M1152 & M1153 9mm Loads Info

[Tokarev]

https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2019/4/23/m1152-m1153-the-army-s-new-9-mm-luger-loads/

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[JHC]

115 grain flat point FMJ at over 1300 fps. :D


I hope they're right about the recoil spring issue vis a vis the issues with the M882 as I expect there are many metric fucktons of that around.

[the Schwartz]

Interesting article.

According to the article, "The ball [M1152] cartridge is intended for use against enemy personnel, for training, and for force protection."

Assuming that the Army is still relying upon the BRL E model discussed here to assess the potential terminal effectiveness of their anti-personnel munitions,


[I]EKE/AKE:
An outgrowth of the earlier KE theory, the Expected Kinetic Energy (EKE) model was developed by the U.S. military in 1975 to assess bullet lethality; in 1977 this new EKE model became the U.S. recommended method for the NATO small arms trials and also established it as the official Army Model. The EKE model estimated P(I/H) by correlating the weighted sum of experimentally determined, incremental kinetic energy deposits in 20% gelatin with existing estimates of P(I/H) from animal experiments. Note--although the notation “P(I/H)” was and is used in the literature, the meaning assigned was expected value of incapacitation given a hit; the preferred modern notation is E(I/H), expected level of incapacitation, in order to avoid the widespread misunderstanding that “P(I/H)” is a probability of incapacitation. EKE was later renamed AKE (ARRADCOM Kinetic Energy) and remains a current Army and NATO standard.

To compute the AKE of a particular projectile, ARL obtained the velocity decay curve by shooting into a 38 cm long block of 20% gelatin. The event is recorded with high seed cameras and the velocity versus distance kinetic energy decay curve is extracted by analyzing the camera footage on a frame by frame basis--this is called “dynamic” gel testing. From this decay curve, ARL can derive the energy deposit function within the gelatin medium. This function is then fed into a complex algorithm to calculate the expected level of incapacitation given a hit, or E (I/H). The AKE method for bullets is based upon summing the incremental kinetic energy lost in the gel block multiplied by the probability the projectile is still in the body at the same depth of penetration in the body component (thorax, abdomen, etc…) being evaluated. These probabilities have been generated for the whole body and for a number of specified major body components. The probabilities were estimated from horizontal shots on a number of shot-lines at different angles around a standing male body. This weighted value, AKE, is then inserted into an empirical correlation to predict a level of incapacitation given a hit. It is important to note that current dynamic testing (AKE and E(I/H)) actually measures the energy lost by the projectile, and NOT the damage done by that energy.

Unfortunately, like its KE predecessor, as well as the RII/COMPUTERMAN, EKE/AKE methodology has numerous flaws, including a continued reliance on kinetic energy deposit as a measure of wounding rather than assessing potential physiologic and anatomic damage potential, an overly simplistic and inaccurate COMPUTERMAN anatomic and physiological model that does not account for different tissue types along a shot-line through the body, an inability for the COMPUTERMAN model to assess shot-lines other than standing and account for intervening body sections, projectiles that in reality have quite distinct terminal performance end up have their reported performance blurred to “just about the same” as all other projectiles when the expected levels of incapacitation are computed using the erroneous COMPUTERMAN model, an overemphasis on temporary stretch effects over permanent crush injuries, an inability to assess the synergistic effects of fragmenting projectiles, and ignoring the requirement that projectiles must have adequate penetration to reach critical anatomic structures deep within the body from any angle and despite intervening objects. AKE also fails to account for projectile total penetration, yaw effects, and bullet fragmentation. Finally, the dynamic AKE method requires expensive test measurement equipment and extensive data reduction and analysis.

/snip/

COMPUTERMAN/ORCA:
U.S. Army Research Laboratory’s Survivability Lethality Analysis Directorate’s (ARL/SLAD) Operational Requirement-based Casualty Assessment (ORCA) computer modeling system was initiated in 1992 and has continued to the present. The COMPUTERMAN model of the human body is composed of a large number of horizontal cross-sections in which all tissues (muscles, organs, bones, blood vessels, and nerves) are dimensioned in detail. The limbs can be articulated to some degree (positions that cannot be created include arms or legs crossing in front of the body). Shot-lines through COMPUTERMAN are constrained to be straight lines between entry and exit points. A particular trajectory in the body is computed from the parameters of the fragment; and the determination of the resulting incapacitation is made from the hole size made in the various tissues encountered. COMPUTERMAN makes estimates of level of incapacitation based on the levels of functioning present in the four limbs at specified time intervals after wounding and on their importance to specific missions.

ORCA attempts to be a more comprehensive model for estimating incapacitation from a number of classes of body injury. ORCA does include a far wider range of injury mechanisms, extends the measure of incapacitation beyond the four limbs, and uses a more detailed model of the human body. Unfortunately, ORCA still contains as its ballistic insult subroutine, a refined version of the flawed COMPUTERMAN, because of this, the current ballistic wounding model is the same as COMPUTERMAN. The ORCA model proposes several metrics that attempt to evaluate the impairment caused by injuries to the body, for example, the Weighted Task Average Impairment (WTAI) metric provides the supposed percent reduction of impaired tasks relevant to a specific activity or job. Another metric, the Job Impairment (JI) is used to determine if an average human can successfully perform the totality of tasks that in aggregate constitute a specific job, for example infantry rifleman, vehicle crewman, helicopter pilot, etc... ORCA is compromised by a strong reliance on adaptation of previously flawed COMPUTERMAN models & EKE/AKE methodology, a failure to fully appreciate the infinite variety of stochastic variables inherent in trying to predict the potential incapacitation of a human, and an excessive averaging of measurements leading to loss of data fidelity (with too many fuzzy data points and gross averaging of physiological responses, a hit from a .22LR begins to look similar to a hit from a .338 Lap Mag).

―it does not appear that they were too concerned with improving lethality significantly, at least in accordance with that particular metric as they evaluate it.


In our tests in 1985, XM882 propelled a 124-gr. round-nose FMJ out of the 5" barrel of an M9 at an average of 1273 f.p.s., delivering 446 ft.-lbs. of energy at 15 ft. Using an Oehler Model 43 and firing the new ammunition out of a 4.7"-barreled P320-M17, M1152 with the 115-gr. bullet was at 1326 f.p.s. and 449 ft.-lbs. of energy, while the M1153 clocked 962 f.p.s. with 302 ft.-lbs., both at 15 ft.

Evaluating both options using the US Army's preferred method for assessing lethality (the BRL E[I/H] model): the M882 at 1,273 fps produces an E[I/H] of 0.6934 while the M1152 at 1,326 fps produces an E[I/H] of 0.6977.

I wonder how many millions of tax-payer dollars were spent to make that 'improvement'? :D

[spyderco monkey]

Both FMJ velocities seemed very high.

Winchester NATO 124gr is 1200fps from a 5" barrel:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3wRT7vVqWM

So the 1276fps velocity from the 1985 era load is impressively high.

Meanwhile the 115gr FMJ at over 1300fps is bizarre - but I want it to be true. That would make a great training load to go along with 9BPLE.

[JHC]

Both FMJ velocities seemed very high.

Winchester NATO 124gr is 1200fps from a 5" barrel:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3wRT7vVqWM

So the 1276fps velocity from the 1985 era load is impressively high.

Meanwhile the 115gr FMJ at over 1300fps is bizarre - but I want it to be true. That would make a great training load to go along with 9BPLE.

And a bear skull buster!!! Ah garooonteee! :D

GJM

[revchuck38]

Both FMJ velocities seemed very high.

Winchester NATO 124gr is 1200fps from a 5" barrel:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3wRT7vVqWM

So the 1276fps velocity from the 1985 era load is impressively high.

Meanwhile the 115gr FMJ at over 1300fps is bizarre - but I want it to be true. That would make a great training load to go along with 9BPLE.

His velocities are consistent with what I've gotten from Winchester's version. PPU NATO-spec 124-grain went ~20 fps faster, while MEN went ~20 fps slower, so apparently, it's where it should be.

Federal apparently loaded this round at the beginning of its adoption by the US. I once had a five-gallon bucket of FC 85 9x19 once-fired brass that I de-primed and chamfered (got it in the late 80s when 9mm brass was hard to find) that I'm assuming was NATO hardball. The specs may have been hotter back then. Also, the specs may have been changed in response to the "cracked slide" brouhaha.

[Thy.Will.Be.Done]

And a bear skull buster!!! Ah garooonteee! :D

GJM

Along with anything else you might need to bust through to get to vital meat.

I wiould like some of this if it becomes available to the public, as it is exactly the type of load I prefer in 9mm for general use and practice because I am not overly concerned about overpenetration... on the contrary actually in this caliber.

[the Schwartz]

Both FMJ velocities seemed very high.

Winchester NATO 124gr is 1200fps from a 5" barrel:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3wRT7vVqWM

So the 1276fps velocity from the 1985 era load is impressively high.

Meanwhile the 115gr FMJ at over 1300fps is bizarre - but I want it to be true. That would make a great training load to go along with 9BPLE.

I appreciate that he chooses to run the ammo through barrels of different lengths. Kind of wish he has done so through a Glock 17, but I suspect that the difference between that and the 5'' S&W wouldn't be worth noticing.

[the Schwartz]

And a bear skull buster!!! Ah garooonteee! :D

GJM

Reminds of this guy:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=3&v=87-WlhWwLBo

:)

[Clusterfrack]

I don't like 115gr 9mm, and velocity in itself doesn't impress me. Looks like cheap practice ammo to me. The 147gr load looks good--assuming the bullet is well designed.

[the Schwartz]

I don't like 115gr 9mm, and velocity in itself doesn't impress me. Looks like cheap practice ammo to me. The 147gr load looks good--assuming the bullet is well designed.

Same here, however....

If for some reason I was forced to carry a 9mm 115-grain JHP, I'd probably go with a 9mm 115-grain XTP JHP like this-

https://www.underwoodammo.com/collections/handgun-ammo/products/9mm-luger-p-115-grain-jacket-hollow-point?variant=18785726857273

[Thy.Will.Be.Done]

I can agree with not liking 115 gr. for hollow point loadings, but I think it makes sense for FMJ to go on the lighter side when you are guaranteeing sufficient penetration... best to get highest velocity in this case..

[LtDave]

This ammo looks suspiciously like the M1152 load. 115 grain, FMJ FP. Listed at 1300 fps. Comes in brown boxes.

37595

Pretty good groups out of my HK P30L. 1.375" in the x-ring at 20 yards.

[revchuck38]

Okay, dammit, where did you get it? :)

[jetfire]

I don't like 115gr 9mm, and velocity in itself doesn't impress me. Looks like cheap practice ammo to me. The 147gr load looks good--assuming the bullet is well designed.

Word on the street is that it's basically a bonded Ranger/PDX1 bullet, with some mods which is a good thing. I'd like to think that it will be an improvement over the old Mk243 Mod 0, which is the current standard issue JHP round, and is also 147 grains.

[Baldanders]

Interesting that the rationale for JHP is to 'reduce collateral damage.' I wonder who'll actually get it and if they will be using it from a subgun or not.

[jetfire]

Interesting that the rationale for JHP is to 'reduce collateral damage.' I wonder who'll actually get it and if they will be using it from a subgun or not.

I can't speak for the Army because they do strange things, but the people in the blue who currently are issued JHP are: special operations troops such as PJs, CCTs, and SOW/T; sometimes the TAC/P dudes get it but only if they're assigned to an Army unit that would also have it; all AF OSI agents; and last but not least all Security Forces troops for CONUS LE and base defense. That won't change when we get saddled with the M18s and the new rounds.

[LtDave]

Okay, dammit, where did you get it? :)

It’s out there. Priced at $9 to $10/box. Got mine from Ammo Supply Warehouse for $180/M.

[revchuck38]

It’s out there. Priced at $9 to $10/box. Got mine from Ammo Supply Warehouse for $180/M.

Is it this stuff (https://www.ammosupplywarehouse.com/west/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1_51&products_id=25164)? They list MV as 1190 fps, pretty much standard.

[Thy.Will.Be.Done]

This ammo looks suspiciously like the M1152 load. 115 grain, FMJ FP. Listed at 1300 fps. Comes in brown boxes.

37595

Pretty good groups out of my HK P30L. 1.375" in the x-ring at 20 yards.

From what I found it sounds like this is run off the same machines/spec as what is provided to NATO currently. Saw 9mm, .40, .38 and .45.

[LtDave]

Is it this stuff (https://www.ammosupplywarehouse.com/west/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1_51&products_id=25164)? They list MV as 1190 fps, pretty much standard.

That’s it. There seems to be a difference of opinion on the velocity. A couple vendors show 1300 fps, a couple others including ASW use the 1190 fps number. I haven’t chrono’d it.

[LtDave]

Shot some more of this today out of 3 different guns. It definitely "feels" like a 1300 fps load.
Did pretty well out of my SIG P320RX:

37618

[DocGKR]

The article is a bit fast and loose with the facts of the MHS ammo testing failures....

[Thy.Will.Be.Done]

The article is a bit fast and loose with the facts of the MHS ammo testing failures....

Can you elaborate?

[spyderco monkey]

Shot some more of this today out of 3 different guns. It definitely "feels" like a 1300 fps load.
Did pretty well out of my SIG P320RX:


Its apparently not a 1300fps load.

1207fps avg from a 5" barrel, 1134fps average from a G19:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P46OUlrJfSg

Kind of a bummer, would have made a perfect 9BPLE training analogue had it been 1300fps.

[revchuck38]

Its apparently not a 1300fps load.

1207fps avg from a 5" barrel, 1134fps average from a G19:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P46OUlrJfSg

Kind of a bummer, would have made a perfect 9BPLE training analogue had it been 1300fps.

Agree that it’s a bummer, but it’s still worth checking out due to its apparent accuracy.

[psalms144.1]

Can you elaborate?Army MHS ammo testing consisted exclusively of shooting rounds into 20 percent gelatin and then "modeling" the "lethality" of the rounds based on those results. No rounds fired through any type of standard barriers, or into the industry standard 10 percent ordnance gel.

On the other hand, the "lethality" of the ammunition was a far, far distant consideration in the selection of the pistol. Remember, the Army contract was written so a single vendor would supply weapons, ammunition, and holsters - so, basically whatever pistol was chosen, that offeror's ammo and holsters were also selected.

[DocGKR]

Sadly that information is completely accurate--worst ammo testing ever done.

[Sigfan26]

Sadly that information is completely accurate--worst ammo testing ever done.

The projectile looks (from the outside only) like the old 147 SXT.


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[the Schwartz]

The projectile looks (from the outside only) like the old 147 SXT.


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It kind of reminded me of the somewhat 'newer' PDX-1 stuff.

[Sigfan26]

It kind of reminded me of the somewhat 'newer' PDX-1 stuff.

I thought the opening on the point looked narrower. I could definitely be wrong, though.


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[the Schwartz]

I thought the opening on the point looked narrower. I could definitely be wrong, though.

For that matter so could I (be wrong). Hard tellin' just eye-ballin' it. ;)

[DocGKR]

Might be nice if the Army had actually tested it against standard intermediate barriers using a widely accepted protocol...

[the Schwartz]

Might be nice if the Army had actually tested it against standard intermediate barriers using a widely accepted protocol...

Although I am sure that procurement probably doesn't work this way, if the Army was looking to save a few bucks by avoiding the T&E process, don't you think that they would have been doing a huge favor for the personnel who ultimately have to rely upon the ammo that they selected by choosing a design that has already been proven such as the HST or the Gold Dot?

[okie john]

Also no mention of differing POIs with two loads that far apart in bullet weight.


Okie John

[Sigfan26]

Also no mention of differing POIs with two loads that far apart in bullet weight.


Okie John

I’m sure the 115gr bullet is specially designed by Winchester to defy physics (sarcasm)


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[DocGKR]

"Also no mention of differing POIs with two loads that far apart in bullet weight."

That would have required correctly conducted accuracy and precision testing....

[jetfire]

"Also no mention of differing POIs with two loads that far apart in bullet weight."

That would have required correctly conducted accuracy and precision testing....

It would also require troops to have a mandate to actually occasionally train with the JHP ammo, which if the Army does anything like us, doesn't exist. In nearly 7 years I can count on zero fingers the number of times we've actually fired our duty JHP rounds. All of our training is either with 124gr NATO ball or 100gr frangible, and our issue ammo for CONUS stuff and force protection is 147gr JHP.

[Jeep]

"Also no mention of differing POIs with two loads that far apart in bullet weight."

That would have required correctly conducted accuracy and precision testing....


Ah, but what do accuracy, precision, and intermediate barriers have to do with . . . "increased lethality?" After all, not only does the ammunition itself have "increased lethality" but the M17 has "increased lethality" over the M9.

Now old-fashioned mall ninja level 3 trauma surgeons like you have the old fashioned idea that science depends on measurement, that without accurate measurement it isn't scientific, and that repeating a mantra of "increased lethality" when there are no measurements supporting it is simply public-relations babble.

But this is not only the Army, and not only the New Army, but it is the new-improved Army where old-fashioned measurement is no longer needed. "Increased lethality" is measured by public-relations experts, who have found that the average soldier (sorry, I mean, "warrior"--particularly the chairborne type) feels safer if his or her weapons are deemed to have "increased lethality." And so they are.

Doc, you really have to move into current reality, and move beyond this obsession with accurate measurement. What is important is not accurate measurement but in manipulating words so they mean what we want them to mean, not more or less.

[Suvorov]

Also no mention of differing POIs with two loads that far apart in bullet weight.


Okie John

Given the amount of pistol training the average soldier gets, this is of no consequence as 90% of the rounds are going to go low and left and the other 10% low and right. :rolleyes:

But that doesn't matter to anyone involved in this whole waste of tax payer $$$.......

[JHC]

This ammo looks suspiciously like the M1152 load. 115 grain, FMJ FP. Listed at 1300 fps. Comes in brown boxes.

37595

Pretty good groups out of my HK P30L. 1.375" in the x-ring at 20 yards.


I'm curious if this heavier slug will be this fast and what that is like in pistols.



37884

[TiroFijo]

I'm curious if this heavier slug will be this fast and what that is like in pistols.



37884

That Norma load claims 1345 fps out of a 17" barrel. I guess it does aprox. 1200 out of a 4" barrel.

BTW, a 115 gr @ 1300 fps has approximately the same recoil impulse as a 124gr @ 1205 fps load.

[Jeep]

I'm curious if this heavier slug will be this fast and what that is like in pistols.

[/ATTACH]

Here is a possibly relevant historical fact--or at least a factoid. When Sweden sent peacekeepers to the Congo in 1964, many of them carried Karl Gustav, "Swedish K," submachine guns. Those guns did not do well against the Simba warriors, who were given ju-ju charms that they were told would repel bullets. They turned out not to be real good at repelling bullets, but excellent at convincing the Simbas to keep going after being hit by a burst of 9mm.

The story is that the Swedes--who couldn't conceive of violating the Hague convention and using soft or hollow point bullets--contracted with Norma for an uploaded 9mm round that they could be sure would penetrate. Of course, the former FMJ 9mm rounds had been fully penetrating--just not stopping--the Simbas. (See M882). Surprisingly, the new ammo wasn't much better. You had to hit a Simba with a bunch of rounds to make sure he'd go down.

I'm wondering whether this Norma load is based on the uploaded ammo ammo they made 50 some years ago since it to was primarily designed for longer-barreled weapons.

[JHC]

Here is a possibly relevant historical fact--or at least a factoid. When Sweden sent peacekeepers to the Congo in 1964, many of them carried Karl Gustav, "Swedish K," submachine guns. Those guns did not do well against the Simba warriors, who were given ju-ju charms that they were told would repel bullets. They turned out not to be real good at repelling bullets, but excellent at convincing the Simbas to keep going after being hit by a burst of 9mm.

The story is that the Swedes--who couldn't conceive of violating the Hague convention and using soft or hollow point bullets--contracted with Norma for an uploaded 9mm round that they could be sure would penetrate. Of course, the former FMJ 9mm rounds had been fully penetrating--just not stopping--the Simbas. (See M882). Surprisingly, the new ammo wasn't much better. You had to hit a Simba with a bunch of rounds to make sure he'd go down.

I'm wondering whether this Norma load is based on the uploaded ammo ammo they made 50 some years ago since it to was primarily designed for longer-barreled weapons.

"Is that a true story Sheriff?"

Sheriff Tom Bell: "Its true that its a story."

:D

Could be all of the above. One has to wonder how solid those hits were, what from full auto bursts etc. On and around OIF I read an end user argue that M882 from a M9 was plenty effective with high chest hits; that coming from an end user that understood that's the sweet spot on the torso. IDK.

[Jeep]

"Is that a true story Sheriff?"

Sheriff Tom Bell: "Its true that its a story."

:D

Could be all of the above. One has to wonder how solid those hits were, what from full auto bursts etc. On and around OIF I read an end user argue that M882 from a M9 was plenty effective with high chest hits; that coming from an end user that understood that's the sweet spot on the torso. IDK.

I don't know. I knew some SF types who used Swedish K's and Browning Hi-Powers "over the line" in Laos, and they argued about the same thing. I'd think highish, center-of-the-chest shots, and shots that hit bone would work, but some had less-than-stellar reviews of 9mm FMJ based on up close and personal experience. Of course, the NVA tended to be very skinny so the bullets were unlikely to yaw until after passing through the body. In addition, they were in heavy bush and often outright jungle so you tended to see glimpses of khaki until you were only feet awy, which meant that a lot of hits were going to be marginal.

One of the things about the Simbas (though not the NVA) is that they really did believe they couldn't be hurt so they tended to keep fighting until they suddenly dropped dead. Kind of like the Moro jihadis in the Philippines.

[spyderco monkey]

I'm curious if this heavier slug will be this fast and what that is like in pistols.



37884

The Norma is 1345fps from a 17" barrel. So out of handgun, pretty meh likely.

Here's a complete testing of almost all 9x19 loads from a 16" barrel:
https://www.glocktalk.com/threads/updated-may-7th-16-9x19-ar15-carbine-chrono-test-129-oem-rounds-chronod.1659934/

By comparison, a Standard Pressure 124gr Gold Dot is 1376fps from a 16"; standard pressure 124gr HST is 1335fps. These rounds are 1150fps from a 4" barrel.

Meanwhile, 115gr 9BPLE (1300fps from a 4.5") is 1640fps from a 16".

[DocGKR]

Hmmm....what exactly does the increased velocity offer in terms of terminal performance effects?

[Joe Mac]

I see nothing new from that box but marketing... I've chrono'd Win. NATO 124 from a carbine more than once, and gotten 1350+ (while getting @1175 from a G17). The Norma load just looks like a reasonably warm 124 ball.

[Chuck Haggard]

The Swedes were looking for more penetration back then, but through barriers it would seem;

"m/39B is the 9mm ammunition used today. It was delivered in the beginning of 1955. It has a extraordinary thick jacket that prevents it from deforming easily, and that makes it better in penetrating hard targets. Some examples: It goes through 50 layers of kevlar or 20 cm of wood or 7 cm of brick. The jacket of the projectile also leads to a higher tear and wear on the weapon. Some figures point at up to 25% higher wear on the barrel when using m/39B ammunition compared against normal 9x19 ammunition e.g. m/39.
The V0 value mentioned above is for submachine gun m/45. For a pistol the value is some 40mps lower."

http://www.amkat.se/index.php?Env=Ammo&Menu_A=30&Menu_B=40&Menu_C=10&Menu_Value_A=9x19&Menu_Value_B=Ball&Menu_Name=Ball

[the Schwartz]

The Swedes were looking for more penetration back then, but through barriers it would seem;

"m/39B is the 9mm ammunition used today. It was delivered in the beginning of 1955. It has a extraordinary thick jacket that prevents it from deforming easily, and that makes it better in penetrating hard targets. Some examples: It goes through 50 layers of kevlar or 20 cm of wood or 7 cm of brick. The jacket of the projectile also leads to a higher tear and wear on the weapon. Some figures point at up to 25% higher wear on the barrel when using m/39B ammunition compared against normal 9x19 ammunition e.g. m/39.
The V0 value mentioned above is for submachine gun m/45. For a pistol the value is some 40mps lower."

http://www.amkat.se/index.php?Env=Ammo&Menu_A=30&Menu_B=40&Menu_C=10&Menu_Value_A=9x19&Menu_Value_B=Ball&Menu_Name=Ball

Wow, that is a really thick jacket. Might even constitute >25% of total projectile mass which would make it a restricted/limited item here in the US.

[Chuck Haggard]

Wow, that is a really thick jacket. Might even constitute >25% of total projectile mass which would make it a restricted/limited item here in the US.

That ammo is exactly why said law is worded that way.

[HCM]

I don't know. I knew some SF types who used Swedish K's and Browning Hi-Powers "over the line" in Laos, and they argued about the same thing. I'd think highish, center-of-the-chest shots, and shots that hit bone would work, but some had less-than-stellar reviews of 9mm FMJ based on up close and personal experience. Of course, the NVA tended to be very skinny so the bullets were unlikely to yaw until after passing through the body. In addition, they were in heavy bush and often outright jungle so you tended to see glimpses of khaki until you were only feet awy, which meant that a lot of hits were going to be marginal.

One of the things about the Simbas (though not the NVA) is that they really did believe they couldn't be hurt so they tended to keep fighting until they suddenly dropped dead. Kind of like the Moro jihadis in the Philippines.

I am skeptical to say the least. Troops too concerned about Hague convention issues to use effective ammo are likely missing, or at least not getting solid high chest hits. Review of video from the Blackhawk down incident revealed similar results with regard to the supposedly “ineffective” green tip 5.56.

The Moro’s were not just true believers. Like many of their modern counterparts in ISIL etc they were high as kites on opium etc.

[j.d.allen]

I am skeptical to say the least. Troops too concerned about Hague convention issues to use effective ammo are likely missing, or at least not getting solid high chest hits. Review of video from the Blackhawk down incident revealed similar results with regard to the supposedly “ineffective” green tip 5.56.

The Moro’s were not just true believers. Like many of their modern counterparts in ISIL etc they were high as kites on opium etc.

or khat...

[That Guy]

Troops too concerned about Hague convention issues to use effective ammo are likely missing, or at least not getting solid high chest hits.

That sounds like you are confusing the blokes on the ground and flag officers at the HQ? I doubt that for the blokes actually doing the shooting, following Hague convention rules on projectiles was their greatest concern...?

As for getting solid hits, correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't general the general understanding of terminal ballistics around 1964 at the point where "any hit, anywhere" was widely considered a good idea? So training did not exactly emphasize hits on high center chest (not that it does that even today, in many places)?

[revchuck38]

This ammo looks suspiciously like the M1152 load. 115 grain, FMJ FP. Listed at 1300 fps. Comes in brown boxes.

37595

Pretty good groups out of my HK P30L. 1.375" in the x-ring at 20 yards.

I ordered some of this, plus some 124-grain Magtech and Fiocchi FMJ, for chronograph purposes. The plan is to run them through my P99C (3.5"), PX4 (4") and CZ-75B (4.7"). I'm actually more interested in the 124-grain loads as softer primer alternatives to Winchester NATO-spec and S&B, especially at the prices I've seen for them.

[Wayne Dobbs]

I ordered some of this, plus some 124-grain Magtech and Fiocchi FMJ, for chronograph purposes. The plan is to run them through my P99C (3.5"), PX4 (4") and CZ-75B (4.7"). I'm actually more interested in the 124-grain loads as softer primer alternatives to Winchester NATO-spec and S&B, especially at the prices I've seen for them.

Where did you buy that ammo?

[the Schwartz]

I ordered some of this, plus some 124-grain Magtech and Fiocchi FMJ, for chronograph purposes. The plan is to run them through my P99C (3.5"), PX4 (4") and CZ-75B (4.7"). I'm actually more interested in the 124-grain loads as softer primer alternatives to Winchester NATO-spec and S&B, especially at the prices I've seen for them.

I'd appreciate seeing that velocity data from those different barrel lengths here if you'd be interested in posting it. :)

[revchuck38]

Where did you buy that ammo?

I ordered it from here (https://www.ammosupplywarehouse.com/west/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1_51&products_id=25164), which is where LtDave got his from. Note that they give the velocity as 1190 fps, so I'm guessing that it's the same bullet over a different powder charge.


I'd appreciate seeing that velocity data from those different barrel lengths here if you'd be interested in posting it. :)

That's the plan. ;)

[HCM]

or khat...

Yes the Somalis chewed Khat and Khat is Stimulant but it is not a that strong a stimulant. Just like chewing coca leaves does not equal the effects of cocaine. Review of video from the incident shows lots of misses. Increasing hit ratios over iron sights was a driving factor in the Army adopting aim points just before the GWOT.

[JHC]

Hmmm....what exactly does the increased velocity offer in terms of terminal performance effects?

Providing a stout jacket, my assumption would be barrier penetration, but then, I was reading too much into the quoted velocity.

[the Schwartz]

Providing a stout jacket, my assumption would be barrier penetration, but then, I was reading too much into the quoted velocity.

Perhaps I am mistaken (would not be the first time ;) ), but I was of the impression that the terminal performance effects that Doc is alluding to are those that would occur within the human body as a result of the increased velocity of these rounds. Unfortunately, neither the Winchester (1152) nor the Norma 115-grain ball ammo have a heavier jacket so penetration against hard barriers may not be as much as we would hope for even with the increased velocity.

This is why I am so interested in revchuck38s tests; I suspect that none of the loads to be tested will do better than 1,200 fps from pistol length barrels. Of course, I would love to be surprised. :cool:

[Jeep]

I am skeptical to say the least. Troops too concerned about Hague convention issues to use effective ammo are likely missing, or at least not getting solid high chest hits. Review of video from the Blackhawk down incident revealed similar results with regard to the supposedly “ineffective” green tip 5.56.

The Moro’s were not just true believers. Like many of their modern counterparts in ISIL etc they were high as kites on opium etc.

Those are reasonable cautions. The Swedes were good soldiers (better than we understood at the time) but I doubt that they got to shoot many rounds in their training--back then (and for the most part probably now) European armies tended to give their soldiers less training ammo to shoot than we got, and of course, our soldiers did not get a lot.

In addition, it is the case that people firing full auto tend to shoot high, without realizing it, and of course, if they were shooting at over 100 meters (maybe 150) hitting a target with a K-gun isn't easy.

Yet when others (say the US SF soldiers who were officially not there) fought the Simbas it was very often a case of massed Simba charges at them, which increased the fright factor but made the targets easier to hit, so I've assumed (only an assumption, though) that these were relatively close engagements and the Swedes got nervous as the Simbas kept coming despite apparent multiple hits.

Again, I don't know. I talked to some Swedish soldiers later in the 1960's and was impressed with them but I never discussed the Congo with them.

[j.d.allen]

Yes the Somalis chewed Khat and Khat is Stimulant but it is not a that strong a stimulant. Just like chewing coca leaves does not equal the effects of cocaine. Review of video from the incident shows lots of misses. Increasing hit ratios over iron sights was a driving factor in the Army adopting aim points just before the GWOT.

I read a book written by a Marine who was in an infantry unit in the initial Iraq invasion. He said that the Iraqis had taken a concentrated form of it, and during the Marines' clearing of a village the iraqis would not go down despite multiple solid hits. He said that inside the houses they found refrigerators full of water and they had understood that it was due to the intense thirst produced by ingesting khat.

Of course I have no idea if the Somalis were on anything or not.

[j.d.allen]

Hmmm....what exactly does the increased velocity offer in terms of terminal performance effects?

Since (I believe) we are talking about FMJ rounds, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say absolutely nothing.

[TiroFijo]

The hot 9x19 mm FMJ rounds were intended to increase the effective range and penetration of SMGs in a time when compact carbines chambered in intermediate rounds were not available. But the current use for 9 mm is mainly pistols.

Today's most 9x19 NATO ball loads are relatively mild, just a notch above SAAMI spec 9 mm Luger and probably below SAAMI +P specs. NATO sttandard 9 mm "superloads" have largely disappeared...

Regarding muzzle energy, the NATO standard STANAG 4090 is exceptionally lax:

The test barrel is 7.85", the muzzle energy must be between 400 and 600 ft·lbf, and bullet weight between 108 and 128 gr.

This means that a humble SAAMI spec 115 gr 9 mm load that has about 1130 fps out of a 4" barrel, but probably does about 1270 fps in a 7.85" barrel (with 412 ft-lbs) meets the NATO spec. at the low end.

[revchuck38]

Its apparently not a 1300fps load.

1207fps avg from a 5" barrel, 1134fps average from a G19:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P46OUlrJfSg

Kind of a bummer, would have made a perfect 9BPLE training analogue had it been 1300fps.


I'd appreciate seeing that velocity data from those different barrel lengths here if you'd be interested in posting it. :)

I finally made it to the range to chronograph this stuff. Temperature was in the mid-80s, chronograph was about ten feet from the muzzle. Results are given as velocity/standard deviation. Five rounds from the Walther and CZ, six from the Beretta because there was a duplicate velocity that the chronograph didn't mark as duplicate so I fired another round. :mad:

Walther P99C, 3.5" barrel: 1139/14

Beretta PX4 full size, 4" barrel: 1165/12

CZ-75B, 4.7" barrel: 1201/15

These velocities are in line with the ones reported in the above-referenced video. All rounds fed, fired, extracted and ejected from all three guns with no issues.

While this isn't as hot as we had hoped, it's still energetic enough to ensure positive function. For reference, Federal's XM9001 round pushed a 115-grain JHP at 1175 fps from the Beretta, and it's supposedly a +P round. If I were able to carry in NJ (I'm not), I'd use the P99C and this ammo. Glad I'm planning on never going to or through NJ again. :)

[the Schwartz]

This is for the Winchester 115-grain FMJFP, yes?


I finally made it to the range to chronograph this stuff. Temperature was in the mid-80s, chronograph was about ten feet from the muzzle. Results are given as velocity/standard deviation. Five rounds from the Walther and CZ, six from the Beretta because there was a duplicate velocity that the chronograph didn't mark as duplicate so I fired another round. :mad:

Walther P99C, 3.5" barrel: 1139/14

Beretta PX4 full size, 4" barrel: 1165/12

CZ-75B, 4.7" barrel: 1201/15

These velocities are in line with the ones reported in the above-referenced video. All rounds fed, fired, extracted and ejected from all three guns with no issues.

While this isn't as hot as we had hoped, it's still energetic enough to ensure positive function. For reference, Federal's XM9001 round pushed a 115-grain JHP at 1175 fps from the Beretta, and it's supposedly a +P round. If I were able to carry in NJ (I'm not), I'd use the P99C and this ammo. Glad I'm planning on never going to or through NJ again. :)

Thanks for posting the numbers, revchuck38. It is nice to have confirmation from actual pistols (and not from factory test barrels) that give us 'real-world' answers. That CZ-75 seems to give us the best comparison of what we could expect from a typical M-9 or a 4.7'' P320, so the M1152 looks to be a standard pressure 115-grain load at best.

Have you had the chance to run the 124-grain Magtech and Fiocchi FMJ stuff that you ordered over the screens yet?

[revchuck38]

This is for the Winchester 115-grain FMJFP, yes?



Thanks for posting the numbers, revchuck38. It is nice to have confirmation from actual pistols (and not from factory test barrels) that give us 'real-world' answers. That CZ-75 seems to give us the best comparison of what we could expect from a typical M-9 or a 4.7'' P320, so the M1152 looks to be a standard pressure 115-grain load at best.

Have you had the chance to run the 124-grain Magtech and Fiocchi FMJ stuff that you ordered over the screens yet?

Yup, that data was for the Winchester load. The other loads follow:

Fiocchi 124-grain - P99C: 1085/23; PX4: 1120/27; CZ: 1135/21

Magtech 124-grain - P99C: 1107/24; PX4: 1114/18; CZ: 1150/18

I had a minor bobble with the CZ and the Fiocchi load; one round didn't quite make it up the feed ramp. I bumped the slide closed and finished the string, then checked the pistol. I had last fired it about a year ago and put it away uncleaned, then took it out today to use. Today it was dirty and dry. The CZ-75 series seems to prefer running wet, like 1911s and B92s. That's the second bobble in its life (about 8k rounds). I'm putting it down to the loose screw behind the gun. I later lubed it the way the Army taught me to lube 1911s - lock the slide back, pour oil down the slide rail until it drips out the front, flip it over and repeat, work the slide back and forth a few times and wipe it off :) - and put another ten rounds of the Fiocchi through it wth no problems.

[ranger]

I carried a pistol in the Army for 30+ years. Qualified once per year - AC and ARNG. 1911 them later M9. I shoot more pistol ammo in 6 months now at my local range now that I am retired than I did in my entire Army career as an Army Infantry officer. Yes, the special units shoot a lot more, but that is why they are special. What pistol and what ammo is kind of a moot point.

[psalms144.1]

I carried a pistol in the Army for 30+ years. Qualified once per year - AC and ARNG. 1911 them later M9. I shoot more pistol ammo in 6 months now at my local range now that I am retired than I did in my entire Army career as an Army Infantry officer. Yes, the special units shoot a lot more, but that is why they are special. What pistol and what ammo is kind of a moot point.I was lucky enough to get picked to shoot on my Brigade's pistol marksmanship team when I was a 2LT into 1LT, so I shot a LOT of 45 ammo (I'm pretty sure the handful of us on the team shot ALL the Brigade's allotment one year, because I know no one in my BN or my sister BN shot any pistol quals that year...) But, I agree with you, when I was on active, I would shoot more ammo in a month in personal training than I was allotted for training/qual in the entirety of my 12 year stint.

Having said that, I've no doubt the new JHP load is more "effective" than our old A260 JHP, and, when it comes to ball ammo, I think you can only polish a turd so much, so I don't really care about it. Of course, it WOULD have been nice if the egg heads at ARL had figured out to get a training FMJ round that was at least CLOSE in exterior ballistics to the "duty" JHP...

[ArgentFix]

FWIW this ammo, Winchester MPN SG9W (M1152?) is available here for $165/k shipped.

https://www.ableammo.com/catalog/winchester-service-grade-pistol-ammunition-sg9w-9mm-full-metal-jacket-115-rdsbx-p-156543.html

I have never bought from Able Ammo but it's cheap if you feel like experimenting.

[ArgentFix]

Just yesterday I shot 200 rounds of S&B 115 followed by 100 rounds of this Winchester 115gr "Service Grade" in my VP9. It absolutely felt far hotter than the S&B, to the point I was a little concerned. I have shot this ammo before from a different case in other guns but don't recall noticing a difference, much less a dramatic one. Is it possible some lots of this are +P/+P+ and some are not? I don't own a chrono unfortunately.

[Thy.Will.Be.Done]

This ammo looks suspiciously like the M1152 load. 115 grain, FMJ FP. Listed at 1300 fps. Comes in brown boxes.

37595

Pretty good groups out of my HK P30L. 1.375" in the x-ring at 20 yards.

So I ordered a couple boxes of this from Brownell's along with some MPro 7 Solvent when they had free shipping for all. I was excited to open the box of ammo and see what it looked like only to find the old switcharoo was pulled on me, looks like this loading is round nose only going forward. I confirmed this speaking with Brownell's Customer Service who verified this with Winchester directly.

39921

39920

[ArgentFix]

I was excited to open the box of ammo and see what it looked like only to find the old switcharoo was pulled on me, looks like this loading is round nose only going forward.

Am I seeing three different headstamps in that one box? Do they all have the same bullet? That is weird.

Edit: Also what is the year stamped on the ones with "WMA"? Hard to read in those pics.

[Thy.Will.Be.Done]

Am I seeing three different headstamps in that one box? Do they all have the same bullet? That is weird.

Edit: Also what is the year stamped on the ones with "WMA"? Hard to read in those pics.


Yes they have different headstamps... which I also found quite odd. A head scratcher for sure, but also made me think this really was ammo they are running off the same machinery as the military stuff. The WMA marked cases are dated 19', so it is current production as one would expect from a company as large as Brownell's and how much product they must move.

[LtDave]

Saw this:

https://www.military.com/daily-news/2019/09/30/winchester-now-selling-ammo-developed-armys-mhs-consumers.html

Brownell's has them in stock at $130/500. Listed muzzle velocity in the above article is 1320 fps.

[ArgentFix]

I had one dud primer in 2k rounds of Winchester #SG9W (https://pistol-forum.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=SG9W) . Definitely the primer, 2 hard strikes. Otherwise they shot fine. Just a data point.

Edit: In retrospect I liked the sharp wadcutter-like holes they put in paper.

[fatdog]

Saw this:

https://www.military.com/daily-news/2019/09/30/winchester-now-selling-ammo-developed-armys-mhs-consumers.html

Brownell's has them in stock at $130/500. Listed muzzle velocity in the above article is 1320 fps.

The stuff cited in that military.com article and labeled as M1152 "active duty" in 150 round boxes showed up at our local Academy Sports stores this week, something like $34 for the box of 150, just curious if anybody has shot any of this stuff as sold in that packaging and what your observations were. I picked up a box but it may be a few weeks before I can get out to the range and chrono and see how it groups.

thanks

[LtDave]

Tried some of the M1152 I got from Brownell’s in 2 different VP9’s. Shot 1.5” and 2.125” groups at 20 yards off the bench. Didn’t chrono, but they were pretty sporty.

[revchuck38]

The stuff cited in that military.com article and labeled as M1152 "active duty" in 150 round boxes showed up at our local Academy Sports stores this week, something like $34 for the box of 150, just curious if anybody has shot any of this stuff as sold in that packaging and what your observations were. I picked up a box but it may be a few weeks before I can get out to the range and chrono and see how it groups.

thanks


Tried some of the M1152 I got from Brownell’s in 2 different VP9’s. Shot 1.5” and 2.125” groups at 20 yards off the bench. Didn’t chrono, but they were pretty sporty.

Well, great minds think alike. :) I got a box in from Brownell's yesterday and made it to the range today with my chronograph. Five rounds from my PX4 (4" barrel) averaged 1235 fps with an SD of 7. So it's feistier than the "pretend" version by 60 fps in my gun, about where 115 +P would be (I've never chronoed any, just my guess). POI is the same as 124s for me.

Somebody, maybe SGA, has Independence bulk 115 +P FMJ for $180/k shipped. I don't see this as cost-effective training ammo at the current price. IMO Winchester's 124-grain NATO-spec FMJ is a better choice. This might be a good choice for defensive ammo in NJ where expanding ammo is verboten.

[ArgentFix]

I had one dud primer in 2k rounds of Winchester #SG9W (https://pistol-forum.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=SG9W) . Definitely the primer, 2 hard strikes. Otherwise they shot fine. Just a data point.

Just shot the last of my Winchester SG9W flat point through a brand new P365 and had one light strike which fired on the second attempt. Maybe it's different from the current M1152 packaging, maybe it was the gun, maybe inconsistent primers... who knows. Again, just another data point. 2 FTFire total in 3k rounds of SG9W through various guns.

[revchuck38]

Well, great minds think alike. :) I got a box in from Brownell's yesterday and made it to the range today with my chronograph. Five rounds from my PX4 (4" barrel) averaged 1235 fps with an SD of 7. So it's feistier than the "pretend" version by 60 fps in my gun, about where 115 +P would be (I've never chronoed any, just my guess). POI is the same as 124s for me.

Somebody, maybe SGA, has Independence bulk 115 +P FMJ for $180/k shipped. I don't see this as cost-effective training ammo at the current price. IMO Winchester's 124-grain NATO-spec FMJ is a better choice. This might be a good choice for defensive ammo in NJ where expanding ammo is verboten.

I was right, SGA has the Independence 115-grain +P FMJ here (https://www.sgammo.com/product/cci-ammo-sale/1000-round-case-9mm-luger-p-115-grain-fmj-loose-pack-independence-ammo-cci-525). It's $186/k shipped.