great point. A year ago, the safety on my Shadow2 gut bumped on in the middle of a stage, and I lost maybe 5 seconds trying to figure out what was wrong.

[miller_man]

I appreciate your whole post and agree with it in large part. However, this part sticks out to me. I understand why this is the advice everyone gives. Heck, it's probably the advice I would/do give. However, I think it's flawed in some way also. Before going down my 4 month Beretta rabbit hole, I spent $300 + travel and ammo with Larry Vickers on "Advanced Pistol Marksmanship" and $425 + ammo (class was local) with Gabe White on "Pistol Shooting Solutions."

I think most would agree that these are "good instructors" and I learned things from these classes, but neither of them taught me what I learned about trigger control from 4 months shooting a Beretta.

At the risk of sounding arrogant, maybe some of this has to do with "levels" too. A beginner shooter might have learned a lot about trigger control in those classes. However, there are degrees and levels to this stuff. The trigger control required to shoot a 3" group vs a 6" group at 25yds are a bit different (just as an example).

Maybe some lessons can’t be taught - they just have to be learned through experience ( and quite possibly lots of failure). When I think of lessons I’ve learned about trigger control lately, that is how I am beginning to see it.

[LSP552]

To get the most from a class on driving the gun, you really need to find an instructor who knows how to teach the TDA. I can’t evaluate LAV or Gabe’s use of and instruction of TDA, so please don’t take this wrong.

I’m just saying that if you want to learn how to really run a TDA, then look for an instructor who knows how to teach that system. Unfortunately, it’s almost a lost art among people who think a Glock has a good trigger.

Nothing wrong with strikers, and I carry them sometimes. Every platform has positives and negatives, it just depends on what attributes the individual feels is best for them under a particular set of circumstances.

I personally think learning to shoot TDA and revolvers carries over to other systems. Moving the trigger without disturbing the sights is key regardless of what you shoot.

[CLaw]

You mentioned “the warts are showing...” Do you mind sharing what those are? The only things I am missing at the moment are the lighter weight and the ability to mount a dot. I’m going to pick up an mos gun sometime, just to try the dot once some more reviews come in on SRO and ACRO. Of course, I may just pickup a Holosun since I’m just interested in playing with the idea. I digress...

I’m just curious as what you are seeing as the downsides now.


As some of you know, I've been on a journey since January of exploring the TDA trigger with the Beretta 92. I've learned a lot and enjoyed the process. That said, the shine has worn off, the warts are showing themselves, and I'm glad I kept at least one of my Glocks.

For those who have spent significant time with both TDA and striker guns: Do trigger control lessons learned with TDA maintain themselves if you shoot another platform?

In other words, for logistical reasons I'm now strongly considering divesting myself of my Berettas and going back all in with Glocks. Yeah, I'll loose some money, but in the long run, it was worth the $400 investment to learn what I have about trigger control and also allowing myself to scratch that "platform switch, greener grass" itch for the first/only time since I got serious about pistol shooting in early 2014.

However, I want to make sure that if I go back to shooting the Glock 100% of the time my trigger control won't devolve.

More backstory as to how I got here in the first place: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?35273-Seriously-considering-dumping-Glock-for-Beretta-Thoughts

[snow white]

It's funny because I'm doing the exact opposite! I learned to shoot pistols on DA/SA guns and used them for years. At some point I convinced myself that I needed to switch to striker fired pistols and ended up buying multiple and used them for quite some time for both EDC as well as competition and classes. Shooting striker fired guns exclusively for an extended period of time made me realize how much I love da/sa and how much I prefer it in almost every way over striker fired. I find I'm actually faster ( and no less accurate) on my first shot from the draw due to being able to start my trigger press sooner in my draw stroke resulting in my shot breaking as soon as the sights come into alignment. I realize the same can be achieved with striker fire but for me its easier with the da/sa. I believe having that longer more deliberate initial trigger pull is superior for EDC, as well as the comfort of keeping my thumb on the hammer when holstering AIWB, I could go on but will not.
All this being said these are personal preferences and opinions and what really matters is training/ familiarization with whatever platform you adopt.

[Bucky]

Same here. Great point. A year ago, the safety on my Shadow2 gut bumped on in the middle of a stage, and I lost maybe 5 seconds trying to figure out what was wrong.

As a long time 1911/2011 shooter, I put the extended on my Shadow 2 and ride it just like a 1911.

I lost my division at a state IDPA championship once when my 92FS Vertec found its way on safe, and like you couldn’t figure out WTF. I subsequently sold all my “F” models.

[Clusterfrack]

As a long time 1911/2011 shooter, I put the extended on my Shadow 2 and ride it just like a 1911.

I lost my division at a state IDPA championship once when my 92FS Vertec found its way on safe, and like you couldn’t figure out WTF. I subsequently sold all my “F” models.

I put in heavy safety detent springs in all my Shadow2s. Problem solved.
http://dsperman.com/products/CZSpring/CZSpring.html

[ASH556]

You mentioned “the warts are showing...” Do you mind sharing what those are? The only things I am missing at the moment are the lighter weight and the ability to mount a dot. I’m going to pick up an mos gun sometime, just to try the dot once some more reviews come in on SRO and ACRO. Of course, I may just pickup a Holosun since I’m just interested in playing with the idea. I digress...

I’m just curious as what you are seeing as the downsides now.

Size, weight, comfort to carry. Maybe warts was the wrong word. It’s just not as light and easy to conceal or carry as a Glock. Now that I’ve spent almost 3,000 rounds with the Beretta, I’ve improved as a shooter for sure, but don’t see much of a performance gap between the Glock and the Beretta to warrant the extra weight, thickness, etc.

I’m probably to the place of selling one Beretta. Keeping one Beretta as a “soul” gun, and funding another Glock with the Beretta proceeds, so I keep a spare of my main platform (going back to Glock).

[CLaw]

Cool. Thx. What size Glock are you concealing? I feel like the 92 conceals as well at a 17 size wise. The grip seems more in line with a 19. The weight is a thing for sure.


Size, weight, comfort to carry. Maybe warts was the wrong word. ItÂ’s just not as light and easy to conceal or carry as a Glock. Now that IÂ’ve spent almost 3,000 rounds with the Beretta, IÂ’ve improved as a shooter for sure, but donÂ’t see much of a performance gap between the Glock and the Beretta to warrant the extra weight, thickness, etc.

I’m probably to the place of selling one Beretta. Keeping one Beretta as a “soul” gun, and funding another Glock with the Beretta proceeds, so I keep a spare of my main platform (going back to Glock).

[ASH556]

Cool. Thx. What size Glock are you concealing? I feel like the 92 conceals as well at a 17 size wise. The grip seems more in line with a 19. The weight is a thing for sure.

17 length grip. You’re right there but Beretta definitely feels thicker and has pokey levers.

[CLaw]

Yeah, it does seem pokey too. I guess that I never really appreciate how rounded and smooth things are on the Glock. I do notice it more when manipulating the weapon. I’m not sure if this has any real practical impact on me. I’m to new to shooting really to be able to tell my elbow from my butthole.


[ QUOTE=ASH556;877240]17 length grip. You’re right there but Beretta definitely feels thicker and has pokey levers.[/QUOTE]

[03RN]

Yeah, it does seem pokey too. I guess that I never really appreciate how rounded and smooth things are on the Glock. I do notice it more when manipulating the weapon. I’m not sure if this has any real practical impact on me. I’m to new to shooting really to be able to tell my elbow from my butthole.


[ QUOTE=ASH556;877240]17 length grip. You’re right there but Beretta definitely feels thicker and has pokey levers.[/QUOTE]

Damn, I'm just weird then. I find the Beretta much rounder and less pokey with less right angles than a glock. I don't find the levers pokey at all.

The rear of the slide and the bottom of the grip are the 2 spots that typically print when I carry a g19.

[CLaw]

Damn, I'm just weird then. I find the Beretta much rounder and less pokey with less right angles than a glock. I don't find the levers pokey at all.

The rear of the slide and the bottom of the grip are the 2 spots that typically print when I carry a g19.

03RN I agree with you when it comes to printing. I feel the back of my 92 slide and prints less than the Glocks. I feel the base of the rear of the grip also tends to print less. I do feel that the girth of the grip can cause it to print laterally more if I am wearing tighter shirts. Hope I am describing that all well enough.

When I handle and manipulate the guns is when I notice sharper edges and corners more than a Glock, but I'm not really sure if this has any practical pro- or con-. I think it just is what it is, and it has zero to do with what I chose to carry. I'd love to handle one of LTT's Carry Bevel packages.

I didn't mean to derail the conversation.

Back to the OP's original post, I'm very happy with the 92 DA/SA system, and I think it is helping to make me a better shooter. As a new shooter, it has made it easier for me to dryfire, and I am getting better tactile and realistic feedback without needing to cycle the slide every time. As I am really trying to focus on the fundamentals, safety, and learning, I feel that the DA/SA system is much better for me at the moment. I feel more comfortable with the longer first trigger pull when it comes to drawing and holstering the gun, and I feel more comfortable deliberateness of that first pull in a self-defense situation. I also never really noticed how much that I disliked the Glock trigger until I went back to it after shooting my 92 for a while.

I was always told that for a new shooter, just get a G19 which is what I did. But, for me personally, I've started to go down a different path. When I hear folks talking about what handgun to chose for self-defense, I always seem to hear the following three items of the most importance: reliability, sights you can see, and a trigger you can work... So, if one feels that the DA/SA trigger system has made them better, why chose to leave it for another system? If we value weight, pokeyness, and concealability as less critical to the shooting process, are they worth putting up with for a better trigger that makes you a better shooter? For me so far, the answer has been yes, as long as I can keep my pants up and dress around the gun. Losing weight has done a lot more for my comfort than carrying a lighter gun at this point in my life. Now, if my eye sight gets any worse and I can't focus on the irons anymore...