View Full Version : A Case Study in the Outsourcing of U.S. Border Control
US cooperation with Panama on migration enforcement. The focus is the Darien Gap in southeastern Panama which is still the most difficult stretch in making a land transit from South America. Similar cooperation with Mexico at their southern border could be very effective in stemming the current onslaught from Central America,
https://www.lawfareblog.com/case-study-outsourcing-us-border-control?fbclid=IwAR0YsJZxVhsy0p0nOsfxRjjRgDVmxKlYk cqCohZk8OqPqq5Pm7q1X855Dyk
A Case Study in the Outsourcing of U.S. Border Control
Over the past year, the Trump administration has put forth an array of measures to deter immigration to the United States, including separating families, enacting a zero-tolerance stance toward irregular crossings, and—most recently—requiring asylum seekers to remain in Mexico while awaiting their asylum claim decisions. Despite these efforts, in February 2019, apprehension numbers from the United States’s southern border hit their highest levels in 10 years. The administration’s ongoing frustration with the ineffectiveness of its domestic migration policies has pushed its focus southward, with President Trump slashing foreign aid for El Salvador, Guatemala and Honduras after accusing the governments of all three countries—and Mexico—of not doing enough to stem migration.
But even further south, the U.S. has another, quieter partner in migration enforcement. Out of the public eye and ire, Panama has ramped up its cooperation with the U.S., detaining migrants headed north and sharing information with U.S. officials. This collaboration specifically targets a small portion of migrants, originating in countries outside of the Western Hemisphere but en route to the U.S. To successfully work with the United States, Panamanian law enforcement officers are trained by their U.S. counterparts, all while receiving new monitoring equipment and technology.
Yet these challenges don’t deter everyone. Each year, tens of thousands of migrants en route to the U.S. attempt to cross the Darien Gap. Estimates on the number of annual transit migrants in Panama range from 20,000 (consistent with public Panamanian apprehension figures) to 34,000 (based on Colombian apprehension figures). These figures are small compared to Venezuelan refugee outflows across South America—where an estimated 3.4 million Venezuelans have fled their country since 2014. But unlike other mass migrations in Latin America, the majority of migrants currently moving through Panama originate in countries outside the Western Hemisphere, such as Eritrea, Nepal, Bangladesh, India, Pakistan and Cameroon. These extracontinental migrants are attempting to arrive in the U.S. for a variety of reasons similar to Latin American migrants, including to reunify with family, to seek asylum or to search for economic opportunities.
Both regional immigration policies and geographic constraints contribute to this particular migration flow. First, extracontinental migrants often enter the Americas through Brazil or Ecuador, which have laxer visa laws. This migrant population then continues north, typically with an intended destination of the U.S. or Canada. Second, the crossing point between Colombia and Panama is almost impossible, meaning that only migrants without other migration options attempt the journey. The extracontinental population—together with migrants from Cuba and Haiti—tend to be the migrants with such limited options to enter the U.S., again given the United States’s strict visa regulations.
Extracontinental migrants represent only a small portion of the individuals arriving to the U.S. In fiscal 2018, only 3.2 percent of migrants apprehended along the U.S.-Mexico southern border originated from the African and Asian continents, barely denting overall U.S. apprehension figures. However, that figure is up from only 2 percent in fiscal 2017 as this population continues to increase every year. The United States’s real interest in this population lies in the security and political challenges posed by extracontinental migrants’ countries of origin. In fact, since at least 2011 the Department of Homeland Security has used a different lexicon for this population, opting instead to use the term “special interest alien” when referring to migrants originating in countries that “promote, produce, or protect terrorist organizations or their members.” Despite these heightened concerns, however, there is no evidence that extracontinental migrants pose any greater threat to U.S. national security.
So while the remote jungle of the Darien Gap may feel far away from the migration debates in Washington, Panama’s border patrol efforts are actually closely linked to U.S. policies. For years, the U.S. has supported Panama’s border enforcement efforts, often as an extension of the United States’s own security and border priorities.
In 2008, Panama announced a modification to its border and jungle security entities to address the irregular flows of people and goods. The government effectively combined several law enforcement agencies into one security entity—known commonly as SENAFRONT, or the Servicio Nacional de Fronteras—that would patrol Panama’s land borders and seas, interdict drugs and weapons trafficking, and counter guerilla violence overflows from Colombia. Increasingly, SENAFRONT’s mandate also includes apprehending and detaining migrants. Since the agency’s restructuring, officers have been posted in almost every community throughout the Darien, often being helicoptered in to their posts or enduring up to 13-hour canoe rides through the jungle’s river system.
U.S. law enforcement and military forces offer training to SENAFRONT officers, including international courses—often held in the United States—but also “marksmanship, basic patrolling, land navigation, communication, medical skills, and engineer tasks” to be conducted in Panama. The United States also increasingly provides funding and equipment. In fiscal 2016, the United States provided Panamanian security forces—including SENAFRONT—with more than US$8 million in funds, an almost 800 percent increase from fiscal 2014 as the countries’ migration and security cooperation increased. These funds went toward radios, boats for maritime patrol, night-vision goggles and dive gear. Most were allocated to security forces operating in the Darien Gap.
In exchange, Panama apprehends migrants and exchanges information on the transit migration population through the United States’s biometric registration system, known as BITMAP. According to the United States’s 2018 Biometric Identification Transnational Migration Alert Program Authorization Act, the BITMAP system was “established to equip international partner-country law enforcement officers to collect and share biometric and biographic data on special interest individuals and to identify potential threat actors transiting through participating countries.” Panama is one of these participating countries—and by July 2017, Panama had already entered more than 20,000 registries into this system.
Overall, Panamanian officials apprehend the vast majority of extracontinental migrants while they travel through the Darien, given the jungle’s natural bottleneck effect. This means that Panamanian border security officials will run every apprehended migrant’s biographic information through international databases weeks, or even months, before migrants complete their transit to the U.S. southern border. They then share that information with U.S. law enforcement authorities. Such moves represent an almost invisible form of border security outsourcing, targeted primarily at the extracontinental migrant population.
GuanoLoco
04-12-2019, 07:35 AM
Why go to all that trouble when a wall would work just as well? /Sarc
ranger
04-12-2019, 08:47 AM
Why go to all that trouble when a wall would work just as well? /Sarc
Do you have locks on the doors to your house? Do you secure your guns in a safe. You have so much knowledge to share about "shooting" but your TDS overwhelms your valuable input to PF.
Do you have locks on the doors to your house? Do you secure your guns in a safe. You have so much knowledge to share about "shooting" but your TDS overwhelms your valuable input to PF.
Even a stopped clock is right twice a day. In this case, Defense in depth is 1,000 x > a wall.
Walls are effective in urban areas and in some other areas for channeling movement but all they do is make illegal crossers easier to catch. They are an obstacle not a barrier. A tactic not a strategy.
The idea of a wall as the ultimate solution to Border security is ridiculous. It is kabuki theater providing the appearance of border security. Do you want Border security or the appearance of border security?
If you want real border security there are several other things which would be better use of the same money.
- Actually enforcing the “remains in Mexico pending asylum” provisions of the 1996 Immigration Act was a good start
- More immigration judges and DHS Attorneys to address the 800,000 and growing case back log
-More detention space and mandatory GPS monitoring for those who can’t be detained pending proceedings.
-diplomatic and economic pressure on Mexico to engage in something similar to SENAFRONT and deport Other Than Mexican (OTM) migrants detained in Mexico instead of releasing them with 20 day transit visas and allowing them to pass through to the U.S. unhindered.
Though Mexicans no longer constitute the majority of illegal migrants the Mexican Government is shitting all over us by giving a wink and a nod to all the OTM migrants passing through Mexico. We are Mexico’s bigger trading partner - use that pressure point.
A better solution would have been to address some of the legal and logistical issues barring a major/ mass casualty event involving foreigners congress is unlikely to do so. The Democrats want new D voters and the Republicans want to make money off cheap labor.
GuanoLoco
04-12-2019, 10:27 AM
Exactly, HCM.
There is a simple solution (example: wall) to every complex problem.
Unfortunately, it doesn’t work.
Wake27
04-12-2019, 11:03 AM
The biggest thing I got from that article was that in 2016, we provided $8 mil to the PDF, largely for equipment (and maybe training) to enhance observation and biometric collection of migrants that account for about 2% of those apprehended along the border. That is a fantastic argument for how worthless some of the recent policies are. For HCM, or the other guys that may know from first-hand experience, what does the enrollment into BITMAP actually do?
The wall is just part of the solution to the problem. I honestly don't understand how people can say it won't do anything. Its far from a 100% solution, but it will have an effect. Its nice to have partner nations assisting us, but that is going to have a much higher cost:benefit ratio over the long term. The principle of having foreign countries do a significant part of securing our own border seems asinine to me. Do we really expect the Mexican government to be effective at anything? Wasn't that country largely taken over by the cartels many years ago?
The biggest thing I got from that article was that in 2016, we provided $8 mil to the PDF, largely for equipment (and maybe training) to enhance observation and biometric collection of migrants that account for about 2% of those apprehended along the border. That is a fantastic argument for how worthless some of the recent policies are. For HCM, or the other guys that may know from first-hand experience, what does the enrollment into BITMAP actually do?
The wall is just part of the solution to the problem. I honestly don't understand how people can say it won't do anything. Its far from a 100% solution, but it will have an effect. Its nice to have partner nations assisting us, but that is going to have a much higher cost:benefit ratio over the long term. The principle of having foreign countries do a significant part of securing our own border seems asinine to me. Do we really expect the Mexican government to be effective at anything? Wasn't that country largely taken over by the cartels many years ago?
The same benefit as any other any other early warning system. Having a preview of illegal migrants from outside the Western Hemisphere and time to positively identify them before they get to the border is quite useful in sorting the threats from the guys who just want to be cab drivers.
As for a wall, as I stated, it’s a tool that has uses but the Trump camp has sold the sound bite that building a wall will completely stop all illegal border traffic. This is a lie. It won’t stop anything, if I build a wall of HESCO barriers around my FOB in Afghanistan does that mean that is all I need to keep the enemy out ? No. The wall has to be watched and defended and used in conjunction with ISR, concertina, patrols etc, etc, etc, None of those things work by themselves. It’s one part of a system of defense in depth but if the Taliban can get to the wall, they can get over it or through it.
A wall can help you ID and catch people crossing but that still leaves the same problem we have now- what to do with those you catch ? Most of the current influx are not Mexicans and even if you returned the OTMs to Mexico they would just try again which is why it is specifically prohibited by our own immigration laws, even if Mexico allowed it.
This is a classic case of amateurs talk tactics and professionals talk logistics.
Re: Mexico, you are displaying an common misconception of Mexico. Mexico has a lot of poor people and a third world economic strata without much of a middle class but Mexico as a whole is not a poor country. They are usually 11th to 15th in GDP, usually placing somewhere around Australia GDP wise. The Mexican are very capable when the want to be. They merely need the proper motivation.
Wake27
04-12-2019, 12:19 PM
The same benefit as any other any other early warning system. Having a preview of illegal migrants from outside the Western Hemisphere and time to positively identify them before they get to the border is quite useful in sorting the threats from the guys who just want to be cab drivers.
Maybe my perception would change with first hand experience, but I just don't see how that accomplishes very much. If they're caught running across the border, how much history of biometric data is needed? Do the laws get more strict for multiple attempts at entry? And if they're already a known threat, why are they not detained and dealt with by whomever is enrolling them in the system? I assume there has to be more to it, but I'm unable to envision getting anything out of the system than where he/she was logged before, which doesn't seem that it would really help prevent anything.
As for a wall, as I stated, it’s a tool that has uses but the Trump camp has sold the sound bite that building a wall will completely stop all illegal border traffic. This is a lie. It won’t stop anything, if I build a wall of HESCO barriers around my FOB in Afghanistan does that mean that is all I need to keep the enemy out ? No. The wall has to be watched and defended and used in conjunction with ISR, concertina, patrols etc, etc, etc, None of those things work by themselves. It’s one part of a system of defense in depth but if the Taliban can get to the wall, they can get over it or through it.
I haven't heard anyone preach it as such. Then again, I don't really listen to that stuff, but unless he is paying for it by cutting other security measures, I don't really see the issue - much less a basis for the claim that it won't do anything. It will do something. As you said, its an obstacle. Obstacles disrupt and cannalize forces. If nothing else, a proper wall will force a significant majority of illegals that run across the border into a few choke points. The tighter those choke points are, the less additional resources are needed to control them. Its very hard to go over a proper wall and you can control how difficult or easy it is to go around it.
A wall can help you ID and catch people crossing but that still leaves the same problem we have now- what to do with those you catch ? Most of the current influx are not Mexicans and even if you returned the OTMs to Mexico they would just try again which is why it is specifically prohibited by our own immigration laws, even if Mexico allowed it.
Agreed that is a problem, in my mind possibly the biggest problem. I don't want this thread to devolve like the last one, so I'll refrain from saying much, but I still don't think any significant effect will be seen until there are more consequences for those who try to cross illegally. In a lot of cases, they have almost nothing to lose, so what is to stop them from trying? That's a hard question to answer, but is the root of the problem IMO.
This is a classic case of amateurs talk tactics and professionals talk logistics.
Re: Mexico, you are displaying an common misconception of Mexico. Mexico has a lot of poor people and a third world economic strata without much of a middle class but Mexico as a whole is not a poor country. They are usually 11th to 15th in GDP, usually placing somewhere around Australia GDP wise. The Mexican are very capable when the want to be. They merely need the proper motivation.
Regardless of GDP and the capability of the people, is the government really that effective? We'd be leveraging their support, that's it. I doubt they'll ever see it as their actual problem, so that solution is only as good as the effort they put into it. We've sanctioned countries before and seemingly rarely got anything out of it. Even if we did, how long will it take?
The more I think of it, the more it seems like the analogy of an extremity hemorrhage fits. Slow the massive blood loss first. The wall is a tourniquet to do that. Sure it wont stop all of the blood, and there are other issues that will come up and things to consider, but if we don't provide some type of immediate solution (half solution or not), nothing else will matter because it'll be too late. 170k people in two months. Most of us can't even conceive an amount of people that large.
GuanoLoco
04-12-2019, 12:58 PM
The biggest thing I got from that article was that in 2016, we provided $8 mil to the PDF, largely for equipment (and maybe training) to enhance observation and biometric collection of migrants that account for about 2% of those apprehended along the border. That is a fantastic argument for how worthless some of the recent policies are. For @HCM (https://pistol-forum.com/member.php?u=1431), or the other guys that may know from first-hand experience, what does the enrollment into BITMAP actually do?
The wall is just part of the solution to the problem. I honestly don't understand how people can say it won't do anything. Its far from a 100% solution, but it will have an effect. Its nice to have partner nations assisting us, but that is going to have a much higher cost:benefit ratio over the long term. The principle of having foreign countries do a significant part of securing our own border seems asinine to me. Do we really expect the Mexican government to be effective at anything? Wasn't that country largely taken over by the cartels many years ago?
Where has ANYONE claimed that it won't do anything? This is your straw man, not anyone else's.
Edited:
This starts with a policy - and our current policies have failed us and there are no meaningful new policies in the works.
Relying on physical walls to address a policy failure is ineffectively attempting to treat a symptom, not the problem. What do you think tens or hundreds of thousands of human beings are going to do when sitting on the far side of a fixed obstacle? (1) create a humanitarian nightmare and (2) find ways to overcome that obstacle - it's human nature.
Even a stopped clock is right twice a day. In this case, Defense in depth is 1,000 x > a wall.
Walls are effective in urban areas and in some other areas for channeling movement but all they do is make illegal crossers easier to catch. They are an obstacle not a barrier. A tactic not a strategy.
The idea of a wall as the ultimate solution to Border security is ridiculous. It is kabuki theater providing the appearance of border security. Do you want Border security or the appearance of border security?
If you want real border security there are several other things which would be better use of the same money.
- Actually enforcing the “remains in Mexico pending asylum” provisions of the 1996 Immigration Act was a good start
- More immigration judges and DHS Attorneys to address the 800,000 and growing case back log
-More detention space and mandatory GPS monitoring for those who can’t be detained pending proceedings.
-diplomatic and economic pressure on Mexico to engage in something similar to SENAFRONT and deport Other Than Mexican (OTM) migrants detained in Mexico instead of releasing them with 20 day transit visas and allowing them to pass through to the U.S. unhindered.
Though Mexicans no longer constitute the majority of illegal migrants the Mexican Government is shitting all over us by giving a wink and a nod to all the OTM migrants passing through Mexico. We are Mexico’s bigger trading partner - use that pressure point.
A better solution would have been to address some of the legal and logistical issues barring a major/ mass casualty event involving foreigners congress is unlikely to do so. The Democrats want new D voters and the Republicans want to make money off cheap labor.
I tend to agree with you 100% on this, but will point out that almost any layered defense includes a final physical barrier. I think the only folks who believe that the wall was the sole barrier to stopping the stream of criminals entering the country are the same folks who have an agenda. Whether that’s a simple orange man bad syndrome to simply opposing anything your political opponent wants is TBD. The fact is that in addition to the wall there have been other attempts to stem various tides. From travel bans, to increased enforcement...
What has been the reply:
Walls are evil and don’t work
Travel bans from high risk places are racist.
Enforcement of existing laws = kids in cages
Overt obstruction of justice via leaked ICE raids.
Overt animosity towards ICE via protesters allowed to run amok...
Face it. There is and were always more solutions to the immigration debacle proposed by various administrations over the last few decades. They are always dumbed down and demonized by the propaganda machine to insure they are “resisted” by the imbeciles that surround us.
There will be no solution to illegal immigration. EVER. There is too much power and $$ involved to warrant a solution. If the problem were solved the $$ and power would dwindle. Ever know a single dedicated beuroctat or politician who will willingly work to eliminate or reduce his own power and wealth making ability? Didn’t think so.
Something truly horrific will need to happen before anyone takes up the idea of actually doing something effective.
The more I think of it, the more it seems like the analogy of an extremity hemorrhage fits. Slow the massive blood loss first. The wall is a tourniquet to do that. Sure it wont stop all of the blood, and there are other issues that will come up and things to consider, but if we don't provide some type of immediate solution (half solution or not), nothing else will matter because it'll be too late. 170k people in two months. Most of us can't even conceive an amount of people that large.
Re BITMAP - there are benefits best not discussed in a public forum.
A tourniquet stops all blood flow while it is in place. A wall WILL NOT do that. That is the lie in the sound bite that is “build the wall”
Like trying to stop bleeding with a towel instead of a TQ, it’s better than nothing and might buy you some time but the hemorrhage will continue.
I’m not opposed to walls in places they make sense but they are no panacea and there are better uses for the rest of that money.
Put another way I am all for spending an extra $$5 billion on border security but dumping it all into building a wall is a losing proposition.
An overlooked factor is even if you built a “proper wall” along the entire border it will take years to do so. The sections of fence being built right now in TX are being built using funds appropriated during the Obama administration.
In the past we had large numbers of single Mexican males, most were quickly turned around the same day and many were repeat customers, a 170,000 mexican apprehensions in the old days might represent 50,000 individuals being apprehended 2, 3, or 4 times. And when they were apprehended, they were run for warrants and criminal history, given a sack lunch and returned via a land border ports within 24 hours with no additional paperwork.
The 170,000 you are talking about are mostly OTM and are mostly family units and kids. Since the SF judge predictably blocked implementation of the 1996 Act’ s provisions for asylum seekers waiting in Mexico pending adjudication of their claims, even if you built an impenetrable wall, all they have to do is walk across the bridge at a port of entry and say I want asylum and they get in. They may get detained for a bit (20 days max if they have a minor kid) but they cannot legally and therefore will not be force to go back into Mexico. These people aren’t stupid and the word got out a long time ago that a kid with you is a get out of jail free card. Why do you think we’re are seeing kids being rented and recycled with different illegal crossers ?
The catch 22 is if the remain in Mexico provisions are finally placed in effect, those people who were walking across the bridge will now cross illegally because once they are US soil they have a statutory and treaty obligation right to make a claim for asylum. Most of those are denied after long, expensive and pointless litigation, but we signed a treaty and passed a law making it that way so we are stuck with it for the moment. when that happens, they will do anything necessary to go over, under, through or around that wall. We already see in it section with walls. Trucks with ramps, ladders, to go over, cutting torches and jacks to go through etc. )
Then you are back to the real problem we have now which all come back to a lack of consequences for illegal entry and false claims or a consequences so delayed they are meaningless.
logistical issues include
- inability to detain family units and minors
- lack consequences for false fear claims encouraging false and frivolous fear claims which negate the expedited removal processes put in place in 1996 to alleviate the overburdened immigration court system
- Low bar for “credible fear” encouraging false claims and shoving 80% of claims into the already overburdened court system
- An 800,000 case backlog in the immigration courts and only 394 immigration judges to handle it. This is actually an increase of over 100 judges from the Obama era.
- Due to th backlog, the current wait for a non-custody immigration hearing is now 3 years and it takes more than one hearing to adjudicate most cases so it can take 5-10 years of litigation to complete cases.
- many never show up or their hearings - they are then ordered deported in absentia (or at least they are supposed to be) but they can and often do request reopening of their cases.
-if they do show up they are not taken into custody at their hearing if ordered deported.
- Even if the OTMs are denied asylum and ordered deported they must be held for weeks in order to obtain travel documents from their home country and fly them back. We literally have multiple charter flights a week going to each of the northern triangle countries but it all takes, time, money and man power. They old days of a BP Agent grabbing a van and taking people back to the bridge the same day are over.
I tend to agree with you 100% on this, but will point out that almost any layered defense includes a final physical barrier. I think the only folks who believe that the wall was the sole barrier to stopping the stream of criminals entering the country are the same folks who have an agenda. Whether that’s a simple orange man bad syndrome to simply opposing anything your political opponent wants is TBD. The fact is that in addition to the wall there have been other attempts to stem various tides. From travel bans, to increased enforcement...
What has been the reply:
Walls are evil and don’t work
Travel bans from high risk places are racist.
Enforcement of existing laws = kids in cages
Overt obstruction of justice via leaked ICE raids.
Overt animosity towards ICE via protesters allowed to run amok...
Face it. There is and were always more solutions to the immigration debacle proposed by various administrations over the last few decades. They are always dumbed down and demonized by the propaganda machine to insure they are “resisted” by the imbeciles that surround us.
There will be no solution to illegal immigration. EVER. There is too much power and $$ involved to warrant a solution. If the problem were solved the $$ and power would dwindle. Ever know a single dedicated beuroctat or politician who will willingly work to eliminate or reduce his own power and wealth making ability? Didn’t think so.
Something truly horrific will need to happen before anyone takes up the idea of actually doing something effective.
Walls make sense in some places but building a wall next to a natural barrier like a river makes little sense when there are areas with no barriers at all. Even in place they do work like urban areas the wall is only as good as the force patrolling it and the consequences for those caught crossing it. Our patrol force is good but consequences are lacking.
The economic interests in both illegal immigration and cross border trade are why you saw Trump back off his threats to shut down the border so quickly.
...Our patrol force is good but consequences are lacking....
This x 10^Googleplex.
The root cause of our criminal immigration problem is not physical or even legal. Plenty of laws and legal tools available to use. It’s 100% lack of political will. You can spend a trillion dollars a day without addressing the political issue and still end up with millions of criminals flooding across the border.
Maybe instead if discussing how to fund a bigger wall or sensor deployments or machine gun turrets we should have a discussion of how to change the political will of our elected servants.
Wake27
04-12-2019, 01:50 PM
Where has ANYONE claimed that it won't do anything? This is your straw man, not anyone else's.
Edited:
This starts with a policy - and our current policies have failed us and there are no meaningful new policies in the works.
Relying on physical walls to address a policy failure is ineffectively attempting to treat a symptom, not the problem. What do you think tens or hundreds of thousands of human beings are going to do when sitting on the far side of a fixed obstacle? (1) create a humanitarian nightmare and (2) find ways to overcome that obstacle - it's human nature.
Exactly, HCM.
There is a simple solution (example: wall) to every complex problem.
Unfortunately, it doesn’t work.
The same benefit as any other any other early warning system. Having a preview of illegal migrants from outside the Western Hemisphere and time to positively identify them before they get to the border is quite useful in sorting the threats from the guys who just want to be cab drivers.
As for a wall, as I stated, it’s a tool that has uses but the Trump camp has sold the sound bite that building a wall will completely stop all illegal border traffic. This is a lie. It won’t stop anything, if I build a wall of HESCO barriers around my FOB in Afghanistan does that mean that is all I need to keep the enemy out ? No. The wall has to be watched and defended and used in conjunction with ISR, concertina, patrols etc, etc, etc, None of those things work by themselves. It’s one part of a system of defense in depth but if the Taliban can get to the wall, they can get over it or through it...
If you google "wall won't work" there are literally dozens of articles in the first few pages. Maybe I'm the one taking the liberty here, as I honestly thought I'd seen more claims of it not doing anything, but ineffective, won't work, etc is all saying the same thing IMO.
The policy failure is the lack of consequences for illegal immigrants. There is too much to gain and not nearly enough to lose to not attempt to break the immigration laws. Sure a wall is also a band aid solution, but give me a better one. By better, I mean one that can be implemented faster, for lower cost, remain in place for as long (policy changes all the time, a big ass border wall isn't going to just disappear with a new administration), and be as effective. Yes, people will find ways around but simple logic tells me that walking across open ground is far faster than digging a tunnel. Finally, who gives a shit about a humanitarian nightmare? Especially one that is entirely self-induced? The notion that we shouldn't build a wall because it'll create a mess of people on the Mexican side of the border is ridiculous, unless I just completely misunderstood you.
Casual Friday
04-12-2019, 02:10 PM
How about we just dig a giant moat along the border and fill it with crocodiles and sharks with frickin laser beams on their heads?
If you google "wall won't work" there are literally dozens of articles in the first few pages. Maybe I'm the one taking the liberty here, as I honestly thought I'd seen more claims of it not doing anything, but ineffective, won't work, etc is all saying the same thing IMO.
The policy failure is the lack of consequences for illegal immigrants. There is too much to gain and not nearly enough to lose to not attempt to break the immigration laws. Sure a wall is also a band aid solution, but give me a better one. By better, I mean one that can be implemented faster, for lower cost, remain in place for as long (policy changes all the time, a big ass border wall isn't going to just disappear with a new administration), and be as effective. Yes, people will find ways around but simple logic tells me that walking across open ground is far faster than digging a tunnel. Finally, who gives a shit about a humanitarian nightmare? Especially one that is entirely self-induced? The notion that we shouldn't build a wall because it'll create a mess of people on the Mexican side of the border is ridiculous, unless I just completely misunderstood you.
A wall is an obstacle - it will disrupt and channel those trying to cross - which helps catch them - it doesn’t cut off all flow like a tourniquet.
That brings us back to the deficiencies in post arrest process and consequences. These need to be prioritized over / before a wall.
You do seem to be misunderstanding me - a wall won’t create “a mess of people on the Mexican side” because it won’t cut off illegals crossings. It will just redirect them.
Lincoln suspended Habeus Corpus during the civil war. If Trump declared a national emergency and used it to suspended the Flores settlements 20 day detention window you could use that $1 billion in DOD money to set up camps for 100% detention of all illegal crossers. Use MAC flights for deportations etc. But you would still need the legal and administrative infrastructure to make all that work.
If the word got out that illegal crossing results in a few weeks in a tent city and a trip home instead of catch and release the supply side would dry up quick. The issue is we don’t have the will to do it.
How about we just dig a giant moat along the border and fill it with crocodiles and sharks with frickin laser beams on their heads?
The Rio Grande is basically a moat and people drown crossing it all the time. Just like a wall, it’s an obstacle not a barrier.
blues
04-12-2019, 02:31 PM
How about we just dig a giant moat along the border and fill it with crocodiles and sharks with frickin laser beams on their heads?
I see we think alike... (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?36063-Border-Patrol-official-Caravan-size-influx-of-migrants-arriving-every-week-in-Rio-Gr&p=868516&viewfull=1#post868516)
Casual Friday
04-12-2019, 02:46 PM
The Rio Grande is basically a moat and people drown crossing it all the time. Just like a wall, it’s an obstacle not a barrier.
Does the Rio Grande have crocodiles and sharks with frickin laser beams?
I see we think alike... (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?36063-Border-Patrol-official-Caravan-size-influx-of-migrants-arriving-every-week-in-Rio-Gr&p=868516&viewfull=1#post868516)
Great minds and all.
NEPAKevin
04-12-2019, 02:49 PM
How about we just dig a giant moat along the border and fill it with crocodiles and sharks with frickin laser beams on their heads?
Sharks and crocodiles tend to live in salt water which would probably complicate things, but other than that...
Does the Rio Grande have crocodiles and sharks with frickin laser beams?
Great minds and all.
Alligators aren’t unheard of near the Gulf.
Casual Friday
04-12-2019, 02:54 PM
Sharks and crocodiles tend to live in salt water which would probably complicate things, but other than that...
A minor setback, I'll give you that, but if they can make Shamu comfortable at Seaworld we can figure out a way to get the water salty enough.
blues
04-12-2019, 02:59 PM
A minor setback, I'll give you that, but if they can make Shamu comfortable at Seaworld we can figure out a way to get the water salty enough.
We just need to find or breed a few diadromous species.
NEPAKevin
04-12-2019, 02:59 PM
A minor setback, I'll give you that, but if they can make Shamu comfortable at Seaworld we can figure out a way to get the water salty enough.
Fill it with Progressive/Liberal Tears?
GuanoLoco
04-12-2019, 03:12 PM
If you google "wall won't work" there are literally dozens of articles in the first few pages. Maybe I'm the one taking the liberty here, as I honestly thought I'd seen more claims of it not doing anything, but ineffective, won't work, etc is all saying the same thing IMO.
The policy failure is the lack of consequences for illegal immigrants. There is too much to gain and not nearly enough to lose to not attempt to break the immigration laws. Sure a wall is also a band aid solution, but give me a better one. By better, I mean one that can be implemented faster, for lower cost, remain in place for as long (policy changes all the time, a big ass border wall isn't going to just disappear with a new administration), and be as effective. Yes, people will find ways around but simple logic tells me that walking across open ground is far faster than digging a tunnel. Finally, who gives a shit about a humanitarian nightmare? Especially one that is entirely self-induced? The notion that we shouldn't build a wall because it'll create a mess of people on the Mexican side of the border is ridiculous, unless I just completely misunderstood you.
I'm sure the right kinds of walls, cost-effectively place in the right places, with supporting patrols, etc. might be part of a much larger strategy to manage people crossing the border, which is part of a much larger strategy of managing immigration, illegal and otherwise.
If the conversation keeps coming back to "just build a wall" then I assume I am dealing with someone unwilling or unable to grasp the larger challenges and I'm not interested in wasting cycles on such a conversation.
Why go to all that trouble when a wall would work just as well? /Sarc
A wall works way better than no wall/ nor Sarc
farscott
04-12-2019, 04:47 PM
Something that has always bothered me about these type of issues is that people want to attack the supply-side of the issue, rather than the demand-side. For example, we have a war on drugs instead of a war on drug users. Prohibition created a new class of criminal. Narcotics users have created an even worse class. And that class works with the people who assist (for a fee, of course) people crossing into the USA. As long as there is a demand for anything illegal, enterprising individuals will find a way to profit from that demand. Booze, drugs, US residency, etc. are all the same: in demand. And when the demand exists, money can be made and people defend their income streams. Part of the immigration flows from Mexico exist because prospective immigrants, legal or otherwise, believe life is/will be better in the USA. As long as that is the case, the USA will be dealing with people trying to get here. And, in some ways, that is a good thing as not too many people want to emigrate to crummy places to live. So we do not want to attack the demand-side by making the USA a cesspool. Thus, we need to address demand in other ways.
My thought is that as long as make it difficult for good people to get here legally, we will have issues. And the USA does make it very hard for people who do the right thing and apply for visas to come here. I am absolutely amazed at how long and how expensive it is to legally immigrate to the USA. If we want to be able to select immigrants, the system for processing them needs to improve, both in selection methodology and speed of processing. Why spend years and tons of money on applications and visa visits when all you need to do is cross the border illegally?
Expecting other countries to help us is a bit naive. Why should Mexico house "asylum seekers"? How does it benefit Mexico? How does it lower the demand to get to the USA? It just makes the supply-side more valuable and attractive.
As for the wall, I see it as having some value but not being a panacea. Every wall was breached, even the Berlin Wall, which had the opposite goal. And the East Germans had no issues using techniques (mines and gunfire to spying and torture) to keep people in East Germany that the USA will never abide. The demand for freedom was so high that people risked their lives to cross into West Berlin. Same thing except that the USA is West Berlin. So the wall itself will never be enough; we need to provide a way for good people to come to the USA so that we can better focus on those bad people who still will try. It will never be 100%, but it can be better.
Borderland
04-12-2019, 06:11 PM
I spent 16 years of my life living within 20 miles of the border. I was born in El Paso. I was on the border for several months in AZ just a few years ago. This was during the winter when most people try to cross.
I'm not very optimistic about a wall. 1) It's impossible to build a wall in some areas due to terrain and flooding. A road has to built along the wall for maintenance and patrol. 2) In the areas where it can be built there are property rights issues. One doesn't just build a wall or anything in this country without dealing with property rights in the courts. You can't get around due process and eminent domain proceedings. That takes at least a year to resolve once started. I don't think any have been started yet. Then there's the sovereign nations that need to be dealt with. About 70 miles of the border is on the Tohono O’odham reservation. A lot of illegals cross on that reservation. There's a huge BP compound on the west edge of that reservation to deal with that. Illuminating flares at night and helicopters/BP patrols during the day is all you see down there.
The wall would just be a huge waste of money and take years to build.
What really needs to happen is immigration reform. Let the ones in that can be vetted. No documents from the country they came from no entry. Document them ( figure prints, photos, ID ) and give them legal status. Find them jobs. Have them report to INS every 6 months with proof of employment. Make the requirements to be in this country tough. Criminals should be deported immediately upon conviction. People without jobs should be deported. Make them all nothing more than a working class like the Chinese and Irish in the 1800's. If an adult can make it 10 years they would be eligible for citizenship. That includes the illegals already here.
If the immigration law was changed to deal with this influx we might have a better chance of adding a legal labor force that is needed and ejecting the undesirables.
We recently hired some skilled labor to do some work on our house. It took me 2 months to find someone to do the work. You can't tell me there isn't a labor shortage in the trades in this country. Even Trump hires illegals in his resorts.
Well, this in interesting:
Reports: Trump offered to pardon Homeland Security head if law broken while closing border
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2019/04/12/president-trump-offered-pardon-homeland-security-secretary-close-border/3450995002/?fbclid=IwAR2x0FUP6iTvZfYvVApf2UACb_Q1acvQIVmDh0VH wU5_8NJp5Ork7JzSOiY
GuanoLoco
04-12-2019, 08:10 PM
A wall works way better than no wall/ nor Sarc
IgnoreUser(wsr) /NoSarc
Something that has always bothered me about these type of issues is that people want to attack the supply-side of the issue, rather than the demand-side. For example, we have a war on drugs instead of a war on drug users. Prohibition created a new class of criminal. Narcotics users have created an even worse class. And that class works with the people who assist (for a fee, of course) people crossing into the USA. As long as there is a demand for anything illegal, enterprising individuals will find a way to profit from that demand. Booze, drugs, US residency, etc. are all the same: in demand. And when the demand exists, money can be made and people defend their income streams. Part of the immigration flows from Mexico exist because prospective immigrants, legal or otherwise, believe life is/will be better in the USA. As long as that is the case, the USA will be dealing with people trying to get here. And, in some ways, that is a good thing as not too many people want to emigrate to crummy places to live. So we do not want to attack the demand-side by making the USA a cesspool. Thus, we need to address demand in other ways.
My thought is that as long as make it difficult for good people to get here legally, we will have issues. And the USA does make it very hard for people who do the right thing and apply for visas to come here. I am absolutely amazed at how long and how expensive it is to legally immigrate to the USA. If we want to be able to select immigrants, the system for processing them needs to improve, both in selection methodology and speed of processing. Why spend years and tons of money on applications and visa visits when all you need to do is cross the border illegally?
Expecting other countries to help us is a bit naive. Why should Mexico house "asylum seekers"? How does it benefit Mexico? How does it lower the demand to get to the USA? It just makes the supply-side more valuable and attractive.
As for the wall, I see it as having some value but not being a panacea. Every wall was breached, even the Berlin Wall, which had the opposite goal. And the East Germans had no issues using techniques (mines and gunfire to spying and torture) to keep people in East Germany that the USA will never abide. The demand for freedom was so high that people risked their lives to cross into West Berlin. Same thing except that the USA is West Berlin. So the wall itself will never be enough; we need to provide a way for good people to come to the USA so that we can better focus on those bad people who still will try. It will never be 100%, but it can be better.
If Mexico were to detain and deport 3rd country nationals as I discussed earlier, I would expect us to fund it. Conversely, it would also behoove Mexico to to stay on the good side of its neighbor and number one trading partner.
As for the enforcement of the 1996 Immigration Act’s “remain in Mexico” provisions pending adjudication of asylum claims, no one expects Mexico to “House” them - the migrants are on their own and honestly the Mexicans share plenty of blame for them being there. First though it is widely ignored, under both US and international law those seeking asylum are supposed to apply for asylum in the first safe third country. So someone fearing persecution in Guatemala is supposed to apply for asylum in Mexico not skip through 1, 2, 3, 4, countries until they get to the one they want. Mexico aggravates this by giving 3rd country nationals 20 day transit visas if they say they intend to go on to the US. if you dump your trash in my yard why wouldn’t I dump it right back ?
Example- a Honduran family enters Mexico illegally, is apprehended and Mexico gives them. transit visa letting them cross Mexico legally as long as they leave in 20 days. They then go to the border. They then either cross the border illegally and surrender to the border patrol, or what is less well known but very common, they walk up to a U.S. port of entry with no documents as say they want asylum. They way things have been done, even though congress tried to stop it in 1996, is they are processed, temporarily detained and then “paroled” into the U.S. for “public benefit” the “benefit” being them attending the their immigration hearings. Talk about a self licking ice cream cone.
A stranger knocks on your door and asks if they can live in your house because of a a tale of woe. Do they wait outside while you check their story or do you let them move in and check later ? you then find out that the neighbor who has been dumping their trash in your yard refused to let them stay in their house but instead told them to come to yours.
IgnoreUser(wsr) /NoSarc
Oh no, whatever will I do? LOL
A wall still works better than no wall... sticking your fingers in your ears doesn’t change that
A wall works way better than no wall/ nor Sarc
A wall has some effect but not nearly enough. Three reasons it is not that simple:
1) There is an opportunity cost to building a wall. In other words what other, more effective, border security measures could be implemented for $5 billion ?
2) As discussed a wall is an obstacle, not a barrier, meaning it channels and disrupts those trying to cross illegally but it does not stop them. It just makes it easier to catch them. That brings us back to the issue we have now, the logistics of ensuring there are consequences to crossing illegally or filing frivolous asylum claims. That is the number one issue right now and a wall does nothing to address it. In fact, it makes things worse by denying resources to address the logistics of consequences. Once again, amateurs talk tactics, professionals talk logistics.
3) An effective wall takes years to build. We have a border security crisis that needs to be addressed NOW. not 5 years from now. As I stated earlier the wall sections being built right now were funded under the Obama administration.
Unsurprising as this a clearly authorized by statute.
U.S. court temporarily allows Trump admin to resume returning asylum-seekers to Mexico
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/trump-admin-files-emergency-request-stay-order-blocking-return-asylum-n993991
A federal appeals court in California took action Friday that would temporarily allow the Trump administration to return asylum seekers to Mexico.
The decision is in response to the Trump administration's emergency motion filing from Thursday asking the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 9th Circuit in San Francisco to stop a nationwide injunction that would bar the government from continuing its policy of forcing migrants to wait in Mexico as their asylum cases play out.
A wall has some effect but not nearly enough. Three reasons it is not that simple:
1) There is an opportunity cost to building a wall. In other words what other, more effective, border security measures could be implemented for $5 billion ?
2) As discussed a wall is an obstacle, not a barrier, meaning it channels and disrupts those trying to cross illegally but it does not stop them. It just makes it easier to catch them. That brings us back to the issue we have now, the logistics of ensuring there are consequences to crossing illegally or filing frivolous asylum claims. That is the number one issue right now and a wall does nothing to address it. In fact, it makes things worse by denying resources to address the logistics of consequences. Once again, amateurs talk tactics, professionals talk logistics.
3) An effective wall takes years to build. We have a border security crisis that needs to be addressed NOW. not 5 years from now. As I stated earlier the wall sections being built right now were funded under the Obama administration.
I agree, I’m not trying to say a wall is the answer but it is a big part of the answer.
In my mind a wall is not the most effective thing we could do but it is the most effective strategy we will get, politicians will never implement the kind of changes that would be really effective (they don’t want to solve problems they just want to appear to be trying ) and if they do the next congress will just defund it
I’m pretty sure I already covered this:
Message received, sorry
Borderland
04-12-2019, 10:44 PM
A wall has some effect but not nearly enough. Three reasons it is not that simple:
1) There is an opportunity cost to building a wall. In other words what other, more effective, border security measures could be implemented for $5 billion ?
2) As discussed a wall is an obstacle, not a barrier, meaning it channels and disrupts those trying to cross illegally but it does not stop them. It just makes it easier to catch them. That brings us back to the issue we have now, the logistics of ensuring there are consequences to crossing illegally or filing frivolous asylum claims. That is the number one issue right now and a wall does nothing to address it. In fact, it makes things worse by denying resources to address the logistics of consequences. Once again, amateurs talk tactics, professionals talk logistics.
3) An effective wall takes years to build. We have a border security crisis that needs to be addressed NOW. not 5 years from now. As I stated earlier the wall sections being built right now were funded under the Obama administration.
People who want to run out and start building major structures generally have no engineering or construction experience. Most of the large projects I worked on were in the planning/design phase for years before the actual construction started. There's environmental permits, court challenges (which we are seeing now) property acquisition, engineering of structures, roads and drainage, on and on. 5 years is not a long time in the construction business and is fairly normal for projects of this size. I'm thinking if it were fast tracked maybe 3 years but a lot of things would be broken in the process and a lot of law suits with enormous costs to the fed in the end. You just don't build a road and a wall across someones property without paying for the damage. You first have to purchase the ROW or pay about triple the cost in damages.
I know how this works because I was in the road and bridge building business for 30 years. Courts don't look kindly at gov't agencies that don't play by their own rules. This would be a federal project and the feds have more rules than anyone when it comes to building anything.
Spartan1980
04-12-2019, 11:01 PM
A wall has some effect but not nearly enough.
A wall will go an awful long way. The other things are still required but will be much more effective with a wall in place.
Source:
https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/01/border-walls-democrat-partisan-politics/
37202
A wall will go an awful long way. The other things are still required but will be much more effective with a wall in place.
Source:
https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/01/border-walls-democrat-partisan-politics/
37202
Figures lie and liars figure. The writers in national review are as partisan and willing to twist the truth as those on the left claiming walls are “racist.”
build a wall in one sector and you channel traffic somewhere else - Nogales numbers go down- Douglas numbers go up.
Also those “pre” figures are mostly Mexicans getting caught multiple times and trying again. A very different situation than what is going on now.
Speaking of Mexican migration, it has been declining for about a decade. The bulk of the current problems are from Central America.
build a wall in one sector and you channel traffic somewhere else - Nogales numbers go down- Douglas numbers go up.
That's exactly what I was thinking. In addition, those are places where a wall makes sense.
Even if we took for granted that the walls featured in that graphic created an overall reduction of EWIs as implied instead of funneling traffic elsewhere, that doesn't mean the wall would be effective in another area as you've pointed out repeatedly, apparently to deaf ears.
Out of par staffing of 15 agents, a buddy of mine was the only agent to show up to shift the other day to patrol a 1500sqmi focus area (the entire AOR being even bigger). Their FOB which had 20-24 agents at it 24/7/365 (in addition to the regular beat) when he was hired 10+ years ago is now routinely shuttered with no one staffing it.
Wall won't do shit in that area. There aren't even agents to provide security to the guys building the walls, they'll have to fly them in from elsewhere or use contract security guards.
Spartan1980
04-13-2019, 02:13 PM
OK since you don't like that source, how about the NYT?
That moment has arrived. The country is now unable to provide either the necessary humanitarian relief for desperate migrants or even basic controls on the number and nature of who is entering the United States.
The immigration courts now have more than 800,000 pending cases; each one takes an average of 700 days to process. And because laws and court rulings aimed at protecting children prohibit jailing young people for more than 20 days, families are often simply released. They are dropped off at downtown bus stations in places like Brownsville, Tex., where dozens last week sat on gray metal benches, most without money or even laces on their shoes, heading for destinations across the United States.
At the current pace of nearly 100,000 migrants each month, officials say more than a million people will have tried to cross the border in a 12-month period. Some of those arriving today will have a strong legal case to stay under international refugee treaties and federal asylum laws, but most won’t have a formal asylum hearing until 2021.
The flow of migrant families has reached record levels, with February totals 560 percent above those for the same period last year. As many as 27,000 children are expected to cross the border and enter the immigration enforcement system in April alone. So crowded are border facilities that some of the nearly 3,500 migrants in custody in El Paso were herded earlier this month under a bridge, behind razor wire.
In recent days, officials have grasped for ever-more-dire ways to describe the situation: “operational emergency”; “unsustainable”; “systemwide meltdown.”
One top official said simply: “The system is on fire.”
More here:
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/10/us/immigration-border-mexico.html
Whether you like it or not, and we can debate on methods, legislation, technology, BP and immigration court staffing levels, and all the other minutia, but we've been doing that for 50 years. There's no longer time for social experimentation. We are no longer able to throw stuff at the wall to see if something sticks. The one thing we haven't really gave an honest try in the past is a wall. Trump called it when he was running. You guys are going to have to eat your crow at some point. The question that remains is are we going to have a country left?
OK since you don't like that source, how about the NYT?
Whether you like it or not, and we can debate on methods, legislation, technology, BP and immigration court staffing levels, and all the other minutia, but we've been doing that for 50 years. There's no longer time for social experimentation. We are no longer able to throw stuff at the wall to see if something sticks. The one thing we haven't really gave an honest try in the past is a wall. Trump called it when he was running. You guys are going to have to eat your crow at some point. The question that remains is are we going to have a country left?
I’m all for border security and I want that 5 billion era marked for the wall spent on things that will result in ACTUAL border security, not the APPEARANCE of border security.
What I don’t want is a to be 5 years down the road with a shiny wall some people are climbing over while others come on boats along the gulf coast (which is how it will play out). AND that 800k court back log now at 1.5 million and a 1400 day processing time for cases. Not to mention the current back log of outstanding deportation orders doubling as well.
We have been building fencing since the late 1990s. It a tactic that works in certain places, notably urban areas like San Diego and El Paso but it works by funneling traffic to other areas where they are easier to catch. That still leaves the issues of consequences and post arrest logistics.
If you think a wall is going magically stop all (or even a majority) of illegal border crossings like a tourniquet cutting off blood flow you are living in a fantasy land.
A wall may change how and were illegal entries happen but it will “stop” nothing and it will take years to do it. An effective wall along the entire US border is a 10-15 year project. As you said we don’t have that kind of time.
Trumps call for a wall is a great sound bite from a political / marketing point of view but in reality it’s bullshit.
In fairness to trump did try to imposes consequences in the form of 100% prosecution of illegal entries but that was spun into “family separation” which was a collateral effect of prosecution. The fact that kids get turned over to child protective services every day when their parents get arrested was lost - a big political /marketing / media fail by the Trump administration.
I am talking about putting money into things we can 1) Do now or in the immediate future and 2) will not be tied up in years of litigation by a “Hawaii” or “San Francisco” Judge.
Whether you like it or not, and we can debate on methods, legislation, technology, BP and immigration court staffing levels, and all the other minutia, but we've been doing that for 50 years. There's no longer time for social experimentation. We are no longer able to throw stuff at the wall to see if something sticks. The one thing we haven't really gave an honest try in the past is a wall. Trump called it when he was running. You guys are going to have to eat your crow at some point. The question that remains is are we going to have a country left?
The conditions outlined in that article are due to a failed enforcement system, not due to the lack of a wall.
You're attributing those conditions to the lack of a wall, without admitting to the fact that our enforcement system is hamstrung. Walls won't make a difference when the EWIs climb the wall just to be picked up by the waiting greenshirts on the other side who are forced to parole them into America pending adjudication of their claims.
What HCM, myself, and many other LEOs want to happen isn't to "throw stuff at the wall to see what sticks". That's actually what you're trying to do. What we want to do is to actually act on our legislated statutes, so that the enforcement system has teeth. We want the courts to be staffed properly so that we can actually prosecute people for their crimes against the American people, and so the immigration courts can actually deport people in a sane manner. We don't want asylees paroled into the US when their claim is obviously bogus, like when they put down an address/relative they're going to stay with being the same fucking name/address that the other 500 people who got rolled up that day also put down. What I want to happen is illegal immigrants who steal American identities to actually do time for it, instead of every USAO turning it down due to ridiculously high thresholds because there's way more work to handle than there are AUSAs and docket space.
How about enforcing the fucking laws? Now THAT is something we haven't tried in the past.
Joe in PNG
04-13-2019, 04:07 PM
A wall without guards is just a source of unauthorized building material. I'm sure there's a few Mexican villages that would be happy to recycle any unwatched sections.
If there's not enough people to actively guard the thing, it's a waste of money.
Borderland
04-13-2019, 04:31 PM
There are areas right now where the wall is several hundred feet from the border. Which means that illegals step foot on US soil, go to the barrier and wait for a BP bus ride to a holding facility where they are processed and released because there isn't any place to hold them.
That will also be the case with many new sections of a wall. There are area where roads can't be built and a road is necessary to build, patrol and maintain the wall. If you look at any sections of the existing wall you will notice a road in close proximity to the wall.
The problem here isn't catching or stopping the illegals. Mostly they just step foot on US soil and wait for the bus. No sense striking out across the desert and risking death when your main objective is to request asylum.
The money needs to be spent on more BP agents, judges and a streamlined system of evaluation and deportation if it warrants. If they don't warrant deportation then give them legal status and put them to work in Trumps resorts. ;)
An exemplar of “infrastructure” being an obstacle vs a barrier.
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/local-media-release/large-group-undeterred-infrastructure-west-lukeville?fbclid=IwAR3fzllXkJyhe1JR3TG27l622BdJ_QY DqaNQhHR1vrFR1V57eh9L7FyjqWI
Large Group Undeterred by Infrastructure West of Lukeville
Borderland
04-13-2019, 06:42 PM
An exemplar of “infrastructure” being an obstacle vs a barrier.
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/local-media-release/large-group-undeterred-infrastructure-west-lukeville?fbclid=IwAR3fzllXkJyhe1JR3TG27l622BdJ_QY DqaNQhHR1vrFR1V57eh9L7FyjqWI
Large Group Undeterred by Infrastructure West of Lukeville
Looks like a drop off and pick up point. I wonder if they have a set schedule.
There is no high barrier in that area. The same is true for the border east of Lukeville. Mostly just a fence or vehicle barrier. That's the area where the BP could us some help with a high barrier but it still wouldn't stop them, just slow them down a few minutes. Once over or under the barrier they just sit down and wait for the BP bus so really what's the point? They end up here anyway.
Most of the illegals in this country came here legally and overstayed their visa.
Looks like a drop off and pick up point. I wonder if they have a set schedule.
There is no high barrier in that area. The same is true for the border east of Lukeville. Mostly just a fence or vehicle barrier. That's the area where the BP could us some help with a high barrier but it still wouldn't stop them, just slow them down a few minutes. Once over or under the barrier they just sit down and wait for the BP bus so really what's the point? They end up here anyway.
Most of the illegals in this country came here legally and overstayed their visa.
Visa overstays are a significant issue but not a majority of the over all population of illegals. Departure control is also something we have never had a good handle on.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/Foreigners-Overstayed-Visas-2017-Report-490344971.html%3famp=y
Given how poor our departure control system is there are many entries without matching departures and vice versa so I am always skeptical of the numbers but there is no denying it is a significant issue.
GuanoLoco
04-13-2019, 07:02 PM
OK since you don't like that source, how about the NYT?
Whether you like it or not, and we can debate on methods, legislation, technology, BP and immigration court staffing levels, and all the other minutia, but we've been doing that for 50 years. There's no longer time for social experimentation. We are no longer able to throw stuff at the wall to see if something sticks. The one thing we haven't really gave an honest try in the past is a wall. Trump called it when he was running. You guys are going to have to eat your crow at some point. The question that remains is are we going to have a country left?
If the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.
“The Wall” is a purely political device designed to make an easily misled subset of the population believe that Trump has a simple solution to a far more complex problem. He doesn’t, and frankly the only thing happening is that he is making the situation worse.
The unintended consequence of his carrying on about a wall, closing the border, the country is ‘full’, etc. has been to drive up demand to emigrate to the US ‘right now’ before the opportunity is lost. I was listening to a piece today where south american smugglers were actually running radio adds playing off Trump’s public statements to drum up business with the fearful and easily misled.
The whole thing sounds an awful lot like the movement to “buy your AR-15’s NOW before Obama bans them.”
Borderland
04-13-2019, 10:04 PM
If the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.
“The Wall” is a purely political device designed to make an easily misled subset of the population believe that Trump has a simple solution to a far more complex problem. He doesn’t, and frankly the only thing happening is that he is making the situation worse.
The unintended consequence of his carrying on about a wall, closing the border, the country is ‘full’, etc. has been to drive up demand to emigrate to the US ‘right now’ before the opportunity is lost. I was listening to a piece today where south american smugglers were actually running radio adds playing off Trump’s public statements to drum up business with the fearful and easily misled.
The whole thing sounds an awful lot like the movement to “buy your AR-15’s NOW before Obama bans them.”
Trump is absolutely the best incentive for anyone in the northern triangle to try to make it to the US before they erect more barriers and shut off immigration to those seeking asylum. More than likely why the numbers are way up in the last month. If he could just shut his mouth (which he can't) and work with congress the situation might improve but as it stands now nothing is moving except thousands of people trying to get in under the wire.
I guess he thinks they don't have news service and twitter in those SH countries.
Trump, the greatest illegal immigration promoter of the decade.
His real estate promotion experience has served him well. It's all very a very calculated ruse to get reelected.
GuanoLoco
04-13-2019, 10:25 PM
Trump is absolutely the best incentive for anyone in the northern triangle to try to make it to the US before they erect more barriers and shut off immigration to those seeking asylum. More than likely why the numbers are way up in the last month. If he could just shut his mouth (which he can't) and work with congress the situation might improve but as it stands now nothing is moving except thousands of people trying to get in under the wire.
I guess he thinks they don't have news service and twitter in those SH countries.
Trump, the greatest illegal immigration promoter of the decade.
His real estate promotion experience has served him well.
Unintended consequences are a bitch.
37252
Borderland
04-13-2019, 10:46 PM
Unintended consequences are a bitch.
37252
I suspect Trump is trying to promote a crises much like the N. Korean leader Kim. Kim insists there is hostility toward his country to promote his Nuclear weapons program whilst his people struggle to feed themselves. It's more or less a manufactured crises. No such hostility exists and S. Korea is proof. Maybe that's why Trump likes Kim so much, they think alike.
Seems to be working judging from the reaction some people have to an invasion of women and children.
GuanoLoco
04-14-2019, 08:08 AM
I suspect Trump is trying to promote a crises much like the N. Korean leader Kim. Kim insists there is hostility toward his country to promote his Nuclear weapons program whilst his people struggle to feed themselves. It's more or less a manufactured crises. No such hostility exists and S. Korea is proof. Maybe that's why Trump likes Kim so much, they think alike.
Seems to be working judging from the reaction some people have to an invasion of women and children.
This is no more than the classic plays of the populist demogogue.
Demonization of a subset of a population, exploiting prejudice and ignorance
Whipping up passions, and ignoring or shouting down reasoned deliberation
A manufactured crisis (that, though unintended consequence, appears to be escalating into an actual crisis.)
Specious claims of a simple solution that, upon analysis, doesn’t hold water.
Claims that ‘powerful others’ are somehow holding the demogogue back from implementing the solution
This has nothing to do with facts or logic and everything to do with constructing claims that sound good or bad, regardless of the facts. The demagogue has a willingness to lie and change positions moment-to-moment to capitalize on the ‘feeilings’ of the audience being appealed to.
What the demagogue and demagogue’s noisy supporters cannot deal with is a cool, rational analysis of the problems, proposed solution(s), costs, timelines, benefits, and predictable as well as potential unintended consequences. Any such attempts are deliberately met with a ‘pigeon chess’ response because rational discourse is not possible.
RoyGBiv
04-19-2019, 09:42 AM
New Mexico militia detains migrants at gunpoint until Border Patrol arrives (https://www.foxnews.com/us/new-mexico-right-wing-militia-detains-migrants-at-gunpoint-until-border-patrol-arrives)
“It should go without saying that regular citizens have no authority to arrest or detain anyone,” the governor of New Mexico, Michelle Lujan Grisham, said in a statement to The New York Times, adding that it is “completely unacceptable” that migrants be “menaced or threatened” upon entering the U.S.
The American Civil Liberties Union said in a statement that “the Trump administration’s vile racism” emboldened these groups.
Of course the ACLU would say that. :rolleyes:
Wake27
04-19-2019, 11:34 AM
New Mexico militia detains migrants at gunpoint until Border Patrol arrives (https://www.foxnews.com/us/new-mexico-right-wing-militia-detains-migrants-at-gunpoint-until-border-patrol-arrives)
Of course the ACLU would say that. :rolleyes:
Can’t say I’m surprised, but that can and probably will get messy very quickly. It’ll be interesting to watch how stuff like that unfolds.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Alpha Sierra
04-19-2019, 12:01 PM
What if the wall is built a mile inside the border and that mile is declared an exclusion zone where deadly force authorization exists 24/7/365?
I bet that will slow it down to a trickle.
Border control should be a military problem except at the designated ports of entry, where civilian law enforcement can deal with the control.
CleverNickname
04-19-2019, 01:07 PM
What if the wall is built a mile inside the border
I'm purposely ignoring the rest of your scenario, but eminent domain will be a big problem for Trump's wall as it is, so if you think a 1-mile wide exclusion zone is anywhere in the realm of possibility, LOL.
New Mexico militia detains migrants at gunpoint until Border Patrol arrives (https://www.foxnews.com/us/new-mexico-right-wing-militia-detains-migrants-at-gunpoint-until-border-patrol-arrives)
Of course the ACLU would say that. :rolleyes:
Governor Grisham is a commie turd but even s stopped clock is right twice a day. There is no federal citizens arrest and from what I have seen of the so called "border militias" it would not take long for such activities to go wrong.
Of interest:
https://www.kveo.com/news/local-news/border-patrol-identifies-over-3-000-fraudulent-family-cases/1936727806
Border Patrol identifies over 3,000 fraudulent family cases
https://valleycentral.com/news/local/hsi-investigates-fake-family-units-illegally-entering-us
HSI investigates fake family units illegally entering U.S.
Alpha Sierra
04-19-2019, 01:58 PM
I'm purposely ignoring the rest of your scenario, but eminent domain will be a big problem for Trump's wall as it is, so if you think a 1-mile wide exclusion zone is anywhere in the realm of possibility, LOL.
Make it 300 yards, the exact number isn't that important. As to the rest of the scenario, either you are serious about national security or you're not.
Governor Grisham is a commie turd but even s stopped clock is right twice a day. There is no federal citizens arrest and from what I have seen of the so called "border militias" it would not take long for such activities to go wrong.
Not siding with the group, as I agree these things just increase the % fir stuff going sideways, but maybe they were detaining trespassers???
In general groups like this are the reason why we can’t have nice things. They will light up a group of poor misunderstood folks and blamo - gun ban.
Not siding with the group, as I agree these things just increase the % fir stuff going sideways, but maybe they were detaining trespassers???
In general groups like this are the reason why we can’t have nice things. They will light up a group of poor misunderstood folks and blamo - gun ban.
Landowners /residents detaining trespassers is a state issue.
However bring in border milita groups to patrol for trespassing has gone wrong before.
https://www.dallasobserver.com/news/soldiers-of-misfortune-6387725
New Mexico militia detains migrants at gunpoint until Border Patrol arrives (https://www.foxnews.com/us/new-mexico-right-wing-militia-detains-migrants-at-gunpoint-until-border-patrol-arrives)
Of course the ACLU would say that. :rolleyes:
The FBI has arrested the leader of this border militia for being a felon in possession of firearms.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2019/04/20/us/militia-arrest-border-new-mexico.amp.html
F.B.I. Arrests Leader of Right-Wing Militia That Detained Migrants in New Mexico
ALBUQUERQUE — The F.B.I. on Saturday arrested the leader of a right-wing militia that was detaining migrant families at gunpoint near the border in southern New Mexico, as the group faced a torrent of criticism for its tactics.
Hector Balderas, New Mexico’s attorney general, said federal agents had arrested the leader, Larry Mitchell Hopkins, who had been operating under the alias Johnny Horton Jr. Mr. Balderas said in a statement that Mr. Hopkins was arrested on charges of firearms possession by a fel
he firearms charge against Mr. Hopkins is relatively minor. But it is likely the start of a deeper investigation into his activities and those of the militia, and opens the way for the authorities to bring more serious charges like kidnapping and impersonating a police officer or an employee of the United States.
Mr. Hopkins’s arrest comes as tensions rise over ultraconservative paramilitary groups operating along the southwestern border. Professed militias have a long history of targeting immigrants from Latin America, tracing back to the Ku Klux Klan’s creation of its own border patrol in the 1970s. Record numbers of Central American migrants apprehended by federal authorities in recent months have been accompanied by a new surge in militia activity on the border.
The organization led by Mr. Hopkins, the United Constitutional Patriots, recently uploaded videos of armed members detaining children and their parents in a stretch of the New Mexico desert near El Paso, before handing the migrants over to the Border Patrol.
The KKK has their own border militia back in the 1970s:
https://www.nytimes.com/1977/10/18/archives/ku-klux-klan-plans-border-patrol-to-help-fight-illegal-alien.html
perlslacker
04-20-2019, 10:53 PM
Exactly, HCM.
There is a simple solution (example: wall) to every complex problem.
Unfortunately, it doesn’t work.
silly rabbit, Americans have no patience for nuance.
if your immigration strategy won't fit on a bumper sticker then I don't want to hear it.
#MAGA
perlslacker
04-21-2019, 09:08 AM
In general groups like this are the reason why we can’t have nice things. They will light up a group of poor misunderstood folks and blamo - gun ban.
Yup! This is why we, in the shooting community, need to get better about disowning scumbag gun owners who do scumbag things.
We're judged by the worst of us.
GuanoLoco
04-22-2019, 06:35 AM
silly rabbit, Americans have no patience for nuance.
if your immigration strategy won't fit on a bumper sticker then I don't want to hear it.
#MAGA
If only we had a leader who was interested in real solutions and leading the whole country vs. engaging in partisan politics, divisiveness and ADD domination of the 24 hour news cycle.
Never mind, I was dreaming and just woke up.
Joe in PNG
04-22-2019, 03:41 PM
If only we had a leader who was interested in real solutions and leading the whole country vs. engaging in partisan politics, divisiveness and ADD domination of the 24 hour news cycle.
Democratic Party: "Hold my beer..."
blues
04-22-2019, 03:48 PM
Democratic Party: "Hold my beer..."
Probably more like hold my vegan smoothie...
For those concerned about an exclusionary zone at the border and imminent domain issues there is already a 60 foot strip of land on the U.S. side of the international border from CA. to the E side of NM. controlled by the Federal Government, since 1907 called the Roosevelt Reservation.
From Wikipedia:
The Roosevelt Reservation is a 60-foot (18 m) strip of land on the United States side of the United States–Mexico Border under the jurisdiction of the United States Federal Government. It was established in a 1907 Presidential Proclamation (35 Stat. 2136) by Theodore Roosevelt in order to keep public lands in California, Arizona, and New Mexico "free from obstruction as a protection against the smuggling of goods between the United States and Mexico".Texas is not mentioned, due to the details of the Texas annexation, where Texas retained all public lands upon annexation and admittance as a state.
And really any barrier built along the U.S. / Mexico border is basically just an extension and improvement on the original (and first) physical barrier built between our two nations in Nogales, AZ by President Peña (Mexico’s president) in 1918 anyway...
If only we had a leader who was interested in real solutions and leading the whole country vs. engaging in partisan politics, divisiveness and ADD domination of the 24 hour news cycle.
Never mind, I was dreaming and just woke up.
If we only had a Congress made up of decent folks instead of self centered career shills engaging in partisan politics, divisiveness and ADD domination of the propaganda cycle... oh wait this is 2019 America. WTF was I thinking.
I truly wish the issue was as simple as a retarded president. Presidents don’t make law, Congress does. These perverted buffoons we call legislators are to blame to this mess. Double down with idiot judges and a propaganda machine and you have the perfect storm of stupid that has spent decades making a mess while we have bought into the distraction of Orange Man Bad or Obama is from Kenya. Yay us!!!
GuanoLoco
04-23-2019, 08:32 PM
If we only had a Congress made up of decent folks instead of self centered career shills engaging in partisan politics, divisiveness and ADD domination of the propaganda cycle... oh wait this is 2019 America. WTF was I thinking.
I truly wish the issue was as simple as a retarded president. Presidents don’t make law, Congress does. These perverted buffoons we call legislators are to blame to this mess. Double down with idiot judges and a propaganda machine and you have the perfect storm of stupid that has spent decades making a mess while we have bought into the distraction of Orange Man Bad or Obama is from Kenya. Yay us!!!
It is easier for one man to define a mission and lead the way than to get material agreement from 435 Representatives and 100 Senators - and even more agreement to become veto-proof. A certain mount of chaos is inivitable in Congress, and this is part of the grand design.
On the other hand, one man, POTUS, bears a rather clear and singular responsibility for his action and inaction.
Frankly, I don’t give ANY of them a pass on this.
Obama gave up on the Congress and tried to rule through Executive Orders. What’s different about Trump’s approach, with the exception of a (far more) blatant disregard for the Rule of Law.
And then there is this: Trump needs to get the FAA and CBP to bring the hammer down on King County WA.
https://www.kingcounty.gov/elected/executive/constantine/news/release/2019/April/23-ICE-KCIA.aspx?fbclid=IwAR0yxQb7rCPg48Eo4JnuVjswDnwVDqB 4acw2RvInALDT8_pKBIAF7GHmuRA
Executive Constantine directs actions against ICE detainee flights from King County Airport
The “peaceful innocent migrants seeking only asylum” picked up rocks and sticks to attack Mexican police when they were approached. Respect to Mexico for finally stepping up to the plate and our government for convincing them to do so.... this is one part of a strategy for actual border security rather than the appearance of border security.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/migrants-anxious-after-mexican-authorities-raid-caravan/ar-BBWcgRF?ocid=sf
Migrants anxious after Mexican authorities raid caravan
PIJIJIAPAN, Mexico — Central American migrants hoping to reach the U.S. are finding a much tougher trek than those in previous caravans, meeting unwelcoming townsfolk and a surprise raid by Mexican police and immigration agents who detained hundreds in Mexico's south.
While their compatriots were been taken into custody Monday, hundreds of other migrants scrambled away into the brush along the highway in Chiapas state to elude authorities.
Many had already learned they would not be received in towns with the same hospitality that greeted previous caravans, and now they know they won't be safe walking along the rural highway either. Mexican authorities say they detained 367 people in the largest single raid on a migrant caravan since the groups started moving through the country last year.
The FBI has arrested the leader of this border militia for being a felon in possession of firearms.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2019/04/20/us/militia-arrest-border-new-mexico.amp.html
F.B.I. Arrests Leader of Right-Wing Militia That Detained Migrants in New Mexico
Update:
Leader of US Citizen Border Patrol Group Attacked in Jail
https://m.theepochtimes.com/leader-of-us-citizen-border-patrol-attacked-in-jail_2893663.html
Once again, logistics are the real issue.
This is interesting but likely corresponds with CBP recently canceling their recent contract for an outside firm to assist with hiring 7500 new LEOs.
Border Patrol Announces Bonuses To Keep Agents On The Job
https://www.oann.com/border-patrol-announces-bonuses-to-keep-agents-on-the-job/?fbclid=IwAR2Au2W8WLYa_6BGytpeDQzh5CmAFx6vp-vyWnOBVLoKjPYG63uccTqmT8I
CBP terminates controversial $297 million Accenture contract amid continued staffing struggles
https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/05/politics/cbp-terminate-hiring-contract-accenture/index.html
Washington (CNN)Customs and Border Protection on Thursday ended its controversial $297 million hiring contract with Accenture, according to two senior DHS officials and an Accenture representative.
As of December, when CBP terminated part of its contract, the company had only completed processing 58 applicants and only 22 had made it onto the payroll about a year after the company was hired.
At the time, the 3,500 applicants that remained in the Accenture hiring pipeline were transferred to CBP's own hiring center to complete the process.
CBP cut ties with Accenture on processing applicants a few months ago, it retained some services, including marketing, advertising and applicant support.
This week, the entire contract was terminated for "convenience," government speak for agreeing to part ways without placing blame on Accenture.
While government hiring is "slow and onerous, it's also part of being in the government" and that's "something we have to accept and deal with as we go forward," said one of the officials.
For its efforts, CBP paid Accenture around $19 million in start-up costs, and around $2 million for 58 people who got job offers, according to the officials.
Over the last couple of months, CBP explored how to modify the contract, but ultimately decided to completely stop work and return any remaining funds to taxpayers.
Meanwhile, hiring remains difficult for the agency amid a surge of migrants at the southern border that is stretching CBP resources thin.
It "continues to be a very challenging environment," said one official about hiring efforts this year.
In fact, one of the reasons that CBP didn't need Accenture to process applicants, is because the agency didn't receive as many applications as it initially planned for.
The agency has been focused on beating attrition and has been able to recently "beat it by a modest amount," said the official. "Ultimately we would like to beat it by a heck of a lot, but we're not there yet."
OlongJohnson
04-25-2019, 06:01 PM
So that's >$350k per job offer.
Government contracting at its finest.
The Southern land border is a unique place and it will always find a way to surprise you:
Tiger Spotted in the Rio Grande River
37749
https://sanangelolive.com/news/outdoors/2019-05-01/tiger-spotted-rio-grande-river?fbclid=IwAR1LwHEY31krd0ZrYd1FFeM8ZsCcJkJq12S HP2ftTrYCHlvJ9sWyPEuKQfg
https://m.facebook.com/elmananadenuevolaredo/posts/10161835150800338
Not the first tigers found in the Rio Grande Valley, though the first I recall living in the wild:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/animalia/wp/2018/05/01/federal-agents-peered-into-a-duffel-bag-on-the-mexico-border-they-found-a-tiger-cub/?utm_term=.4e0ae1965181
37754
Taken by our Boat guys a few years back...
37754
Taken by our Boat guys a few years back...
"Never get out of the boat. Absolutely goddamn right. Unless you were goin' all the way." Capt. Willard.
https://youtu.be/YbFvAaO9j8M
Wake27
05-02-2019, 08:51 PM
37754
Taken by our Boat guys a few years back...
What the hell is that?
Joe in PNG
05-02-2019, 08:56 PM
What the hell is that?
I'd be more concerned about the "where" part myself.
WobblyPossum
05-02-2019, 09:13 PM
What the hell is that?
Looks like two tigers fighting. The idea that they’re just wandering around in the US is kinda scary.
blues
05-02-2019, 09:18 PM
Looks like two tigers fighting. The idea that they’re just wandering around in the US is kinda scary.
You gonna tell 'em where they can and cannot go?
Wait one...this just in...new information just released from the White House has disclosed that the "fake" tigers are actually cleverly disguised Mexicans attempting to scare off Border Patrol agents in an attempt to illegally cross over into the U.S.
;)
ETA: Looks like a chain attached to the one on the right...
Kanye Wyoming
05-02-2019, 09:22 PM
Not the first tigers found in the Rio Grande Valley, though the first I recall living in the wild:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/animalia/wp/2018/05/01/federal-agents-peered-into-a-duffel-bag-on-the-mexico-border-they-found-a-tiger-cub/?utm_term=.4e0ae1965181
And a decade ago, six tiger cubs were recovered from an attempted sale at a Walmart parking lot, also in Brownsville. They appeared to be southbound for Mexico, local media reported at the time.
Dang. They aren’t kidding when they say the most dangerous place in America is a Walmart parking lot.
Joe in PNG
05-02-2019, 10:02 PM
Let's see... tigers are endangered, and people crossing the border illegally are a problem...
I think I see a way to solve both problems here.
These two were from a private zoo on the S side...I guess kinda like Escobar’s Hippos? It was just up river from A.Park (very busy park on both sides of the river and a very active smuggling spot) in my old AOR. They looked to be chained up and were allowed to “play” in the Rio Grande...with seemingly no one around when our boats rolled by. The area just N of where they were spotted was a notorious area for Dope and human smuggling...one of the weirder things that happened while I was down there...but not the weirdest.
Migrant Facing Charges for Falsely Claiming to be Parent
https://www.krgv.com/news/migrant-facing-charges-for-falsely-claiming-to-be-parent?fbclid=IwAR0-aRt3r_CuM80z5psSINykO8Kx4zMI4ZdRN-EUtvVIpfaaQ2vNuPdufR0
We need more prosecutions like this and we need to publicize this as much as possible.
https://www.ksat.com/news/crisis-on-the-border/funding-in-works-for-100-new-immigration-judges
Funding in works for 100 new immigration judges
Funding pending approval of Congress in 2020 budget
SAN ANTONIO - An additional 100 immigration judges are in the works to help 424 judges already facing a staggering backlog of more than 892,000 cases, according to Transactional Records Access Clearinghouse, a nonpartisan resource for federal enforcement, staffing and spending.
Cuellar said the average wait time has been about two years. In many cases, it can take up to six years or longer, said Sara Ramey, an immigration attorney and executive director of the Migrant Center for Human Rights.
Ramey said 100 more judges would help significantly. However, she said, "I don't think it's going to completely remedy the issue."
She said at least 500 more judges more are needed, given the new arrivals at the border that number in the thousands.
Ramey said the government quota for judges to close out 700 cases a year only adds to the stress of hearing often tragic stories by those asking for asylum.
Cool.
I read BPAs are supposed to be getting some sort of adjudication authority for asylum claims. Can you explain what exactly is going on there, and whether it's still in the works or not?
Hopefully it would be a synergistic effect with the 100 new judges and make an actual dent.
Cool.
I read BPAs are supposed to be getting some sort of adjudication authority for asylum claims. Can you explain what exactly is going on there, and whether it's still in the works or not?
Hopefully it would be a synergistic effect with the 100 new judges and make an actual dent.
Basically they want make the admin changes to give BPA’s the authority to do initial credible fear fear interviews currently done by Asylum officers who are USCIS employees.
Because of the combined structure of the old INS and the way Title 8 USC is written, anyone with title 8 authority has the statutory as an “Immigration Officer” - the devil is in the details, in this case in the CFRs and the admin policy memos implementing the CFRs. Theoretically, as far as Title 8 is concerned, ICE and CBP can do any of the adjudications work done by USCIS and USCIS could be armed and trained to make arrests.
On factor is there’ are many, many times more BPAs than asylum officers.
Most border apprehensions are subject to expedited removal (ER) without seeing an immigration judge - one of the reforms of the 1996 Immigration Act the last time we were getting swamped at the border. However, since the U.S. is a signatory to the UN Convention Against Torture (CAT) if an alien in Expedited removal proceedings claims fear of return to their country they must be referred for a “credible fear” interview. If the alien is found credible, the expedited removal order is cancelled and they are placed in regular removal proceedings before an Immigration Judge. If the are found not credible, and they want to contest the decision, the still go to the judge but only for a “limited review” in which the judge solely affirms or denies the negative finding re: credible fear. If the judge affirms, they are removed per the ER order. If the judges denies and overturns the negative finding the alien is placed in regular removal proceedings.
The aliens know this, and know it leads to relaxes due to lack of detention space, just like they know to rent children and claim to be a family. They are playing the system and the system is 5 to 10 years behind.
The problem with USCIS is their senior management and about half the staff think the aliens are their customers and pleasing the aliens is the goal instead of the American people being their customers and protecting the US by screening out the bad actors. There are too few asylum officers and the USCI system in general is rigged to encourage approvals rather than denials. As a result 80% percent of those claiming fear are found “credible,” passing the buck and clogging an already overburdened immigration court system.
I do agree with the attorney quoted in the article. 100 judges is a good start but at this point, you will need more like 500 additional judges to make a real dent.
There is a pilot class being cross trained right now to do credible fear interviews from what I’m hearing...I guess we’ll see how it works out soon.
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