Oakley 'assault' gloves - PPE or 'deadly weapon'?

[Wendell]

Ottawa police Const. Daniel Montsion is facing charges of manslaughter, aggravated assault and assault with a weapon, which were laid last week by Ontario's police watchdog, the Special Investigations Unit. A police source close to the investigation said the gloves are central to Montsion's assault with a weapon charge. Montsion's release conditions state he's prohibited from possessing weapons, and also prohibited from possessing "any gloves with hardened knuckle plating."
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/ottawa-police-reinforced-gloves-abdirahman-abdi-1.4018998 (https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/ottawa-police-reinforced-gloves-abdirahman-abdi-1.4018998)

[Wendell]

The Ottawa police officer has pleaded not guilty to manslaughter, aggravated assault and assault with a weapon in the death of Abdirahman Abdi in July 2016. The Crown alleges Abdi died as the result of repeated blows to his head administered by Montsion, who was wearing a pair of the Oakley assault gloves.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/assault-gloves-montsion-uniform-1.5064376

[entropy]

Oh for the love of God......

We”re they black? Detachable fingers?

I love our North neighbors, but sometimes I think the long winters have some detrimental effects....

[the Schwartz]

Oh for the love of God......

We”re they black? Detachable fingers?

And that "thumb thing that goes up"?

[MistWolf]

And that "between the index & ring finger thing that goes up"

Fixed it for ya

[the Schwartz]

Fixed it for ya

Nicely done, sir. Nicely done...

😎

[TAZ]

So I’m confused. The Constable supposedly punched a handcuffed and compliant dude a few times abs they have issues with his gloves???

Sounds like the department is in CYA mode. The guy probably bought the gloves on his own and the dept will claim immunity or something like that fit the pending lottery the family is going after.

[RevolverRob]

I guess it depends on how you articulate what the "knuckle plating" is for.

To be honest, I've always thought the hardened knuckle plating in these types of gloves was precisely for punching people to be more damaging than a standard fist.

For starters, the origin of this design* is in motorcycle gloves, there it made sense, because the hardened polymer/rubber is highly abrasion resistant. Originally, they were found on dirt-bike/off-road type gloves and were really meant to protect your knuckles from falls and/or brush/tree branches/etc. The use of them in sport biking racing makes sense for the same reason full body suit leathers do. I'm not convinced they make much sense on the street. Especially, not in the context of kevlar reinforced leathers, with impact absorbing/dissipating foam.

The use as "assault" gloves, has always struck me as stupid. The first argument was that the plastic knuckles helped protect the hands in the event of a fight, reducing the damage of impact. But that's totally bunk - because impact force dissipating gloves use a multi-layered approach, which protection of the fingers and knuckles coming from layers or rubber and foam, not hard plastic sewn onto relatively soft and pliable nylon/leather. And what's more, they have used that approach for ~3 decades now. Where as the "assault glove" trend (as currently expressed) has only existed for < 20 years.

Simply put hardened knuckles on gloves have a very narrow practical, legitimate, use window. And in most cases, I don't get the impression they are being used within that window.

*Noted here, because yes I know, hardened knuckle gloves pre-date motorcycles or motorcycle versions. Spike/sap gloves are similar, but not the same. The Oakley "Assault" gloves are more in the vein of late 1980s/early 1990s gloves meant for motorcycling, BMX, and skateboarding.

[txdpd]

I can't say how they fit everyone, but my experience with those is that the knuckle "plating" is on top of the knuckles and not in front of them. If you want to bitch slap someone the guard will probably help break bones in your hand, but they won't contact anyone when punching.

[TGS]

I guess it depends on how you articulate what the "knuckle plating" is for.

To be honest, I've always thought the hardened knuckle plating in these types of gloves was precisely for punching people to be more damaging than a standard fist.

For starters, the origin of this design* is in motorcycle gloves, there it made sense, because the hardened polymer/rubber is highly abrasion resistant. Originally, they were found on dirt-bike/off-road type gloves and were really meant to protect your knuckles from falls and/or brush/tree branches/etc. The use of them in sport biking racing makes sense for the same reason full body suit leathers do. I'm not convinced they make much sense on the street. Especially, not in the context of kevlar reinforced leathers, with impact absorbing/dissipating foam.

The use as "assault" gloves, has always struck me as stupid. The first argument was that the plastic knuckles helped protect the hands in the event of a fight, reducing the damage of impact. But that's totally bunk - because impact force dissipating gloves use a multi-layered approach, which protection of the fingers and knuckles coming from layers or rubber and foam, not hard plastic sewn onto relatively soft and pliable nylon/leather. And what's more, they have used that approach for ~3 decades now. Where as the "assault glove" trend (as currently expressed) has only existed for < 20 years.

Simply put hardened knuckles on gloves have a very narrow practical, legitimate, use window. And in most cases, I don't get the impression they are being used within that window.

*Noted here, because yes I know, hardened knuckle gloves pre-date motorcycles or motorcycle versions. Spike/sap gloves are similar, but not the same. The Oakley "Assault" gloves are more in the vein of late 1980s/early 1990s gloves meant for motorcycling, BMX, and skateboarding.

Fighting work being different than industrial work, impact-resistance need not meet/be-modelled around ANSI-rated impact gloves for OSHA indemnification.

We need our hands to still be usable, so there's obviously going to need to be less impact resistance within the gloves for dexterity's sake. Even the little rubber "veins" running along the top of the hand serve a purpose, even if it doesn't meet ANSI specifications for working in a factory.

[Zincwarrior]

I guess it depends on how you articulate what the "knuckle plating" is for.


For starters, the origin of this design* is in motorcycle gloves, there it made sense, because the hardened polymer/rubber is highly abrasion resistant. Originally, they were found on dirt-bike/off-road type gloves and were really meant to protect your knuckles from falls and/or brush/tree branches/etc. The use of them in sport biking racing makes sense for the same reason full body suit leathers do.

Back in ancient times when I did dirt bike trail riding as a kid, mine were leather with plastic over the knuckles and fingers, like a knight's gauntlet. In fact, they were excellent in neighborhood stick fights, along with bad chivalrous accent. With my boots with plates, chest guard, helmet and armguards, I was ideally suited for any stick, rock, mud, and bb gun wars. Good times.

[RevolverRob]

I can't say how they fit everyone, but my experience with those is that the knuckle "plating" is on top of the knuckles and not in front of them. If you want to bitch slap someone the guard will probably help break bones in your hand, but they won't contact anyone when punching.

Interesting. For me they fit over the top of the knuckles almost like MMA gloves. Which makes them worse than MMA gloves for dexterity and more likely to transfer energy to in a hand breaking way.


Fighting work being different than industrial work, impact-resistance need not meet/be-modelled around ANSI-rated impact gloves for OSHA indemnification.

We need our hands to still be usable, so there's obviously going to need to be less impact resistance within the gloves for dexterity's sake. Even the little rubber "veins" running along the top of the hand serve a purpose, even if it doesn't meet ANSI specifications for working in a factory.

That is very true, but even for fighting I'd likely prefer the rubber "veins" vs. the hard plastic bits, if simply because the rubber bits pad my hand too. The Oakley Assaults I've handled (and to be clear, I'm talking with ones with the HARD plastic knuckles, and maybe they've changed/updated the design in the ~10 years or so since I put on a pair) had virtually no padding on the inside of the plastic either. It seemed like a good way to end up with a stack of broken carpals, given that the "knuckles" aren't held super steady (I found even with a tight fit, they slid around on my hand, where as a pair of brass knuckles held in the hand, simply do not). And then there are the dexterity issues as well.

I'm all for officers wearing gloves, I don't blame anyone on that front. Gloves are important protective pieces. I've given away half-a-dozen pairs of Hatch Dura-Thins to law enforcement friends, to make sure they are well protected. I'm just not sure the hard plastic knuckles give you much, if anything of an advantage. And as we're seeing, may be they are a liability in our litigious-prone world.

[OlongJohnson]

Seems reasonably likely that if they were branded with a different word, this wouldn't be happening.

[Wendell]

...The guy probably bought the gloves on his own...

The first article (https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/ottawa-police-reinforced-gloves-abdirahman-abdi-1.4018998) said that the gloves were department-issued.


According to a police source, Montsion was issued the gloves in his role as a member of the direct action response team, or DART, which monitors street gang activity for the guns and gangs unit. Montsion was assisting patrol officers the day the confrontation took place. The police source added that Ottawa police don't get specific training on how to use the gloves.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/ottawa-police-reinforced-gloves-abdirahman-abdi-1.4018998

[HCM]

I guess it depends on how you articulate what the "knuckle plating" is for.

To be honest, I've always thought the hardened knuckle plating in these types of gloves was precisely for punching people to be more damaging than a standard fist.

For starters, the origin of this design* is in motorcycle gloves, there it made sense, because the hardened polymer/rubber is highly abrasion resistant. Originally, they were found on dirt-bike/off-road type gloves and were really meant to protect your knuckles from falls and/or brush/tree branches/etc. The use of them in sport biking racing makes sense for the same reason full body suit leathers do. I'm not convinced they make much sense on the street. Especially, not in the context of kevlar reinforced leathers, with impact absorbing/dissipating foam.

The use as "assault" gloves, has always struck me as stupid. The first argument was that the plastic knuckles helped protect the hands in the event of a fight, reducing the damage of impact. But that's totally bunk - because impact force dissipating gloves use a multi-layered approach, which protection of the fingers and knuckles coming from layers or rubber and foam, not hard plastic sewn onto relatively soft and pliable nylon/leather. And what's more, they have used that approach for ~3 decades now. Where as the "assault glove" trend (as currently expressed) has only existed for < 20 years.

Simply put hardened knuckles on gloves have a very narrow practical, legitimate, use window. And in most cases, I don't get the impression they are being used within that window.

*Noted here, because yes I know, hardened knuckle gloves pre-date motorcycles or motorcycle versions. Spike/sap gloves are similar, but not the same. The Oakley "Assault" gloves are more in the vein of late 1980s/early 1990s gloves meant for motorcycling, BMX, and skateboarding.

The Oakley gloves have plastic knuckles. Im not a fan as they limit dexterity but are for protecting the hands against bumps when doing “tactical shit” and are not at all useful in punching someone.

Calling these “assault gloves” dates from the era when wearing bump helmets instead of actual ballistic protection was thought to be “cool.”

It’s is all a bunch of bullshit.

[PD Sgt.]

The Oakley gloves have plastic knuckles. Im not a fan as they limit dexterity but are for protecting the hands against bumps when doing “tactical shit” and are not at all useful in punching someone.

Calling these “assault gloves” dates from the era when wearing bump helmets instead of actual ballistic protection was thought to be “cool.”

It’s is all a bunch of bullshit.


This is similar to my understanding as well. They were designed to offer some protection against incidental bumps when doing things like swinging a ram or clearing rooms.

[TCB]

I stopped punching people after breaking a finger on a guys head who didn’t want to get with the program, hard knuckle gloves wouldn’t have helped. Hammer fist strikes and throwing elbows are much more effective and safer anyway.

[Wendell]

Former Toronto deputy police chief Michael Federico is an expert on the use of force by police, and has advised the Ontario and Canadian Associations of Chiefs of Police on the topic. All sworn police officers in Ontario are authorized to carry a firearm, pepper spray, a baton and a Taser, according to Federico. The correct response by a police officer facing a threatening situation is subjective, but their top priority should be to protect life, Federico told the court. That applies to the life of the suspect, the public and the officer in question. "Police officers have authority to use as much force as necessary to carry out their duty," Federico said, but there are caveats: "It has to be reasonable, it has to be necessary."
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/assault-gloves-montsion-trial-province-1.5061121

[Tactical Black Belt]

I stopped punching people after breaking a finger on a guys head who didn’t want to get with the program, hard knuckle gloves wouldn’t have helped. Hammer fist strikes and throwing elbows are much more effective and safer anyway.

No parts of the skull that protects the brain is a safe target for a bare knuckle punch. Neither is the point of the chin or anywhere near the teeth. The cheek bone directly below the eye is eggshell thin and will fail before your knuckles do.

[TGS]

Where my mind goes everytime Tacticool Black Belt posts:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hzh9koy7b1E

[Rex G]

The Oakley gloves have plastic knuckles. Im not a fan as they limit dexterity but are for protecting the hands against bumps when doing “tactical shit” and are not at all useful in punching someone.

Calling these “assault gloves” dates from the era when wearing bump helmets instead of actual ballistic protection was thought to be “cool.”

It’s is all a bunch of bullshit.

This. The solid plastic knuckle covering is protective. The Oakley gloves actually protect an opponent, too, became my skinny, boney hands have very sharp, prominent knuckles.