American Rifleman M17 Article Explains Some of the Process

[Tokarev]

This is the first article I've seen that helps explain the path from the M9 to the M17. There has been much speculation and flat out guesses stated as fact so far regarding the SIG.

https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2019/4/23/in-the-company-of-soldiers-the-us-m17-m18-modular-handgun-systems/

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[JonInWA]

Typical American Rifleman puff-piece; a good superficial once-over that might as well have been written by the SIG-Sauer marketing department. It fails to completely describe the testing and evaluation process (or the incompleteness of it), it fails to discuss if SIG knew in advance of the drop-safety issue, attributing the M17 trigger changes to allow for a more beneficial trigger pull characteristic as opposed to correcting a safety issue).

It would have been insightful to know how and why the SIG products were selected, and how the SIG products compared to the competitors-and how all the competitors actually performed in the specific tests, which isn't touched in the article at all.

It does provide some insights, but is hardly a definitive or in-depth article on the M17/M18 evaluation and selection process, and is very dismissive of the significance of post-adoption changes that SIG has made regarding issues that have cropped up subsequent to fielding.

Best, Jon

[willie]

When handguns are issued, there is small chance that the person receiving the weapon will have opportunity to swap grip components. If I'm wrong, will somebody please correct me? But I suspect we'll discover more after these weapons have lived in armories and been issued to different folks. Right now for career military persons, criticizing the Sig choice would harm careers. I do hope it does well.

Will all these handguns be made in the same factory and will anyone speculate how large the work crew must be to make the required number of weapons?

[HCM]

When handguns are issued, there is small chance that the person receiving the weapon will have opportunity to swap grip components. If I'm wrong, will somebody please correct me? But I suspect we'll discover more after these weapons have lived in armories and been issued to different folks. Right now for career military persons, criticizing the Sig choice would harm careers. I do hope it does well.

Will all these handguns be made in the same factory and will anyone speculate how large the work crew must be to make the required number of weapons?

50/50 chance. The guns will come with extra grip frames. These will likely be kept in the arms room and swapped out as needed. Some units will swap them out and some won’t.

[JonInWA]

The odds and willingness of unit armorer's to do so will probably significantly depend upon the paperwork log trail required, and the proximity to the unit's IG inspection...Best, Jon

[feudist]

Well, that was shameless.

[JRB]

50/50 chance. The guns will come with extra grip frames. These will likely be kept in the arms room and swapped out as needed. Some units will swap them out and some won’t.

(more bitching about the Army)
I strongly doubt it'll be anywhere near 50/50. Two months ago I had it out with my Bn PBO Chief because he blocked our request for 6 M4 style buttstock retrofit kits. I wanted 6 of them because we have Soldiers that are under 5ft 6in and issued a full size M16 that are expected to shoot well with irons while wearing an IOTV. The A2 stock is a mile long for those folks and it's miserable. I played the reasonable accommodation angle, and it's also a damn easy swap. Hell I offered to do it myself as I've got all the tools and a local-ish 91F buddy that can sign off on the results.
No, this CW3 just pushed back and first said it's not on the AAL (Authorized Accessories List) and I proved otherwise right down to the NSN with the damn -10 manual he had in his office. Then it was more flapping and bullshit from there but nope, we're not getting them.

I have full faith that grip swaps will be similarly troubled by these same bureaucrats. The ones that spend their entire existence trying to do as little as possible and making every possible excuse to justify it.
(/end bitching about the Army)

[Dave J]

Since the pistols are supposed to ship with extra frames and it's an easy swap, I'm fairly optimistic that users will have the opportunity to get the size they want. Especially in the line units, where the basis of issue is team leader and up, I wouldn't expect too many armorers to ignore an officer or NCO who asks for a specific size. That doesn't necessarily mean that users will know or care which size works best, so I expect there will still be plenty of poorly fitting pistols. But I'm willing to bet that those who know what they want will get it more often than not.

If units had to spend money to order the extra frames through the supply chain, I'd be less optimistic.

[JSGlock34]

"Then there was the Sharknado-like blogosphere P320 feeding frenzy in August 2017—one that had nothing to do with the XM17—regarding a very specific and rare “negative-30-degree drop” impact that could allow some P320 pistols to fire. SIG Sauer did extensive testing, got out in front of it and announced a “Voluntary Upgrade Program” on the commercial side."

:confused:

[Bucky]

"Then there was the Sharknado-like blogosphere P320 feeding frenzy in August 2017—one that had nothing to do with the XM17—regarding a very specific and rare “negative-30-degree drop” impact that could allow some P320 pistols to fire. SIG Sauer did extensive testing, got out in front of it and announced a “Voluntary Upgrade Program” on the commercial side."

:confused:

Of course they did.

[rcbusmc24]

Well... That didn't change my mind any, I still don't want anything to do with the M17 or the Sig P320.... Luckily, Not a single one has hit 2D MAR DIV yet and I don't expect them to for a hot minute. Hopefully I can ride my Beretta train to retirement.

[HCM]

(more bitching about the Army)
I strongly doubt it'll be anywhere near 50/50. Two months ago I had it out with my Bn PBO Chief because he blocked our request for 6 M4 style buttstock retrofit kits. I wanted 6 of them because we have Soldiers that are under 5ft 6in and issued a full size M16 that are expected to shoot well with irons while wearing an IOTV. The A2 stock is a mile long for those folks and it's miserable. I played the reasonable accommodation angle, and it's also a damn easy swap. Hell I offered to do it myself as I've got all the tools and a local-ish 91F buddy that can sign off on the results.
No, this CW3 just pushed back and first said it's not on the AAL (Authorized Accessories List) and I proved otherwise right down to the NSN with the damn -10 manual he had in his office. Then it was more flapping and bullshit from there but nope, we're not getting them.

I have full faith that grip swaps will be similarly troubled by these same bureaucrats. The ones that spend their entire existence trying to do as little as possible and making every possible excuse to justify it.
(/end bitching about the Army)

So at least some S and L grips are supposed to come with the guns so that saves a step and swapping grips does not require a tool or have a torque value both of which, as I understand, it kick things to be done by a higher level shop.

[Bill]

I have no love lost for Sig these days, mostly for their seemingly allergic reaction to any level of reasonable transparency or ownership of problems. I am also, however, giving the p320 (a civilian M17 in fact) another (fourth) chance to see how the most recently manufactured guns are working. I actually quite like the shooting characteristics of the M17. Time will tell if it performs well in the long-ish haul.

All that being laid out as preamble. . . That "article" is complete garbage. Pure editorial nonsense with only whiffs of journalism.

If only Sig changed their PR strategy, they would regain the respect of the customer base in mere months. The P320 is probably "just fine" at this point, the P365 is selling like hotcakes (again, after a significant bobble. . . that was poorly acknowledged), The MCX and MPX are interesting platforms. If Sig's stance were simply; "We are committed to living on the bleeding edge of innovation and design. Sometimes new designs have problems. We will always acknowledge them, and do right by the customer, no questions asked.

I just don't get it. Good PR doesn't cost any more than bad PR. Why not do the right thing?

[LSP552]

I’ve been an NRA member for about as long as I can remember. It’s been about that long since any of their technical articles were with a spit,

[Eric_L]

"Then there was the Sharknado-like blogosphere P320 feeding frenzy in August 2017—one that had nothing to do with the XM17—regarding a very specific and rare “negative-30-degree drop” impact that could allow some P320 pistols to fire. SIG Sauer did extensive testing, got out in front of it and announced a “Voluntary Upgrade Program” on the commercial side."

:confused:


Some may remember that the same author, right as the drop safety problem was becoming publicized here and elsewhere, was DISMISSIVE of the concern at that time. But, Sig advertises in the American Rifleman, so........

[ViniVidivici]

I found far more interest in the linked article below that one, about the M1152 &M1153 9mm ammo being issued.

[Mjolnir]

I found far more interest in the linked article below that one, about the M1152 &M1153 9mm ammo being issued.

Same.


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[gato naranja]

I’ve been an NRA member for about as long as I can remember. It’s been about that long since any of their technical articles were with a spit,

It ain't just technical articles, either. Writing in general has declined in quality. I remember how much I loved reading stuff by guys like Ed Harris, John T. Amber, Phil Sharpe, etc. I used to actually look forward to the next issues of American Rifleman, Shooting Times, the annual Gun Digest...

When I was still doing ES, after reading something current about bushcraft or survival I would sometimes dig out my copy of Kephart's "Camping and Woodcraft" just so I could enjoy a reading experience for a change.

As for the M17 article, it fails to do much informing or entertaining. I can respect a SIG but I eventually gave up on thinking I will ever actually like one, so I am one of the people who are on the outside of that particular tent.

gn

[Thy.Will.Be.Done]

I found far more interest in the linked article below that one, about the M1152 &M1153 9mm ammo being issued.

Thank you for sharing this, I didn't want to read the puff piece but I did read the ammo article which was great to learn about. I am interested in getting some of those 115 FMJ-FP. Sounds like a great general purpose round that could pull multiple duties if needed.

[stomridertx]

I know what I'm about to say irritates lovers of the P320 to no end, and they also say it doesn't matter...
The Sig P320 lost me at the bore axis. Yes, it does matter. I'm not willing to sacrifice bore axis height for modularity I won't use. I feel the same way about "modular" holsters. I want to pick it up and rock on with my day, not swap things out or unscrew and reattach.

[MK11]

Well... That didn't change my mind any, I still don't want anything to do with the M9 or the Beretta 92.... Luckily, Not a single one has hit 2D MAR DIV yet and I don't expect them to for a hot minute. Hopefully I can ride my 1911 train to retirement.

Flashing back to the 80s......

[GardoneVT]

SIG Sauer did extensive testing, got out in front of it and announced a “Voluntary Upgrade Program” on the commercial side.

That’s...not even materially accurate.

Insofar as the M17 goes, its another sign (along with other projects like the F-35) of what former President Eisenhower was so concerned about during his final speech. The military is simply one part of a three piece business cycle tying Congress, private industry (in this case Sig Sauer), and the DoD together. Congressmen like employed constituents, so money must move to defense industries whether there’s a need to or not.

Ballistics, threat range, ergonomics...all smoke and mirrors. Here’s the real purpose behind the M17s adoption;

Beretta USA- Approximately 600 employees
Sig Sauer US - About 1,200 employees

[rcbusmc24]

Flashing back to the 80s......

It worked out for them then too. Some units had did not get their Berettas until the early 1990's....

[BigD]

50/50 chance. The guns will come with extra grip frames. These will likely be kept in the arms room and swapped out as needed. Some units will swap them out and some won’t.

This is optimistic. Don't know if you have any idea how many left handed soldiers have had to use a right handed sling mount because no one (an armorer, presumably) can be bothered to punch out a roll pin. But it's a lot.

I don't see the armorers being eager to switch out frames for folks that qual a couple times a year (if that often) on the sidearm. Best option would be to measure hands and assign them a size that corresponds to the measurement and be done with it. If you ask Joe what size frame he wants, it will be the one that's not on the pistol he's currently holding.

[HCM]

This is optimistic. Don't know if you have any idea how many left handed soldiers have had to use a right handed sling mount because no one (an armorer, presumably) can be bothered to punch out a roll pin. But it's a lot.

I don't see the armorers being eager to switch out frames for folks that qual a couple times a year (if that often) on the sidearm. Best option would be to measure hands and assign them a size that corresponds to the measurement and be done with it. If you ask Joe what size frame he wants, it will be the one that's not on the pistol he's currently holding.

That (measuring) is how we are doing it for our P320 roll out.

[DocGKR]

That article completely glosses over the MHS debacle and the failure to properly procure and test--very disappointing....

[JonInWA]

That article completely glosses over the MHS debacle and the failure to properly procure and test--very disappointing....

That's an understatement, Gary.

Best, Jon

[Sigfan26]

That article completely glosses over the MHS debacle and the failure to properly procure and test--very disappointing....

Just gotta follow the advertisers...


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[Tokarev]

Just gotta follow the advertisers...


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkWhat does SIG advertising or a relationship with the NRA have to do with the Army picking the SIG?

Besides, nearly all members of the industry have some relationship with the NRA. And rightfully so, no?

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[Sigfan26]

That article completely glosses over the MHS debacle and the failure to properly procure and test--very disappointing....


What does SIG advertising or a relationship with the NRA have to do with the Army picking the SIG?

Besides, nearly all members of the industry have some relationship with the NRA. And rightfully so, no?

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My response was directly to Doc’s quote citing strong glossing over of glaring initial issues.


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[Suvorov]

This is optimistic. Don't know if you have any idea how many left handed soldiers have had to use a right handed sling mount because no one (an armorer, presumably) can be bothered to punch out a roll pin. But it's a lot.

I don't see the armorers being eager to switch out frames for folks that qual a couple times a year (if that often) on the sidearm. Best option would be to measure hands and assign them a size that corresponds to the measurement and be done with it. If you ask Joe what size frame he wants, it will be the one that's not on the pistol he's currently holding.

That is EXACTLY how it will pan out in all but the most squared away units! And I’m willing to bet anything that frame availability will be terrible due to logistics issues or simply the things being stashed away somewhere by a supply puke who doesn’t give a poop.

[okie john]

Especially in the line units, where the basis of issue is team leader and up, I wouldn't expect too many armorers to ignore an officer or NCO who asks for a specific size.

I laughed out loud when I read this.

It just takes one uninformed guy (usually a Major) to leave those grip modules gathering dust in a Conex out on the back 40 instead of on the guns where they belong. The chain of ignorance beats the chain of command every time.


Okie John

[Dave J]

I laughed out loud when I read this.

It just takes one uninformed guy (usually a Major) to leave those grip modules gathering dust in a Conex out on the back 40 instead of on the guns where they belong. The chain of ignorance beats the chain of command every time.


Okie John

My experience was that the small stuff fielded with the weapon always ends up somewhere in the arms room. They may not know where it is, what it’s for, or even that they have it on hand, but if you dig deep enough it’ll turn up.

[okie john]

My experience was that the small stuff fielded with the weapon always ends up somewhere in the arms room. They may not know where it is, what it’s for, or even that they have it on hand, but if you dig deep enough it’ll turn up.

Yeah, I'd go along with that. Whether you'd ever be allowed to use it is another story, and the Homeric amount of bullshit required to get it out of the arms room and into the hands of the people who need it is a third story still.


Okie John

[Wondering Beard]

The chain of ignorance beats the chain of command every time.
Okie John

Now that's a signature line!

[okie john]

Now that's a signature line!

Help yourself.


Okie John

[Wondering Beard]

Help yourself.

Okie John

Thank you, but not for me, as I have never served.

[CWM11B]

Articles such as these are why my AR goes straight from the mailbox to the recycle bin.

[arcfide]

I had high hopes that the article would at the very least provide a cohesive narrative for the process and the like, but unfortunately, it reads more like a first year college student's writing project than real journalism. It replaces honest objectivity with pointless rhetoric designed to make the author feel "even handed," but only comes across as mildly sycophantic.

Fortunately, for someone who has never dug into the MHS project, it does provide some "timeline points" that can be used to do further research, which is something. But there isn't any new information that hasn't been readily available elsewhere for quite some time.

I was also quite amazed at how short the article was. Doesn't anyone write a reasonable article with enough detail to actually tell you something, or is it all picture books these days? All that being said, I still read the article and, for what it was, enjoyed it.

[okie john]

Thank you, but not for me, as I have never served.

The chain of command is universal. So is the chain of ignorance.


Okie John

[DocGKR]

"The chain of command is universal. So is the chain of ignorance."

Oh yeah....pure gold in that comment.

[Zincwarrior]

I had high hopes that the article would at the very least provide a cohesive narrative for the process and the like, but unfortunately, it reads more like a first year college student's writing project than real journalism. It replaces honest objectivity with pointless rhetoric designed to make the author feel "even handed," but only comes across as mildly sycophantic.

Fortunately, for someone who has never dug into the MHS project, it does provide some "timeline points" that can be used to do further research, which is something. But there isn't any new information that hasn't been readily available elsewhere for quite some time.

I was also quite amazed at how short the article was. Doesn't anyone write a reasonable article with enough detail to actually tell you something, or is it all picture books these days? All that being said, I still read the article and, for what it was, enjoyed it.

Its an advertisement. They are meant to be sure and spiffy.

[BigD]

Yeah, I'd go along with that. Whether you'd ever be allowed to use it is another story, and the Homeric amount of bullshit required to get it out of the arms room and into the hands of the people who need it is a third story still.


Okie John

I feel you. I really do. But the good thing in this case is, unless you are a female or a male with little girl hands and need the small size, the frame size isn’t going to matter.

I’m of the opinion that the interchangeable backstrap (and now frame size) is a marketing gimmick (unless your hand is so small you can’t get much finger on the trigger due to small hands.) It doesn’t matter much.

And we arent talking about USPSA GMs trying to wring every bit of performance from their blaster. The M17 is mostly for folks that are going to qual quarterly and semi-annually and that’s it.