NYT Article: Snowplow Parenting

[Joe in PNG]

From the New York Times:
How Parents Are Robbing Their Children of Adulthood (https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/16/style/snowplow-parenting-scandal.html)


In her practice, Dr. Levine said, she regularly sees college freshmen who “have had to come home from Emory or Brown because they don’t have the minimal kinds of adult skills that one needs to be in college.”

One came home because there was a rat in the dorm room. Some didn’t like their roommates. Others said it was too much work, and they had never learned independent study skills. One didn’t like to eat food with sauce. Her whole life, her parents had helped her avoid sauce, calling friends before going to their houses for dinner. At college, she didn’t know how to cope with the cafeteria options — covered in sauce.

“Here are parents who have spent 18 years grooming their kids with what they perceive as advantages, but they’re not,” Dr. Levine said.

Yes, it’s a parent’s job to support the children, and to use their adult wisdom to prepare for the future when their children aren’t mature enough to do so. That’s why parents hide certain toys from toddlers to avoid temper tantrums or take away a teenager’s car keys until he finishes his college applications.

If children have never faced an obstacle, what happens when they get into the real world?

[Alpha Sierra]

From the New York Times:
How Parents Are Robbing Their Children of Adulthood (https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/16/style/snowplow-parenting-scandal.html)

Find your future active shooters there

[Joe in PNG]

Part of growing up and becoming mature is the realization that the world does not revolve around you: human society did just fine without me, and it will keep going long after I leave.
Our society is insulating kids from coming to terms with that realization under the mistaken belief that all discomfort and failure are harmful.

[Darth_Uno]

See, I was raised that if you don't like someone's food then you STFU and eat it anyway. Because you are not the most important person there. Lesson being, sometimes you just have to do things you'd rather not; sometimes out of courtesy, sometimes out of necessity, either way nobody cares how much you like it.

That's why all those "adulting is hard" memes chap my ass. Being an adult is great. Maybe you just suck at being an adult.

[OlongJohnson]

So they finally get around to reading something from their own list of Notable Books, and then write it up as if it's their own idea...


A finalist for the 2018 National Book Critics Circle Award in Nonfiction

A New York Times Notable Book

Bloomberg Best Book of 2018 (https://www.amazon.com/Coddling-American-Mind-Intentions-Generation/dp/0735224897/)

[Hieronymous]

Is it any wonder these college kids so easily gravitate towards socialism? They have been primed to want a nanny state. Voting for personal responsibility can’t seem very appealing if you haven’t ever in your life experienced it.

[JFK]

It is a truly odd development in raising kids.

I distinctly remember my mother yelling ant my brothers and I to “go outside and don’t come home till it’s dark, or one of you is bleeding!”

We figured a lot of stuff out...

[Alpha Sierra]

It is a truly odd development in raising kids.

I distinctly remember my mother yelling ant my brothers and I to “go outside and don’t come home till it’s dark, or one of you is bleeding!”

We figured a lot of stuff out...

I remember one evening I did come back bleeding, bad enough to need 12 stitches on the backside of my knee.

Good times!

[JFK]

I remember one evening I did come back bleeding, bad enough to need 12 stitches on the backside of my knee.

Good times!

Did you get grounded?

[Glenn E. Meyer]

When I went to camp - 8 years old, there was a kid named Marty. He flipped out at breakfast because his OJ had pulp. He latter stabbed another kid with a pencil and was sent home.

Lesson - ban pulp and pencils.

Colleges need money - they sell the environment and luxuries. Parents expect the colleges to act as therapists for their kids as part of the price.

Yale, Harvard, Princeton, Amherst, Stanford, etc. - Our motto - The Rich Never Fail! The Elite Shall Rule Forever and Ever!

Despite that there are good kids who work hard and get good educations. However, marketing towards the money won't ever go away.

[Alpha Sierra]

Did you get grounded?

Hell no

[ralph]

When I went to camp - 8 years old, there was a kid named Marty. He flipped out at breakfast because his OJ had pulp. He latter stabbed another kid with a pencil and was sent home.

Lesson - ban pulp and pencils.

Colleges need money - they sell the environment and luxuries. Parents expect the colleges to act as therapists for their kids as part of the price.

Yale, Harvard, Princeton, Amherst, Stanford, etc. - Our motto - The Rich Never Fail! The Elite Shall Rule Forever and Ever!

Despite that there are good kids who work hard and get good educations. However, marketing towards the money won't ever go away.

Marketing towards the money CAN'T go away..it's all these places have left, they honestly can't say they offer an above average education, because they don't educate, they indoctrinate..

[Glenn E. Meyer]

That's not really true. It's an Internet cliche. Plenty of kids in the STEM fields who get solid educations in math, science, computer science, etc.

The Humanities have become more political. Depending on the social science field - you can get either. The hard edge of psychology/neuroscience or physical anthropology are solid disciplines. Business programs aren't dens of communism (haha).

Want to fix colleges, get rid of college manly sports that attract the more conservative fan base as well as the softer Humanities that lost disciplinary focus for activism.

Corruption from both sides of the aisle - don't forget it.

[Alpha Sierra]

Want to fix colleges, get rid of college manly sports that attract the more conservative fan base

The problem isn't the manly sports. It's the focus on making money from those manly sports.

Men will always find an outlet for their innate aggression. Society either gives them a positive outlets or they will find negative ones. But an outlet will be found.

[ralph]

That's not really true. It's an Internet cliche. Plenty of kids in the STEM fields who get solid educations in math, science, computer science, etc.

The Humanities have become more political. Depending on the social science field - you can get either. The hard edge of psychology/neuroscience or physical anthropology are solid disciplines. Business programs aren't dens of communism (haha).

Want to fix colleges, get rid of college manly sports that attract the more conservative fan base as well as the softer Humanities that lost disciplinary focus for activism.

Corruption from both sides of the aisle - don't forget it.

I have a better idea..want to fix colleges? Simple. Cut off the student loans..On the surface that may seem cruel, but really it's not, colleges all over the country look at the next group of students as a bunch of schmucks..waiting to be fleeced. You want to take this course, that's another $3000, student: "but I don't have $3000 college: go get a loan... and of course the Gov't is all too happy to load the kid up with debt, that all too often he'll never be able to pay back....by cutting off the loans, the most important thing this would do, is force colleges to compete, something they haven't had to do for 40 years, and by forcing them to compete with each other on titution, and everything else, several things would happen, titution would start dropping as it would be seeking a fair market price. Colleges heavily in debt, and heavily dependent on student loan debt to operate would fail and go out of business. Tenure, would also start falling by the wayside (and that's a good thing) nobody, and I don't care who you are, is so good you can't be replaced.. The students, in the summer, could do what kids like them did before, go get a job and try to help their parents who are mostly footing the bill, if they want a mostly free ride go enlist in the military for a few years.. But one thing is clear..this debt cycle has to be broken.. Another benefit is that colleges would be forced to tighten their belts, so, utterly worthless courses would start dissapearing, and the more solid, proven courses would stay, this means that very probably alot of commie professors would be looking for work, And, that really is a good thing..

[Alpha Sierra]

You want free college? Work your ass off in school to be good enough to be admitted to one of the five service academies. Guaranteed employment too.

[Totem Polar]

We just recieved a memo from the upper echelons at the state place, the gist of which was: "we need to cut 8 percent, and this fancy study we commissioned says that payroll is our number one cost..." as if this was some sort of surprise. Folks, there have been many articles in the MSM over the years tying rising tuition to administrative bloat. It’s been discussed here before. Currently, there are 4 admins for each classroom prof in USA higher ed. A large chunk of tuition is going towards those VP of diversity offices—each with a mini-hierarchy of employees—while an average of another 12-15 percent is going to service debt on building expansion. Tenure sure isn’t the problem: less than 26 percent of classroom profs are tenured, nationwide. This is by design: tenured faculty can vote and speak out against the sorts of activities driving costs, so there has been a concerted effort amongst the administrative class to reduce the lines by attrition.

As well, without tenure no way someone like Jordan Peterson would still have an academic job—not that he needs the money at this point. JMO, from inside the can.

Fastest way to reduce tuition would be to cut plump and unnecessary legs of admin.

[ralph]

We just recieved a memo from the upper echelons at the state place, the gist of which was: "we need to cut 8 percent, and this fancy study we commissioned says that payroll is our number one cost..." as if this was some sort of surprise. Folks, there have been many articles in the MSM over the years tying rising tuition to administrative bloat. It’s been discussed here before. Currently, there are 4 admins for each classroom prof in USA higher ed. A large chunk of tuition is going towards those VP of diversity offices—each with a mini-hierarchy of employees—while an average of another 12-15 percent is going to service debt on building expansion. Tenure sure isn’t the problem: less than 26 percent of classroom profs are tenured, nationwide. This is by design: tenured faculty can vote and speak out against the sorts of activities driving costs, so there has been a concerted effort amongst the administrative class to reduce the lines by attrition.

As well, without tenure no way someone like Jordan Peterson would still have an academic job—not that he needs the money at this point. JMO, from inside the can.

Fastest way to reduce tuition would be to cut plump and unnecessary legs of admin.

And, the fastest way to do that, would be to cut off the frieght train of studen loan money that comes rolling in every fall, one can't operate without the other, Cut off the endless debt flow, and watch how fast these colleges tune up, and cut costs. Forcing them to compete with each other for paying students, would be one of the best things thst could happen for the student.. He/She would get a higher education at a much more reasonable cost.

[Totem Polar]

And, the fastest way to do that, would be to cut off the frieght train of studen loan money that comes rolling in every fall, one can't operate without the other, Cut off the endless debt flow, and watch how fast these colleges tune up, and cut costs. Forcing them to compete with each other for paying students, would be one of the best things thst could happen for the student.. He/She would get a higher education at a much more reasonable cost.

Fair enough. There is no doubt that students are being encouraged to pile up more debt than many will be able to service.

[JAD]

Business programs aren't dens of communism (haha)..

That differs from my experience. Biz school is full of 'ethics' classes that teach complete nonsense and litigation avoidance, 'social responsibility' classes, etc. etc. Biz school is a perfect example of "those who can't do" teaching, and most of them are liberal washouts from the productive economy, who couldn't do it because they don't get it.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Not the two business departments I had acquaintance with. Fairly conservative and one had several vets with for real combat experience and one who did the kind of training with civilian folks of quality that we like here.

Of course, school vary. Sarah Lawerence had been having an uproar about teaching about free markets.

[rob_s]

I keep seeing this as a incremental increase in how protective we are of our children.

There was a time when you couldn't even really do much to protect your children from death.
Then you could protect them from death, but not really do much to protect them from serious bodily injury (i.e. maiming or dismemberment or disfigurement).
Then you could protect them from serious bodily injury but not "minor" injury (non-permanent injuries like stitches and broken bones).
Then you could protect them from minor injury, so in the absence of anything productive to protect them from you turned to protecting them from emotional hurt. (pretty sure this is around about the millenial generation)
Now we've graduated from protecting them from emotional hurt to protecting them from unhappiness or boredom from moment to moment.

I've regressed to the point that I'm only really interested in keeping my kids from permanent disfigurement and from winding up at 30 years old lying on a couch talking to some head shrinker and blaming me or their mom for everything.

Makes things a hell of a lot easier.

[trailrunner]

From my viewpoint as a parent in the affluent DC suburbs, a lot of the out-of-control costs of college could be blamed on parents. I was also funding some university work, so I got to see behind the scenes a little bit when I'd visit the schools for program reviews. Parents were not shopping and comparing schools based on cost, or even value, like you would for a car or computer -- if their kid wanted to go to a school, they would find a way to finance it, and if they didn't have the money, they'd take out loans. To attract the kids (and parents), the schools seemed to be in an arms race with each other for shiny new facilities and dorms, because that brings a big WOW! factor when they visit the school. The conversation on the drive home wasn't about the academics or the value, but rather on how cool was the new building with Starbucks and the cafeteria that serves kale, or the clean dorm rooms. But those shiny new facilities require a lot of capital, which the students (and parents) pay for in their tuition.

By contrast, when it was time for me to go to school, my E-9 dad and stay-at-home mom told me that I could go to any school I wanted -- as long as I lived at home, and as long as it was a state school. The thought of going away to college simply wasn't part of the equation. However, I wound up with a very good education, and zero debt.

[Joe in PNG]

To attract the kids (and parents), the schools seemed to be in an arms race with each other for shiny new facilities and dorms, because that brings a big WOW! factor when they visit the school. The conversation on the drive home wasn't about the academics or the value, but rather on how cool was the new building with Starbucks and the cafeteria that serves kale, or the clean dorm rooms. But those shiny new facilities require a lot of capital, which the students (and parents) pay for in their tuition.

Kids do tend to be attracted more to flash exteriors and cool styling over quality construction. Thus go-fast plastic on cars, and most future ex-wives.

[littlejerry]

And, the fastest way to do that, would be to cut off the frieght train of studen loan money that comes rolling in every fall, one can't operate without the other, Cut off the endless debt flow, and watch how fast these colleges tune up, and cut costs. Forcing them to compete with each other for paying students, would be one of the best things thst could happen for the student.. He/She would get a higher education at a much more reasonable cost.

Or allow student debt to be shed in bankruptcy. Lending isn't necessarily bad if everyone has skin in the game. You'd see loans proportional to real anticipated income which would help drive demand for useful degrees. Engineer = investment, Sociology = cash furnace

[Borderland]

Fair enough. There is no doubt that students are being encouraged to pile up more debt than many will be able to service.

I think a lot of parents are paying the debt. I know some who feel a personal responsibility to pay 100% of their kids tuition. Christ almighty, I was told to hit the road when I graduated from high school. My parents were just barely making ends meet as it was without financing my college education. I paid for my college with the GI bill and working odd jobs.

I guess times have changed.:(

[rob_s]

I can’t help but think that this kind of thing is also a direct result of the issue we are discussing.

https://www.protoolreviews.com/news/house-buyers-remorse-rising-for-millennials/44299/


The number one complaint from Millennial homebuyers is the cost of maintenance.

So basically, your parents were so busy keeping you happy and removing all of the obstacles from your so-called life that you didn’t even realize that it costs money to maintain a house?

[rob_s]

I’m also finding the college discussion interesting.

For one thing, I’ve been out of college for nearly 20 years (well, been out of grad school for 18, college for over 20) and about the only thing I know about college today is that you can’t compare it to college of even 5 years ago, let alone 10, 20, or more. That includes what the education was like, how you paid for it, etc.

That said, if you think it’s a waste or don’t like it, don’t go. Or don’t send your kids. This latest “scandal” is stirring up the anti-college hysteria again from a wide range of demographics, with all sorts of people calling for all sorts of reforms, and change.... meh. Don’t like it, don’t go.

Nobody ever died from not going to college.

[Stephanie B]

Nobody ever died from not going to college.
Slight quibble: Those old enough to remember General Hershey might disagree with that. But those days are long gone.

[mtnbkr]

I can’t help but think that this kind of thing is also a direct result of the issue we are discussing.

https://www.protoolreviews.com/news/house-buyers-remorse-rising-for-millennials/44299/



So basically, your parents were so busy keeping you happy and removing all of the obstacles from your so-called life that you didn’t even realize that it costs money to maintain a house?

Depends on the houses in question. I never saw my parents have to put in the work to maintain the homes they bought while I was living at home that I've needed to put into my newer home or the newer homes my friends and acquaintances have. It seems home built in the last 20-25 years are not as well made as those built more than 30 years ago, resulting in more effort taken to maintain them.

Chris

[mtnbkr]

I think a lot of parents are paying the debt. I know some who feel a personal responsibility to pay 100% of their kids tuition. Christ almighty, I was told to hit the road when I graduated from high school. My parents were just barely making ends meet as it was without financing my college education. I paid for my college with the GI bill and working odd jobs.

I guess times have changed.:(

I make a good living and am not struggling to make ends meet, but I've told both my girls that I will pay for the first two years as long as they acquire those first two years at a local community college (both have or will have prepaid coverage for those two years). Any education they pursue beyond that is officially up to them to fund via scholarships (both are good students and likely to get some performance-based assistance) or loans or other means. I've explained to the older one why it's important to decide on a degree path based on the likelihood of using that degree to get a job that will enable her to repay any debt accrued, using a relative who made that decision poorly as an object lesson.

Unofficially I will help them in any way I can, but they have to think they'll be responsible so they will make good choices. If they think they have a mommy-and-daddy-paid college education, it may color their choices or impact their motivation (probably not on the latter as both are self-motivated as their grades reflect).

Chris

[rob_s]

Slight quibble: Those old enough to remember General Hershey might disagree with that. But those days are long gone.

that's kind of an interesting point.

So maybe there's more than one reason to go to college...

which brings me to a concept that seems to be pretty controversial these days...

there's a reason that college costs money, health insurance costs money, etc. These should be perks and draws to people to improve their lot in life or to improve the status of their progeny.

Instead what I see is people that spend their child's lives going on vacations, paying $200/month for cable, buying a new-ish car every few years, and then complaining about the cost of college (or health insurance).

if we do what the left suggests, and just paste stars on the pain-bellies (presumably stars that are payed for by the current crop of star-bellies) regardless of whether they (or their ancestors or parents) have done anything to "earn" it, we strip away some of the incentive.

which brings us to another issue with removing obstacles from our childrens' lives: they have no idea what it means to work on something, fail, and still be driven to try again and succeed due to some sort of incentive.

Then they grow up and vote for Bernie because he promises them un-earned stars for their bellies that someone else worked for.

[Mntneer357]

To attract the kids (and parents), the schools seemed to be in an arms race with each other for shiny new facilities and dorms, because that brings a big WOW! factor when they visit the school. The conversation on the drive home wasn't about the academics or the value, but rather on how cool was the new building with Starbucks and the cafeteria that serves kale, or the clean dorm rooms. But those shiny new facilities require a lot of capital, which the students (and parents) pay for in their tuition.

This is absolutely what I see in the university city I live in. Universities add "amenities" and shiny things to attract kids. Locally, what they keep calling "student housing" keeps popping up all over. These shiny, very expensive alternatives to dorm living are part of the arms race because a.) College kids want only the best mommy and daddy's money can buy and b.) The university doesn't really want to be in the dorm business anymore.

Whichever poster said that college is less about education or value and more about "the experience" was spot-on. We're at the point when mummy and daddy are essentially sending Johnny/Janie off for a 5-6 year resort stay that may not end with much of anything productive. Then, somebody has with a mountain of debt and can only get a job driving for Jimmy John's, since after their 6 year resort stay, they came home with a super useful degree in 14th Century French Literature.

Fact is, college ISN'T for everybody. Parents need to, you know, actually PARENT. Why do you want to go to college? What are you going to DO with whatever degree you want? And universities need to not offer useless degree programs.

College is supposed to be hard. You're supposed to be a poor college kid during your time there. You know why?? To remind you and reinforce the idea that being poor sucks and you don't want to live like that the rest of your life.

[Chance]

I can fix half of academia's problems in two simple steps:

1) Stop coddling young people; and,

2) Stop telling all young people they should go to college.


I have a better idea..want to fix colleges? Simple. Cut off the student loans..

That's nonsense. You remove loans, you're going to make college inaccessible to large swaths of the population, especially folks barely making ends meet to begin with. Now, if you'd like discuss better assessment with regards to repayment of those loans, so that people wanting to major in underwater basket weaving are less likely to receive them, I'm open to that discussion.

You might say, "Capable students will get scholarships!" Well yeah, getting scholarships is easy. But if you're in a sufficiently challenging field, keeping them is not. Our math department's Calculus II course routinely has less than a 30% pass rate. That's *pass* rate, not "make a grade that keeps your scholarships" rate. You might be able to score well in that course, but all of your other classes are going to suffer, meaning your GPA is going to take a hit somewhere, and it is often a significant hit because this class is early in the degree program.

You might say, "Go to a community college!" I think that's an excellent idea and recommend such to literally everyone that asks me. But that's a little problematic, too. All of the courses that pad your GPA (English, art appreciation, and the other gen ed that you can score well in) are things you get out of the way at a community college. The problem is: your credit will transfer to a major university, but your GPA doesn't. So when you show up to a major university with Cal I already taken, you get dumped face-first into Cal II, your GPA takes a hit, and you lose your scholarships. I see every single freshman and transfer student that comes through this department (that's just under 2000 students at this point) and I've seen this happen more times than I can count.


To attract the kids (and parents), the schools seemed to be in an arms race with each other for shiny new facilities and dorms, because that brings a big WOW! factor when they visit the school. The conversation on the drive home wasn't about the academics or the value, but rather on how cool was the new building with Starbucks and the cafeteria that serves kale, or the clean dorm rooms. But those shiny new facilities require a lot of capital, which the students (and parents) pay for in their tuition.

Correct. Students want their universities to be all-expense-paid resorts and depressingly little attention to is paid to the actual quality of the academics. We have three full-service Starbucks here, and at least two more of the nook variety (that I'm aware of). That's a tangible thing students and parents can see. Our student-to-faculty ratio is one of the worst in the country, but that's largely abstract until you're already in the classroom.

[psalms144.1]

Since we've now morphed into what's wrong with colleges, I'll vent a little, at random:

-My first wife's parents told her they would pay for her college tuition, or they'd pay for her wedding. Choice of boys aside, she was pretty smart, and opted for college. I adopted that line with our daughter, and, on her 18th Bday, switched the direct deposit of her child support payment from her Mom's account to hers. She went to instate schools undergrad, where her tuition was negligible, CERTAINLY less than what I was paying. But, she NEEDED to live in an apartment, not the dorms, or at her Mom's house, because (due to her raising by her Mom, mostly), she's SPECIAL, and needs to feel that way. In fact, a small apartment wasn't good enough, she had to have a two bedroom apartment so the 2nd bedroom was her "study." Likewise, no cafeteria food for her, take out/fast food mostly, and at least three Starbucks a day. Add it all up, she graduated with about $30K in student debt because she opted to take student loans to pay for tuition/fees/books and use my support to live the "lifestyle" she wanted. "Whatevs" - now she's trying to pay it off - and I wish her the best of luck (I seriously do - she's FINALLY starting to understand finances after her Mom handed her everything growing up).

-The "college or wedding" plan extends to my younger daughter, who's 16. We're moving to IN this summer on orders, and, as luck would have it, as a disabled vet, the state will pay the tuition and fees for my kids after I've resided in-state for three years. Both she and her twin brother have a comfortable amount of money in a Texas Tomorrow Fund, but she's got her head on straight. She informed me the other day that she plans on doing her first year or two in community college, until the state funding kicks in, then finish up in one of the state universities in IN. Of note, she's lived with me and my current wife (25 year anniversary this summer, hopefully this one will stick) her whole life, and has a COMPLETELY different idea of what she's "entitled" to than her elder sibling.

-My older boy is attending UT San Antonio on a "Distinguished Presidential Scholarship," so he gets in-state tuition basically covered by the scholarship. He lives at my brother's house in King William in a garage apartment nicer than most of the houses I've lived in, so he's got it pretty good. You'd think we'd only be dipping into his Texas Tomorrow fund for books and sundries, but, you'd be wrong. We're shelling out THOUSANDS of dollars every semester to UTSA for FEES. Health unit fee (he's on my health insurance, and lives off campus with two MDs), sports facility fees (his only PT is running, which he does out in town around where he lives), internet fee for the wifi on campus (way more expensive than the top of the line internet we pay for through the Uber Expensive offerings on Long Island), cafeteria fees (he doesn't have a meal plan, but still has to pay to help with the costs of the various cafeterias?). I could go on and on and on. Frankly, I consider this a huge rip off, as none of these "services" are optional if un needed. I get that a kid living in on-campus dorm will likely use many/all of these services, but it's frustrating to have to pay to offset those other kids' costs...

[RevolverRob]

We're shelling out THOUSANDS of dollars every semester to UTSA for FEES.

They are not under the impression he is living on campus, are they? If he has ever lived in a dorm, they may be under the impression he is still living in the dorm.

Student Life Fees (basically cafeteria, gym, etc.) should run a couple of hundred a semester at most. At UT Austin, my typical fee bill was <$350/semester. Now, I can't say about the health insurance thing. Since ObamaCare kicked in, fees associated with health care have gone up exponentially. When I was in college, I had no health insurance, but we had a not free, but heavily-subsidized student health clinic that attended to virtually all of the needs of the students. There was a fee associated with that, but it was something like $100/semester + costs if services are used.

If one lived on campus, then fees were ridiculously high.

____

Back when I graduated from college, not even a decade ago, mind you, my tuition was $6,250/semester + ~$350 fees + Books. For the first two years, I lived off of my own savings, that I saved from working through high school for the family business. And then I got a part-time job and my parents sent me some cash every month to help cover the rent (and that's basically all it covered). I lived in a 425 square foot efficiency and drove a broke ass, beat to shit, 1991 Honda. I got scholarships, grants, and took loans to cover tuition and fees and bought used books whenever I could. I tried to never pay more than a few hundred for books. At the end, I graduated with <$25k in loan debt, with 1.2% interest (which only accrues when one starts paying it) and 10-years to pay it back (and it is deferred while I'm in grad school). That's less than the average car note in cost. I consider it a fair trade in terms of cost and effort, given where things have gone since then.

Without loans, I would not have been able to go to college. Which in turn means, I would not be in the career path I am currently in. And in turn means I wouldn't have met my wife (we met in college, in my first week of college, actually). And in turn means I wouldn't have the friends, connections, and networking I have today. The costs of college are high, but they have to be weighed against the benefits. Here is the secret to college:

If you take advantage of the benefits, the up front monetary costs are minimal. If you do not take advantage of the benefits, then you pissed the money away.

Now here is the dirty secret to college: They never tell you how to take advantage of the benefits.

Here is the benefit if you happened to be an individual who works with RevolverRob in college: I will tell and teach you how to take advantage of things.

The trouble with helicopter and snowplow parents is - they never taught their kids how to game the system. Everything we do is politics (defined as: who gets what, when, where, and how much) and if you're bad at politics, then college is of minimal help to you. If you're good at politics there is a lot to be gained.

___

Also if you couldn't make it at Brown you're a fucking pussy. They don't even give Fs at Brown. Seriously, no one fails at Brown, literally.

[JAD]

Without loans, I would not have been able to go to college. Which in turn means, I would not be in the career path I am currently in.

The world needs ditch diggers, Danny.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Many upscale schools sell the leisure / sports complex resort aspect of the campus. It is pure marketing. It reaches ridiculous justifications. One campus advertised its slow river to ameliorate the tension of school. A school representative (got to find the article) actually claimed that if UT Austin had a slow river that might have prevented Charles Whitman from his trip up to the top of the Texas Tower. His motivations are quite complex, as an aside - a mix of parenting, training and physiology.

School will attempt to portray an attitude of understanding their elite, wealthy core appeal by aiding poorer and minority kids. However, sometimes this is not to the psychological benefit of those kids as the more tuned in ones, know that they are being exploited for PR - see https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2019/03/privileged-poor-navigating-elite-university-life/585100/

I went to a commuter school whose entry was gained by pure grades and SATs. It was cheap in those days and I lived in my old room. My dad said I could if I stayed in school and made the grades - or get a job. After all, he still paid the same rent if I were there or not. I started college at 16 (brain type). At graduation, I went to grad school and any significant financial burden to my parents was over. Grad assistant ships and PT jobs, did it for me. Worked as FORTRAN progammer and SPSS analyst.

State school tuitions are increasing as state government financing is decreasing. My old school just bought a nearby luxury high rise to convert to apartments for guess who.

While it is great for kids to get into the trades if it works for them, we do need to supply affordable paths for those from less well off families to go into the sciences and the useful fields. I don't see any evidence that the rich and famous necessarily are more talented in those areas.

[45dotACP]

Ah college...hated it.


My parents said "we can give you some help with tuition...but not much". My other 5 siblings are college educated. They got the same offer. How my parents aren't poor is beyond me.

This meant I worked in high school for minimum wage, studied hard, saved up got good grades, did the community college thing, picked up a job as a hospital tech that paid substantially better than min wage, then hooked into the school near me with the best NCLEX pass rates. Problem was it was private, so costs were higher.

I got decent scholarship money, commuted to school, got involved in clubs, associations and committees and worked 32 hours a week. Added on nursing school clinicals for an additional 8-16 hours a week, pretended to study for the rest and graduated with some student debt.

Been debt free for a while now, bought my first car and paid it off quickly with my first RN job. Saving for a house. Have some cool guns, and a membership at a BJJ academy.

Basically college sucked. Being an adult however, is badass. I'm about to go to the AACNs NTI in Orlando on my hospital's dime, and get paid for the week at my bedside per diem for going to class and taking notes. Which is a hell of a lot better than paying money to learn shit.

College isn't meant to be "an experience". It's meant to be difficult and stressful. But if you can forgo your own comfort for a minute, then you can build skills, git gud and be a competitive and desirable asset to any future employer.

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[mtnbkr]

One campus advertised its slow river to ameliorate the tension of school. A school representative (got to find the article) actually claimed that if UT Austin had a slow river that might have prevented Charles Whitman from his trip up to the top of the Texas Tower.

You have got to be shitting me. Please tell me he got roasted for that statement.

I graduated in 1996 from small private school in NC and my "experience" was quite different. At the time, we didn't even have a traffic light in town. We were in the middle of nowhere and the running joke was that we all went to Walmart in a nearby town as our social outing. I lived on campus, ate in the cafeteria, got my BBA and MBA in one shot, got out, got a job, and haven't looked back.

Chris

[Glenn E. Meyer]

It was a 'her' that said that.

https://www.chronicle.com/article/The-Lure-of-the-Lazy-River/241434


From there, the case for the river grows ever more elaborate. The river, she says, might bridge divisions across diverse groups of students. So, too, it might offer the healing powers of recreation, she posits. Ms. Braden, unpacking that point, cites research suggesting that a denial of play may have been a contributing factor in Charles J. Whitman’s shooting spree, in 1966, from a perch on the clock tower at the University of Texas at Austin.

"He had a very scripted life, where there was no play involved," says Ms. Braden, drawing on the work of Stuart Brown, a psychiatrist and founder of the National Institute for Play.

So that's the college life nowadays, stop mass shootings by 'play'.

The causality suggested for Whitman were:

1. A really nasty abusive father. Whitman left a FU note for him along with killing his mom.
2. He was a Marine - that taught him to be a killer. Whether it was causal or just gave him skills - pick your politics to decide that. What do you expect?
3. He had a tumor near his amygdala, IIRC - which is a center of emotion control and that might have driven him. He left notes saying he knew his actions were going to be wrong but he was driven.

Know way to know the actual processes - just hindsight. However, we can be sure a lazy river would protect Amercia from rampages. I suggest that an AWB, also mandates lazy rivers for all.

[RevolverRob]

The world needs ditch diggers, Danny.

You know...I've dug ditches before. Quite a few. And I've crawled around under houses and in attics, and gotten covered in rockwool and fiberglass insulation, while sweating my ass off in 130-degree places. I've built houses and garages, and managed crews doing the same. I've done a lot of manual labor in my life. So much so, that at 33, I have beginnings of arthritis in both hands and none of my fingers are straight, a couple of them are crooked as fuck. And my knees hurt when it rains and it's cold...and do you know how long winter lasts in Chicago? A long time.

My point being, that I was a ditch digger. And I wanted to be something else and I've made my path in life and worked hard to be successful in it. I've put up with way more shit than one can actually imagine to make it this far and if it wasn't for student loans, I wouldn't have had the opportunity to do these things. Rather than build new buildings, I find and give new knowledge.

Yes, the world needs more ditch diggers and cooks and privates than it needs presidents, and officers, and engineers. That doesn't mean we should deny someone the ability to become an engineer or president or officer, by eliminating their financial means to being something besides a ditch digger. But then again, if you haven't had the pleasure of giving yourself a massive amount of debt to try to be better than the station you were born into, then you're probably either too privileged to get it, or too smug to admit that you want it.

The reason communism and socialism fails is because of the inexorable desire for humans to elevate themselves from survival to comfort. To have more than their fellow man and to have more than their antecedents.

College is one path to achieve that goal, but it's not an easy path, at least not anymore. It used to be easy, but that was back when they discriminated about who they let in. Let the serfs in and now you have to make it harder, because we can't have everyone being a senator or president. But the smart serfs figure it out and can get somewhere. The stupid ones flunk out. The privileged children of the world drink beer and party and eventually turn out to be stupid, but continue riding on the hard work of their antecedents, until they die of opioid overdoses or drunk driving accidents. Or luck out and talk themselves into some decent position, from which they can somehow manipulate things to their advantage (ahem*Trump*ahem).

If folks think Universities are getting rich on student loans, you need to stop watching Fox News and go find the financial reports for your local institutions. Here's a hint, if an institution is public all records are public. If an institution is private, a subset of those records are public, because they received federal grant dollars in some way shape or form. You will discover that most institutions are either in debt or are barely balancing to 0 (which is what they should do as non-profits). The money that pays for new buildings? Donor dollars. The money that pays for student health services? Grant overhead from the Physics department and maybe some Saturday football ticket sales. The money that pays for student housing? Donor dollars, and some tuition money. Etc. Tuition typically represents ~50% of university income and covers <40% of university costs. And I remind you that the bulk of tuition is not paid for, via student loans, but either out of pocket or through scholarships and grants.

In other words if you take away student loans you're not hurting the university's bottom line, just the students who need or want those loans to help them.

That's my way of saying, you can have my student loans, when you pry them from my cold dead fingers. I took them, I'm responsible for them, even bankruptcy can't relieve me of that debtor's responsibility. So what does it fucking matter to you? Or to anyone, else? The world needs ditch diggers, it also needs people to tell folks to shut the fuck up with that shit and live and let live.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Smaller private and state schools are in financial trouble. The large donations from the millionaire, billionaire class have been found to go to the already well funded and endowed super rich schools. I think, that most of those are driven by ego. A truly altruistic donation would be given anonymously without the parade and having your head be made into a bas relief to be stuck on the building with your name.

[Totem Polar]

Or allow student debt to be shed in bankruptcy. Lending isn't necessarily bad if everyone has skin in the game.

Student debt used to be dischargable, until Bill Clinton pushed for exempting student loans, IIRC.


Many upscale schools sell the leisure / sports complex resort aspect of the campus. It is pure marketing. It reaches ridiculous justifications. One campus advertised its slow river to ameliorate the tension of school. A school representative (got to find the article) actually claimed that if UT Austin had a slow river that might have prevented Charles Whitman from his trip up to the top of the Texas Tower. His motivations are quite complex, as an aside - a mix of parenting, training and physiology.


Reminds me of the opening amenity descriptions, here:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaeltnietzel/2018/11/05/students-begin-to-tap-the-brakes-on-the-campus-amenities-arms-race/#4ca1d3b21bcc

[Jeep]

Smaller private and state schools are in financial trouble. The large donations from the millionaire, billionaire class have been found to go to the already well funded and endowed super rich schools. I think, that most of those are driven by ego. A truly altruistic donation would be given anonymously without the parade and having your head be made into a bas relief to be stuck on the building with your name.

You mean that when you hit the lottery you won't be establishing a new "Glenn E. Meyer College of Competitive Pistolcraft and Dry Martinis" at a local state university? The name has a certain ring to it.

[JAD]

Yes, the world needs more ditch diggers and cooks and privates than it needs presidents, and officers, and engineers. That doesn't mean we should deny someone the ability to become an engineer or president or officer, by eliminating their financial means to being something besides a ditch digger. But then again, if you haven't had the pleasure of giving yourself a massive amount of debt to try to be better than the station you were born into, then you're probably either too privileged to get it, or too smug to admit that you want it.
Probably, I guess, but not at least in my case. I got my BA in three years on a merit scholarship. I worked two jobs and sold plasma, and the reason I pulled it off in three years is because that's how much I had saved up to cover living expenses beyond what my minimum wage jobs provided. My employer paid for my shittly little juco MBA, which took five years because a) I didn't really need it and b) I was putting in seventy hour weeks and traveling 80%. I did not require student loans, nor was i privelaged. I sure as fuck was smug.



that's my way of saying, you can have my student loans, when you pry them from my cold dead fingers. I took them, I'm responsible for them, even bankruptcy can't relieve me of that debtor's responsibility. So what does it fucking matter to you? Or to anyone, else? The world needs ditch diggers, it also needs people to tell folks to shut the fuck up with that shit and live and let live.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/prestoncooper2/2016/04/10/federal-student-loans-will-cost-taxpayers-170-billion/#1232013662a9

Getting cash for a losing bet -- which is what a student loan is, a bet that the borrower will actually use their college education to become a productive citizen and not only pay their capital but also their subsidized interest -- costs money. That money comes from somewhere. It is redistributed wealth -- my wealth, distributed to you, compulsorily. That's socialism.

[Jeep]

Student debt used to be dischargable, until Bill Clinton pushed for exempting student loans, IIRC.



It is really, really hard to justify the inability to discharge student loans in bankruptcy. Why should they be special?

The official reason is that making them impossible to discharge would drive down loan costs. The evidence behind that is . . . scarce. Obviously if people don't have money they won't pay the loan no matter what. The theory behind this provision was that this would force people to be more responsible about repayment, but again given the huge rate of student loan default one can doubt that.

If we changed the law, and allowed student loans to be discharged in bankruptcy (because, perhaps, debtors prisons and permanent debt are both foreign to our tradition), there would still be student loans but the terms would get tougher, and colleges would then have much more trouble stuffing kids into, for example, victims studies majors that are only good for getting a job as a diversity commissar. And kids who graduate with $250,000 in debt with a diversity degree would be able to file for bankruptcy to get rid of that unsustainable debt.

Of course, right now kids simply stop paying when the debt is so high that they can't even pay the interest, much less the principal, but this is no way to run things.

[RevolverRob]

Someone call me back when there is a clue had regarding higher ed around here. I've tried and tried and tried to explain that it's more complex and that it's not a nefarious system. In fact, it's remarkably transparent and it isn't as costly as you've (general version) been led to believe.

But if you have a fucked up sense of finance that disproportionate spending on military doesn't bother you, but Planned Parenthood and Stafford Loans do, then I'm not sure you can be helped.

Yes, I AM pissed off about this. Go read, go learn, I'm not spoon feeding you bullshit, my colleagues and I aren't getting rich off your fucking tax dollars. The people getting rich on your tax dollars aren't here at the University of Chicago, they're in the Capitol Building in D.C. and they fucking laugh at all of those who have been duped into believing that "college is the problem".

My blood pressure has been sufficiently spiked.

This thread is going on ignore.

[Gadfly]

I have not read all of this thread yet, so don’t know if this was mentioned....but... I Just started listening to this book, “The Coddling if the American Mind”. The authors so far have valid points about “over protecting” our children, and thus hurting their development long term. In this book, it’s about emotional and intellectual development and coddling.

The opening premises, “Prepare the child for the road, not the road for the child.”


https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190320/39ec4bd9f608b943e1b8c0794fc34232.jpg


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[Alpha Sierra]

But if you have a fucked up sense of finance that disproportionate spending on military doesn't bother you, but Planned Parenthood and Stafford Loans do, then I'm not sure you can be helped.
Our sense of finance is just fine

You seem to have a fucked up sense of what are the national government's constitutional duties (national defense) vs what is not (abortions, lending money to people so they can go to school)

Go on and put this on ignore since it doesn't mesh with how you think the world should work.

[Joe in PNG]

I like to recommend that HS grads take a few years off before heading to college. Work, volunteer- do something different besides sitting in classes all day.

For one, digging ditches, enlisting in the military, flipping burgers, cutting line for a survey crew- there's nothing like hard work to give one true motivation to get a degree.

Another thing, there's still a bit of growing up that needs to be done. Expecting an undisciplined 18 year old kid who can't balance his budget or do her own laundry to make an expensive decision about what degree to get is a bit much. Especially if they don't yet know what to do with their lives. Most of my contemporaries in their 40 with degrees aren't using those degrees- myself included.

[Borderland]

I guess my question is why so much student loan debt (1.5 trillion)? Also why is the fed in the business of loaning money for an education past high school? Colleges shouldn't receive any money from the state or fed, they should all be run on cash as a business. If they want to go into the loan business they should get set up for that. Buy an education just like you buy a house. Payment due at registration for the school year. If you don't have the money get a job and save for enough to register. No ticky, no laundry.

Seems we have created a student debt bubble not unlike the housing debt bubble that fried or economy for about 4 years. I'm thinking that education should be like housing. Pay as you go like rent or get a bank loan at 4% and have somebody put up some collateral like real estate. Default on your loan and people loose a tangible asset.

Seems simple enough to me. Why the hell am I paying for someone else's college education?

We need trades people, not more attorneys.

[psalms144.1]

They are not under the impression he is living on campus, are they? If he has ever lived in a dorm, they may be under the impression he is still living in the dorm.

Student Life Fees (basically cafeteria, gym, etc.) should run a couple of hundred a semester at most. At UT Austin, my typical fee bill was <$350/semester. Now, I can't say about the health insurance thing. Since ObamaCare kicked in, fees associated with health care have gone up exponentially. When I was in college, I had no health insurance, but we had a not free, but heavily-subsidized student health clinic that attended to virtually all of the needs of the students. There was a fee associated with that, but it was something like $100/semester + costs if services are used.

If one lived on campus, then fees were ridiculously high. He never lived on campus, we had to fill out special forms on that during his freshman year. And, apparently, fees have increased DRAMATICALLY since you graduated...

[ralph]

I guess my question is why so much student loan debt (1.5 trillion)? Also why is the fed in the business of loaning money for an education past high school? Colleges shouldn't receive any money from the state or fed, they should all be run on cash as a business. If they want to go into the loan business they should get set up for that. Buy an education just like you buy a house. Payment due at registration for the school year. If you don't have the money get a job and save for enough to register. No ticky, no laundry.

Seems we have created a student debt bubble not unlike the housing debt bubble that fried or economy for about 4 years. I'm thinking that education should be like housing. Pay as you go like rent or get a bank loan at 4% and have somebody put up some collateral like real estate. Default on your loan and people loose a tangible asset.

Seems simple enough to me. Why the hell am I paying for someone else's college education?

We need trades people, not more attorneys.

I cannot agree with you more.. One thing that worries me that you touched on, is the amount of debt.. ( and, I've no doubt there's more money going out, than coming in) If that bubble pops like the housing market did in 2008, guess who's going to be on the hook? It's not gonna be the students because you can't get blood from a turnip, it's not gonna be the schools, and it sure as hell is'nt gonna be the gov't, Joe Taxpayer is gonna take it in the ass again.. That's something people need to start thinking about....

[Alpha Sierra]

Also why is the fed in the business of loaning money for an education past high school?
Why should they be in the business of redistributing tax dollars to fund local K-12 education? I missed where that was written in the Constitution.

I'd abolish public education entirely.

[Chance]

It is redistributed wealth -- my wealth, distributed to you, compulsorily. That's socialism.

Statements like that aren't helpful. The government taking your money away from you, dumping it into inherently dysfunctional systems and, in the process, wasting money on a spectacular scale isn't "socialism," it's "The American Government."

Further, most students aren't even aware there are options other than federal loans. When you apply to a public school and indicate you'll need financial aid, you are almost universally directed to complete the FAFSA, the Free Application for Federal Student Aid. Even if you had no interest in federal loans, you'd still be directed to complete the FAFSA, because that's the formula schools use to determine how much aid you should receive. The number comes out as your EFC - expected family contribution - which is what you're expected to pay out of pocket.

Since you have to complete the FAFSA anyways, most financial aid counselors will suggest you take the federal options available, because they're largely hassle-free. You indicate what you'll need to live, your loan is first applied to your bill from the school, and you're written a check for the rest. That also means the financial aid counselor doesn't have to do any real thinking, because they have hundreds of other students to deal with before the semester starts.

[Borderland]

Why should they be in the business of redistributing tax dollars to fund local K-12 education? I missed where that was written in the Constitution.

I'd abolish public education entirely.

I don't have a problem with paying taxes for K-12. I also support things like fire and medical emergency response. A lot of that money I get to vote on locally in referendums. I want the kids in my community to get a basic education even tho I don't have any in school. There are certain things that need to get paid for by state/local taxes and K-12 education is one of them.

I do however draw the line there. I spent 4 years in the military and worked to pay for my college education. I got out of school with zero debt. I didn't graduate until I was 27 but nobody loaned me a dime to go to college. If anyone thinks 4 years in the military and the GI bill was a gift for vets all I can say is you weren't where I was.

[JAD]

Statements like that aren't helpful. The government taking your money away from you, dumping it into inherently dysfunctional systems and, in the process, wasting money on a spectacular scale isn't "socialism," it's "The American Government." .

Fair enough.

[45dotACP]

Eh...without FAFSA I would definitely have not been able to pay for nursing school...which wasn't a losing bet to anybody because I'm a nurse and debt free...meaning I have paid off my debt to whomever gave me money and am financially beholden to not a single fucking soul.

I am kind of curious as to how college went from something my parents could afford on a part time min wage job at McDonalds to something I could not financially swing without loans.

For reference, I was making 150-200% of minimum wage in college for almost full time hours, received several thousand dollars in scholarships, possessed a high ACT score, had a GPA that was actually higher than 4.0 in high school because I took advanced placement classes, and tested out of a substantial portion of undergrad.

Dafuq?

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[Yung]

I am kind of curious as to how college went from something my parents could afford on a part time min wage job at McDonalds to something I could not financially swing without loans.


There's a short video on YouTube (PragerU) that covers it, but I'll quote the relevant part here:

"In 1980, a year of college cost $3,400. Today the average cost is more than $23,000. What's going on?

A great deal of blame lies with the government. You see, government tries to help students by providing loans and financial aid. That is a great intention. But when government helps pay for things, people tend to forget how much these things cost in the first place. Things like college tuition. Whether it's the students or the government, colleges get their money. And when the schools know that students have more money to spend, even if it's the government's money, they can raise the cost of admission."

I think that for the most part this does not contradict RevolverRob's second to last post in this thread, minus his conclusion.

For the record, I flunked out of the University of Maryland around 2005. I started using my Post-911 GI Bill in 2014 to attend community college as well as paying for additional classes out of pocket while working full-time, and finally earned an associate's degree which I unceremoniously received in the mail back in December a few months ago.

Myself and others went along with so much social conditioning about higher education as a means to more money and status, especially myself as a first-generation immigrant, that it was perhaps the one form of debt that automatically overrode the critical thinking that a young adult or his friends or parents or counselors or mentors might apply to signing up for a credit car, a car note, a mortgage, or even incurring medical bills.

To go back to the original article, Mr. Peterson's fifth rule comes to mind. "Do not let your children do anything that makes you dislike them."

In the end, not even an aging parent appreciates an overgrown child.

[Joe in PNG]

If I had my druthers, I'd make Home Ec & Consumer Math a HS freshman year requirement for all da yoots.

[revchuck38]

I am kind of curious as to how college went from something my parents could afford on a part time min wage job at McDonalds to something I could not financially swing without loans.

FWIW, my sophomore year ('70-'71) the campus of my PA state college erupted in protest because the tuition rose from $175 to $275 per semester. Since probably the majority of us were the first generation of our families to go to college and were doing it the old-fashioned way (working summers and work-study or other stuff during school with minimum use of loans), we were pissed.

[Chance]

I am kind of curious as to how college went from something my parents could afford on a part time min wage job at McDonalds to something I could not financially swing without loans.

Insisting everyone should go to college regardless of whether or not it's a good idea, and the government's subsequent approach to facilitating that, is the core of the issue. But the push towards resort-style amenities, along with stunningly incompetent management, are big pieces of the puzzle.

The bureaucracy is... disgusting, frankly. Our faculty senate is in open revolt against the administration because the senate keeps asking where exactly all the money goes, and the administration can't tell them. Literally cannot. The senate is mulling a FOIA request to force the issue.

That is absolutely stunning. And the fact that the state of Texas is allowing one of its public institutions to be run in such a manner is equally stunning.

[willie]

The thread is about what we called helicopter moms who hovered over children even into college and later. I know of many examples of such silliness. I did not know that it had become this widespread. At my school some teachers worked there for only one reason which was to accompany their kids to high school. They would resign immediately after their children graduated. I told one such mom whose kid was in my biology class that she wrote the best research paper in Bubba's class. When I was a health inspector, I would have to address complaints filed by mothers who said that chlorine levels in swimming pools burned their daughters' sensitive areas. These were moms whose daughters were in college. The same bunch would complain that apartments had not been cleaned to their satisfaction before Lulu moved in. One bitched because tampons stopped up Lulu's plumbing.

[mtnbkr]

Insisting everyone should go to college regardless of whether or not it's a good idea
Business and Industry are part of that problem by insisting on a degree for each and every job, even if it's not necessary. I've been in IT in one form or another for over 20 years. While I've had a degree the entire time, I've worked multiple roles where experience, with or without a degree, was the key enabler. I've known enough talented and productive people in IT and IT Security who lacked college degrees that when I became a hiring manager, I started removing degree requirements from job listings on roles I needed to fill. These were roles for experienced and industry-credentialed people, so a college degree would be superfluous anyway. I got some push-back from HR, but not enough that I couldn't overrule it.

My company has an actual apprentice program for IT and ITSec in the UK (company is British). People start at 18 as an apprentice and work part time while going to university part time. They end up with, if I understand the terminology correctly, with the equivalent of an associates degree, experience, and a job. If they're motivated, they can quickly rise in the ranks and be at a fairly senior position by their late 20s or early 30s. One of our former VPs here in the US started as an apprentice in the UK, a not-uncommon scenario. We need more programs like this nationwide and for every industry.

Chris

[OlongJohnson]

I'm with Rob on this one. Set my sights on getting out of the small town where I grew up when I was 11. Worked my ass off and was second in my HS class with great scores, sports, activities. Also spent my share of time with a shovel, saw and tractor's steering wheel in my hands. Got into one of the top three schools (and my first choice) for my STEM interest in the country. The social environment was exactly what I needed at that time in my life, and the transformation went far beyond what I learned in academically. Set me up for what's been a great life. Couldn't have done it without some loans. I graduated with honors in eight semesters and started working. Paid off the loans well ahead of schedule, then was able to buy a house. The game still works if you actually play it.