Open Carry Hypothetical

[digiadaamore]

Hey guys, ive always been a concealed carry guy because of all the well known and discussed tactical and otherwise benefits, ive never been able to understand why anyone would open carry when they could get a ccw. My questions is if you didnt have that choice, if you had the choice between open carry or no carry, would you open carry? now im not talking about the usual activist wackos with a walmart nylon holster, im talking about a highly trained and skilled shooter, someone like us using a proper setup(safariland retention holster, duty belt etc...) would open carry be worse than no carry? i understand the tactical disadvantages that open carry comes with, but are those disadvantages greater than the disadvantage of not having your firearm? im interested in getting some highly informed individuals opinions on whether open carry would be worth it in that situation

[The Dreaming Tree]

My question would be this:

What disadvantages do you speak of? Faster draw time? Psychological deterrence?

I don't mean to bash you, but there is a stigma against Open Carry that doesn't really make sense. Yes, while you are far more prone to harassment from the local police, you are less likely to be victimized by crime, or, if the weapon is needed, your draw speed would be significantly improved.

Preferably? Concealed Carry any day of the week. However, compared to being an unarmed sheep? I'll Open Carry until the proverbial cows come home.

[jetfire]

you are less likely to be victimized by crime,

In the words of wikipedia: "citation needed".


If I lived in a place where the open display of firearms was accepted and common, I'd open carry because I'm lazy and I have dressing around the gun. I don't, and since I don't believe that openly carrying a gun is a magic "no badguys" talisman, I'll continue to carry concealed.

[joshs]

Since we've recently discussed the advantages and disadvantages of open carry compared to concealed carry, please try to stay on the topic of whether open carry is a good idea when concealed carry is not an option.

[F-Trooper05]

No I wouldn't unless I had a good reason to. Even here in AK where open carry is probably more common than any other state, I still hate doing it. And on the handful of occations that I've done it (mostly when I'm fishing/backpacking), I wasn't oblivious to the fact that everyone within eye shot was staring at me. I feel much more comfortable being unarmed and unnoticed, then armed and the center of attention.

[The Dreaming Tree]

In the words of wikipedia: "citation needed".


If I lived in a place where the open display of firearms was accepted and common, I'd open carry because I'm lazy and I have dressing around the gun. I don't, and since I don't believe that openly carrying a gun is a magic "no badguys" talisman, I'll continue to carry concealed.

I never meant to imply that open carry was a magic cure-all for crime; however, strictly psychologically speaking, crime is designed to be fast and efficient. The risk/reward balance must be skewed substantially toward the reward for most of the crime that occurs today. There are very few criminals "for the sake of evil".

Openly presenting a firearm has the exact same effects as being a large, muscular male: deterrence. The more items you stack in the risk column, the higher the stakes become, and the less likely it is you will be victimized. Now, that doesn't make you immune: anything can happen. But, preparedness has benefits.


No I wouldn't unless I had a good reason to. Even here in AK where open carry is probably more common than any other state, I still hate doing it. And on the handful of occations that I've done it (mostly when I'm fishing/backpacking), I wasn't oblivious to the fact that everyone within eye shot was staring at me. I feel much more comfortable being unarmed and unnoticed, then armed and the center of attention.

That's called the Spotlight Effect. There have been hundreds of studies showing that the perceived attention vs. the actual attention given was off by hundreds of percents. Now, have they tried it with a gun? Probably not. But, studies have shown it's nowhere near as bad as you think it is.

[Johnkard]

I live in a place with a near zero crime rate, and carry concealed most of the time.

Ironically, I almost never have time to change out of my range platform after long shoots before I rush back into town. The result? I usually open carry 4 topped off 15 round mags in full Limited gear through my first few outings after I get back and I definitely get some funny looks, (my last visit to Chipotle was particularly memorable, what with the business clogged by naive wide eyed suburbanites, largely in denial about the fact that I was carrying 5 rounds for every patron). If I had no choice, I would definitely carry this way all the time. I pay attention to my surroundings, I know how to retain my weapon, and my limited gear is my most comfortable shooting platform i.e. i'm not likely to make silly mistakes or fumble my reloads in a life or death situation. Frankly I enjoy the extra attention especially if it helps to keep people more aware of firearms in general and I have a personality that flourishes under scrutiny.

Do I prefer the tactical advantage and low profile associated with concealed carry? Yes.

Mainly because it allows me to be more choosy about when and how I draw my weapon. I don't ever want to live or die based on a quick draw and being the instant focus of a bad guy's attention upon entering a room is a bad way to achieve that ideal.

[derekb]

If I was disallowed from carrying concealed, but could carry openly, I would.

I spend the vast majority of my time disallowed from carrying at all, so any improvement to that situation would be wonderful.

[TCinVA]

Having a gun if you need it is always better than not having a gun if you need it.

[Tamara]

If I was disallowed from carrying concealed, but could carry openly, I would.

^This.

A lot would depend on the definition of "open", too. Years of observation suggest that very few people will really notice a 1911 against a dark shirt snugged in in a good IWB holster at about 3:15 or so.

[JV_]

Years of observation suggest that very few people will really notice a 1911 against a dark shirt snugged in in a good IWB holster at about 3:15 or so.Can "hidden in plain sight" be construed as concealed?

Is the grip of a J-Frame sticking out of a front pocket still open carry? That seems vastly different than a Taurus or an XD worn in a drop leg holster.

[TCinVA]

Can "hidden in plain sight" be construed as concealed?

Depends on the cop who pulls you over.

"Concealed" as defined by statute and the application of statute by the judiciary would come into play. In Virginia I think it's "hidden from common observation" in the code. I'm sure appeals courts have made rulings on what "hidden from common observation" means, but I can't quote any offhand.

...but speaking of "hidden in plain sight", I tend to color coordinate. Mostly because I'm just that fashionable, but also partially because a black gun carried in a black holster against a black t-shirt tends to be almost invisible to people who aren't paying attention. I do the same with the belt, as a black holster loop over a black belt is harder to make out with a quick glance if I have to raise my hands or something and potentially expose the belt line. So is a black-handled/sheathed fixed blade knife. With all of that black on black going on it disguises the silhouette of my implements of mayhem and makes it unlikely that anyone but the most keen of observers will note that they are there.

And now you know the reason for my t-shirt preferences. :D



Is the grip of a J-Frame sticking out of a front pocket still open carry? There are various levels of open carry.

Agreed. I'd use the bare minimum exposure that I was forced to use by statute or jurisprudence. If I could get away with just the butt of the J frame sticking out I'd do the color coordination thing and nobody would notice.

[CCT125US]

Durring a recent CHL class we were putting on, my father wore a SP101 in a cross draw OWB. This was at an Amish restaurant and no one noticed all day. At least if they did they gave no indication. Not even the young kids noticed. People are not very observant in general. With the choice of no gun or OC I would OC. The problem is those that would notice are those looking for a gun. And that can mean attention from bad people or those that want to talk about your choice in sights or "clip" capacity.

[David Armstrong]

Durring a recent CHL class we were putting on, my father wore a SP101 in a cross draw OWB. This was at an Amish restaurant and no one noticed all day. At least if they did they gave no indication. Not even the young kids noticed. People are not very observant in general. With the choice of no gun or OC I would OC. The problem is those that would notice are those looking for a gun. And that can mean attention from bad people or those that want to talk about your choice in sights or "clip" capacity.
I'd agree with the idea that it depends on where you are, but in general folks just don't pay that much attention to things and if they do it really doesn't matter to most of them. We are an OC state where it isn't practiced much, but every so often somebody does the Wal-Mart walk OC and that doesn't seem to attract any unusual stares or attention.

[GooberTim]

Yes. And I can't think of a reason why anyone, especially those here, would think not, assuming the previously stated criteria (appropriate kit) were followed.

[Mr_White]

Looks like my views are similar to most here.

OC is very rare for me, but when it’s that or no gun, I OC.

Several years ago I had to go to Nevada and didn’t have any concealed carry license honored in that state.

I made a plan and it worked out well.

I called the PD of the town I was going to be in to confirm that OC was legal in their jurisdiction. They affirmed, and I wrote down the date and time of the call and the name of the officer I spoke with.

When I was there, I made sure to shave every day (which I often don’t), had a recent haircut, and wore collared shirts.

Same as others, I ran a black gun in a black IWB, unconcealed, with a black tucked-in collared shirt underneath it.

I made sure to smile and be very polite to everyone I interacted with. I tried to keep my gun side away from other people as much as I could without acting strangely.

I paid really close attention to my surroundings and the people near me. Frankly, it was rather exhausting.

I was mistaken for a cop twice, once in a mini-mart and once in a tattoo shop.

The whole time I was really, really uncomfortable with my gun being unconcealed, and wished I could have carried concealed, but was also very happy that I was able to legally carry a gun.

[digiadaamore]

Ok guys im really liking the opinions voiced here and finding them similar to my own. color coordinating for sure, black belt black safariland black gun, and a black polo. i am interested in the thought of wearing my iwb with my shirt tucked behind the gun but i always thought that would be considered attempting to conceal the gun? i can say ive worn my gun around the house like that and it is pretty much invisible

[Shellback]

My questions is if you didnt have that choice, if you had the choice between open carry or no carry, would you open carry?

Absolutely. If I don't have the choice, I'm assuming others don't as well, there'd probably be quite a few more people doing it and it wouldn't be as big of a deal.

I've OC'ed a 5" 1911 on a couple of occasions coming back from shooting. The vast majority of people are oblivious to everything around them.

[Tamara]

i am interested in the thought of wearing my iwb with my shirt tucked behind the gun but i always thought that would be considered attempting to conceal the gun?

It may be considered concealed in your jurisdiction. I'd recommend talking to a local lawyer who's hip with Second Amendment issues before taking the word of a bunch of invisible people inside your computer. (Even if we are all very smart. And good-looking. But it won't be us going to jail... ;) )

[GooberTim]

I called the PD of the town I was going to be in to confirm that OC was legal in their jurisdiction. They affirmed, and I wrote down the date and time of the call and the name of the officer I spoke with.

Although you went to great lengths to CYA, I would recommend verifying what a LEO tells you is actually correct. In my experience, they are wrong much of the time - sometimes even in the favor of citizens.

Here in Marietta, Ga., the city police dept conduct a "firearms for dummies" type of seminar a couple times a year. This is done by their firearms instructor and the officer who keeps the force up to date vis-a-vis citizen right to carry laws. The seminar covers a lot of ground in a very short amount of time, and for the most part, was very thorough and informative. Especially for folks who knew virtually nothing about guns or gun laws. And they made it very obvious that they were very supportive of citizens owning and carrying firearms for protection.

However, they informed the audience of about 200 residents that OC was legal in Georgia, and that you only need a license to CC. This is totally wrong and puts residents at risk once they leave the friendly confines of Marietta. A weapons carry license is required in Ga to carry outside your property, vehicle or place of business, unless you are among the few on the exempt list.

[Mr_White]

Although you went to great lengths to CYA, I would recommend verifying what a LEO tells you is actually correct. In my experience, they are wrong much of the time - sometimes even in the favor of citizens.


I should have said that I had already researched Nevada law on open carry before I called the PD. The call to them was more to verify that they agreed with my interpretation of it.

[The Dreaming Tree]

Ok guys im really liking the opinions voiced here and finding them similar to my own. color coordinating for sure, black belt black safariland black gun, and a black polo. i am interested in the thought of wearing my iwb with my shirt tucked behind the gun but i always thought that would be considered attempting to conceal the gun? i can say ive worn my gun around the house like that and it is pretty much invisible


It may be considered concealed in your jurisdiction. I'd recommend talking to a local lawyer who's hip with Second Amendment issues before taking the word of a bunch of invisible people inside your computer. (Even if we are all very smart. And good-looking. But it won't be us going to jail... ;) )

Agreed. Here in Nevada, anything hidden is considered concealed. I once OC'd with a large sweatshirt, and, much to my dismay, as soon as I raised my hands it would fall over the gun. I had to make sure that it never once did; Metro's very uptight about it.

[Shellback]

Agreed. Here in Nevada, anything hidden is considered concealed. I once OC'd with a large sweatshirt, and, much to my dismay, as soon as I raised my hands it would fall over the gun. I had to make sure that it never once did; Metro's very uptight about it.

The wording is definitely up for debate and how it's written is very open to interpretation. Wearing IWB with your shirt tucked in with the butt hanging out would seem to be within the law. Nevada also has open carry and it's permitted everywhere CCW is to the best of my knowledge.

NRS 202.3653 1. “Concealed firearm” means a loaded or unloaded pistol, revolver or other firearm which is carried upon a person in such a manner as not to be discernible by ordinary observation.

[The Dreaming Tree]

The wording is definitely up for debate and how it's written is very open to interpretation. Wearing IWB with your shirt tucked in with the butt hanging out would seem to be within the law. Nevada also has open carry and it's permitted everywhere CCW is to the best of my knowledge.

NRS 202.3653 1. “Concealed firearm” means a loaded or unloaded pistol, revolver or other firearm which is carried upon a person in such a manner as not to be discernible by ordinary observation.

Agreed on the wording. Here in Vegas, it's much more liberal than further north in Reno, etc. There are some OC'ers that will do the Strip, but that's asking for trouble. It seems the closer to downtown you get, the tenser Metro gets. I can understand why (my dad and uncle are police here), though.

[ErnieB]

Having worn a gun openly for work for some years here are my observations on the pro's and cons:

1. Everyone notices you are wearing a gun... both good and bad guys. Take it for what it's worth.
2. Bad guys see it as an opportunity and are not intimidated by the fact that you are carrying. Example: Carrying openly, I entered a convenience store that I frequented daily that was adjacent to our facility. I walk in, scan the place en route the grab a few bottles of water for my staff. I see a guy that I notice is noticing me and particularly my gun. While in line to check out he says to me "what would you do if I went for you gun and tried to shoot you?" This incident could have gone south quickly. Had I been carrying concealed I would not have drawn attention to myself and the incident most likely would have never occurred.
3. Every situation is different. Sometimes being overt and presenting a hard target may deter those from doing bad things OR maybe not... Most often I would rather be the gray man and be the guy who you would never suspect has the hardware and the ability to solve a deadly force problem with extreme violence and prejudice. I no longer wear any gun logo clothing or anything that would draw attention to me as a gun owner. Honestly, I kinda like jeans and a pair of old school black and white checkered VAN's slip ons like the ones I bought when I was a BMX'ing kid in the early 80's.
4. While working at a facility that had A LOT of machine guns available for demo, we were often probed by gangs to see how hard of a target we posed during business hours. One particular incident come to mind in which 7 or 8 Crips entered the business and were counting employees and calling the numbers and camera locations to two vehicles full of their buddies parked across the street. Every staff member was carrying openly and on that particular day we had 18-19 guys on staff. I called them all onto the floor and asked them to look busy helping customers while being aware of the fact that we were being probed. 18-19 guys carrying guns makes for a very hard target and on this day, in my opinion, we avoided being robbed by a simple and discreet show of force. If they were going to rob us perhaps trying after hours might be a better decision than running the risk of an incident. Another business was robbed within 24 hours by a group fitting the description of the guys that probed us. That business was manned by only one non-gun carrying employee. He was beaten severely and 20 or so guns were stolen.

[Tamara]

Having worn a gun openly for work for some years here are my observations on the pro's and cons:

Dude, those sound like some pretty rough facilities you worked at. :eek:

[ErnieB]

Tamara,

Nah... it wasn't a high speed job or anything like that but I did manage two large high volume indoor shooting facilities in Las Vegas. I'm sure you can imagine we got the full spectrum of clientele.

[dookie1481]

I know where Ernie worked, and it is not in a nice area. In fact, not a single gun store in Vegas seems to be in a nice area.