Support thumb pressure

[ArgentFix]

I recently cut my left thumb while cooking, which I'm even worse at than shooting. Last session with my P320 I was "babying" this thumb, not touching the frame at all. It normally rests against the takedown lever. This time my shots broke down and left at any pace but very slow. Am I relying too much on lateral pressure from my support thumb to stabilize the gun? How much, if any, pressure is normal here?

[ASH556]

I recently cut my left thumb while cooking, which I'm even worse at than shooting. Last session with my P320 I was "babying" this thumb, not touching the frame at all. It normally rests against the takedown lever. This time my shots broke down and left at any pace but very slow. Am I relying too much on lateral pressure from my support thumb to stabilize the gun? How much, if any, pressure is normal here?

Yes, you are, or have been. You can impart forces with your grip to mask trigger pull issues. Heck, some even teach this. Support hand clamp force should be fingertips to palm. The thumbs should have minimal if any at all involvement in the grip.

[Yute]

Out of curiosity is it "wrong" to have support thumb pressure on the frame?

I shoot exclusively Glocks and have smallish hands; even with the "more trigger finger" technique I still have a leftward bias which is especially prominent at 15+ yards and at speed. I have been experimenting with support thumb pressure and it appears to be working well for me. Is there any downside to support thumb pressure against the frame?

[spinmove_]

Out of curiosity is it "wrong" to have support thumb pressure on the frame?

I shoot exclusively Glocks and have smallish hands; even with the "more trigger finger" technique I still have a leftward bias which is especially prominent at 15+ yards and at speed. I have been experimenting with support thumb pressure and it appears to be working well for me. Is there any downside to support thumb pressure against the frame?

In your case, yes, it would probably be bad because it would probably mask some latent trigger control issues you have. Work out your trigger control issues and then revisit the prospect of using your support hand thumb.

A lot of people don’t exert pressure with their support hand thumb. Some do. Those that do, do it to help manage recoil, not prevent themselves from shooting left or right as the case may be.

Shooting left or low-left is commonly indicative of sympathetic movement or pre-ignition push/flinch. It’s obviously happening because the target tells you such. Figure out which it is and correct it. If it’s sympathetic movement, HONEST dryfire will reveal it and help fix it. If it’s pre-ignition push/flinch, more live fire and “normalizing” the explosion happening in your hands will fix it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[EMC]

Kyle Defoor thinks it's ok to rest the "other strong" thumb on the frame:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcVHykd3zTU

Go to about 1:40 mark where he discusses this.

[JohnO]

It is not a question of is it OK or is it masking something you are doing wrong. At this point in time you have altered what you normally do. You need to adapt and overcome. If that means cleaning up your trigger press so be it.

I would recommend taking this time and dedicate it to SHO. When you go back to Freestyle the benefits will be apparent. Plenty of SHO dry fire then verify periodically with live rounds. During the dry fire you need to be hyper-critical of every nuance of your trigger press, hard focus on your sights before, during & after the trigger break.

[Cypher]

With this target

https://i.postimg.cc/SRj8BWfw/20190506-080845.jpg (https://postimg.cc/2LRVvLJw)

If I aim at the X I consistently hit between the 7 and the 8 on the left. No up or down just Left. If I aim at the 8 on the Right I consistently hit the bullseye. Maybe not exactly the X but in the ring. I can literally reproduce it all day long so I don't think I'm jerking the trigger on flinching.
It doesn't matter which of my Glocks (19/26) I'm shooting the results are the same.

This target

https://i.postimg.cc/5N8WJJtV/20171201-103608.jpg (https://postimg.cc/w7xG5SJf)

Was shot with my 4006. As you can see even if its not a great group there's no Left or Right deviation
It seems I only pull to the left with the Glocks.

I said all that to say that when I consciously put pressure on the slide with my support thumb the problem goes away. I can't figure out what I'm doing wrong to save my life.

Any input would be greatly appreciated

[Wendell]

Yes, you are, or have been. You can impart forces with your grip to mask trigger pull issues. Heck, some even teach this. Support hand clamp force should be fingertips to palm. The thumbs should have minimal if any at all involvement in the grip.

With 781 views, here is the best (worst) example of this that I have ever seen:

(Starting at 07:25)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muSOG6am6OM

[ArgentFix]

In my case, I was doing what ASH556 and spinmove_ describe: applyling an up-and-out force to the frame with my support thumb to counteract a down-and-in force from my trigger pull. This explains why I can shoot small holes in slow fire all day, but with any speed my shots err low-left. Even if I am not flinching / compensating for recoil, my support thumb can't supply consistent pressure at speed to counteract my bad trigger pull.

I'm experimenting with thumbs not touching the frame and a trigger pull that FEELS "up and out", which in reality is probably closer to a straight-back pull. It works just as well slow, but I continue to work on my consistency at speed.

[ArgentFix]

With 781 views, here is the best (worst) example of this that I have ever seen:

(Starting at 07:25)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muSOG6am6OM

I fail to see what this has to do with support pressure on the frame...

[runcible]

I teach heavy support-hand thumb pressure onto the frame, and significantly further forward than most. I don't think you were applying too much lateral pressure, as you describe things; quite the contrary.

If you're deviating shots towards the support side in the absence of support-hand thumb pressure, were I you I would re-proof my trigger-finger relief; most likely looking at getting a little bit less finger on the trigger and rotating the entire shooting hand clockwise around the grip sufficient to achieve that goal.

Disengaging one or both thumbs has not proofed out well in my observation, and usually allows the weapon to roll or turn within the shooting grip both as the trigger is pressed and while recoil is happening; but your mileage may vary.

[txdpd]

I recently cut my left thumb while cooking

The real answer here should be pretty obvious, don't cut yourself while cooking.

You know that you shooting left because you just took pressure off the frame with your thumb? How do you know that your not opening your support hand and inadvertently apply pressure with you support hand fingers and turning everything to the left? How do you know that your thenar emimnance (meaty part of the hand at the base of thumb) of you support hand doesn't normally press against the shooting hand or grip and counteract leftward motion by the support hand? This could all be mind games you're playing with yourself.

You got injured doing something unrelated to shooting, I understand that it affects your shooting, but it wasn't caused by shooting. Wait until your healthy, because you could be dicking with something that isn't broken. It's not a good time to run self diagnostics and figure things out.

[nwhpfan]

I recently cut my left thumb while cooking, which I'm even worse at than shooting. Last session with my P320 I was "babying" this thumb, not touching the frame at all. It normally rests against the takedown lever. This time my shots broke down and left at any pace but very slow. Am I relying too much on lateral pressure from my support thumb to stabilize the gun? How much, if any, pressure is normal here?

I put my thumb on that big area of a Glock. I put skateboard tape there on my GSSF guns since I don't worry about drawing them. If I shot a 1911 I would want one wtih a rail. I don't think about pushing it in or focus on the grip there. I think of my hands as a clamp and focus on what my grip makes the gun do. I think having the thumb there puts more hands on the gun...



Out of curiosity is it "wrong" to have support thumb pressure on the frame?

I shoot exclusively Glocks and have smallish hands; even with the "more trigger finger" technique I still have a leftward bias which is especially prominent at 15+ yards and at speed. I have been experimenting with support thumb pressure and it appears to be working well for me. Is there any downside to support thumb pressure against the frame?

I don't think it's wrong but I don't think that's "where its at." You want to isolate your trigger pull from your grip, which should be very strong. This way you don't steer the gun away from your intended impact point as you apply input and forces on the gun from pulling the trigger. And second your grip would control recoil to a predictable rise and return (or close enough) so you can shoot again.

So, grip very tight and fire many rounds. Awareness, evaluate, adjust or repeat accordingly. Ask yourself and be in search of that grip that allows you to shoot very fast and accurate... the one where the gun goes up and comes back and you can fire again, and again, accurately. If it falls apart at 15, ask yourself why and apply an adjustment to see if you can change the result. Move in to 10 yards, them move out, etc.

[Surf]

It's neither right or wrong at this point regarding the execution and results. It is simply something different than what you normally do and your results are skewed from an altered technique.

Now, which technique is more correct? I don't think there is a singular answer here either.

[03RN]

I think the biggest problem is consistency. Just how hard are you pressing?

[EMC]

I think the biggest problem is consistency. Just how hard are you pressing?Reminds me of the old thinking of grip pressure in terms of percentage ratio between support hand and strong hand. So long as sights aren't moving on trigger press perhaps amount of pressure is irrelevant.

[randyflycaster]

I am surprised to see where he places his strong-hand thumb. I tried that and it really worked for me. But when I asked about it on this forum I was strongly advised not to do that, as the slide sliding backwards might cut my thumb.

Randy

[Bart Carter]

If you hold your pistol still, the trigger press is the problem. A few thoughts:


Isolation - Only the trigger moves
Direction - Pull straight back
Effort - Just enough, don't use a 6 lb pull on a 4 lb trigger
Speed - Shoot as fast as you can hold still
Movement - Press at a constant speed

[randyflycaster]

This is the thumb grip I am referring to. It is demonstrated about 1:40 into the video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcVHykd3zTU
I know that some revolver shooters use this kind of grip, but I never heard to a top pistol shooter using it.

Randy