Shot my best offhand group ever at the range today, and it was with a...

[DonovanM]

You guessed it. A rental too, which is like having the best sex of your life with a hooker :(

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v119/vehementi/IMG_0122.jpg

So I left with one! Didn't get to shoot it yet. She's virginal, but in a sort of geeky, aloof way...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v119/vehementi/IMG_0118.jpg

I also met forum member vecdran who also happened to have just bought a G34 Gen 4, and was kind enough to let me put a mag through it before my purchase. Thanks again Jeremy :D

Tonight, many SIGs will weep :(

[JHC]

Gen 4's are tight man. But it takes and indian to hold that close. Great shooting.

[Al T.]

Tuchanka

There are two folks there with internet connections? :eek:

BTW, 2.5 inches with a Glock is not the gun, it's the good shot holding it. ;)

[mongooseman]

Great gun, great shooting!

[guymontag]

Congrats! I'm envious. ;)

[Robert Mitchum]

Good shooting !!!!!

[Failure2Stop]

I have been consistently suprised at the triggers in the Gen4 G17s.
I shot a super nice group from my buddy's G17 at 25 (with stock sights :puke: ), which made me shake my head, stare at the gun, and buy one.
I am hoping that the Gen4 issues have been mitigated in mine (it's fairly new).

[DonovanM]

I have been consistently suprised at the triggers in the Gen4 G17s.
I shot a super nice group from my buddy's G17 at 25 (with stock sights :puke: ), which made me shake my head, stare at the gun, and buy one.
I am hoping that the Gen4 issues have been mitigated in mine (it's fairly new).

Haha. We had the exact same experience. I don't mind the trigger one bit and won't be touching a thing about it. It's already got the - connector, but even if it didn't I still wouldn't care.

I am however planning a few mods -
- Normal slide release (boring)
- Sevigny sights (boring)
- Steel guide rod and normal (boring) recoil springs, just to try and compare, I think the dual spring is superfluous
- Pearce buttplug

Can't imagine I'll need anything else!

[Long tom coffin]

There are two folks there with internet connections? :eek:

It's a location from a video game. Specifically the Mass Effect series. Homeworld of the Krogan.





BTW, 2.5 inches with a Glock is not the gun, it's the good shot holding it. ;)

Agreed. As JHC said, the indian, not the arrow.

[LittleLebowski]

There are two folks there with internet connections? :eek:

BTW, 2.5 inches with a Glock is not the gun, it's the good shot holding it. ;)

I believe Todd has mentioned that he feels that the Gen4s are more accurate due to better lockup.

[Mr_White]

The best field shots I have ever made were with a Gen4 G17. Given the widely held (?) belief that Gen4s are more accurate due to tighter lockup, I wonder whether I'd have made those same shots with a Gen3, though in recent benchrest and offhand slow fire range shooting at 25 yards, I currently do better with the Gen3. I should go out and try to duplicate those field shots with a Gen3 if I get the chance...

Awesome shooting Donovan. I am consistently impressed by your shooting, especially when I watch your USPSA match videos. Thanks for posting those.

[JHC]

I'm toying with the idea of getting a Gen 4 G34 to leverage the lockup accuracy thing (which I'm absolutely convinced is valid - see avatar) along with the longer sight radius. The Gen 4 G35 I shot (borrowed) Sun really surprised me: http://www.flickr.com/photos/78036189@N07/6852252226/ The trigger felt quite good to me. Anyway, after wringing out what I can from the OEM barrel - sending it off for a fitted BarSto. Randy Lee has written about how he used to build competitors G24's into 1" guns and I have a thing for stupid levels of precision. For pure fun factor really.

[DonovanM]

The best field shots I have ever made were with a Gen4 G17. Given the widely held (?) belief that Gen4s are more accurate due to tighter lockup, I wonder whether I'd have made those same shots with a Gen3, though in recent benchrest and offhand slow fire range shooting at 25 yards, I currently do better with the Gen3. I should go out and try to duplicate those field shots with a Gen3 if I get the chance...

Awesome shooting Donovan. I am consistently impressed by your shooting, especially when I watch your USPSA match videos. Thanks for posting those.

Thanks! Although I should mention, at the same range visit I shot the FAST for the first time. It did not go well. First run was a 9 something where I released the slide too early and didn't chamber a round. 2nd run was a 4.23 but I missed on the 3x5 - so you definitely got me there :D


Randy Lee has written about how he used to build competitors G24's into 1" guns and I have a thing for stupid levels of precision. For pure fun factor really.

Unga bunga. Me too, and nice shooting with the 35!

[Mr_White]

Thanks! Although I should mention, at the same range visit I shot the FAST for the first time. It did not go well. First run was a 9 something where I released the slide too early and didn't chamber a round. 2nd run was a 4.23 but I missed on the 3x5 - so you definitely got me there :D

Hey, I know all about range sessions where I do one thing really well and some other things really poorly...

Did you run the FAST from concealment or your Production rig or something else?

[DonovanM]

Hey, I know all about range sessions where I do one thing really well and some other things really poorly...

Did you run the FAST from concealment or your Production rig or something else?

It was a legit run with my appendix rig under concealment. I used my Production gun though.

[JHC]

It was a legit run with my appendix rig under concealment. I used my Production gun though.

4.23 from concealment is SMOKIN' fast! What Production gun would that be? I'm planning to try a FAST or two with a G26 from a Smart Carry and a reload in the back pocket this weekend. I've shot a lot of them concealed but never from deep concealment. Should be interesting.

[DonovanM]

4.23 from concealment is SMOKIN' fast! What Production gun would that be? I'm planning to try a FAST or two with a G26 from a Smart Carry and a reload in the back pocket this weekend. I've shot a lot of them concealed but never from deep concealment. Should be interesting.

I run a 9mm SIG P226ST, and carry a P226R in 357 SIG. There's a classifier match this weekend and I'm a hair's breadth from making Master, so I'm hoping against hope that I can squeeze out one good enough score that will bump me up as a nice send-off for my Production platform of the last 2.5 years. Then after this weekend once the rest of my Glock gear shows up I'll hit it hard in dry fire and come out swinging next month :D

[Mr_White]

It was a legit run with my appendix rig under concealment. I used my Production gun though.

Separate from the FAST, I'd like to ask you about your carry vs. competition setup.

It sounds like you shoot Production with a strong-side OWB, and carry AIWB, is that right?

How do you divide your practice between your carry and competition rigs? Any issues switching between the two?

What kind of time difference do you see on the draw to first shot time between the unconcealed strong-side OWB and concealed AIWB?

I'm curious because I am in the middle of indecision as to how useful it really is for me to shoot USPSA with my carry gear from concealment. I've only shot one match so far. I screwed myself with the concealment on a reload, but that wasn't the biggest problem with my performance (some missed shots were.) It's nice to run my carry rig under match conditions. But after having shot that match, I came away from it feeling that, although the draw is important, as everything is, the draw simply wasn't a large portion of the tasks performed in the match. And that made me want to shoot Production because that's where my essentially-stock G34 belongs, and I wouldn't be shooting minor caliber in Limited. When I have a number attached to my performance, I can't help but want to do better.

Just kind of curious about your opinion on that...

[JHC]

I would have guessed that a Sig P226 using single action would be hard to beat offhand at 25 yards. Interesting.

[DonovanM]

Separate from the FAST, I'd like to ask you about your carry vs. competition setup.

It sounds like you shoot Production with a strong-side OWB, and carry AIWB, is that right?

How do you divide your practice between your carry and competition rigs? Any issues switching between the two?

What kind of time difference do you see on the draw to first shot time between the unconcealed strong-side OWB and concealed AIWB?

I'm curious because I am in the middle of indecision as to how useful it really is for me to shoot USPSA with my carry gear from concealment. I've only shot one match so far. I screwed myself with the concealment on a reload, but that wasn't the biggest problem with my performance (some missed shots were.) It's nice to run my carry rig under match conditions. But after having shot that match, I came away from it feeling that, although the draw is important, as everything is, the draw simply wasn't a large portion of the tasks performed in the match. And that made me want to shoot Production because that's where my essentially-stock G34 belongs, and I wouldn't be shooting minor caliber in Limited. When I have a number attached to my performance, I can't help but want to do better.

Just kind of curious about your opinion on that...

Yeah that's right. I also have a light bearing holster for strong side carry that I use under varying circumstances. It'll get more action now that I have two carry guns and can leave the light on one :)

Training time is heavily biased for my competition rig... probably at a rate of 10:1, but USPSA is an end in itself for me, my goal is to be competitive on a national level at it and it is fun as hell. If I shot USPSA purely to complement my defensive skills, that ratio would be altogether different. But for my standards, everything is the same once the gun is out anyway, and my draws and reloads from concealment have reached a level of adequacy in terms of consistency and speed. By that I mean I certainly have no end of room for improvement, but I've met some kind of a point of diminishing returns and am mostly just interested in maintenance. My switching between training the two is sort of cyclic, most of the time I'm working my competition rig, but for a few days or a week at a time here and there I'll really drill my carry skills.

As a sidenote, the skills carry over between one another very well. I started carrying appendix about 9 months ago, and prior to that I had a year and a half under my belt of match experience and very frequent dry fire. It only took me a day to pick up the draw from the appendix. Call it a week to be dead-nuts consistent with the mechanics of it (this is relaxed at home mind you).

No issues at all switching between the two. When I have my concealment rig on, I have never had confusion going for my gun on my strong side or vice versa. Surprisingly enough, I haven't had any issues on the reload either. I carry my mags bullets-out in my Production rig and bullets-forward under concealment. That's where I thought training scars would show, but I'm consistent enough (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eK112Cjxcg). It doesn't hurt that I went a long time using my now-carry mag pouches (Comp-Tac) in USPSA.

The difference in times for me is the same with draws and reloads under concealment vs my Production rig. Concealment is .2 seconds slower... pretty much exactly.

I don't know what I'd do in your shoes. If you enjoy the challenges presented and the competition, then I'd say get a full blown Production rig and have at it. If not and it's just a good way for you to practice courses of fire not designed by you and under some amount of pressure, you might be better off sticking with what you have.

[Mr_White]

If you enjoy the challenges presented and the competition, then I'd say get a full blown Production rig and have at it. If not and it's just a good way for you to practice courses of fire not designed by you and under some amount of pressure, you might be better off sticking with what you have.

Thanks for your insightful reply Donovan.

I certainly enjoyed the one match I've gone to so far. Time demands prevent me from 'getting serious' about going far in competition for the time being - I am going to be lucky to make it to one local match per month, and that's being optimistic. The bolded part of your last sentence probably applies to me the most.

Maybe once I get my shooting and match performance clean and correct and I'm not making match or marksmanship errors I'll consider equipment and division again.

[GJM]

My wife and I shot about 250 rounds each of steel today. At the end of the session, I mentioned that a fantastic shooter posted a very small group on PF.

My wife had three rounds left, and we were at 15 yards. I told her to use the one inch square as an aiming point. Gen 3 G17, HD sights, - connector, Aguila 124 ball, three rounds:

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/CAM.jpg

[DonovanM]

Nice! She's got me beat!

[JHC]

NICE! :cool:

[JV_]

Great shooting, especially since that HD front sight was much larger than the 1" square.

[GJM]

JV, I told her nice one hole group, but that she missed the square.

[JV_]

JV, I told her nice one hole group, but that she missed the square.Next time, don't give her an "aiming point", give her a target to hit!

Too bad her front sight is .010" too tall.

[DonovanM]

JV, I told her nice one hole group, but that she missed the square.

If you'll notice, my group is way high above a bullseye... which is kind of what I was aiming for. I wasn't using the crappy stock sights correctly :o

[vecdran]

I also met forum member vecdran who also happened to have just bought a G34 Gen 4, and was kind enough to let me put a mag through it before my purchase. Thanks again Jeremy :D

Tonight, many SIGs will weep :(

In my camp, my HK family will be getting smaller. I'll be keeping my first P30, for nostalgia sake. I'll be carring a G17 eventually.

The reality is, at the round count I shoot (~20,000 a year) it makes far more sense for me to own a gun that is easily repairable by me in the field. Also, I was tired of how lame the HK accessories market is. Now, owning a Glock, there's more junk (and a fair bit of good stuff) than I know what to do with. :p

Let's put it this way. To get my trigger where I wanted it on my P30L took nearly nine months, if you include the eight months I waited for springs. Now, if I want to go any further, I have to blow $350+ on a Bruce Gray job, which, while fantastic, usually takes a while.

With my Glock, I waved two $20s, and 15 minutes later I had a new trigger. Don't like it? Hey, there's a dozen other trigger kits out there for the same price!

[DonovanM]

In my camp, my HK family will be getting smaller. I'll be keeping my first P30, for nostalgia sake. I'll be carring a G17 eventually.

The reality is, at the round count I shoot (~20,000 a year) it makes far more sense for me to own a gun that is easily repairable by me in the field. Also, I was tired of how lame the HK accessories market is. Now, owning a Glock, there's more junk (and a fair bit of good stuff) than I know what to do with. :p

Let's put it this way. To get my trigger where I wanted it on my P30L took nearly nine months, if you include the eight months I waited for springs. Now, if I want to go any further, I have to blow $350+ on a Bruce Gray job, which, while fantastic, usually takes a while.

With my Glock, I waved two $20s, and 15 minutes later I had a new trigger. Don't like it? Hey, there's a dozen other trigger kits out there for the same price!

It was the slide release on my SIGs that finally did it for me. I had a choice of a) not have a high grip, b) have a slide that never locks back, c) have a slide that locks back prematurely or d) run an illegally modified (for Production division) gun :(

I could deal with the 10lb trigger and the high bore axis which everyone says would make me shoot slower - which it never did - but not having workable controls killed it for me.

The slide release on the Glock could stand to be another 1/8" forward - FOR ME, which is just fine considering it's a mass produced item - but other than that I think it's in about as good a position as it can be. I also love the grip angle! WTF!

[JV_]

It was the slide release on my SIGs that finally did it for me. I had a choice of a) not have a high grip, b) have a slide that never locks back, c) have a slide that locks back prematurely or d) run an illegally modified (for Production division) gun :(


Running an X5 slide release isn't production legal?

[DonovanM]

Running an X5 slide release isn't production legal?

It is an OEM part but I don't think it's included as stock on any models that are approved for Production. And, in order for it to work properly, I'd either have to run E2 grips (don't wanna, if anything I want bigger grips) or remove material from my grip panels (illegal). And I don't think it would help all that much anyway, it's still not far enough away from the back of the gun. The slide release on the Glock is as far forward as the decocking lever is on the SIG, which would be a great place for it.

[JV_]

And I don't think it would help all that much anyway, it's still not far enough away from the back of the gun. I don't have large hands, but the E2 grips without the X5 slide release meant I almost always rode the release, now I never have that issue. I was 50/50 with the regular panels.

I've seen mixed feedback as to whether the X5 All Around has that slide release. Some say that theirs shipped with it, but most pictures from Sig differ. That is production legal.

[DonovanM]

I don't have large hands, but the E2 grips without the X5 slide release meant I almost always rode the release, now I never have that issue. I was 50/50 with the regular panels.

I've seen mixed feedback as to whether the X5 All Around has that slide release. Some say that theirs shipped with it, but most pictures from Sig differ. That is production legal.

On second thought, are you talking about the one that sticks out 90* from the slide, or the one that sits further forward?

http://cdn.topgunsupply.com/images/D/IMGP2978.JPG

The one that sticks out 90* is definitely legal, it's included on P226 Sport Stock, which is an approved gun. The one that sits farther forward is the one that I don't think is legal, because it's only included on SAO X-5's AFAIK.

[JV_]

I was referring to the one in your picture.

[DonovanM]

Ah, yeah I thought about trying one but didn't think it would be legal. Maybe I'll give one a shot on my now-carry guns :)

[GJM]

When we finished our practice session this afternoon, I asked my wife to show me five shots from 15 yards to the one inch square, not above it. Here is her effort, again G17, Aguila 124 ball, HD sights, off hand, and 20 knots of wind to make it more interesting:

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/CAM2.jpg

[DonovanM]

Where are your groups, GJM? I take it she wears the pants ;)

Man, p-f.com needs a "post your group" thread.

[JBP55]

Your wife shoots great.

[JHC]

Your wife shoots great.

+100

[GJM]

Where are your groups, GJM? I take it she wears the pants ;)

Man, p-f.com needs a "post your group" thread.

I figured out a long time ago, that when my wife flies well and shoots well, all is good for me.

Kidding aside, I think I have tendinitis in my right elbow, anyone have a solution for that? I did shoot a five shot touching group, inside a two inch dot, at seven yards support hand only, because it is less painful than shooting freestyle. I think the DA Smith revolver is helping, because all of the sudden my Gen 4 Glock trigger feels "good."

[DonovanM]

Shot 30 rounds rapid fire through it today. At 50 feet shooting as fast as I could call shots (.18-.20 splits) probably 27/30 of them were in the A-zone :D A lot of horizontal dispersion though so I'll play around with some different recoil springs and get used to the timing of it.

Slide didn't lock back either time though. Gotta get my weak hand further rearward on the gun. Argh.

Yup, I'm liking it. The rest of my rig should be here tomorrow. Ready Tactical holster, Sevigny sights, etc.

[JeffJ]

You may want to try a standard slide stop - fixed the ftlb issue for me

[DonovanM]

You may want to try a standard slide stop - fixed the ftlb issue for me

Installed one yesterday :(

I have big fat meat paws though... everyone said I made my 226 look like a 229 my hands were so goddamn huge.

[JeffJ]

Well, you shouldn't be shooting to slide lock anyway :cool: