View Full Version : Pistol for a sister for ccw HELP!!
The search continues. Last time we went to the range she shot the HK P30 LEM, LCR, Kahr P9 and the Beretta PX4 sk.
She Liked and shot the Beretta best.
Today she shot the PPS, Nano, Glock 19 and 26, and again the Beretta PX4. She liked and shot the Glock 19 the best.
Then the friggin gun store clerks got her started on a 380, explaining to her how the 380 in a scuffle would do everything she needed to do all the way out to 15 yards. told her how a pelvic shot at point blank range would stop the assailant from walking. grrrrr. I think they had both just started shaving last week and I am pretty damn sure neither one of them has heard the whistle of a close miss or seen people shot or die. Sometimes my patience is nothing short of amazing. I do recall making the comment at one point that a 380 was better than a sharp stick.
Anyway I need some input from the female members or from instructors who deal with women and ccw. She wants to CCW but doesnt think she can hide the Glock 19.
I told her that I thought she would eventually end up with 2 pistols. One Nano sized and one 19 sized.
Thoughts input concerns experiences whatever would help.
I have zero experience with women who ccw.
Al T.
03-17-2012, 11:08 AM
friggin gun store clerks
I have zero problems being ugly, rude and brutal with a clerk who is a mouth breather. :mad:
Take a look at www.corneredcat.com for some good advice on ladies and concealment strategies.
I have zero problems being ugly, rude and brutal with a clerk who is a mouth breather. :mad:
Take a look at www.corneredcat.com for some good advice on ladies and concealment strategies.
I should have informed them that the three nine thousand magnum was the true best choice for ccw.
Prdator
03-17-2012, 11:22 AM
The handgun that I recommend to females the most is the M&P 9mm. Let her pick the model size for her application, like my wife trains with the full size and carry's the compact.
The small grip typical works the best.
But your on the right track let Her chose!!!
Not a female and not a paid instructor but I have an adamant not all that humble opinion regarding this. I offer it to my wife, to our female friends who have licenses to CCW here. None of them are willing to complete change their style to dress around a gun as I would. If they want to start carrying, I think they should pick something compact enough that they'll really carry it for obvious damn reasons. In this context - first gun should be the one they'll really carry consistently right away. TOP priority it to have it handy and be able to shoot a crawler off of them from 5-7 yards and CLOSER vs a gun they can shoot a sub 10 sec El Pres with. Your point that she'll eventually really want two as you described is brilliant on several levels.
David Armstrong
03-17-2012, 12:27 PM
I've been doing CCW courses with women for a few decades, and if there is one over-riding thing I have learned from that it is to let them pick a gun and caliber THEY like. If they don't like it they are less likely to practice with it and less likely to carry it. Caliber really doesn't play that big a part in solving most DGU events, and if the choice is a gun/caliber combination I like and she won't carry versus a gun/caliber combination I don't like and she will carry, I'll go with the latter every time (assuming adequate reliability).
She wants to CCW but doesnt think she can hide the Glock 19.
I should have been more clear. She wants to CCW on body and doesn't have a problem dressing around it.
The handgun that I recommend to females the most is the M&P 9mm.
We haven't shot it because of the accuracy issues I have read about here. Seems like too much of a crap shoot.
I've been doing CCW courses with women for a few decades, and if there is one over-riding thing I have learned from that it is to let them pick a gun and caliber THEY like.
She liked the Glock 19 best.
In this context - first gun should be the one they'll really carry consistently right away. TOP priority it to have it handy and be able to shoot a crawler off of them from 5-7 yards and CLOSER vs a gun they can shoot a sub 10 sec El Pres with. Your point that she'll eventually really want two as you described is brilliant on several levels.
I hear that all the time. You are correct, excellent points. I told her today she is going to have to take some classes and she is not going to want to take a class with a nano. The first gun needs to be an all around gun with specialty "ie: tiny" gun to follow. I have also learned that my extreme disdain for shopping does not extend to gun stores and other peoples money. :D
My thoughts at this moment are to have her go back and shoot the Glock 19 against the HK P30LEM. If she chooses the HK then I am going to recommend the P2000 sk LEM. If the Glock wins then it will have to be the 19 because the 26 pinched her finger. I am at the point right now that I think the smaller guns will take a good bit of additional training to get her accurate and she is accurate right now with the glock 19.
The question remains how the heck is she going to carry the pistol? I mean who makes a holster designed for women for a HK P2000sk or a Glock 19?
Al T.
03-17-2012, 02:19 PM
http://www.corneredcat.com/Concealed_Carry_for_the_Fashionable_Woman/
http://www.corneredcat.com/Straight_Talk_About_Curves/ (holster links)
http://www.corneredcat.com/Concealed_Carry_for_the_Fashionable_Woman/
http://www.corneredcat.com/Straight_Talk_About_Curves/ (holster links)
I didn't realize crusty old Army retiree's could be so helpful concerning women's fashions ;) Thanks buddy, I'll pass it along. good info.
jetfire
03-17-2012, 02:52 PM
More advice on concealed carry for women from an actual woman (http://gunnuts.net/?s=concealed+carry+fashion+report)!
Shelley (the author of those posts) is 5'3 and weighs a scrap over 100lbs, and she can conceal a full size M&P 9mm. The Glock 19 shouldn't be a problem for your wife.
NETim
03-17-2012, 02:59 PM
I didn't realize crusty old Army retiree's could be so helpful concerning women's fashions ;) Thanks buddy, I'll pass it along. good info.
Well it is the new Army after all. :)
More advice on concealed carry for women from an actual woman (http://gunnuts.net/?s=concealed+carry+fashion+report)!
Shelley (the author of those posts) is 5'3 and weighs a scrap over 100lbs, and she can conceal a full size M&P 9mm. The Glock 19 shouldn't be a problem for your wife.
Thx. Info forwarded. Look just because I am from KY no reason to call my sister my wife. :eek:
jetfire
03-17-2012, 03:14 PM
Sorry, I don't read very well. I went to school in Southern California in the 90s, it's not my fault. :D
Well it is the new Army after all. :)
I think he is OLD Army not new Army. If there is a knock on the door in the next few hours I wouldn't answer it if I were you.
Al T.
03-17-2012, 04:41 PM
LOL. :D
I got a foot in both camps. Enlisted in 1976, retired in 2011. Went from cotton fatigues and khakis to ACUs and polyester.
Kathy Jackson (owner of "corneredcat") is Caleb's issue. She's an "actual woman", is a member here and lives in the PNW. :eek:
jetfire
03-17-2012, 04:52 PM
I've worked with Kathy on many occasions, and her advice is generally excellent. It does tend to be targeted towards an...older demographic, which is I linked to Shelley's Concealed Carry Fashion reports as they're probably a bit more useful for a woman looking to stay fashionable and carry on body.
Al T.
03-17-2012, 05:02 PM
Keep digging, LOL..... :p
NETim
03-17-2012, 05:08 PM
I think he is OLD Army not new Army. If there is a knock on the door in the next few hours I wouldn't answer it if I were you.
I'm not worried. We have attack cats. They are very fierce when they're awake.
Sparks2112
03-17-2012, 06:47 PM
I have zero problems being ugly, rude and brutal with a clerk who is a mouth breather. :mad:
Take a look at www.corneredcat.com for some good advice on ladies and concealment strategies.
Hey, we aren't all bad. I've never once sold a .380 to anybody who didn't twist my arm first.
I'd say the Glock 19 if she was willing to dress around it.. but like someone mentioned earlier generally they are not willing to.
woman wear tighter clothes than most men*
jeans are low and tight, to show off assets :cool:
shirts are tight and short
consider a pocket pistol? something she could hide with ease, and actually carry consistently.
Hey, we aren't all bad. I've never once sold a .380 to anybody who didn't twist my arm first.
I have known a few who really knew their stuff. Most are guys working part time. One guy today tried to tell me that the P2000 was the subcompact gun.
Like I said I have lots of patience....sometimes :eek:
Al T.
03-18-2012, 08:08 AM
Hey, we aren't all bad. I've never once sold a .380 to anybody who didn't twist my arm first.
When I worked P/T at a LGS, I only offered advice if asked. After all, I was getting paid to move product. If someone wanted a .22 for elephant hunting, my only question was "what's your budget?". :p
Interesting "factoid" about most .380s - they have a sharper recoil and are harder to manipulate than a 9mm (blowback vrs. locked breech).
Brian, buddy of mine just got his GF a Kahr K9. She is a fairly petite lady and enjoyed shooting the K9. Here is where he got the K9:
http://www.aimsurplus.com/product.aspx?item=F1KAHRK9&name=KAHR+Arms+K9+SS+9mm+Pistol&groupid=3
When I worked P/T at a LGS, I only offered advice if asked. After all, I was getting paid to move product. If someone wanted a .22 for elephant hunting, my only question was "what's your budget?". :p
Interesting "factoid" about most .380s - they have a sharper recoil and are harder to manipulate than a 9mm (blowback vrs. locked breech).
Brian, buddy of mine just got his GF a Kahr K9. She is a fairly petite lady and enjoyed shooting the K9. Here is where he got the K9:
http://www.aimsurplus.com/product.aspx?item=F1KAHRK9&name=KAHR+Arms+K9+SS+9mm+Pistol&groupid=3
Her exact words when shooting the Glock 19 were " The bullets are going exactly where I am aiming." I think what we will do this saturday is to try the P30LEM against the 19. I am hoping she likes the P30 better.
I have called every rental range within 2 hours and I cannot find a P2000LEM SK 9mm anywhere. I just re read the problems with the glocks and I thought they had been fixed. We may go straight to p2000. As I told her she has to take classes, I said at least 1000 rounds this summer. Next year could be the year for a small gun. After she has learned to shoot.
I have a P9 and while it is a great small gun I don't think it is near as easy to shoot as the glock or LEM. That is a great price though.
Wendell
03-18-2012, 04:51 PM
...I need some input from the female members or from instructors who deal with women and ccw. She wants to CCW but doesnt think she can hide the Glock 19...
Concealed Carry Holsters & Outfits for Women (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogGBPVk5GQk)
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogGBPVk5GQk>
Holster Talk Part 1 (of 4)
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6id83qgQVic)<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6id83qgQVic>
jetfire
03-18-2012, 05:52 PM
Which reminds me that www.packingpretty.com is a pretty good resource as well.
Hey, we aren't all bad. I've never once sold a .380 to anybody who didn't twist my arm first.
You know that's right. It's like trying to make chocolate milk with turds to try and suggest to a lady that the airweight snub or pink Ruger LCP that her bf/husband/father/brother said was a "woman's gun" may not be the best choice.
"But it says Ladysmith right there on the frame!"
OK the field is now down to HK. It's either P2000sk or USP Compact. It will be LEM in 9mm. Wish they had the P30 in a compact.
Anyway Any recommendations or dislikes about either of these two would be much appreciated.
F-Trooper05
03-19-2012, 09:11 PM
OK the field is now down to HK. It's either P2000sk or USP Compact. It will be LEM in 9mm. Wish they had the P30 in a compact.
Anyway Any recommendations or dislikes about either of these two would be much appreciated.
The P30 and USPc are almost exactly the same size, FYI.
The P30 and USPc are almost exactly the same size, FYI.
OK thanks. And I just read the usp doesn't have interchangeable backstraps either.
We are closing in and almost ready to purchase. My sister is a part owner in a restaurant which a lot of cops go to so she has had an endless supply of advice.
The last cop advised her to get something with a safety because, "Hey have you ever looked in a womans purse? " Then he told her how many women had discharges through their purses. Needless to say she was very concerned. :rolleyes:
Anyway my favorite story was when she decided to have a little fun with a male and female officer team that come in together all the time.
I told her to tell them that she had decided on the HK P30 V4 LEM model in 9mm for a carry gun. Then for a house gun that she was going to get a 9mm AR and that I was going to make her a full auto sear and a silencer. Well that wasn't enough so she decided to embellish the story a little more. She told them she had a problem with squirrels chewing their way into the attic so so was going to sit in the backyard with the AR and shoot them out of the trees.
well needless to say there were two very concerned officers of the law in front of her. The female cop said "you can't do that, they have to come down somewhere and someone will get hurt." My sister looked at her straight faced and said, "I have never heard of anyone hurt by falling squirrels". To which the female cop replied "No...the bullets!!!" My sister again straight faced said "Oh...the bullets will be in the squirrels, won't they?"
That was pretty much the end of that conversation. And not a mention of the homemade sear or silencer. :) She did tell them before they left. ROFLMAO wish I could have been there to see it.
DocGKR
03-25-2012, 09:14 PM
If she shot the G19 best, I'd recommend she gets a used 3rd gen G19, perhaps with a grip reduction. The HK will be OK as well. The key thing, no matter what she gets, is to ensure proper training and adequate follow-up practice.
If she shot the G19 best, I'd recommend she gets a used 3rd gen G19, perhaps with a grip reduction. The HK will be OK as well. The key thing, no matter what she gets, is to ensure proper training and adequate follow-up practice.
Thats what she shot at the rental range. The cases were going everywhere. One landed on top of her head. If she buys a gun and it won't perform it will be MY fault. So at this point in time HK Wins.
.
Al T.
03-25-2012, 09:28 PM
Doc makes his usual excellent points. Which is the reason I purchased G19s for my niece and nephew years before they can legally own them. :D
JeffJ
03-26-2012, 09:58 AM
Thats what she shot at the rental range. The cases were going everywhere. One landed on top of her head. If she buys a gun and it won't perform it will be MY fault. So at this point in time HK Wins.
.
The white sound HRED has done wonders for the ejection pattern with my Gen 4 19 - a little hotter ammo helps too - My carry ammo HST 124gr +p make a nice little pile of brass, cheap stuff or light reloads tend to be more erratic, but much, much better with HRED.
If she really likes the G19, I'd stick with it - most of them run really well, if it doesn't run, deal with it and either send it back to Glock or dump it and get another one -- It sounds like you really like HK - and I don't blame you - but shooting a G19 is kind of a different animal than shooting a DA/SA or LEM
Tamara
03-26-2012, 01:12 PM
The last cop advised her to get something with a safety because, "Hey have you ever looked in a womans purse? " Then he told her how many women had discharges through their purses. Needless to say she was very concerned. :rolleyes:
The second carry purse I ever bought (and one of the best I've had to this day) didn't have all that velcro and holster stuff you usually see in the gun compartment, just an elasticized loop to retain the muzzle end. The only thing separating the pistol compartment from the main cargo compartment of the purse was layer of fairly supple leather. Call me crazy, but I always felt a lot better about carrying a SIG P-228 in there than I did a G23.
The second carry purse I ever bought (and one of the best I've had to this day) didn't have all that velcro and holster stuff you usually see in the gun compartment, just an elasticized loop to retain the muzzle end. The only thing separating the pistol compartment from the main cargo compartment of the purse was layer of fairly supple leather. Call me crazy, but I always felt a lot better about carrying a SIG P-228 in there than I did a G23.
I interpreted the conversation to mean women were using purses with the gun just thrown in the purse along with all the other junk. Not necessarily a pistol specific purse. My sister is following this thread so any input as to purses would be appreciated.
If she buys a gun and it won't perform it will be MY fault. So at this point in time HK Wins.
.
Man, that sure cuts me off at the knees. There are guns that are slimmer than the hks, and as easy (kahr k9, walther pps) or easier (springer emp 9) to shoot; and if a little tinkering or the willingness to gunshow a lemon (kahr) was ok, they might be worth thinking about. But if the first double feed is all on you? P30 it is (don't let her see a p7).
Man, that sure cuts me off at the knees. There are guns that are slimmer than the hks, and as easy (kahr k9, walther pps) or easier (springer emp 9) to shoot; and if a little tinkering or the willingness to gunshow a lemon (kahr) was ok, they might be worth thinking about. But if the first double feed is all on you? P30 it is (don't let her see a p7).
I really want to thank you and everybody else for the help here. It was never my intention to cut anybody off, It is just kind of an evolving fluid situation and believe me the input is coming from her, after she has read many post on this forum and elsewhere. The main thing is she isn't a gun person, she has zero desire to deal with any problems from a firearm, she just wants to take some shooting lessons, take her ccw class and move on with life. we will be shooting the P30 LEM against the Glock 19 this weekend. It will be interesting to see the results. They do have a P7 in the rental case..... :)
We took our last range trip yesterday. She shot the Glock 19 Gen three against the P30 LEM. Glock 19 wins for ability to shoot well. At 5-7 yards a lot of her shots were touching and on one target she had a ragged quarter sized hole. So What do I look for to identify a pre ejector/extractor problem gun?
The gen 4's are still problematic right? Anybody got a pre ejector/extractor problem gun for sale?
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