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0ddl0t
03-17-2019, 05:05 PM
My understanding from reading the 2017 rules is that the semiautomatic BUG class has a division capacity of 6, but it does not allow 1 extra in the chamber. My local IDPA match says the BUG class has a division capacity of 5+1.

In many stages, the difference is significant (when/where & how many reloads necessary). So is there a newer rule book? Or am I misinterpreting it? Or is my local group just behind the times?

And why on earth is BUG-s the only division that doesn't allow +1?





8.1.4 Division Capacity
SSP, ESP, SPD............. 10 rounds
CDP, CCP.................... 8 rounds
REV, BUG-S................ 6 rounds
BUG-R........................ 5 rounds total
In all semi-auto divisions except BUG-S, the shooter will also start with one additional round in the chamber, unless the stage description requires otherwise.

taadski
03-17-2019, 05:31 PM
Rule 8.2.7 from the 2017 rulebook:

Bug-S (semi-auto) starts with 5 + 1 in the chamber. Bug-R (revolver, read J-frame and the like) starts with 5 rounds in the cylinder.

Duces Tecum
03-17-2019, 05:35 PM
In any given match, assuming all competitors are burdened by the same interpretation of the same rule, I'm not sure where the issue lies? :)

Alpha Sierra
03-17-2019, 05:53 PM
In any given match, assuming all competitors are burdened by the same interpretation of the same rule, I'm not sure where the issue lies? :)

The issue lies in the never ending problem of IDPA SOs and MDs using the rulebook as a suggestion rather than what it is: a requirement. A big reason why I let my membership lapse and why I doubt I'll ever renew it.

USPSA wins, again.

Peally
03-17-2019, 06:14 PM
In any given match, assuming all competitors are burdened by the same interpretation of the same rule, I'm not sure where the issue lies? :)

When you pay to show up at a sanctioned match you expect them to follow the rules. Arbitrary modifications, even if evenly applied, are good reason for me not to return.

FNFAN
03-17-2019, 06:37 PM
I've never had a match director fail to correct a variation away from the rulebook or had the issue recur once corrected. I did see much gnashing of teeth on the part of stage safety officers when their ability to call 'cover' violations went away with the advent of fault lines. It was sublime!;)

taadski
03-17-2019, 07:59 PM
The issue lies in the never ending problem of IDPA SOs and MDs using the rulebook as a suggestion rather than what it is: a requirement. A big reason why I let my membership lapse and why I doubt I'll ever renew it.

USPSA wins, again.

Meh, Just a different game. Sounds like you should explore some other clubs perhaps. Having shot a lot of both sports in a bunch of different states, I’ve not witnessed MDs not following the rules as written. What I have seen occasionally is some confusion amongst volunteer SOs due to the repeated rule changes. I think the recent rule changes have been in the right direction though (with the possible exception of the 1 second/point one).

Alpha Sierra
03-17-2019, 08:03 PM
Meh, Just a different game. Sounds like you should explore some other clubs perhaps. Having shot a lot of both sports in a bunch of different states, I’ve not witnessed MDs not following the rules as written. What I have seen occasionally is some confusion amongst volunteer SOs due to the repeated rule changes. I think the recent rule changes have been in the right direction though (with the possible exception of the 1 second/point one).

I'll let you know next weekend with an IDPA match on Saturday, when temps will finally be spring like in the 50s.

I was going to do my first USPSA match of the season today but the forecast changed during the week and I wasn't gonna spend 4 hours in the snow with temps in the mid 30s.

0ddl0t
03-17-2019, 08:32 PM
In any given match, assuming all competitors are burdened by the same interpretation of the same rule, I'm not sure where the issue lies? :)

These are small matches where the BUG class typically has only 1 or 2 entrants and a large part of the fun of competition (for me) is trying to see how my results stack up with the fast guys without feeling like I have an insurmountable disadvantage.

The most frequent round count on these stages is 12 (common permutations: 6 targets shot twice, 4 targets shot 3 times, 2 targets shot 3 times + 3 targets shot twice, etc) which I believe should give everyone with a semi-auto 1 reload. Under their rules, 12 rounds requires 2 reloads which really blows up my stage time.

I could shoot in SSP, but over the course of an entire match there are enough hurdles for a small gun that I just can't hope to overcome. CCP doesn't ever get any entrants.

taadski
03-17-2019, 08:37 PM
I wasn't gonna spend 4 hours in the snow with temps in the mid 30s.


Where's your sense of adventure?! :)

We've been up to our nuts in snow this year. We'll just say I've been making good use of my Brass Mat. I've been making a local IDPA match or two each month but I just shot my first USPSA match since late fall yesterday. It was nice to get out and the weather was sunny and in the 40s midday (a couple hours north of here). Shot a new pistol in a new division for kicks. :cool: Good fun.

1911Nut
03-17-2019, 08:37 PM
I suppose I should consider myself blessed. As stated previously when discussing IDPA competition on this forum, I regularly compete in IDPA matches at two clubs and occasionally with a third and fourth club.

I have had occasion to witness confusion or misunderstanding of IDPA rules during matches. Also, in almost every case, these misunderstandings and this confusion is hashed out with the shooters BEFORE a course of fire begins. (I'm not insinuating this is a PERFECT system, or that mistakes are not sometimes made).

In my experience, when the "cover" calls were eliminated from IDPA rules, there was virtually 100% HAPPINESS from competitors and RO's. Perhaps I have just been fortunate, but I have yet to observe, witness, or deal with a RO at the matches that I attend that bemoaned the fact that he/she could no longer call a "cover" reminder or violation on a competitor. Everyone disliked the rule and everyone was glad to see it go away. (Either that, or they did a good job of hiding their feelings and certainly refrained from gnashing their teeth).

I cannot speak to why things are the way they are as depicted at the club mentioned by the OP.

All I can do is put forth with strong confidence, that if the rule being enforced at the clubs I shoot with is incorrect according to the official IDPA rules, the issue has a 99% + chance of being resolved BEFORE the match shooting begins.

I'm not going to beat this horse any longer, but in my experience, almost all the issues I have encountered with club rules or organizational rules (IDPA, USPSA, etc.) can and have been resolved with an intelligent, adult approach to problem solving. I personally hate to see anyone publicly berate ANY shooting sport publicly because it's different from what they are used to or what they personally prefer.

Shooters have enough enemies without making new ones among themselves. Fortunately, I have yet to have anyone from ANY shooting organization FORCE me to pay dues or entry fees, join their club, or participate in their matches. Freedom of choice is a good thing.

revchuck38
03-17-2019, 08:43 PM
0ddl0t - I feel your pain. I shot SSR for 5-6 years and had to deal with non-revolver-neutral stages. I just dealt with it.

I want to shoot my P99C in a match, but it'll be in SSP when I do. When I carry it it's loaded 10+1, might as well shoot it that way.

taadski
03-17-2019, 08:45 PM
I personally hate to see anyone publicly berate ANY shooting sport publicly because it's different from what they are used to or what they personally prefer. Shooters have enough enemies without making new ones among themselves.


F'n A right.

JAD
03-17-2019, 10:30 PM
I liked that IDPA enforced cover, but man was it tough to call for fast guys at a national match. The original IDPA rules were very much buddy rules — the kind of thing you could get away with at a like-minded training group but a real bear when people are playing for more than the first round of beer after the match.

I /loved/ that it had one division for single stack 1911s and one for completely box stock wondernines. That shit was /elegant/.