Balance between production division and social gun - Beretta LTT?

[Tom Fineis]

Metal frame DA/SA guns interest me more than just about anything else right now, and I have been in a serious boredom funk from shooting Glocks. I'm looking to get into a gun that is a lot of fun to shoot at the range, competitive for USPSA production, but reliable for bedside duty.

The new LTT seems ideally suited in the middle of these tasks, but I'm wondering if I'm missing something. Thoughts?

[Alpha Sierra]

Metal frame DA/SA guns interest me more than just about anything else right now, and I have been in a serious boredom funk from shooting Glocks. I'm looking to get into a gun that is a lot of fun to shoot at the range, competitive for USPSA production, but reliable for bedside duty.

The new LTT seems ideally suited in the middle of these tasks, but I'm wondering if I'm missing something. Thoughts?

You're missing any variation of CZ's 75. A basic SP-01 or SP-01 Tactical (the decocker version) can be had between $500 - $600 with a mild tune from Cajun Gun Works adding less than $100.

Or for what you'll pay for a 92 LTT you can get the current Production hotness:
https://nagelsguns.net/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/CZ-USA-Shadow_2Black-and-Blue-91257.png

In the middle of those options a used CZ Custom Shop Shadow 1 would also be cool

[Tom Fineis]

I'm not missing CZ, I currently own two and have owned several others, although many have been old guns and not representative of what's possible these days. My interpretation is that they are probably a better competition gun at the cost of parts breakage and ammo pickiness. If anything I'd like to lean more toward reliability than competition use.

This forum has always been a unique mix of self defense and performance shooting types which is why I specifically asked here. I haven't trained with Ernest but he strikes me as having that mentality as well.

[Alpha Sierra]

My interpretation is that they are probably a better competition gun at the cost of parts breakage and ammo pickiness.
That's fine. Experiences differ. The two I have are dead nuts reliable and don't care what ammo I feed them. I wouldn't have an issue betting my life on either of them and one of them is the one that is with me almost 24/7

[Tom Fineis]

What model(s) are you shooting?

I just picked up a P09 with CGW springs (factory hammer) and it will do everything I *need*, but the DA trigger is heavier than expected and I'm already getting a few light strikes with harder primer ammo (S&B).

[JSGlock34]

When I got in a Glock shooting rut, I turned to the Beretta 92 series. I think the LTT Elite 92 is a great pistol. I've only shot one match with it (I usually shoot a G34 in Production), but I think it straddles the divide between practical and competition quite well. If you order one, get the action tune.

It is possible to get a deal right now at Langdon Tactical with the St. Patrick's Day promotion they are running...

[Alpha Sierra]

What model(s) are you shooting?

I just picked up a P09 with CGW springs (factory hammer) and it will do everything I *need*, but the DA trigger is heavier than expected and I'm already getting a few light strikes with harder primer ammo (S&B).

75BD and P-01. I had a P-07 that used to be my carry pistol but stock to stock, its trigger (in both modes) left some to be desired compared to the metal framed pistols. It got traded straight across for the P-01 that I carry. The 75BD is my range/training/USPSA pistol. Both of them have the CGW 54420 Ultra Lite kit (I use the 13 lb blue hammer spring) and the 75 got some extra polishing love from me. The 75 has a 7.5 DA and a decent 3 lb SA pull. The P-01 trigger is 4 - 6 oz heavier.

I also think the P-07/P-09 grip geometry is CZ's biggest mistake ever. The 75/SP-01/P-01 grip with LOK palm swells is perfection.

[Clusterfrack]

I have 3 Shadow2s and 2 P-07s with about 45000 rounds through them. They are the best, most reliable guns I have ever owned. The P-07s are for carry and HD, but I would absolutely trust a Shadow2 in that role. Maybe even more so. Just too heavy to carry.

If you’re getting light strikes in your P09, somethings wrong. Are you using a light hammer spring?

And I love the grip angle on the P-07.

[Willard]

The P-07s are for carry and HD.

What mods have you done to your P-07? I'm understanding there are some good modifications that can be made to this platform, but others may compromise reliability. Thanks.

[Alpha Sierra]

others may compromise reliability. Thanks.

The only mod that does so are going stupid light on the hammer spring.

[Alpha Sierra]

And I love the grip angle on the P-07.

Yep, we're all different. I do want to find an SP-01 Phantom to hold. If it feels like the regular SP-01, I'll probably pick one up.

[Willard]

The only mod that does so are going stupid light on the hammer spring.

I'd read something about a trigger issue also...can't remember if it was a different trigger pin or what.

[Cory]

I carry a Langdon M9, and have an LTT Elite with LIHTJ (Langdon In House Trigger Job. Do we have an acronym for that?) for USPSA. I've only been to a single match.

I think it's a good set up for me. Carry gun and comp gun are identical manual of arms. Slightly different sights, and triggers.

Beretta suits me. I think CZs are a great option as well. They give you good options for carry and competition. They might even be better with their polymer options.

-Cory

[GJM]

What model(s) are you shooting?

I just picked up a P09 with CGW springs (factory hammer) and it will do everything I *need*, but the DA trigger is heavier than expected and I'm already getting a few light strikes with harder primer ammo (S&B).

Hate to bring this up, but are your light strikes in DA?

[Alpha Sierra]

I'd read something about a trigger issue also...can't remember if it was a different trigger pin or what.

The OEM trigger return spring used to be a weak point. CZ re-engineered the spring's material and heat treatment specs to fix the issue a few years back but I don't know when change was cut-in.

A call to CZ Custom in Mesa should get you an answer. If you buy a new one it's a non issue. If you buy a used one you can get the upgraded TRS from CZ Custom or a slightly lighter aftermarket TRS from Cajun Gun Works. Either one prevents the premature breakeage.

[Tom Fineis]

Hate to bring this up, but are your light strikes in DA?

Yes, and I read through your experiences with the P09 today, but both of mine had very solid primer strikes on the ammo. I understand S&B primers to be very hard, so I think it's just a poor match for this gun. I will try some different ammo but that is what I had on hand. It has a 15lb CGW spring in it.

[Medusa]

I must’ve effed something up with that discount because I got a 10% off but then it wouldn’t let me check out with an np3 tj spartan elite. I’ll live, of course, first world problems, but I’d have gone with it right then instead of waiting to see re the 92x variants.



When I got in a Glock shooting rut, I turned to the Beretta 92 series. I think the LTT Elite 92 is a great pistol. I've only shot one match with it (I usually shoot a G34 in Production), but I think it straddles the divide between practical and competition quite well. If you order one, get the action tune.

It is possible to get a deal right now at Langdon Tactical with the St. Patrick's Day promotion they are running...

[Alpha Sierra]

Yes, and I read through your experiences with the P09 today, but both of mine had very solid primer strikes on the ammo. I understand S&B primers to be very hard, so I think it's just a poor match for this gun. I will try some different ammo but that is what I had on hand. It has a 15lb CGW spring in it.

What would happen if you put the OEM hammer spring back in and fed it some S&B?

[JSGlock34]

I must’ve effed something up with that discount because I got a 10% off but then it wouldn’t let me check out with an np3 tj spartan elite. I’ll live, of course, first world problems, but I’d have gone with it right then instead of waiting to see re the 92x variants.

Give Aimee a call at Langdon Tactical - I'm sure she'll sort you out.

[Tom Fineis]

What would happen if you put the OEM hammer spring back in and fed it some S&B?

I have 10k of S&B sitting here, so I'm fixin' to find out. I took the gun down for cleaning tonight and the firing pin looked short compared to what I am used to. I bought it used and it's supposed to have an extended in it. I wonder if it's the factory pin, or a broken extended pin. Round count doesn't look nearly high enough to be a broken pin. I'll tear it down to find out this week.

[YVK]

The new LTT seems ideally suited in the middle of these tasks,


I think so. Favorite gun web boards question of "if you only could own one..." would've been a toss up between LTT and some sort of Glock for me, but you're already bored shooting Glocks. I love metal CZs and that's what I mostly shoot, but 40 to 47 oz, when empty, guns don't fit into "other than games" category for me, especially the ones that require manual decocking.

[Clusterfrack]

What mods have you done to your P-07? I'm understanding there are some good modifications that can be made to this platform, but others may compromise reliability. Thanks.

P-07#1
CGW Prograde kit w/15# mainspring
0.020” heavy sear spring
0.220” roller (OEM was 0.2155”)
Tool steel hammer pin
CGW tool steel sear pin
SS guiderod w/15# flat wire recoil spring
Tractiongrips griptape
Night Fision sights

P-07#2: mostly OEM
CGW trigger return spring
0.020” heavy sear spring
CGW/Dawson night sights

With lots of dryfire and good lubrication, the two guns are very similar.

Running a reduced hammer spring with the stock firing pin can lead to light strikes.

[Alpha Sierra]

I have 10k of S&B sitting here, so I'm fixin' to find out. I took the gun down for cleaning tonight and the firing pin looked short compared to what I am used to. I bought it used and it's supposed to have an extended in it. I wonder if it's the factory pin, or a broken extended pin. Round count doesn't look nearly high enough to be a broken pin. I'll tear it down to find out this week.

Hmmm the way CGW sells its kits it seems that an extended FP and lighter FP spring are always paired with lighter hammer springs. Be interesting to see what you find out.

[ralph]

I have 10k of S&B sitting here, so I'm fixin' to find out. I took the gun down for cleaning tonight and the firing pin looked short compared to what I am used to. I bought it used and it's supposed to have an extended in it. I wonder if it's the factory pin, or a broken extended pin. Round count doesn't look nearly high enough to be a broken pin. I'll tear it down to find out this week.

Based on the fact that it's a used gun and you're not sure what firing pin is in it, I'd just start over, and buy an extended firing pin from CGW, and install that. I don't know how much experience you have with CZ's, but anytime you start running a lighter hammer spring you should also run a extended firing pin, these parts work together, Otherwise, you're begging for light strikes..

On my P07, I'm running a extended firing pin,&spring reduced power firing pin block spring, trigger return spring, and a #15 hammer spring, everything else is stock, and I've had no issues..

[Clusterfrack]

What ralph said. And I would inspect it carefully for Bubba gunsmithing. Is there evidence of grinding on the sear or hammer? Polishing of trigger bar? Bending of trigger bar spring? Fortunately all the parts are readily available and Glock-cheap.

These mods are not needed, and I wouldn't want them on my gun--especially for a self defense pistol, and done by Somedude. Here's a link (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?31326-Suggestions-for-replacement-carry-piece&p=744301&viewfull=1#post744301) to what I did to break in my mostly-OEM P-07.

[Alpha Sierra]

For GJM P-09:
https://cajungunworks.com/product/spgk79-yellow-self-defense-hammer-spring/
https://cajungunworks.com/product/61050-perfection-series-firing/

Peace of mind for $50

[Tom Fineis]

Based on the fact that it's a used gun and you're not sure what firing pin is in it, I'd just start over, and buy an extended firing pin from CGW, and install that. I don't know how much experience you have with CZ's, but anytime you start running a lighter hammer spring you should also run a extended firing pin, these parts work together, Otherwise, you're begging for light strikes..

On my P07, I'm running a extended firing pin,&spring reduced power firing pin block spring, trigger return spring, and a #15 hammer spring, everything else is stock, and I've had no issues..

The gun came from a good buddy (who is a M class Prod shooter) and has all the spare parts/springs, it's just a matter of figuring out what is actually IN the gun, because he said he was doing some swapping around experimenting with combos and doesn't remember where he landed. All of the CGW bags have what I believe to be all the factory pins and springs, I just need to compare them to what's inside.

[ralph]

Just wanted to make a correction..on my P07 I'm running the #18 hammer spring...just looked up the mag well to comfirm, it's the yellow spring... sorry for any confusion..

[ralph]

The gun came from a good buddy (who is a M class Prod shooter) and has all the spare parts/springs, it's just a matter of figuring out what is actually IN the gun, because he said he was doing some swapping around experimenting with combos and doesn't remember where he landed. All of the CGW bags have what I believe to be all the factory pins and springs, I just need to compare them to what's inside.

Hmmm, I hate to say this, but if it was me, I'd pull everything out that he did, and start over with new parts, this way you know exactly what you have..for example, comparing trigger return springs,, the CGW spring will look almost exactly like the stock spring..how do you tell them apart? Luckily, parts aren't that expensive..The little bit of money spent will be well worth the peace of mind..

[Alpha Sierra]

Hmmm, I hate to say this, but if it was me, I'd pull everything out that he did, and start over with new parts, this way you know exactly what you have..for example, comparing trigger return springs,, the CGW spring will look almost exactly like the stock spring..how do you tell them apart? Luckily, parts aren't that expensive..The little bit of money spent will be well worth the peace of mind..

I'm gonna agree with this. It's one thing to trouble shoot a pistol you know what went on with, it's quite another to figure out what someone else did. You're 100% correct that often there's no way to visually tell what's what.

[Tom Fineis]

Well this kind of veered into a P09 diagnostic thread and I do appreciate the input there.

However I've been doing more reading on the Elite LTT and the Centurion 92's in general, and I think I'm gonna pick one up soon. I'll continue to futz with the P09 to get back in the DA/SA game while I wait for the 92. Thanks gents.